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View Poll Results: Valkyria Chronicles - Episode 14 Rating
Perfect 10 5 12.50%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 11 27.50%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 13 32.50%
7 out of 10 : Good 5 12.50%
6 out of 10 : Average 3 7.50%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 1 2.50%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 2 5.00%
Voters: 40. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2009-07-08, 07:19   Link #121
DragoZERO
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Originally Posted by Father Hentai View Post
But also you should question what had the situation escalated. Gregor did shoot at the end but Faldio gave the order. If it comes to Military Court Faldio will possibly be judged guilty.
Yeah. Faldio messed up. You could argue that Gregor would have fired either way but Faldio forced his hand.
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Old 2009-07-08, 13:02   Link #122
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Please remember that there's a Spoiler & Speculation thread. I moved a bunch of recent posts there. No future event game spoilers, hints, or questions in episode threads, even behind spoiler tags.
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Old 2009-07-08, 14:06   Link #123
Eclipze
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Originally Posted by Father Hentai View Post
But also you should question what had the situation escalated. Gregor did shoot at the end but Faldio gave the order. If it comes to Military Court Faldio will possibly be judged guilty.
What happened when Faldio decided to give the order to attack the artillery unit:
-A portion of the escaping Darcsens died (50%? rough estimate). <-bad
-The town was liberated from the Empire's control. <-good
-The surviving Darcsens gained a bit more freedom. <-good
-Faldio and company survived. <-good

What would definitely have happened if idealism (save all Darcsens) was prioritized instead of logic and reasoning, aka Faldio decides that they should surrender/Faldio decides to not attack:

Ending A:
-Faldio and company gets their location locked-on by the artillery unit -> they get killed.
-Escaping Darcsens, regardless of whether they surrender or continue to run, would either get gunned down by the pursuing soldiers OR get bombed by the artillery unit.
-point 1 and 2 ->everyone dies.
-Nothing really changes in Fouzen. Darcsens died? Import more from the Empire to replace the ones that died. Reinforce the defenses of the town to ensure that rebellion will not take place again. Not very positive changes.

Ending B:
-Faldio and company gets captured -> turn into prisoners of war. The group gets tortured into giving out millitary secrets/info and/or eventually killed/used as slaves. Depending on the morality levels of the Empire's prison guards, the females might be sexually abused and/or killed as well.
-Darcsens either get killed by pursuing soldiers/artillery, or re-captured and put back into concentration camps, with far harsher conditions (lesser supply of food, tougher punishment for any sign of resistance, more guards around the perimeter to ensure that escape/rebellion is minimized).
-Again, reinforced defenses for the town, which means lesser chances for future attempts to liberate the town without introducing EVEN MORE casualties.

I'm interested in what logically possible yet idealistic solution Faldio could have taken other than what he had ordered to minimized non-miilitary casualties, based on the given situation.
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Old 2009-07-08, 14:14   Link #124
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Originally Posted by Father Hentai View Post
But also you should question what had the situation escalated. Gregor did shoot at the end but Faldio gave the order. If it comes to Military Court Faldio will possibly be judged guilty.
Judged guilty for what? For refusing to bend over to an enemy who is clearly violating the rules of engagement? Maybe reprimanded but defintely not guilty.


It's an full-fledged national army they are dealing with, not a bunch of insurgents or terrorists.

Quote:
I'm interested in what logically possible yet idealistic solution Faldio could have taken other than what he had ordered to minimized non-miilitary casualties, based on the given situation.
There are always possibilities but so far there are none that look good.
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Old 2009-07-08, 14:57   Link #125
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Maybe if there's someone pulling a DEM would be a way.
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Old 2009-07-08, 16:18   Link #126
Manji Midou
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The one thing that bugs me about the second OP is how much it's focused on Alicia. Sure she's a great character and all, though this opening makes it look like she's the main character and that's it. Welkin has like two one second each scenes.
maybe they kill him off and pair alicia with faldio 0_0
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Old 2009-07-08, 16:23   Link #127
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maybe they kill him off and pair alicia with faldio 0_0
...except that the one scene Welkin does have is pretty obviously a romance scene between him and Alicia. I do like how this is like the rumour that some people just won't let die, though.
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Old 2009-07-08, 18:42   Link #128
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Killing Welkin. LOL

I'm sure the entire game community would say, "**** you," at that point.
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Old 2009-07-08, 18:51   Link #129
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Originally Posted by justavisitor View Post
Tho, when I watched it, I don't feel it's that intense, maybe the funny feeling about an armored train hanging on the fragile bridge got my attention XD. I mean, I am not good at war history, but I doubt anyone used the idea of an armored train before?? Especially the train is sitting on a bridge!! "Even tho I assumed they don't have plane at that time, one lucky round from an enemy's tank and you are going to be history with your beloved train
Armored trains were used extensively throughout World War II, especially on the Eastern Front. There, they were generally used to deliver large-calibre artillery to different parts of the front. They're not meant to engage in direct fire against enemy tanks, so their vulnerability in that regard isn't all that important. The armored train depicted in Valkyria Chronicles is actually fairly accurate.

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Originally Posted by justavisitor View Post
oh yeah, the year is around 1938 in the anime and they have no plane at that time?? I know that they are living in an different world from us, but still, do planes appear in the game??
There is no easy way to analogize the Valkyria setting with a historical year in real life as there are key pieces of technology that is present in one, but not the other. For example, in Valkyria, infantry units don't have machine guns or mortars while such weapons have been crucial to small-level combat since World War I.

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Originally Posted by JagdPanther View Post
And this might've been mentioned already but I probably missed it:

Okay, so the bridge is strong enough to keep the armored train up despite getting a section blown out, but when the main cannon is fired with the cannon car rolled to its side, it should at least complete the cannon rolling over or fracture the rest of the span.

That was my big thing. Plus I like how the train went from 60 to 0 in about 0.1 seconds when the charges went off.
Valkyria Chronicles is enough of a strategy-lite show that any application of real world tactics isn't going to work very well. While I still sort of like the show, that like has been greatly muted by the feeling of inauthenticity.

I was hoping that they would blow up the bridge before the train got within 100m of it. Usually such a heavy vehicle moving at a decent speed would take a kilometer or so of track before it could come to a halt. If it failed to do so on open ground, the train would have derailed, and on a bridge, it would have surely plunged to its doom. Given that this was an armored train, it should have had extra mass and would have been all that much harder to stop.

One of the consequences of the strategy-lite approach is that I don't know if there's any way to even discuss the implications of Faldio's orders. Since Valkyria combat works by totally different rules, who knows what would work or what's a good idea? Heck, under realistic rules, the Gallians would have been slaughtered in this episode, and that would be the end of it.

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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Heh. This new opening shows once again the reason why I avoid anime openings like the plague until they change. Talk about spoilers.

I'm a bit surprised people are actually grumbling about this, isn't it common knowledge that the openings of virtually any anime are riddled with spoilers?
Yes and no. While some openings do give away a bit of plot, they don't usually do so to such a great degree, nor are the parts given away usually that detrimental to the story. As is, there's no longer the slightest dramatic tension in that reveal, and they might as well have put the relevant information in Alicia's introduction.
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Old 2009-07-08, 19:19   Link #130
Father Hentai
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
One of the consequences of the strategy-lite approach is that I don't know if there's any way to even discuss the implications of Faldio's orders. Since Valkyria combat works by totally different rules, who knows what would work or what's a good idea? Heck, under realistic rules, the Gallians would have been slaughtered in this episode, and that would be the end of it.
Not really. As this mission had a suicide status from the beginning the last option they really had was to retreat. Since the detonation did not have the effect on the Artillery train they could have retreated and regroup new.

As we speak of rail artillery here is an example from world war II: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schwerer_Gustav
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Old 2009-07-08, 19:32   Link #131
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
There is no easy way to analogize the Valkyria setting with a historical year in real life as there are key pieces of technology that is present in one, but not the other. For example, in Valkyria, infantry units don't have machine guns or mortars while such weapons have been crucial to small-level combat since World War I.
Lancers can actually be equipped with mortars in the game. Sorry, just being a stickler.
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Old 2009-07-08, 19:46   Link #132
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Originally Posted by Eclipze View Post
I'm interested in what logically possible yet idealistic solution Faldio could have taken other than what he had ordered to minimized non-miilitary casualties, based on the given situation.
Well, they could have also retreated with the help of the Resistance. The mission was a failure in the moment when the bombs did not all detonate and the train was still intact.

By the way. I just found a good example for irresponsible command: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing...n_World_War_II

Feel free to read it and compare the persons who gave permission to bomb Dresden and Faldio who gave order to attack. The example is not 1:1 to VC but it also ends up in discussion if the mission was a war crime or justified.
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Old 2009-07-08, 20:04   Link #133
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
I was hoping that they would blow up the bridge before the train got within 100m of it. Usually such a heavy vehicle moving at a decent speed would take a kilometer or so of track before it could come to a halt. If it failed to do so on open ground, the train would have derailed, and on a bridge, it would have surely plunged to its doom. Given that this was an armored train, it should have had extra mass and would have been all that much harder to stop.
I'm more surprised that the bridge was able to withstand the recoil and still keep the train up.

By your analysis then would the train have jumped dozens of meters forward when the bomb exploded? It seemed the train just jumped up and stopped right in their tracks. With such momentum everyone would've just smashed up against the front of the train (Pretty sure they weren't wearing seatbelts either).

Quote:
Well, they could have also retreated with the help of the Resistance. The mission was a failure in the moment when the bombs did not all detonate and the train was still intact.
Apparently you missed the part where Gregor told the nav guy to locate all enemy positions and then wipe them out entirely. He wasn't planning on letting them go, he was buying time to destroy them all regardless of whether or not they retreated.

Quote:
By the way. I just found a good example for irresponsible command: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing...n_World_War_II

Feel free to read it and compare the persons who gave permission to bomb Dresden and Faldio who gave order to attack. The example is not 1:1 to VC but it also ends up in discussion if the mission was a war crime or justified..
And as 4Tran and others pointed out there's no way of knowing anything so the comparison is moot. That and again the situation's not the same.

There was a snag in the operation and Faldio had to adapt and act quickly before things deteroriated further. To call him irresponsible and the son of satan is ridiculous.

The objective of the mission was to take out the train (at the cost of the squad if possible - Damon's way of killing two birds with one stone).

They achieved it, end of story.
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Old 2009-07-08, 23:49   Link #134
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Originally Posted by Father Hentai View Post
Not really. As this mission had a suicide status from the beginning the last option they really had was to retreat. Since the detonation did not have the effect on the Artillery train they could have retreated and regroup new.
I'm not just talking about a small part of the skirmish, I'm talking about the entire attack to begin with. The Militia and guerilla troops went in against a foe with armor support without any armor or artillery support of their own. Normally, only an idiot would deploy like this because such an attacking force would get slaughtered without achieving anything worthwhile in return.

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Originally Posted by RWBladewing View Post
Lancers can actually be equipped with mortars in the game. Sorry, just being a stickler.
Even without playing the game, I can tell you for certain that those mortars are only a fraction as effective as real ones. Besides, I'm talking purely about the anime .

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By your analysis then would the train have jumped dozens of meters forward when the bomb exploded? It seemed the train just jumped up and stopped right in their tracks. With such momentum everyone would've just smashed up against the front of the train (Pretty sure they weren't wearing seatbelts either).
Not quite. It looked more as if they waited until the train was above the explosives before setting the charges off, and that the explosion stopped the train cold. Normally, such an event would still derail a train, just not as surely as blowing the tracks in front of the locomotive.

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Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
And as 4Tran and others pointed out there's no way of knowing anything so the comparison is moot. That and again the situation's not the same.

There was a snag in the operation and Faldio had to adapt and act quickly before things deteroriated further. To call him irresponsible and the son of satan is ridiculous.

The objective of the mission was to take out the train (at the cost of the squad if possible - Damon's way of killing two birds with one stone).

They achieved it, end of story.
In a way, this is one of the big weaknesses of the strategy-lite approach. In a more realistic show, it'd be fairly intuitive to tell if a character is being brave or foolhardy, and whether they are employing clever tactics or foolish ones. There's no frame of reference to base any of this on, so we're dependent on what the show tells us; and I find that to be a sad way to do things.
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Old 2009-07-09, 01:08   Link #135
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I'm not just talking about a small part of the skirmish, I'm talking about the entire attack to begin with. The Militia and guerilla troops went in against a foe with armor support without any armor or artillery support of their own. Normally, only an idiot would deploy like this because such an attacking force would get slaughtered without achieving anything worthwhile in return.
Well that an idiot gave the order is out of question. Damon is an idiot.
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Old 2009-07-09, 02:50   Link #136
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
I'm not just talking about a small part of the skirmish, I'm talking about the entire attack to begin with. The Militia and guerilla troops went in against a foe with armor support without any armor or artillery support of their own. Normally, only an idiot would deploy like this because such an attacking force would get slaughtered without achieving anything worthwhile in return.
Actually this was one of the favorite 'tactics' of Soviets. Thats why their number of casualties were so big.

On the other hand they were using the so called "Shtrafnyje Bataliony" a group of 'soldiers' made from prisoners. They used very little of equipment on them sending these battalions into the hot and practically suicidal missions. As a prisoners they had very little choice, because Soviets army men were told to shoot at these battalions if they were to disobey. So yeah, a pretty tough situation to be in - enemy shoots you down, your own army men shoots you down as well. On the other hand, if they were to succeed and show bravery they would get their prison time cut or sometimes given a full amnesty.
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Old 2009-07-09, 03:39   Link #137
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I'm pretty sure Gregor would have fired on the Darcsens in any scenario, Faldio or not. He hates them that much.
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Old 2009-07-09, 03:42   Link #138
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Well, they could have also retreated with the help of the Resistance. The mission was a failure in the moment when the bombs did not all detonate and the train was still intact.

By the way. I just found a good example for irresponsible command: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing...n_World_War_II

Feel free to read it and compare the persons who gave permission to bomb Dresden and Faldio who gave order to attack. The example is not 1:1 to VC but it also ends up in discussion if the mission was a war crime or justified.
Fundamentally different, in EVERY way.

1) The allies were already winning the war at that point in time (12 weeks before surrender), and it has been argued, at least based on wiki information, that the bombing of the city was rather unnecessary to begin with. The battle at Fouzen was not only at a much smaller scale, but had a different level of impact in the war compared to that German city. Fouzen was one of the main sources of Ragnites (?) that was important for BOTH Imperials and Gallian forces.

2) The allies did not have some enemy superior cannon/artillery or whatnot that was threatening their forces' retreat and offensive routes, nor did they have a "deadline" to meet before said superior armament would annihilate their forces. Faldio's group did.

3) Do you remember episode 13? The armored train artillery was already destroying the militia tank battalion way OUTSIDE the vicinity of the town. How the heck would Faldio's group be able to retreat in the first place? They can't outrun the artillery's range, and the mines routes are pretty much limited to within the town. They could hide inside the mines for maybe a day or so before they get found by the Imperials and get killed anyway. Once again, Faldio's group retreating DOES NOT ensure that the Darcens would be spared of the artillery attack.

4) As it stands, there were no logically alternatives that would have saved more people than Faldio's solution, which is why I find it amusing that some people are putting the blame on him based on his situation. Again, please remember the EXACT situation he was in.

i) Enemy artillery still functional. Located at a highly advantageous position.
ii) Rosie/Zaka did not have any form of grenades/rpgs in their possession. I doubt gunfire alone could set off the remaining explosives, especially from their positions. The armored train also had it's own anti-personal cannons to protect itself from approaching enemies
iii) Isara's stolen tank was not in range before the first shot was fired.
iv) They had no ways to communicate with each other over long distances.

Given the situation above, there was just no real alternatives. Feel free to correct me if you can somehow find a better solution.
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Old 2009-07-09, 06:50   Link #139
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Faldio quite obviously did the right thing. I'm surprised anyone can see it in any other way.
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Old 2009-07-09, 10:25   Link #140
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I'm pretty sure Gregor would have fired on the Darcsens in any scenario, Faldio or not. He hates them that much.
Yet it's curious that he states,

"you sacrificed the darscens, the innocent civilians"

I mean he treats them like animals yet calls them innocent?
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so we're dependent on what the show tells us; and I find that to be a sad way to do things.
Which is why it's pointless to argue anything else otherwise because we're working within what the show has.

I mean seriously who carries a sniper rifle in a tank?

Quote:
I'm not just talking about a small part of the skirmish, I'm talking about the entire attack to begin with. The Militia and guerilla troops went in against a foe with armor support without any armor or artillery support of their own. Normally, only an idiot would deploy like this because such an attacking force would get slaughtered without achieving anything worthwhile in return.
Hey they did go in and hijack a tank and took out the IMPs armor.
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