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Old 2010-12-27, 07:52   Link #20401
Cao Ni Ma
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Taken together Rosa and Maria would spell rosemary which just happens to be a blue flower which is associated with the virgin Mary. But it really doesn't work either in spanish or italian since they have different names it those languages. Its also a flower used in both weddings and funerals- the more you know!
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Old 2010-12-27, 08:11   Link #20402
m0h
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Originally Posted by Sherringford View Post
If we are pushing it, maybe Rosa stands for rosario and it refers to its religious usage.
Maybe the rosario comparison goes too much overboard. Rosario is considered as male , and it's also a not so rare Italian male name. ( ex. Rosario Fiorello )
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Old 2010-12-27, 08:15   Link #20403
MeoTwister5
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IIRC correctly Rosemary would mean more like "The Rose of Mary", so the subject would be Mary, the object is Rose and the verb is ownership. Therefore, it is Mary's Rose.
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Old 2010-12-27, 08:20   Link #20404
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Originally Posted by m0h View Post
Maybe the rosario comparison goes too much overboard. Rosario is considered as male , and it's also a not so rare Italian male name. ( ex. Rosario Fiorello )
Yeah, I know. That's why I said it would be pushing it a bit. It's funny how many things Rosa can be compared to though, even if some of those comparisons are pushing it a little.

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Taken together Rosa and Maria would spell rosemary which just happens to be a blue flower which is associated with the virgin Mary. But it really doesn't work either in spanish or italian since they have different names it those languages. Its also a flower used in both weddings and funerals- the more you know!
And knowing is half the battle!
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Old 2010-12-27, 09:00   Link #20405
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Old 2010-12-27, 09:15   Link #20406
m0h
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I for one approve the idea of drinking alcohol for the purposes of making up new speculative ideas
Fun fact: no alchool involved. Pure craziness!
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Old 2010-12-27, 09:28   Link #20407
Renall
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Originally Posted by Sherringford View Post
Yes I know we can't do that, but I just find it funny. I mean, look at it while ignoring his motives.

->Insists he wants to enlist no matter what.
->Proclaims it's because he wants to die
->Mentions his skills, which allow him not to be sent to battle, contradicting his previous claim.
->Cheats on his wife
->Came back from the war that he went to without a reason with a pile of gold and a hot woman whom he basically uses as a prisoner
->Woman mysteriously dies, all the gold becomes his
->Woman's daughter kept hidden while he rapes her
->His rape prisoner dies mysteriously. His incestuous child is hidden.
->He makes a gigantic bomb switch for no apparent reason.
This more suggests to me that Kinzo's motivations are completely distorted and stretched to whatever limits Theatergoing Authority allows, because Kinzo's behavior doesn't match his motives at all. I suppose this is the problem for asking for the unfiltered truth of a reputed egomaniacal lunatic.

If stealing the gold was his idea, why would we believe that he really wanted to die? That certainly isn't the sort of suggestion that comes from a walking corpse unable to care about what happens to himself. But if he didn't really want to die, why was he able to tell Will he did? "He deluded himself into believing it was true of his younger self" works, but it still leaves the blank question of why he eventually convinced himself of this and how he did so. And of why Will believed it. And of what else isn't true if Kinzo somehow was able to pull a fast one on Theatergoing Authority.
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Old 2010-12-27, 09:37   Link #20408
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Originally Posted by Vylen View Post
I for one approve the idea of drinking alcohol for the purposes of making up new speculative ideas
May I also add that weed is perfect for the puprose of Enlightenment, Soul- Searching, and the Contemplation of the Universe.
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Old 2010-12-27, 09:44   Link #20409
Sherringford
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
This more suggests to me that Kinzo's motivations are completely distorted and stretched to whatever limits Theatergoing Authority allows, because Kinzo's behavior doesn't match his motives at all. I suppose this is the problem for asking for the unfiltered truth of a reputed egomaniacal lunatic.

If stealing the gold was his idea, why would we believe that he really wanted to die? That certainly isn't the sort of suggestion that comes from a walking corpse unable to care about what happens to himself. But if he didn't really want to die, why was he able to tell Will he did? "He deluded himself into believing it was true of his younger self" works, but it still leaves the blank question of why he eventually convinced himself of this and how he did so. And of why Will believed it. And of what else isn't true if Kinzo somehow was able to pull a fast one on Theatergoing Authority.
Maybe Will didn't believe in it, but went along with it for Lion's sake? I mean it WAS a lot to take in.
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Old 2010-12-27, 09:49   Link #20410
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May I note that he changed his mind during the gun fight?
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Old 2010-12-27, 11:08   Link #20411
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
This more suggests to me that Kinzo's motivations are completely distorted and stretched to whatever limits Theatergoing Authority allows, because Kinzo's behavior doesn't match his motives at all. I suppose this is the problem for asking for the unfiltered truth of a reputed egomaniacal lunatic.
I didn't feel that Kinzo's actions seemed particularly strange. Everything up to his death seemed fairly logical, including the lack of behavior during Lion's timeline.

Kinzo was a puppet leader with no power before going to war. He spent the whole time just being a pet to the people pulling the strings, and wanted out, but due to being a useful puppet he had no way of escaping and was too afraid to go through with killing himself directly. He just wanted to be set free. WW2 gave him an easy way to go through with this, they were losing the war anyway so he'd be sure to die and finally be cut loose from his puppet life.

So, he gets stationed on Rokkenjima, but then meets Beatrice. Falls in love, suddenly he has a reason he wants to keep on living. Keep in mind him cheating on his wife is pretty much a nonissue for him, he never loved her to begin with, it was an arranged marriage he had no control over and by all information given he barely knew her even after their marriage. Not out of character, makes total sense.

He didn't use Beatrice 1 as a prisoner, he hid her from the Italian government. He gave her asylum, not imprisonment.

Beatrice dies in childbirth, he gets Beatrice 2. Beatrice 1 was his only real motivation for living and losing her pushes him over the edge into borderline insanity. Deludes himself into Beatrice 2 being a reincarnation of Beatrice 1, forces himself on her in a fit of lust, she gets pregnant and has a child. She then dies not long after that in an accident due to Rosa. Kinzo doesn't trust himself anymore, so he tries to get one of the family members to raise the kid instead since he doesn't trust himself after what he did to Beatrice 2. Natsuhi is an obvious one since she doesn't appear to be able to have a child.

Natsuhi sends them out, they fall off a cliff and "die". Genji finds the kid, has Nanjo take care of it and then smuggles it off to an orphanage to avoid anyone finding out it's still alive. Later he pulls some strings to get the kid into the house, and nudges Kinzo in the direction of the Epitaph since Kinzo hates his family so much for being greedy and ruthless and hateful people and doesn't want that sort of person inheriting the family. He sets up the epitaph, and sets up the bomb as a trump card: If he can't find a worthy heir, then screw heirs, he'll just destroy everything and there will be nothing left to inherit, those blasted kids don't deserve a cent of it anyways. Beatrice 3 solves epitaph, Kinzo names them his heir, and gives them the choice of what to do with the inheritance, Kinzo doesn't need it anymore and has done everything he wanted to do with the rest of his life. Then Kinzo dies.

All of this makes perfect sense. What DOESN'T make sense is Yasu's motivations themselves. The events that occur in the final two years preceding the Epitaph Murders are a blank and Yasu has a massive amount of apathy if anything, why would she bother killing everyone? It's not like Kinzo specifically asked her to do that, he just thanked her for letting him redeem himself and keeled over.

So whose idea WAS it to kill everyone then, and WHY?
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Old 2010-12-27, 11:48   Link #20412
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The point is, the story itself suggests Kinzo's story may have been distorted. This isn't a theory we have, it's a direct piece of anomalous dialogue in ep7 itself that didn't appear anywhere in Kinzo's story and couldn't have appeared in the story as Kinzo told it. We can't ignore that, and the holes in his motives only make it more curious.
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Old 2010-12-27, 12:51   Link #20413
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On an unrelated note, I've had the time to read a list of the reds in the EPs. Reading it with what we know now in mind makes one realize how much red text is the mystery equivalent of magic scenes.
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Old 2010-12-27, 13:26   Link #20414
zorahk
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I don't think overanalyzing any of the names is going to help that much.
but, just for fun:
金蔵 = treasure house
絵羽 = winged picture
蔵臼 = cellar mortar
夏妃 = summer princess
朱志香 = smells of bloody/scarlet intention (lol I'm taking this way out of context to make any sense of it and in b4 jessica is culprit)
理御 = honorable reason
秀吉 = excellent luck (wow lol)
譲治 = well this one's kind of confusing, maybe to transfer reign/rule? kind of hard to guess the meaning of this one
留弗夫 = probably meaningless, the second character is pretty useless. If taken strongly out of context can mean "man who detains/stops the dollar", but that's with using a questionable meaning of the second character. honestly I'm not very confident on this one though if ep 7 is true it makes sense that way!
霧江 = fog bay
戦人 = warrior, someone who fights, battler
縁寿 = border/connection of longevity?
明日夢 = tomorrow's dream
楼座 = watchtower seat
真里亞 = comes after/ranks after the village of truth (ranks after eh? who comes in rank before maria in the ushiromiya table?)


and of course 右代宮 (right (as in direction) generation palace)

Last edited by zorahk; 2010-12-27 at 15:54.
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Old 2010-12-27, 15:01   Link #20415
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Originally Posted by Qaenyin View Post
He didn't use Beatrice 1 as a prisoner, he hid her from the Italian government. He gave her asylum, not imprisonment.
Now this doesn't really makes sense. Do you really think that all the fascists were persecuted after war to the point were they would also look for the relatives?

Beatrice was simply the daughter of a high ranked official, she had nothing to fear from the new government and no one was looking for her to kill her or imprison her as far as we know.

In addition a man like Kinzo who could buy a whole island and had many connections could have forged a new identity for her. I mean if Genji managed to do that for Yasu, why Kinzo couldn't? At the very least he could have done that for Beatrice2. So there's really no excuse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Qaenyin View Post
Kinzo doesn't trust himself anymore, so he tries to get one of the family members to raise the kid instead since he doesn't trust himself after what he did to Beatrice 2.
This is not a fact, this is your interpretation. We don't know what are Kinzo's motivations for this. And actually if Kinzo already regretted what he did Genji wouldn't have lied to him for so many years.
Kinzo obviously decided to go with a different plan for Lion but that doesn't mean it was because "he didn't trust himself".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Qaenyin View Post
He sets up the epitaph, and sets up the bomb as a trump card: If he can't find a worthy heir, then screw heirs, he'll just destroy everything and there will be nothing left to inherit, those blasted kids don't deserve a cent of it anyways.
That's not what was told in the EP7 tea party.

first off, it is said that the japanese military themselves stacked the explosives there and set up the auto destruction mechanism (lol...). We can assume that Kinzo made some modifications since I can't see how some military could think about putting the switch on a grandfather clock.

Second, it is implied that Kinzo had that thing ready to explode at any time, not because of heir related problems, but because of his risky business moves. Basically he made a lot of very risky and reckless investments (this we knew it from EP1), if they worked, all good, if he failed he would blow everything up (again lol...).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Qaenyin View Post
Beatrice 3 solves epitaph, Kinzo names them his heir, and gives them the choice of what to do with the inheritance, Kinzo doesn't need it anymore and has done everything he wanted to do with the rest of his life. Then Kinzo dies.

All of this makes perfect sense.
-Well... the timing of Kinzo's death was a bit theatrical to my tastes.
-The whole deal with the bomb is ridiculous in a lot of different ways.
-Kinzo would still be a crazy and lunatic villain if he did half of all that stuff.
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Old 2010-12-27, 15:15   Link #20416
Cao Ni Ma
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Originally Posted by zorahk View Post
Names
Regarding the one with Maria, its Ange if she's there and Battler if she isnt
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Old 2010-12-27, 16:06   Link #20417
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Quote:
If stealing the gold was his idea, why would we believe that he really wanted to die? That certainly isn't the sort of suggestion that comes from a walking corpse unable to care about what happens to himself. But if he didn't really want to die, why was he able to tell Will he did? "He deluded himself into believing it was true of his younger self" works, but it still leaves the blank question of why he eventually convinced himself of this and how he did so. And of why Will believed it. And of what else isn't true if Kinzo somehow was able to pull a fast one on Theatergoing Authority.
But then, EP7 Tea Party. Reliable it is not.
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Old 2010-12-27, 16:42   Link #20418
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Again though, what's the trick to this authority if people can distort the truth? That they have to actually believe it? That arguably makes it worse than any other method used in the story. For instance, it would appear to be useless on somebody like Maria by this interpretation. But Maria is actually the person from whom Will seems to get the most useful information out of the whole thing... so I guess not?

Unless it's one of those "Maria is actually quite rational and doesn't truly believe everything she claims to, therefore her perspective is itself quite rational once you peel back the metaphor" things. Which might be interesting.
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This story is a redacted confession.

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Old 2010-12-27, 16:47   Link #20419
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Don't we actually see some "magic" stuff happening during Maria's theatergoing flashback?
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Old 2010-12-27, 17:17   Link #20420
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I'm still not convinced that's what's pulled on Kinzo, Maria, and Jessica is at all the same as Claire's theatre thing and the EP7 Tea Party.
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