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Old 2009-07-03, 14:59   Link #81
stray
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paradox13 View Post
Kinda see what u mean...it does make Jimbei look like a stereotypical good guy and a rather shallow character.

On the other hand, the translation is rather unclear, so we'll just have to see how Oda plays this one out.
My Japanese is pretty piss poor, but in context I get the impression the whole exchange has more to do with Jinbei's take on the 'racism' between human and fishmen than 'thanks for beating Arlong... but... I won't bring that up now.' Mind you it came right after Jinbei and Croc talking about how "violent" of a race fishmen are. More like "Now that we're out, I feel grateful {for the help in escaping} yet guilty or humbled {for what you've seen of our race so far}" cue Arlong scene "but that's not important now yada yada"

Doesn't really make sense the other way, for him to be saying "thanks for beating arlong... but that's not important."
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Old 2009-07-03, 15:50   Link #82
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Originally Posted by Master Mold View Post
I don't want a Arlong 2.0. I want a good chracter found in Jinbei besides the predictable good guy Seven Armed Seas friend of Luffy's, that has no depth what so ever when something as deep as racism etc is involved. I wish Jin and Fisher Tiger would trade places, at this point in the story. So far Fisher Tiger is the one who turned out to be the fish I wanted Jinbei to be for them long years.

You better make this right Oda.
So, if I got this right, you appear to be more upset because your original speculations and conceptions were not confirmed, and Jinbei turned out to be a different character than you originally wanted him to be?

btw, what do you mean by predicatble good guy. Someone predicted that Jinbei would be a good guy? Or someone predicted that one of the Shichibukai would be good?

For the longest time, everyone assumed that Jinbei would either be Arlong 2.0, or the complete opposite (Arlong -2.0?). Instead, he is something completely different. He is Naruto . Trying to find a way for peace and justice to exist in his chaotic world, even if he must become the "villain" (attacking the WG and supporting pirates like Ace, Whitebeard and now Luffy) in order to find a way for peace and justice to exist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stray View Post
My Japanese is pretty piss poor, but in context I get the impression the whole exchange has more to do with Jinbei's take on the 'racism' between human and fishmen than 'thanks for beating Arlong... but... I won't bring that up now.' Mind you it came right after Jinbei and Croc talking about how "violent" of a race fishmen are. More like "Now that we're out, I feel grateful {for the help in escaping} yet guilty or humbled {for what you've seen of our race so far}" cue Arlong scene "but that's not important now yada yada"
That is almost exactly how I read the scene in question.

Last edited by james0246; 2009-07-03 at 16:02.
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Old 2009-07-03, 16:02   Link #83
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Who cares what Jinbei said concerning Arlong, he still hasn't proven himself [Like many characters]...Until he does/say something bomb, he's nothing.
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Old 2009-07-03, 17:00   Link #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Mold View Post
I don't want a Arlong 2.0. I want a good chracter found in Jinbei besides the predictable good guy Seven Armed Seas friend of Luffy's, that has no depth what so ever when something as deep as racism etc is involved. I wish Jin and Fisher Tiger would trade places, at this point in the story. So far Fisher Tiger is the one who turned out to be the fish I wanted Jinbei to be for them long years.
All Fisher Tiger did was bring about the emancipation of many human and fishman slaves. What exactly is it that you find so great about him? The fact that he climbed the red line with his bare hands and directly opposed the World Nobles? Is that what made him "badass" for you? Because beyond that, I don't see what you find so appealing about him.

Let's look at some facts about Jimbei:

- He's one of the seven warlords

- He will go so far as to rebel against the WG (which he did do) should they endanger the safety of his race

- The title of "Shichibukai" means crap to him

- He was Arlong's former captain (the fact that he was associated with him should warrant some "badass" points, right?)

- Ever since Whitebeard declared Fishman Island as his territory, peace has been prevalent, and therefore Jimbei is on good terms with him (this should be a bonus point for you since you love Whitebeard )

- He can blow people away with his fishman karate without even making any physical contact

- He can communicate with and summon whale sharks at his every whim

- He is "godlike" in the ocean

From what we know, Fisher Tiger doesn't really have anything over Jimbei. Honestly, the only thing I could think of that puts Jimbei down for you is the fact that he actually got imprisoned in Impel Down. You probably looked at his imprisonment as a sign of weakness, but the truth of the matter is that if any of the other warlords would have tried to pull off the same stunt as Jimbei, they too would have shared his fate.
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Old 2009-07-03, 17:25   Link #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma View Post
All Fisher Tiger did was bring about the emancipation of many human and fishman slaves. What exactly is it that you find so great about him? The fact that he climbed the red line with his bare hands and directly opposed the World Nobles? Is that what made him "badass" for you? Because beyond that, I don't see what you find so appealing about him.

Let's look at some facts about Jimbei:

- He's one of the seven warlords

- He will go so far as to rebel against the WG (which he did do) should they endanger the safety of his race

- The title of "Shichibukai" means crap to him

- He was Arlong's former captain (the fact that he was associated with him should warrant some "badass" points, right?)

- Ever since Whitebeard declared Fishman Island as his territory, peace has been prevalent, and therefore Jimbei is on good terms with him (this should be a bonus point for you since you love Whitebeard )

- He can blow people away with his fishman karate without even making any physical contact

- He can communicate with and summon whale sharks at his every whim

- He is "godlike" in the ocean

From what we know, Fisher Tiger doesn't really have anything over Jimbei. Honestly, the only thing I could think of that puts Jimbei down for you is the fact that he actually got imprisoned in Impel Down. You probably looked at his imprisonment as a sign of weakness, but the truth of the matter is that if any of the other warlords would have tried to pull off the same stunt as Jimbei, they too would have shared his fate.

For you to say Jimbei and Fisher Tiger are equal is baseless since we don't know the extent of Fisher Tiger's power. Fisher Tiger might have been more powerful in the sea than Jimbei
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Old 2009-07-03, 17:30   Link #86
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Originally Posted by Red-Haired_Shanks View Post
For you to say Jimbei and Fisher Tiger are equal is baseless since we don't know the extent of Fisher Tiger's power. Fisher Tiger might have been more powerful in the sea than Jimbei
I never said that Jimbei and Fisher Tiger are equal. The point of my previous post was to ask Master Mold what he finds more appealing about Fisher Tiger than Jimbei. I merely just gave him a set of points that show Jimbei is "badass" in his own right.
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Old 2009-07-03, 17:33   Link #87
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Fisher Tiger freed the slaves and started the Sunshine Band, or whatever the Fishman insurgency was called. So, that was pretty badass. But his name was Fisher Tiger...which is a stupid name. It's like Oda took the names of the famous female American actress from the late 1970's/early 80s (Carrie Fisher) and a current famous American athelete (Tiger Woods), combined their names, and got Fisher Tiger.

That instantly detracts from his badass status .


Last edited by james0246; 2009-07-03 at 17:44.
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Old 2009-07-03, 17:46   Link #88
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
Fisher Tiger freed some slaves and started the Sunshine Band, or whatever the Fishman insurgency was called. So, that was pretty badass. But his name was Fisher Tiger...what a stupid name. That instantly detracts from his badass status .
Ah yes, you are referring to the sunny pirates. I just find it a little strange how Jimbei is getting a little hate because of his "goodness".
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Old 2009-07-03, 20:20   Link #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
So, if I got this right, you appear to be more upset because your original speculations and conceptions were not confirmed, and Jinbei turned out to be a different character than you originally wanted him to be?
Wanting for a character to be cool and not wack (which is Jinbei so far) is considered speculation?

Quote:
btw, what do you mean by predicatble good guy. Someone predicted that Jinbei would be a good guy?
Many predicted that Jin would be a good guy and befriend the SH crew.

Quote:
Or someone predicted that one of the Shichibukai would be good?
Jin is one of the Seven Armed Seas.

Quote:
For the longest time, everyone assumed that Jinbei would either be Arlong 2.0, or the complete opposite (Arlong -2.0?). Instead, he is something completely different. He is Naruto . Trying to find a way for peace and justice to exist in his chaotic world, even if he must become the "villain" (attacking the WG and supporting pirates like Ace, Whitebeard and now Luffy) in order to find a way for peace and justice to exist.
I only seen one guy assume Jinbei would be a Arlong 2.0 and his name was bounty something.IIRC

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma View Post
All Fisher Tiger did was bring about the emancipation of many human and fishman slaves. What exactly is it that you find so great about him? The fact that he climbed the red line with his bare hands and directly opposed the World Nobles? Is that what made him "badass" for you? Because beyond that, I don't see what you find so appealing about him.
What you just mentioned out does current on panel Jinbei. Not to mention your missing the point of my post.

Quote:
Let's look at some facts about Jimbei:

- He's one of the seven warlords
Who use to serve under Fisher Tiger.

Quote:
- He will go so far as to rebel against the WG (which he did do) should they endanger the safety of his race
Fisher Tiger did that by himself with no title and didn't get locked up.

Quote:
- The title of "Shichibukai" means crap to him
Titles mean nothing to Fisher Tiger, hence him doing what he did for many fish slaves and human slaves.

Quote:
- He was Arlong's former captain (the fact that he was associated with him should warrant some "badass" points, right?)
Fisher Tiger started it all.

Quote:
- Ever since Whitebeard declared Fishman Island as his territory, peace has been prevalent, and therefore Jimbei is on good terms with him (this should be a bonus point for you since you love Whitebeard )
Lol

Quote:
- He can blow people away with his fishman karate without even making any physical contact
Canon fodder don't count.

Quote:
- He can communicate with and summon whale sharks at his every whim

- He is "godlike" in the ocean
and that didn't help him form being imprisoned after rebelling against the WG.


Quote:
From what we know, Fisher Tiger doesn't really have anything over Jimbei. Honestly,
Nothing Jinbei has done tops Fisher Tiger turning the World Government pale.

Quote:
the only thing I could think of that puts Jimbei down for you is the fact that he actually got imprisoned in Impel Down. You probably looked at his imprisonment as a sign of weakness, but the truth of the matter is that if any of the other warlords would have tried to pull off the same stunt as Jimbei, they too would have shared his fate.
You maybe right, but Fisher tiger didn't get locked up pulling off a stunt that was even greater then what his subordinate did.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma View Post
Ah yes, you are referring to the sunny pirates. I just find it a little strange how Jimbei is getting a little hate because of his "goodness".
Thats not it, you can be "good" and still badass. Lets take Fisher Tiger for example, he had an hatred for humans but saved human slaves and many other species.

Last edited by Master Mold; 2009-07-03 at 20:34.
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Old 2009-07-03, 21:43   Link #90
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For the longest time, everyone assumed that Jinbei would either be Arlong 2.0, or the complete opposite (Arlong -2.0?). Instead, he is something completely different. He is Naruto
What?

Arlong -2.0 IS naruto.

And he is a rather stereotypical 'good' guy with no depth whatsoever...
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Old 2009-07-03, 21:55   Link #91
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Originally Posted by Master Mold View Post
Fisher Tiger did that by himself with no title and didn't get locked up.
You're right, but his fate was even worse for opposing the World Nobles. He died sometime after the emancipation of slaves, and although we don't know the cause of his death, I highly doubt that he was able to live a tranquil life after his actions. In other words, I think that he was assassinated/hunted down by some WG personnel. I fully acknowledge that this is merely speculation on my part, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Mold View Post
Canon fodder don't count.
I agree cannon fodder don't amount to much, but they still serve their purpose, and that is to show the supremacy/invincibility of powerhouses.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Mold View Post
You maybe right, but Fisher tiger didn't get locked up pulling off a stunt that was even greater then what his subordinate did.
So basically, what puts Jimbei down for you is the fact that he got imprisoned for his disobedience. Given how strong Jimbei is, logic would dictate that a group effort or one very powerful individual (perhaps an admiral) coerced him into his confinement. Did Fisher Tiger encounter any powerful adversaries that were sufficient to stop him? That's the real question, whereas for Jimbei we know he was put into Impel Down through the use of force obviously.
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Old 2009-07-03, 22:07   Link #92
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Seems like people don't know much about ficitonal Yakuza legends, their culture and practices. Jinbei follows the word '義'/ 'Gi', which means honour, justice, righteousness. Ficitonal Yakuza are supposedly followers of justice who stand against 'justice' of social law.

These Yakuza carry out their own beliefs of their own justice, they do not follow what the government states as justice. Justice to them is personal.

For a moment while he was a Shichibukai, his justice was similar to the WG, but now the WG's justice is turning against his. He stood up to his own justice and disobeys the WG.

A Yakuza honours trust the most, and they do not just trust anyone easily. But if one breaks the trust, it is a serious dishonour and an offence against their righteousness. Jinbei is bound to the WG as a Shichibukai, but he also had great trust in Whitebeard who protected the Fishmen, and the WG is now dealing with Whitebeard.

At first he only refused to fight because he doesn't want to dishonour himself by fighting the WG. But as he met Ace, he realised that his honour is cleanly split in half by the WG and Whitebeard, he can only choose one, which is Whitebeard.

If people think Jinbei is a stereotypical good guy who just wants to do good, you have no read enough manga, or simply not enough exposure to Japanese fiction. In fact most people out there have no clue about the character interactions at all, because they are viewing a Japanese culture based story using a Western perspective.
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Old 2009-07-03, 22:11   Link #93
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Originally Posted by Kafriel View Post
Who says Shiryuu isn't to betray BB and surprise-attack him with his little team, hoping to "kill the man who invaded ID and reclaim Magellan's position"?
If Shiryuu wanted to kill Blackbeard and co., he should have done that when Blackbeard and co. were lying in there waiting for death to come to them. Also, Magellan and Shiryuu had different ranks, chief warden and chief jailer respectively, so it's inconsistent to say "reclaim Magellan's position."
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Old 2009-07-03, 22:13   Link #94
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Originally Posted by Master Mold View Post
Wanting for a character to be cool and not wack (which is Jinbei so far) is considered speculation?
What are you talking about, Oda already admitted that Jinbei is awesome .

Quote:
Originally Posted by paradox13 View Post
And he is a rather stereotypical 'good' guy with no depth whatsoever...
How is he stereotypical at all? He fights for honour and justice; he fights for the yakuza way. We have yet to see a character like this in the entire series (the closest might be Frankie), and we seldom see characters like this in Shounen series (yakuza, mind you, similar self-sacrificing good guys are common).

Additionally, comparing him to Fisher Tiger is a somewhat useless comparisson considering we do not know much about Fisher Tiger or his fate, though it seems safe to say that Fisher Tiger is dead.

edit: damn, C.A. partially beat me to the punch.
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Old 2009-07-03, 22:13   Link #95
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If people think Jinbei is a stereotypical good guy who just wants to do good, you have no read enough manga, or simply not enough exposure to Japanese fiction. In fact most people out there have no clue about the character interactions at all, because they are viewing a Japanese culture based story using a Western perspective.
Stop using Japanese culture and Japanese language to justify everything. I'm from Hong Kong, I get a fair dose of both Western and Japanese culture (as well as Chinese but thats beside the point). Fact is, honour isn't solely a Japanese concept, in fact its featured in quite a lot of Western media (and history) as well. Startling revelation, that isn't it?

Anyway, Honor isn't really a hard to understand I'm afraid, so your point fails completely and utterly. Jimbei's character isn't hard to understand either. Seems to me that Master Mold was hoping for something less shallow, and I understand what hes trying to say. Jimbei's character is rather shallow, the stereotypical self sacrificing 'good' guy that are found in most Shonen manga (albeit as the protagonist) like Naruto and Ichigo.

@James: I hate how people romantize the Yakuza. They may have their own brand of honor, but at the end of the day, they exist to make a profit and they break their own rules a lot of the time (much like the Chinese triads). Jimbei's honour may have similarities with 'yakuza honor' but really its not the same thing.
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Old 2009-07-03, 22:16   Link #96
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Stop using Japanese culture and Japanese language to justify everything. I'm from Hong Kong, I get a fair dose of both Western and Japanese culture (as well as Chinese but thats beside the point). Fact is, honour isn't solely a Japanese concept, in fact its featured in quite a lot of Western media (and history) as well. Startling revelation, that isn't it?

Anyway, Honor isn't really a hard to understand I'm afraid, so your point fails completely and utterly. Jimbei's character isn't hard to understand either. Seems to me that Master Mold was hoping for something less shallow, and I understand what hes trying to say. Jimbei's character is rather shallow, the stereotypical self sacrificing 'good' guy that are found in most Shonen manga (albeit as the protagonist) like Naruto and Ichigo.
The fact that you used the word stereotypical means that you do not have the ability to recognise significance of the character make up and honour itself.
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Old 2009-07-03, 22:17   Link #97
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The fact that you used the word stereotypical means that you do not have the ability to recognise significance of the character make up and honour itself.
I hate your air of superiority.

Really you can do better then this right? There is no need to resort to mudslinging..we're in the middle of a mature discussion and if you can't handle that then its better not to post anything at all.

Quote:
and we seldom see characters like this in Shounen series (yakuza, mind you, similar self-sacrificing good guys are common).
That may be true, but Jimbei isn't a Yakuza. He might share some similarities in terms of ideals with Yakuza but they aren't the same and you can't equate the two together.
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Old 2009-07-03, 22:21   Link #98
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Originally Posted by paradox13 View Post
@James: I hate how people romantize the Yakuza. They may have their own brand of honor, but at the end of the day, they exist to make a profit and they break their own rules a lot of the time (much like the Chinese triads). Jimbei's honour may have similarities with 'yakuza honor' but really its not the same thing.
This is fiction, so, of course, characters will be bound to represent the ideal, not the practical or realistic. That is what Jinbei does - he represents the romantic ideal of a yakuza. Consequently, when he speaks of honour, etc, his words have meaning.

btw, did anyone else notice how good Jinbei was at steering the ship? I don't know why, but that surprised me...
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Old 2009-07-03, 22:23   Link #99
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I hate your air of superiority.

Really you can do better then this right? No need for any mudslinging..we're in the middle of a mature discussion and if you can't handle that then its better not to post anything at all.
Good to know that you know the word 'air'. The way you applied it is the exact meaning of 'Ki', which I've been explaining over at the Haki thread. And Haki is this 'air of dominance', a feeling that will overcome others.

Really funny that you're the one talking about maturity.
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btw, did anyone else notice how good Jinbei was at steering the ship? I don't know why, but that surprised me...
Well he had a great sense of the ocean and its currents, so he should be able to steer with ease.
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Old 2009-07-03, 22:23   Link #100
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@james0246

Maybe because he was the 2nd Captain of the Sunny Pirates? He could have done that many times as the Captain.
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