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Old 2011-01-01, 16:27   Link #21041
Sherringford
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Originally Posted by Glass Heart View Post
Ok, thanks !

And, if you're okay with it, could you tell me (in spoilers) who are the culprits and why they did it, please ?
Culprit: Kyrie

Accomplices: Battler & Rudolf

Motive: Awwww it's so cute, you think there is a motive.
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Old 2011-01-01, 16:32   Link #21042
Klashikari
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I personally don't think Bernkastel's solution was the truth to be honest.
The reason is that she made is purely as a game for Beato and BATTLER.

In fact, Bern definitely altered the gameboard, to the point you can't really connect it with the other gameboards (there is no way you could state in red before that there is no way other people could use a master key that didn't belong to them etc).

Especially that: In Bern's gameboard, Battler is painted as one of the culprits, not as an accomplices (stated by the selection panel). And a culprit is defined by Bern as "murderer".
Both statements going against Virgilia's red back in Episode 5.

That said, I'm not saying the solution of Episode 7 is entierely impossible, but the whole "Battler, Kyrie and Rudolf" from Episode 8 is not really valid.
Especially how BATTLER and Beato were then inviting everyone of the party to try Bern's challenge.
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Old 2011-01-01, 16:37   Link #21043
witchfan
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Battler is only superficially identified as a culprit, though. And I don't know what to think of this gameboard. Either we consider it the truth... or we simply accept whatever happened that day is a goddamned catbox that nobody will ever open.
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Old 2011-01-01, 16:45   Link #21044
Sherringford
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Originally Posted by witchfan View Post
Battler is only superficially identified as a culprit, though. And I don't know what to think of this gameboard. Either we consider it the truth... or we simply accept whatever happened that day is a goddamned catbox that nobody will ever open.

You know what's inside the box? One of those goddamn clown dolls that jump at you when you open them.
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Old 2011-01-01, 16:59   Link #21045
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As far as I'm reading this part again, it was definitely just a ploy to buy time so she can manipulate Chibi Ange in a certain way.
The essence of it wasn't even part of Beato's game, it was a little game from Bern using the original premise.

The fact it went STRAIGHT to the facts with zero build up is another indication it was just for the kicks. Neither BATTLER or Beato reacted to the solution or so: it was basically them taking our roles, especially how they were following closely Bern's rules and the purple properties.
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Old 2011-01-01, 17:09   Link #21046
Glass Heart
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Originally Posted by Sherringford View Post
Culprit: Kyrie

Accomplices: Battler & Rudolf

Motive: Awwww it's so cute, you think there is a motive.
Ok, so it's the money.

The mystery was way better than its resolution it seems.

Quote:
Battler is only superficially identified as a culprit, though.
But didn't Ryukushi told us in the story that the detective can't be the culprit, by the way ?
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Old 2011-01-01, 17:19   Link #21047
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But didn't Ryukushi told us in the story that the detective can't be the culprit, by the way ?
Excellent question!
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Old 2011-01-01, 18:15   Link #21048
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If you want to be technical, Ange is pretty clearly "the detective" in ep8, for whatever sense that matters. Will and Dlanor didn't seem too keen on that regardless.

And reality... doesn't have detectives or rules anyway.
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Old 2011-01-01, 18:30   Link #21049
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Quote:
Spoiler for spoiler:
Spoiler for Answer:


Quote:
Spoiler for Witchfan's questions:
In order, No, I don't know, sort of but EP7 really confirmed it all anyway according to Ryukishi, Yes.

Quote:
In the end, what did we really learn about the truth of those days? It's an unsatisfying mystery, with unsatisfying culprits and a horrible, horrible motive, that received enough ornamentation to actually make it seem worthwhile. It's a pretty-looking cake made of horse dung, and we all got Battler'd.
Dude, real-life is not a mystery. It is not supposed to make a satisfying story that follows rules. What happened on Rokkenjima was a senseless tragedy, and like real tragedies, there is no beauty to be found in reconstructing it. There's a reason characters who were trying to piece together the incident as a game were depicted as evil. There's a reason we were called theatregoing witches.

Quote:
And reality... doesn't have detectives or rules anyway.
This.

Honestly, very few of the complaints I've seen strike me as valid. The only part of this I dislike is
Spoiler for bitching:
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Old 2011-01-01, 18:36   Link #21050
witchfan
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Well, to give a serious answer, I think the confusion here stems from two different definitions of culprit. Battler-kun is not the culprit in the sense that he is not a murderer, but supposedly you can label him a "culprit" because he was sort of an accomplice. And yeah, Battler isn't really the detective in this EP...

But anyway, you blaspheme by speaking of reality.

Quote:
Dude, real-life is not a mystery. It is not supposed to make a satisfying story that follows rules. What happened on Rokkenjima was a senseless tragedy, and like real tragedies, there is no beauty to be found in reconstructing it. There's a reason characters who were trying to piece together the incident as a game were depicted as evil. There's a reason we were called theatregoing witches.
The sad thing is, I think you're right. We weren't supposed to think of this as a mystery. The episodes up until now were mostly a red herring. There is no dramatic motive, intricate plan, or anything, really. The sadder thing is, I don't know why Ryukishi is doing this. If he wanted "life isn't a mystery" to be a message, he would not have written this work the way he did.

Last edited by witchfan; 2011-01-01 at 18:59.
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Old 2011-01-01, 18:40   Link #21051
Sherringford
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Dude, real-life is not a mystery. It is not supposed to make a satisfying story that follows rules. What happened on Rokkenjima was a senseless tragedy, and like real tragedies, there is no beauty to be found in reconstructing it. There's a reason characters who were trying to piece together the incident as a game were depicted as evil. There's a reason we were called theatregoing witches.
That doesn't deny his point at all. "We were trying to make sense of the story that was told to us but we shouldn't have" is not a good story.

It's fine if those points don't bother you, but saying those complaints are not valid is a bit biased.

I don't know what you read the story for(that's a lie I do but let's pretend we don't talk to each other for the sake of this argument) but I read it for the plot, and so did many people.

By the time we got to the "TRAGEDYYYYY" plot we had already invested enough time on it that it was a matter of "read it up to now, might as well keep reading it."

Episode 1 promises a mystery right at the end when Battler swears to use mystery tricks to disprove Beatrice's existence. Episode 5 reinforces this notion. Episode 7 says that "nooo but that's evil i_i"

If it doesn't bother you, great. But the plot wasn't satisfying to many people for a reason.

EDIT: To sum up my point, "I think that fiction is supposed to be fun and not pretentious."

EDIT2: Alternatively, my point is "I came here to see a show not to get lectured on why seeing shows is bad."
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Old 2011-01-01, 18:58   Link #21052
witchfan
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I think your point is, simply, you expected a mystery novel. I did too, and I think almost all of us did - and, as the present shows, some people are able to accept this is not a mystery (like Klashikari or possibly AuraTwilight), while some people are not (like you and I). It's just an odd conclusion like that.

At the very least, we can't argue this wasn't discussed. Our choice has always been between anti-fantasy and anti-mystery. Perhaps it's our poor understanding of these terms that caused us to read this series entirely in the wrong way.
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Old 2011-01-01, 19:12   Link #21053
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At least the majority of the series was a non-standard mystery - I felt that everything up until EP7 was very entertaining from a mystery perspective. However, I also enjoyed the metaworld and its character greatly, and EP8 appears to be a magnificent finish to everything. If you can't accept that this is not a mystery, I'm not saying to ignore EP8, but treat it as it is: an epilogue after the mystery was concluded in EP7.

Are there lingering questions? Yes.
Do we have answers? Overwhelmingly, yes.
Are they correct? We probably will never know.

But I'm personally completely fine with that.
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Old 2011-01-01, 19:13   Link #21054
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The sad thing is, I think you're right. We weren't supposed to think of this as a mystery. The episodes up until now were mostly a red herring. There is no dramatic motive, intricate plan, or anything, really. The sadder thing is, I don't know why Ryukishi is doing this. If he wanted "life isn't a mystery" to be a message, he would not have written this work the way he did.
I felt it was pretty obvious by now that Battler back then was in the wrong. Let's remember that it wasn't Beatrice who decided to keep repeating things like this, but BATTLER in search of HIS OWN PERSONAL SATISFACTION. He was the one (according to the Meta-Perspective) who kicked off the game that tortured his family and loved ones for all eternity.

It's not wrong to want to know the truth of things, but when you let it consume you at the cost of all else, it becomes something evil. I think that's one of the major messages of the work, and it's why magic exists in this world, and needs love to be seen.

The mystery element is relevant though, as it's pretty much a manifestation of Yasu's heart, and if not for the mystery game, the culprit wouldn't have an oppurtunity to go "LOL FLIPPIN OUT AND MURDERIN' BITCHES."

That's why Yasu feels the way she does. She demonizes herself and ultimately commits suicide because if not for her actions, she thinks, the tragedy wouldn't have happened. And if Battler hadn't done what he did, she wouldn't of needed to do that.

Quote:
Alternatively, my point is "I came here to see a show not to get lectured on why seeing shows is bad."
Congrats, you're a theatregoing witch.

You asshole.

And yea, the story was never mystery. It had a mystery in it, but it was never once billed as a mystery. Only VILLAINS called it a mystery; the author used the terms anti-fantasy and anti-mystery, and it ended up being both of these things.
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Old 2011-01-01, 19:13   Link #21055
Klashikari
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Actually, I was one of those who were ardent vanguard supporters of rules establishment ever since Episode 2 red truth.
I always have seen Umineko as a melting pot of various genre, and it would be a lie if I didn't expect a mystery genre.

As I already stated, I wasn't expecting that result and I was first ticked off (my mindset was almost a ctrl+C/V of Chibi Ange), but the way how Episode 8 delivered everything slightly changed what actually made me enjoy the series form the beginning (not saying the mystery became secondary, rather the enjoyment part -for me- was naturally focused on something different at times with previous episodes.

The fun fact is that the nature of the cat box is the same as the content of the cat box: it is itself not even defined considering how it was done.
I would rather wait for any potential supplement content before tagging Umineko into a Fantasy/Mystery/Simple tale category.

By itself, this process is also interesting.
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Old 2011-01-01, 19:24   Link #21056
Naichi
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I'm just speculating, but maybe the two series of Umineko were separated into the two possible viewpoints, anti-mystery and anti-fantasy. Maybe the anti-fantasy part all occured in episodes 1-4, and the mystery fans are supposed to look there to find their answers. Ryukishi already said he wouldn't give us the actual answer, but he did say it is solvable using the clues given in those episodes. Episode 7 said Battler was an accomplice to the crime, even though he did not kill. This can be applied to the red truth saying that the servants weren't murderers. Maybe there are just infinite pairs of culprits you can choose for the story, and it's up to you to decide your truth like he said.

In contrast, I think episodes 5-8 were the anti-mystery approach. He made the story tie into the real world and have a real world ending. The culprits Battler, Kyrie, and Rudolf are probably Ange's truth and not the real truth. It's just what he needed to provide to finish the anti-mystery viewpoint.

Of course, maybe I'm just trying too hard to justify Ryukishi.
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Old 2011-01-01, 19:27   Link #21057
Arachanox
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Originally Posted by Sherringford View Post
...Also very important, is the rumor about Will becoming rich and then becoming a badminton player real?
I've been putting some lines into Google Translate for fun, trying to make sense of it, from the Tea Party.

...surprisingly, Will is in real estate and indeed does play Badminton (Lion is with him as well ).
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Old 2011-01-01, 19:28   Link #21058
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Will made his pimp smile when Bern and co read what was his whereabouts.
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Old 2011-01-01, 19:30   Link #21059
witchfan
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Let's be objective here, though. It isn't a mystery, I grant you this much. But this doesn't mean the work is agreeable. The question of whether we read the story in the correct way, and whether the story was written in the correct way are different. For example, me and Sherringford criticize the story exactly because it deceives the reader regarding its genre (and, to be fair, very few people here could've said they recognize this is not a mystery before EP8 was out - I'm not even sure you, Klash and Aura, are part of them, but feel free to correct me). The question is then, are we at fault for not understanding Umineko, or is Umineko at fault for misleading us? If we subscribe to the former position, we should ask another question: does the shift from themes of mystery and fantasy to anti-mystery and anti-fantasy hold literary value, or should Umineko have remained a mystery novel?
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Old 2011-01-01, 19:34   Link #21060
Biichama
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
And yea, the story was never mystery. It had a mystery in it, but it was never once billed as a mystery. Only VILLAINS called it a mystery; the author used the terms anti-fantasy and anti-mystery, and it ended up being both of these things.
Ryukishi says it at the very beginning: "No Knox, No Dine, No Fair."
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