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View Poll Results: Do you do something for our Earth
Yes 50 51.55%
No 17 17.53%
I don't care 30 30.93%
Voters: 97. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2009-06-25, 12:04   Link #41
Let'sFightingLove
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Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
And I suggest you also do a little research on how the planet can still be saved.

Who's talking about fixing, we're talking about making up for damages.

There are lots of upcoming green technologies that are much more energy efficient, reliable and produce significantly less to no pollution. If people want to make money, they can make money off these technologies as well.

And what's wrong with control? Is control only bad and nothing else? If we can set up controls to preserve environments and save species, is that a bad thing?

There lots of people harming the environment, lots of people who just fill their pockets with cash. But there's also lots of people who are actively trying to save the environment. And what about those who don't care? They're just selfish, if not ignorant.
Nature can sustain itself. Nothing good comes out of 3rd party interference.

Humans, as evolved animals, are inherently selfish, it's simply a byproduct of genetics. We must thrive to reproduce, which in the greater scheme of things, is our ultimate purpose.

This paired alongside with the juxtaposition predisposition intellect we humans harbor allows us to rationalize to our merit, meaning, we decide what would be to our benefit and act on it accordingly.

It matters not what fabricated self-righteousness you abide by in this life, we're evolved from shit throwing apes that don't like to share their bananas.

Last edited by Let'sFightingLove; 2009-06-25 at 12:17.
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Old 2009-06-25, 12:10   Link #42
Vexx
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The phraseology is odd here.... we're not "saving the planet", the planet is what it is. What we're trying to do is stabilize the current ecosystem and weather system we're USED TO HAVING so that WE don't poop-in-our-own-sandbox.

We're the only animal smart enough to realize we can ruin the aquarium badly enough to cause a general collapse -- the question is can we get a sufficient amount of the population to reign in individual greed and selfishness and cooperate with the "rest of our tribe" for a win-win scenario? ..... I suspect it'll take a big tipping point catastrophe before the human race "gets it" --- hope we survive that one :P
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Old 2009-06-25, 12:22   Link #43
Let'sFightingLove
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
The phraseology is odd here.... we're not "saving the planet", the planet is what it is. What we're trying to do is stabilize the current ecosystem and weather system we're USED TO HAVING so that WE don't poop-in-our-own-sandbox.

We're the only animal smart enough to realize we can ruin the aquarium badly enough to cause a general collapse -- the question is can we get a sufficient amount of the population to reign in individual greed and selfishness and cooperate with the "rest of our tribe" for a win-win scenario? ..... I suspect it'll take a big tipping point catastrophe before the human race "gets it" --- hope we survive that one :P
Fear of extinction acting as an incentive?

I don't know about the scare tactics, but ask yourself, what would lead up to this in the first place?

IE. human beings were the instigators to begin with...
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Old 2009-06-25, 12:34   Link #44
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Saving the planet doesn't refer to saving the ball of rock and iron that we're standing on. The planet refers to the environment, ecology, the nature of the planet itself.

And its also not up to humans to decide whether we should die or not. The DNA in our cells, the mitochondria that invests in our species is what decides whether we need to continue surviving. And its the universe itself who decides whether we should die out, we are made from stardust in the first place. Our job is to survive and reproduce, that's why humans are programmed to multiply and spread, like all other living organisms.

And since we are supposed to survive until the time limit set up by the universe, we should just work hard to survive. And to survive, we need to do something about the state of the planet, which includes not just saving ourselves but other organisms.
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Old 2009-06-25, 12:48   Link #45
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Old 2009-06-25, 15:17   Link #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
Saving the planet doesn't refer to saving the ball of rock and iron that we're standing on. The planet refers to the environment, ecology, the nature of the planet itself.

And its also not up to humans to decide whether we should die or not. The DNA in our cells, the mitochondria that invests in our species is what decides whether we need to continue surviving. And its the universe itself who decides whether we should die out, we are made from stardust in the first place. Our job is to survive and reproduce, that's why humans are programmed to multiply and spread, like all other living organisms.

And since we are supposed to survive until the time limit set up by the universe, we should just work hard to survive. And to survive, we need to do something about the state of the planet, which includes not just saving ourselves but other organisms.
Throwing a bit too much animism and fate into the mix, imo... o.-
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Old 2009-06-25, 18:35   Link #47
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Originally Posted by Let'sFightingLove View Post
Humans, as evolved animals, are inherently selfish, it's simply a byproduct of genetics. We must thrive to reproduce, which in the greater scheme of things, is our ultimate purpose.
Society as a whole seems to have accepted that little bit about genetics and evolution, but people trumpet it the wrong way. There's a concept in biology called "kinship" - it exists in higher-order animals (read: herd/pack animals). It means that you will make sacrifices for those that you are related to, not because it'll benefit the genes within you as a single individual, but because it will benefit the chances of your group's survival. Humans are unique in that their groups have grown to epic proportions and now form societies and civilization as we know it, but look around you - the formation of groups, packs, collectives, is not unique to humans. Being a part of a collective enhances survival.

Some people (and some animals) are indeed selfish. Let's not blame it on the theory of "the selfish gene."
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Old 2009-06-25, 18:52   Link #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
Saving the planet doesn't refer to saving the ball of rock and iron that we're standing on. The planet refers to the environment, ecology, the nature of the planet itself.

And its also not up to humans to decide whether we should die or not. The DNA in our cells, the mitochondria that invests in our species is what decides whether we need to continue surviving. And its the universe itself who decides whether we should die out, we are made from stardust in the first place. Our job is to survive and reproduce, that's why humans are programmed to multiply and spread, like all other living organisms.

And since we are supposed to survive until the time limit set up by the universe, we should just work hard to survive. And to survive, we need to do something about the state of the planet, which includes not just saving ourselves but other organisms.
What I think Vexx was saying was that we aren't "saving the planet", as the environment and the ecology will still be fine, though changed somewhat. Rather, these are attempts at preserving the current status of the environment. Keeping it the same, in other words.

I also have to agree with Vexx about the "fate" thing. I don't believe the universe has a consciousness, so I don't think it decides anything.
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Old 2009-06-25, 19:00   Link #49
Let'sFightingLove
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Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post

Some people (and some animals) are indeed selfish.
By conscious choice?


It's not our survival as a species that's the issue, the OP's inquisition was denoting our effect on a general worldwide scale.

I have no doubt we can collaborate as a race, just that space is devoid of oxygen..


EDIT: Though, you are correct, working in a pact we get the job done at a much swifter pace, fucking up the earth that is.

Last edited by Let'sFightingLove; 2009-06-26 at 01:23.
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Old 2009-06-25, 19:08   Link #50
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Originally Posted by OceanBlue View Post
What I think Vexx was saying was that we aren't "saving the planet", as the environment and the ecology will still be fine, though changed somewhat. Rather, these are attempts at preserving the current status of the environment. Keeping it the same, in other words.

I also have to agree with Vexx about the "fate" thing. I don't believe the universe has a consciousness, so I don't think it decides anything.
I do understand what he says, but thousands of tonnes of CO2 per minute by humans, tells me that the environment is not fine at all.

And too bad the universe has already given us multiple time limits and occasional tests to push our survival instincts, including the global warming we've caused ourselves.

Our fate will be sealed in 5 billion years when the Sun goes red giant if we haven't progress enough to reach into space. We'll then need to leave the solar system itself when it goes super nova. Then in another 10 billion years or so we need to be able to survive the collision between Milky Way and the Andromeda Galaxy. In 25 billion years there's a speculation of a super massive black hole that will engulf our galaxy cluster. Then if we survive that, we will face the ultimate test of the Big Freeze.

Our job is to survive, which is what we were evolved to do. The universe created us and they are also out to destroy us. We are descendants of the star dust left over from the creation of the Sun, we are given a special chance to be able to observe this universe. Should we die from our own hands as we devastate the planet further? Or should we give ourselves a chance to survive as long as the universe allows?
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Old 2009-06-25, 19:10   Link #51
Xcmreo
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I just shoot the ground and hear it scream hysterically (i guess earth is girl, gaea or whatever...)
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Old 2009-06-25, 19:22   Link #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OceanBlue View Post
What I think Vexx was saying was that we aren't "saving the planet", as the environment and the ecology will still be fine, though changed somewhat. Rather, these are attempts at preserving the current status of the environment. Keeping it the same, in other words.

I also have to agree with Vexx about the "fate" thing. I don't believe the universe has a consciousness, so I don't think it decides anything.
I think the idea is to not keep the planet the same, but to manage it (and the resources upon it) in a way that humans will be able to live for the longest amount of time. Saving all the species of animals and plants from going extinct is only important if their survival makes our survival easier.
humans can definitely survive global warming, no matter how bad it gets, but if we just sit around and do nothing right now then billions of people would have to die before their time. It's kind of like procrastinating homework: the longer you wait, the less time you have and the harder it is to get it done.

whether or not the universe is conscious has nothing to do with the issue at hand. If anything, the universe being conscious is actually an artistic way to describe the overall state of things, just like it is technically irrational to assume that humans are conscious. But we do it anyway because it makes things easier for us (or just me? i dunno).
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Old 2009-06-25, 19:51   Link #53
Zippicus
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I'm more concerned about those stupid Martians causing global warming on Mars, what the heck are they thinking ruining their planet like that. What a bunch of irresponsible jerks.
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Old 2009-06-25, 19:52   Link #54
Irenicus
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Well, one of the keys to a lasting ecology is biodiversity. The more diverse an environment is, the less likely it is that one natural disaster, one disease, or one stupid genetic engineering gone wrong can Destroy Us All (tm).

Hence, keeping as many species alive as possible is considered quite beneficial in the long run. While "nature" as an all-encompassing concept of the entire Earth environment is definitely far tougher than puny little humans, specific ecologies can be surprisingly fragile. Idiotic humans hunting down an entire bison species might set off something far greater than the death of a bunch of buffaloes. Overgrazing by human-raised livestock can cause severe desertification, etc., etc. Yes, in the greater timeline most species don't survive, the environment isn't static, all that stuff. But we aren't living In the Long Run (BS economists say otherwise), I'd prefer it if I know today and tomorrow isn't going to collapse down on me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LeoXiao View Post
whether or not the universe is conscious has nothing to do with the issue at hand. If anything, the universe being conscious is actually an artistic way to describe the overall state of things, just like it is technically irrational to assume that humans are conscious. But we do it anyway because it makes things easier for us (or just me? i dunno).
Mind to clarify that particular bit of post-modern philosophy for me?
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Old 2009-06-25, 20:36   Link #55
Shay
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I do stuff. I do plenty actually, but not because I am worried about the Earth's wellbeing. It's more like a respect for ones elders.

Mankind to the Earth is equivalent to a pimple on my bumcheek. I will allow it to annoy me for so long, but in the end I will jst pop it!

The Earth is over 4 Billion years young for fucks sake! The Earth will be here long after we're gone. We are simply parasites lacthing on to a much greater host. And just like the dinosaurs our time will eventually be up and Mother Earth will scratch her bum cheek and pop! Another form of life will get the chance to suckle on Earths nipple.

I'm no scientist but I honestly think that it is not the earth's time we are reducing but our own. Therefore, yes I do recycle and shit, but as I said not for the earth but for my fucking species!
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Old 2009-06-25, 21:02   Link #56
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Originally Posted by Irenicus View Post

Mind to clarify that particular bit of post-modern philosophy for me?
I am conscious. But I don't have any empirical proof that you are, or that I am. However, I believe that you (and other people) are conscious, and not just soulless biological machines, because it's what my mind naturally assumes is true with other people, who are outwardly similar entities as myself, and therefore are probably self-aware as well. But there's no proof that anyone is conscious.

In regards to the whole universe thing, I see it this way: Is the universe a massively complex, conscious being that we live within, or is it just an object, as everything is an object? Either way, within the universe, things happen. Stars and heavenly bodies arise and die. It's kind of like a body, that contains trillions of cells. If you were a cell (well a cell that could think), could you imagine that you were part of a human with thoughts and feelings? Maybe not, you might say something like "I don't believe the universe is conscious," but whether or not you believe the universe is conscious doesn't matter, since whatever it does still affects you.
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Old 2009-06-25, 21:03   Link #57
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Old 2009-06-25, 23:19   Link #58
Vexx
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Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
I do understand what he says, but thousands of tonnes of CO2 per minute by humans, tells me that the environment is not fine at all.

And too bad the universe has already given us multiple time limits and occasional tests to push our survival instincts, including the global warming we've caused ourselves.

Our fate will be sealed in 5 billion years when the Sun goes red giant if we haven't progress enough to reach into space. We'll then need to leave the solar system itself when it goes super nova. Then in another 10 billion years or so we need to be able to survive the collision between Milky Way and the Andromeda Galaxy. In 25 billion years there's a speculation of a super massive black hole that will engulf our galaxy cluster. Then if we survive that, we will face the ultimate test of the Big Freeze.

Our job is to survive, which is what we were evolved to do. The universe created us and they are also out to destroy us. We are descendants of the star dust left over from the creation of the Sun, we are given a special chance to be able to observe this universe. Should we die from our own hands as we devastate the planet further? Or should we give ourselves a chance to survive as long as the universe allows?
Yeah, where I agree is that the planet certainly is having worsening problems supporting Humans in their current activities. The Earth will be "fine" even if its a sulphur covered morass with only cockroaches to observe --- its in our own interests AS A SPECIES to change our behavior so that we survive. Anyone who has taken nonlinear dynamics understands how systems have operational regions of stability. Shifting from one region of stability to another can be very sudden. The new region may be very untenable for us and the other critters.

Supposedly, that's how we excel as a species --- we're SUPPOSED to realize that shooting ourselves in the foot is a bad idea and that cooperating to share and manage the resources is the best win of all. Cooperation and altruism *is* an evolutionary advantage -- many species practice forms of both.
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Old 2009-06-25, 23:37   Link #59
Akazgea
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Originally Posted by Shay View Post
I do stuff. I do plenty actually, but not because I am worried about the Earth's wellbeing. It's more like a respect for ones elders.

Mankind to the Earth is equivalent to a pimple on my bumcheek. I will allow it to annoy me for so long, but in the end I will jst pop it!

The Earth is over 4 Billion years young for fucks sake! The Earth will be here long after we're gone. We are simply parasites lacthing on to a much greater host. And just like the dinosaurs our time will eventually be up and Mother Earth will scratch her bum cheek and pop! Another form of life will get the chance to suckle on Earths nipple.

I'm no scientist but I honestly think that it is not the earth's time we are reducing but our own. Therefore, yes I do recycle and shit, but as I said not for the earth but for my fucking species!
I haven't enjoyed a post this much for some time.

I also think the main concern is how we survive, instead of the earth. I think in time the earth will find its way to recover once it gets rid of us. So, we need to find a way to help us live in a better environment for as long as we can. But, I don't think there is any turning back, as long as our consumption overpowers the recovery.
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Old 2009-06-26, 00:28   Link #60
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Global warming is junk science and the environmental movement has been co-oped by people with a political agenda or filled with anti-progress, anti-technology neo-Luddites. So, no, I don't do anything for the Earth because the Earth has survived being hit by mountain-size asteroids slamming into it at speeds dozens of times faster than a bullet and several mass extinction that would make a total nuclear war look like a 4th of July firework show. The Earth has been doing fine without me for billions of years, it'll do fine without when I'm gone.
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