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View Poll Results: Valkyria Chronicles - Episode 14 Rating
Perfect 10 5 12.50%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 11 27.50%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 13 32.50%
7 out of 10 : Good 5 12.50%
6 out of 10 : Average 3 7.50%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 1 2.50%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 2 5.00%
Voters: 40. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2009-07-07, 00:19   Link #101
Father Hentai
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JagdPanther View Post
Unless Gleam mistranslated I wouldn't see why she would be referring to the Darcsens.

Okay, I take that back. I can. But with what that scene shows it seems much more likely that she's referring to the Imps.
From the cloth her parents have worn when she thought back. could it be that she is half darcsen in the anime?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
So exactly what would be the other decision?

Alicia already noted the alternatives but Welkin already knows that none of them are good because they'd all end up dead in the end. Welkin knew they only had one course of action but he didn't want to call it. When Faldio called it did Welkin object? No because he knew that was the only way.

The only hardest decision would be to surrender but then that pretty much destroys the entire operation that they worked hard for and condemns the Darscens anyways.

By all means fellows, please describe this other decision that would've saved everyone. This is war, you can't expect things to go smoothly and this is EXACTLY what Largo stated prior to the mission and they stated that the train was to be taken out no matter what and that the rescue of the civilians was considered lower priority and as a decoy.
Ok. You want me to recap all the possibilities?

1. Zaka and Rosie were still positioned quite well and there were still explosives on the rail bridge which did not detonate. I do not think that the tank does have a sonar and relieves on information that is coming from the troops so they had the best option to destroy the tank.
2. We do not know where exactly Isara and Ramal were positioned but they also had a good position to take a shot at the "Esel". This would be a stalemate if Gregor would be hanging on his life.
3. Wait a bit longer until the Largo brought the hostages into safety. This would mean that the resistance and squad 7 would fought their way out.

As you can see there are three option what could have been done. Option one is the most I prefer because it takes the less casualties if it would success.

I do not say that you cannot prevent casualties but you have always to keep it low. especially if they are civilians.

War is always dirty. You are correct. But war should always be fought between soldiers.
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Last edited by Father Hentai; 2009-07-07 at 00:45.
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Old 2009-07-07, 02:33   Link #102
klare
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Father Hentai View Post
I do not say that you cannot prevent casualties but you have always to keep it low. especially if they are civilians.

War is always dirty. You are correct. But war should always be fought between soldiers.
agreed, just that things do not always turn out ideally

Spoiler for the new OP:
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Old 2009-07-07, 03:58   Link #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness
That's complete BS and means nothing.

The allies didn't had a giant cannon high above them pinpointing their location while they were figuring out their plan.

Each and every situation is different, you can't treat them all the same.
Your criticism is uncalled for since he already noted that Faldio's decision is the best in this case. He KNOWS that each and every situation should be treated differently.
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Old 2009-07-07, 06:15   Link #104
Keroko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
That's complete BS
.... Right. So Telemark never happened. Sure. Seriously, calling history BS just because it contradicts your belief of war?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
and means nothing.

The allies didn't had a giant cannon high above them pinpointing their location while they were figuring out their plan.

Each and every situation is different, you can't treat them all the same.
I didn't say they were the same, hell I even said that Faldio made the correct choice given the situation. What I am saying is that aiming for the lowest amount of civilian casualties is not stupid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
Idealism means noble which would have everything work out perfectly. Ideally you'd shoot for 0 casualities.

You can never expect a military operation to go smoothly. Idealism in Valkyria would be where the explosives would've taken out the tank in one shot. Instead it didn't, that's when the mission went fubar.
No, but you can aim for the ideal solution. If not, then why do you think weaponry became more accurate? Why does the army make pin-point strikes while consciously avoiding civilian casualties?

Idealism is not 'how things turn out' it's what you aim to do. The mission to fouzen was an idealistic mission. Save the laborers, destroy the train, free fouzen. It didn't turn out that way, but that doesn't mean the mission isn't an idealistic one. Does that mean the mission was 'wrong?'
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Old 2009-07-07, 07:04   Link #105
kalbron
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No, but you can aim for the ideal solution. If not, then why do you think weaponry became more accurate? Why does the army make pin-point strikes while consciously avoiding civilian casualties?
In answer to the first, to conserve ammunition so that you can kill more people, faster.

In answer to the second, it's because the media will rape them and the politicians, the politicians will then go on to rape the command structure of the army, who will subsequently send the rape down the command chain until the grunt soldiers are the ones hurting most of all. So to spare themselves from rape, they do all they can to keep the media monkey off their backs, even if it means getting more friendly soldiers killed to do it. After all, killing other people's soldiers is bad, but getting your own soldiers killed is A-okay in the media's books.

What? You thought it was for some idealistic reason? Heck no. Armies all over the world learned the hard way that the media is your one way ticket to losing a conflict from the Vietnam War.
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Old 2009-07-07, 07:25   Link #106
RWBladewing
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I am not joining in this debate but in regards to Alicia, Faldio sure is a jerk. I get that he sees his chance because anime Welkin is completely out of it at all times, but the way he repeatedly flirts with her right in front of him, almost like he's doing it on purpose, is annoying. (If he is actually doing it on purpose to knock some sense into Welkin fine, but otherwise, jerk.)

Glad I played the game before seeing that opening. Glad I didn't watch the game's opening either as that is an even bigger spoiler than this.
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Old 2009-07-07, 08:36   Link #107
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Originally Posted by Father Hentai View Post
From the cloth her parents have worn when she thought back. could it be that she is half darcsen in the anime?
Nope. Neither of her parents had dark hair and blue eyes in the flashback. So unless she were adopted that'd be a hole. Besides, her features are about as far from Darcsen as you can get.
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Old 2009-07-07, 10:38   Link #108
yezhanquan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kalbron View Post
In answer to the first, to conserve ammunition so that you can kill more people, faster.

In answer to the second, it's because the media will rape them and the politicians, the politicians will then go on to rape the command structure of the army, who will subsequently send the rape down the command chain until the grunt soldiers are the ones hurting most of all. So to spare themselves from rape, they do all they can to keep the media monkey off their backs, even if it means getting more friendly soldiers killed to do it. After all, killing other people's soldiers is bad, but getting your own soldiers killed is A-okay in the media's books.

What? You thought it was for some idealistic reason? Heck no. Armies all over the world learned the hard way that the media is your one way ticket to losing a conflict from the Vietnam War.
On Vietnam, the US really had no business there. The recently deceased McNamara found that out the hard way, after the war was over.

Media censorship would be vital in a serious war. 'Nam was the first time the media played a really big role in the whole mixture, but even without them, the US would most likely not have won anyway.
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Old 2009-07-07, 11:36   Link #109
Foreshadow
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Originally Posted by Father Hentai View Post

War is always dirty. You are correct. But war should always be fought between soldiers.
I do agree with this but the fact of the matter was, the Imperials had already involved the the Citizens in the first place. It was basically a concentration camp. The Imperials had brought in innocent citizens, forced labor on them, shot at them as they tried to escape, then used them as meat shields. The citizens were in it whether they wanted to be or not.
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Old 2009-07-07, 15:59   Link #110
Lostdreams
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Honestly, when Gregor issued the message that he was gonna shoot the citizens, couldn't they have asked one group to run one way, and another the other way? At least all the citizens aren't dying that way.
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Old 2009-07-07, 16:00   Link #111
Foreshadow
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Originally Posted by Lostdreams View Post
Honestly, when Gregor issued the message that he was gonna shoot the citizens, couldn't they have asked one group to run one way, and another the other way? At least all the citizens aren't dying that way.
Honestly i think the problem with that was he was already shooting at the citizens. The ones that were escaping anyway.
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Old 2009-07-07, 16:03   Link #112
Lostdreams
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Originally Posted by Foreshadow View Post
Honestly i think the problem with that was he was already shooting at the citizens. The ones that were escaping anyway.
Actually I kinda figured out an answer for my question. I remembered that there were soldiers at the start of the canyon, but they were chasing the Darcsens. Technically, the soldiers would've died too then.
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Old 2009-07-07, 16:46   Link #113
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Love the new OP/ED.
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Old 2009-07-07, 17:32   Link #114
SoldierOfDarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Father Hentai View Post
Ok. You want me to recap all the possibilities?
Yes because I want to see what they are.

Quote:
1. Zaka and Rosie were still positioned quite well and there were still explosives on the rail bridge which did not detonate. I do not think that the tank does have a sonar and relieves on information that is coming from the troops so they had the best option to destroy the tank.
Not sure what you are trying to get at here. The second Rosie charged at the tank the autocannon already targeted her. As Faldio noted the Imperials have the advantage as they have a wide view all around them and there's no cover. So I'm not sure what they could've done as they already detonated on their side and it failed.

Quote:
2. We do not know where exactly Isara and Ramal were positioned but they also had a good position to take a shot at the "Esel". This would be a stalemate if Gregor would be hanging on his life.
Uh huh, but you don't know where they were so it's spectulation and we all know how crappy Imperial tanks are with their shots (short barreled rounds) from long range.

Quote:
3. Wait a bit longer until the Largo brought the hostages into safety. This would mean that the resistance and squad 7 would fought their way out.
Hostages to safety? That tank can fire miles away and the hostages were right out in the open. Run all you want but there's no way they can get out of the way in time.

And it's a huge gamble because that'd mean giving Gregor the time he needs to find and kill everyone which was what he was doing.

Quote:
As you can see there are three option what could have been done. Option one is the most I prefer because it takes the less casualties if it would success.
Sorry but those are not good options because it gives Gregor the time he needs to execute his move. That and as we've already pointed out the tank's out in the open, you can't approach it without being seen which Rosie already showed unless it already fired it's shot.

Quote:
War is always dirty. You are correct. But war should always be fought between soldiers.
Yeah well tell that to the other guy.

Quote:
Right. So Telemark never happened. Sure. Seriously, calling history BS just because it contradicts your belief of war?
No because it means nothing to this situation. Like I said the Allies didn't exactly had a giant cannon hovering over them while they were formulating their plan of attack.

Quote:
No, but you can aim for the ideal solution. If not, then why do you think weaponry became more accurate? Why does the army make pin-point strikes while consciously avoiding civilian casualties?
Isn't that what I just said?
Quote:
Idealism is not 'how things turn out' it's what you aim to do. The mission to fouzen was an idealistic mission. Save the laborers, destroy the train, free fouzen. It didn't turn out that way, but that doesn't mean the mission isn't an idealistic one. Does that mean the mission was 'wrong?'
No it was idealistic nor was it wrong. Their orders from Damon from the beginning was to take out the tank which was keeping the Gallian army away which they achieved. That were their orders. The other objectives served as decoys to draw the imperial attention away.

I think we're on the same page so I'll leave it at that.

Last edited by SoldierOfDarkness; 2009-07-07 at 17:50.
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Old 2009-07-07, 18:00   Link #115
Father Hentai
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Originally Posted by kalbron View Post
In answer to the first, to conserve ammunition so that you can kill more people, faster.

In answer to the second, it's because the media will rape them and the politicians, the politicians will then go on to rape the command structure of the army, who will subsequently send the rape down the command chain until the grunt soldiers are the ones hurting most of all. So to spare themselves from rape, they do all they can to keep the media monkey off their backs, even if it means getting more friendly soldiers killed to do it. After all, killing other people's soldiers is bad, but getting your own soldiers killed is A-okay in the media's books.


Sorry but that what you are telling is an epic fail. Pinpoint attacks are mostly done because of the following reason:

- Cut off the troops command line > HQ down means the troops have to rally new
- Reduce civilian casualties to a minimum > Rules of engagement and Geneva convention
- Reduce own troops deployment and combat engagement > save own soldiers and waste of material and tax money invested for military assignments.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Foreshadow View Post
I do agree with this but the fact of the matter was, the Imperials had already involved the the Citizens in the first place. It was basically a concentration camp. The Imperials had brought in innocent citizens, forced labor on them, shot at them as they tried to escape, then used them as meat shields. The citizens were in it whether they wanted to be or not.
Uhm sorry but only because the Imps transported their own Darcsens into the labor camp in Fouzen does not mean that the commanders decision - here Faldio - to give an attack order with the risk of high casualties is right. Even though hostages and civilians are getting involved military armies have to weigh the proportionality of their situation. And Faldio did not do this while Welkin did hesitate because he was thinking of an solution without having larger casualties.
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Old 2009-07-07, 18:21   Link #116
Father Hentai
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Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
Not sure what you are trying to get at here. The second Rosie charged at the tank the autocannon already targeted her. As Faldio noted the Imperials have the advantage as they have a wide view all around them and there's no cover. So I'm not sure what they could've done as they already detonated on their side and it failed.
Review the episode again. Zaka already had the same idea before Gregor had the cannon shot and before Rosie went on enrage. The turret may have turned into their direction but also because Rosie was yelling around therefore the element of surprise was gone. Second option what also be possible was to fire with a lancer weapon but this was not part of their equip. so I count this idea out. Still if Rosie would not have yelled around they would have a good chance to reach the Rail cannon. Also as advanatage on their side is that the rail crew was badly injured or even dead already.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
Uh huh, but you don't know where they were so it's spectulation and we all know how crappy Imperial tanks are with their shots (short barreled rounds) from long range.
It's an imps tank. How should Gregor know which tank exactly is the tank where Isara and Ramal were sitting? Even though the shot would be crappy it would have been enough to ignite the explosives (metall rubbing on metal) They still have the element of surprise if the communication did not got to Gregor that one tank was hijacked. But you are correct that these are more speculations.


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Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
Hostages to safety? That tank can fire miles away and the hostages were right out in the open. Run all you want but there's no way they can get out of the way in time.

And it's a huge gamble because that'd mean giving Gregor the time he needs to find and kill everyone which was what he was doing.
If I am correct the escape route went into a canyon which would have given more covering area. At least if Faldio would have waited a bit longer Largo could have saved more people.
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Old 2009-07-07, 21:10   Link #117
SoldierOfDarkness
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Originally Posted by Father Hentai View Post
Review the episode again. Zaka already had the same idea before Gregor had the cannon shot and before Rosie went on enrage. The turret may have turned into their direction but also because Rosie was yelling around therefore the element of surprise was gone. Second option what also be possible was to fire with a lancer weapon but this was not part of their equip. so I count this idea out. Still if Rosie would not have yelled around they would have a good chance to reach the Rail cannon. Also as advanatage on their side is that the rail crew was badly injured or even dead already.

It's an imps tank. How should Gregor know which tank exactly is the tank where Isara and Ramal were sitting? Even though the shot would be crappy it would have been enough to ignite the explosives (metall rubbing on metal) They still have the element of surprise if the communication did not got to Gregor that one tank was hijacked. But you are correct that these are more speculations.

If I am correct the escape route went into a canyon which would have given more covering area. At least if Faldio would have waited a bit longer Largo could have saved more people.
Sounds nice but you keep forgetting one thing in your scenarios.

They don't have cellphones/radios.

All of the groups have been acting independently.

So assuming Zaka could've done what you suggested, there's nothing stopping Faldio from going through with his command because he doesn't know what he's doing or planning.

However, Zaka only cried out because he was already out in the open and Isara moved there to engage the tank so he was able to tell her to aim properly but that was during the Tank's lag time. The fact that the tank was still operating its weaponry means that it was still capable of defending itself.

Quote:
At least if Faldio would have waited a bit longer Largo could have saved more people.
Another gamble. The tank's practically overseeing the entire area and it's a projectile weapon so cover is useless as it's capable of indirect fire (Which it demonstrated very well in 13).
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Old 2009-07-08, 05:37   Link #118
encia
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Whaaaat? Alicia a Valkyria? That worthless Alicia? Noooo waaaayyy? O_o
Did you miss EP05 where Alicia has rapid regeneration ability?
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Old 2009-07-08, 05:43   Link #119
encia
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Originally Posted by thundrakkon View Post
And so, Faldio guaranteed that civilian lives will be lost. How would you feel if your family or loved one was the one to be sacrificed, who was just a victim and not even a soldier?

I am not a military expert by any means, but a decision like this could get Faldio in real political trouble, if not military trouble. Yes, politics should stay out of war, but at the same time, politics is what ends wars.

He couldn't think of anything, so he chosed the easiest path, which is to sacrifice others and charge ahead.
One should question who fired the actual weapon that resulted in the death of civilians.
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Old 2009-07-08, 06:08   Link #120
Father Hentai
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One should question who fired the actual weapon that resulted in the death of civilians.
But also you should question what had the situation escalated. Gregor did shoot at the end but Faldio gave the order. If it comes to Military Court Faldio will possibly be judged guilty.
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