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Old 2010-12-27, 17:54   Link #20421
delita-umw-
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Maybe the theatre-going authority is exactly like what it sounds like: a theatrical show. Kinda like how playwrights are able to have their own takes on classical works, maybe this authority works in a similar manner. I'm thinking that at the base level, there are certain truths that must be stated in the story, but characterizations and motivations can be completely warped if the "playwright" so chooses to. Which is really to say, I think the theatre authority can only be trusted so far as the bare minimum of facts: Kinzo was on Rokkenjima during the war, Italians came on a sub with gold, Kinzo met Beatrice, and in the ensuing fight between the Italians and the Japanese, Kinzo made away with the gold. If there's any trick to the authority, maybe its that once the subject is broached, the target cannot avoid answering those base truths (without Bernkastel's intervention of course)/
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Old 2010-12-27, 18:02   Link #20422
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The point is, the story itself suggests Kinzo's story may have been distorted. This isn't a theory we have, it's a direct piece of anomalous dialogue in ep7 itself that didn't appear anywhere in Kinzo's story and couldn't have appeared in the story as Kinzo told it. We can't ignore that, and the holes in his motives only make it more curious.
What we have is a line of dialogue that very strongly implies that Kinzo set off the confrontation.

Let's start with what we know, then apply that new information, right? So let's say that Kinzo is telling the truth regarding his personal motivations. If we accept that, then how do we reconcile that red guts scene?

Simply put, Kinzo only truly felt alive when he was with Beatrice1. Prior to that, his entire existence was stagnant, no initiative, no anything, really. We already know that Kinzo is half-crazed and extremely fond of long-shot bets, and that he also has incredible luck.

So why not spark the fight between the Italians and the Japanese, planning to pick up the pieces and Beatrice at the very end, and take it all for himself? With that gold, and that woman, he would be able to live his new Life to it's fullest, free of the shackles of the family elders, and with the woman that he loves.

The number one reason why Beatrice1 was hidden was not due to her political status. It was because of the fact he was already married. Had he divorced his wife, things would have gotten extremely messy, and he wouldn't have been able to make the moves he made in order to revive the Ushiromiya family. Isn't a large part of the business Kinzo was involved in based around trust? Something like a messy divorce case would have destroyed Kinzo's chances of forging connections, even with that 100 tons of gold as collateral. We've already acknowledged the practical limitations of that much gold as actual money in the first place.

So, why not start his new life with the woman he loves and the shitload of gold by eliminating any and all obstacles to obtaining all of that for himself?

Actually, this begs an interesting question, regarding the Japanese Military filling the island with explosions:

If the Japanese government did so after the whole Italian slaughter thing (Kinzo referenced several times in the story how the place was under equipped and under stocked), the only apparent chance they had to do so, then why not find all that gold for themselves? The explosives story is ridiculous and implausible for a lot of reasons.

Because of known fact X, Y is impossible.

The Japanese government seeded the island with explosives as it was a critical military base =/= The Rokkenjimma base was something negligible and forgotten about.

If we reconcile the two claims, we can only do so by saying the stocking could only have happened after the confrontation Kinzo told us about. But by then the gold was already unloaded into the base properly. And there is no way the Japanese government would have allowed Kinzo to obtain permanent possession of that gold, either by means of moving it, or outright not allowing Kinzo to buy the island outright. With special emphasis on the former. Remember, at the time Rokkenjimma was still supposed to be within the National Defense Zone or whatever, so the former was certainly feasible.

Certainly, there are ways around it. But the idea of any government allowing that much gold to sit around gathering dust without moving on it is simply beyond absurd.
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Old 2010-12-27, 18:06   Link #20423
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As it's beyond absurd that the military would forget about the existence of 900 tons of explosives.
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Old 2010-12-27, 18:10   Link #20424
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Originally Posted by delita-umw- View Post
Maybe the theatre-going authority is exactly like what it sounds like: a theatrical show. Kinda like how playwrights are able to have their own takes on classical works, maybe this authority works in a similar manner. I'm thinking that at the base level, there are certain truths that must be stated in the
I tend to agree, but the metaphor I'd use is that the Tea Party and the Theatre-going (i.e. Observer) Authority are the same. That is, the Tea Party was yet another example of the "Observer" Authority.

I know that in the English translation its just 'Theatre Going' but in EP6 TIPS for Featherine it says that she is a 観劇と戯曲と傍観の魔女。 A Theatre-Going and Play and Spectator Witch. In terms of Spectator, I take it to mean she is an 'Observer.' The same kind of 'Observer' in the Umineko Knox Rules #9: 観測者は自分の判断・解釈を主張することが許される。 "Observers are permitted their assert their own judgments and interpretation."

So it's not like she's a character in the mystery with her own observation, but I think EP7 was brought up to portray the "Truth" from an outside biased observer point of view. And of course the conclusion is that it too cannot reach the full truth... at least by itself.


If I had to say what was going on in Rokkenjima Prime, then perhaps certain biased sources of information were leaked out. Like maybe more information about Kyrie and Rudolf's business dealings were found, some story about how Ushiromiyas love tossing people off cliffs, more information on what Kinzo was doing during the war... and Eva's story was published. And thus we get EP7...
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Old 2010-12-27, 18:11   Link #20425
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As it's beyond absurd that the military would forget about the existence of 900 tons of explosives.
That part isnt necessarily true.

What would they do about it? It's not like the occupation forces would allow them to take it back after the Treaty of San Francisco.

100 tons of gold are more enticing than 900 tons of explosives, and at that point, Rokkenjimma was still considered a secure location when they were honeycombing the island. That they would conveniently leave it untouched so Kinzo could build a god damn VIP room around it is what's frankly bizarre.
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Old 2010-12-27, 18:23   Link #20426
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That part isnt necessarily true.

What would they do about it? It's not like the occupation forces would allow them to take it back after the Treaty of San Francisco.

100 tons of gold are more enticing than 900 tons of explosives, and at that point, Rokkenjimma was still considered a secure location when they were honeycombing the island. That they would conveniently leave it untouched so Kinzo could build a god damn VIP room around it is what's frankly bizarre.
They probably never had a chance to check the island out because of the US Occupation that happened at the end of the war. Whom we're told Kinzo also had thick connections with. Maybe there was too much political chaos going on in Japan to do anything about the island at the time he bought it?
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Old 2010-12-27, 18:26   Link #20427
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TehChron... the point here is not

"why the military would want 900 tons of explosives"
but
"why the military would leave 900 tons of explosives in the hands of a private citizen"


They'd rather let the Americans have them, don't you think?
Is it really possible that you cannot understand the political implications of such a careless and irresponsible decision? If it becomes public that the military made such a ridiculous blunder some head would definitely roll.


it's as if the U.S. military forgot a nuclear bomb in a lot owned by a redneck. What would they say if that exploded then? "Whoops" ?
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Old 2010-12-27, 18:32   Link #20428
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
TehChron... the point here is not

"why the military would want 900 tons of explosives"
but
"why the military would leave 900 tons of explosives in the hands of a private citizen"


They'd rather let the Americans have them, don't you think?
Is it really possible that you cannot understand the political implications of such a careless and irresponsible decision? If it becomes public that the military made such a ridiculous blunder some head would definitely roll.
What does that distinction have to do with anything? I'm proposing that based on the fact that the Gold remains on the island, the explosives story is impossible.

And, for that matter, why would the army want the Americans to have the explosives that are left on a deserted island? Why go through the effort of even recovering them when no one knows about them?

Setting that aside, isn't a great deal of this story based on people making careless and irresponsible decisions? It's nothing new, the only constant motivating factors we've been presented with are love and greed, not competence.
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Old 2010-12-27, 18:39   Link #20429
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The main problem with the red guts line is it seems to characterize the person to whom Kinzo is speaking (or rather, the person speaking to him) differently from the officer's portrayal in Kinzo's story, where he was a greedy schemer of the exact sort he appears to be accusing Kinzo of being in the dialogue.

Now, we don't actually know who this person is, but odds-on betting seems to point toward a Japanese soldier of some sort, and there was really only one of them introduced in any meaningful role.
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Old 2010-12-27, 18:41   Link #20430
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The main problem with the red guts line is it seems to characterize the person to whom Kinzo is speaking (or rather, the person speaking to him) differently from the officer's portrayal in Kinzo's story, where he was a greedy schemer of the exact sort he appears to be accusing Kinzo of being in the dialogue.

Now, we don't actually know who this person is, but odds-on betting seems to point toward a Japanese soldier of some sort, and there was really only one of them introduced in any meaningful role.
And also one obsessed with following Military protocol to cover up his fear.

"As I could see their rage covering up their cowardice, the reverse was true etc etc" or something like that. It could have been him reacting that way out of fear of getting his hands dirty rather than any code of honor.

The scene is really ambiguous enough to allow for either interpretation.
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Old 2010-12-27, 18:46   Link #20431
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And, for that matter, why would the army want the Americans to have the explosives that are left on a deserted island? Why go through the effort of even recovering them when no one knows about them?
Are you serious? Does it happen to you to remember any case in which the military would leave explosives unattended? What about terrorism prevention?
You simply don't leave mass destruction weapons on their own, period!


Quote:
Setting that aside, isn't a great deal of this story based on people making careless and irresponsible decisions? It's nothing new, the only constant motivating factors we've been presented with are love and greed, not competence.
It's a big deal because it questions the credibility of this story.
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Old 2010-12-27, 18:52   Link #20432
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Now, we don't actually know who this person is, but odds-on betting seems to point toward a Japanese soldier of some sort, and there was really only one of them introduced in any meaningful role.
Well of course it was Yamamoto.
There is however the possibility that the answer you see in the red gut scene was just a spurt of the moment. He hated Kinzo so he couldn't miss the chance to insult him, he didn't actually think that he could pull such a move so he rather thought about covering his ass against martial laws first.

Maybe he was later persuaded by Kinzo about the feasibility of this plan and then his greed had the best of him.


Funny thing is... in EP4 Kinzo said that he took "the test" himself once.

In order to save two sacrifice the remaining:

1) Yourself
2) The person you love
3) everyone else


Maybe it referred to that day and he chose option 3...
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Old 2010-12-27, 18:53   Link #20433
TehChron
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Are you serious? Does it happen to you to remember any case in which the military would leave explosives unattended? What about terrorism prevention?
You simply don't leave mass destruction weapons on their own, period!
It's a fucking trope. A common and age-old one. Quit being absurd. Ryukishi's already abused the hell out of them, so why not rely on the implausibly inept government cover up one as well?

How many successful thriller stories, movies or books or whatever, rely on some villainous individual somehow getting through government security to obtain a weapon of mass destruction or other Apocalyptic MacGuffin?

Please.


Quote:
It's a big deal because it questions the credibility of this story.
And Ninja Master Shkannon doesn't already do that?

Like I said, the Gold's existence is much simpler, and makes it a hell of a lot more obvious rather than overthinking the status of the explosives.

All roads lead to rome, after all.
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Old 2010-12-27, 18:54   Link #20434
delita-umw-
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@Kylon
Is it true that during the Battler/Ange scene, Ange references someone talking about TV news claiming Kyrie had gangster relations? Cause if so, your thought process makes even more sense. Man, I feel like I should have dedicated more time to studying Japanese, so hard to keep up with you guys =P

@Jan-Poo
Maybe the island was one of which only a few top officials knew about and there was almost no documentation for it. Given how chaotic Japan was at the time, it wouldn't seem that surprising if all information about Rokkenjima's status as a former military base disappeared just prior to the occupation via death/suicide of top officials who would know about it and careless burning of documents referencing it.

Not saying that this really resolves anything, just that it's possible (if unlikely) that during the time of the sale, no one in the government knew about the explosives.
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Old 2010-12-27, 18:57   Link #20435
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It's a fucking trope. A common and age-old one. Quit being absurd. Ryukishi's already abused the hell out of them, so why not rely on the implausibly inept government cover up one as well?

How many successful thriller stories, movies or books or whatever, rely on some villainous individual somehow getting through government security to obtain a weapon of mass destruction or other Apocalyptic MacGuffin?

Please.
No I say "please", dude.

We aren't talking about an evil mastermind that managed through his genius to get some huge weapon here. We are talking about a man who managed to get a huge weapon because the military just forgot them in a secluded island!!!

Name a single serious story where this happened then we can talk about "tropes".


And then again some stuff can be acceptable in a superheroes show for kids, but that doesn't mean it's acceptable in a murder mystery story.
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Old 2010-12-27, 19:03   Link #20436
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Are you serious? Does it happen to you to remember any case in which the military would leave explosives unattended? What about terrorism prevention?
You simply don't leave mass destruction weapons on their own, period!
Well to be fair it's a secret base. If Kinzo's not the only person left who knows about the base only a few other people high up in the military should know about it besides him. Most officials in the Japanese government shouldn't know about it at all. They have plenty of reason to turn the other cheek too because they didn't control the situation well at all and they could get in even more trouble than Kinzo would.
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Old 2010-12-27, 19:05   Link #20437
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No I say "please", dude.

We aren't talking about an evil mastermind that managed through his genius to get some huge weapon here. We are talking about a man who managed to get a huge weapon because the military just forgot them in a secluded island!!!

Name a single serious story where this happened then we can talk about "tropes".
Abandoning something doesn't mean it was forgotten. You have Okonogi's little "protecting world peace" line at the end of Episode 6's Tea Party, after all.

I simply outlined a reason for why the explosives would be abandoned. And then pointed out that those kinds of instances are commonplace in fiction.

And all this alongside presenting an interpretation which renders this entire discussion moot.

Why should I bother? Going through countless stories which I probably have never read or can't be bothered to just to satisfy one ridiculous demand because you're unwilling to accept a relatively common suspension of disbelief?

That's your problem, I still think that the explosives were never put there by the Japanese government to begin with.
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Old 2010-12-27, 19:07   Link #20438
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Are you serious? Does it happen to you to remember any case in which the military would leave explosives unattended? What about terrorism prevention?
You simply don't leave mass destruction weapons on their own, period!
The military does have a history of leaving landmines and minor explosives that are too troublesome to pick up just sort of lying around. The difference being that they don't remove those because they got no idea where they are and they are more trouble than worth.

But in Rokkenjima's case, it's completely different. Yeah I don't see the Japanese government going "yeah we are going to even stop having an army. By the way we are going to show how much we care about this peace treaty by selling our island that's still full of explosives to a James Bond villain."

It's either a clue or Ryuukishi just failed his high school politics class.

Quote:
It's a fucking trope. A common and age-old one. Quit being absurd. Ryukishi's already abused the hell out of them, so why not rely on the implausibly inept government cover up one as well?

How many successful thriller stories, movies or books or whatever, rely on some villainous individual somehow getting through government security to obtain a weapon of mass destruction or other Apocalyptic MacGuffin?

Please.
Difference being that this isn't just implausible. It's plain impossible. Shkanon is possible if we assume that Jessica is a fucking moron, but this requires us to believe that the entire government is made of fucking morons. Hell not just the Japanese government, but the American one that was in charge of overseeing the disposal of the Japanese army after WWII.

"Captain Bay, they just sold a base full of explosives to a civilian."
"...DAMN IT. I CAN'T BELIEVE I WAS OUTBID."
"...What?"
"Uh nothing. MOVING ON."

In fiction there is usually a reason as for why the James Bond villain got a random weapon. Here it isn't even handwaved. We are just supposed to accept something very very implausible.

I assume that there is nothing too complicated here. Ryuukishi just screwed up. But it's still a very glaring flaw. It's way, way past willing suspension of disbelief. It's even worse than Shkanon.
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Old 2010-12-27, 19:09   Link #20439
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Just as glaring is the fact that the Japanese would just leave the gold there rather than moving it to a more secure location while they still controlled the waters there.

And yes, Sherry. It is, that's why Im saying that reason is entirely plausible, it may be bad writing, but it's entirely plausible.
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Old 2010-12-27, 19:18   Link #20440
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I really don't think it is that far-fetched to believe that the handful of officials that knew about the secret base died in the war, or ran away and didn't care about the extra explosives.
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