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Old 2011-01-02, 03:32   Link #21101
alviam099
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And since she doesn't know his address...well...bottles
It certainly is good considering that the whole Japan will know it and he will surely rush it's his family ofc .. like this one

Ep7 is a downfall for me really

I guess that the Love Duel is a judgement where either Yasu choose who he/she wants to stay Kanon or Shanon ? What a good mental problem
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Old 2011-01-02, 04:17   Link #21102
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
You're right, I should be clear; if it were just George or Jessica, it'd be pretty much guaranteed to be George, so nothing outrageous would happen. But because of Battler, we have his status as her true love versus George's proposal, so shit gets out of hand.
Indeed, we agree on this part.

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
And of course she wasn't willing to move on. Yasu was "willing to settle" but a part of her always loved Battler more. In an "ideal" scenario where Battler didn't return to the island, she would've settled for pining for Battler secretly forever while living with George. Yasu's kind of emotionally unbalanced and a bit out of her mind, and her fatalist attitude means she just sort of puts up with whatever the dice land on regardless of her personal feelings.
Well, Yasu's own words were that she was abandoning herself to the roulette, and that she planned to "obey its ruling". Also, we cannot tell how deep her feelings for George were. We did know Battler was her #1 choice, but would she dump George after the roulette had decided? She said she'd obey it.

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
You're misunderstanding. "Willing to settle" is not the same as "Willing to move on." On top of that, George didn't propose until the very night of the conference, so there was still hope for Battler to come and get her like a Prince, as he promised. She was holding out as much as she could.
You see, I'd agree with your point. However, the timing she had to send the letters was terrible. Had she sent them a year before, I'd fully agree with you. Yet, she sent them on the year she knew this matter would be settled. What's worse, she sent them probably a few weeks before the conference.

In addition, according to herself, 1986 was the worse possible year for Battler to show up. So, why she want Battler to show up that year. Moreover, Clair even said "Why......did it have to be 1986?" meaning that she really wasn't expecting him. And, had he shown up on the next year, she'd already be with George.

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
It's the goddamn ocean. It could end up in Nijima, it could end up in China, it could just sink to the bottom of the ocean. The very fact that bottles were used as a method of delivering the messages is proof of betting on an improbable, almost-impossible chance.

If no accident happened, it's more likely that they'd have been reported to the police. "So um...hey, Police Department? I found these messages about someone writing about the mass murders of that Ushiromiya family...it seems sort of like a warning or a threat..."
True, true.

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
The fact that she has this Love Duel thing makes it pretty clear she has more that one plan. Else she would've never involved Jessica in this mess. "If Battler comes to the island, Murder Mystery Play. If he doesn't, send him messages containing a Murder Mystery Play."
Jessica was already part of this.
As for the multiple plans, again, I think it's been shown she didn't expect Battler to show up for the 1986 conference, with this I mean, he wasn't even part of her plan. If she did plan it, the theory about her bribing Rudolph into convincing Battler to return makes more sense that her trying to do so by bottle she just sent few weeks before the conference. Timing is the main issue here.

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Originally Posted by Dormeur View Post
This is my guess.

Spoiler for EP8:
Heh... I like this.
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Old 2011-01-02, 04:23   Link #21103
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
We've evolved beyond "motives." You just need HEART.
Spoiler for EP8:

Last edited by Dormeur; 2011-01-02 at 06:11.
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Old 2011-01-02, 05:23   Link #21104
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Well, Yasu's own words were that she was abandoning herself to the roulette, and that she planned to "obey its ruling". Also, we cannot tell how deep her feelings for George were. We did know Battler was her #1 choice, but would she dump George after the roulette had decided? She said she'd obey it.
If Battler returned and remembered her, would that not be a miracle on the roulette? We never saw Remembering-Battler VS George, so it's sort of a toss-up. But Beatrice keeps trying to make Battler remember even post-George proposal.

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You see, I'd agree with your point. However, the timing she had to send the letters was terrible. Had she sent them a year before, I'd fully agree with you. Yet, she sent them on the year she knew this matter would be settled. What's worse, she sent them probably a few weeks before the conference.

In addition, according to herself, 1986 was the worse possible year for Battler to show up. So, why she want Battler to show up that year. Moreover, Clair even said "Why......did it have to be 1986?" meaning that she really wasn't expecting him. And, had he shown up on the next year, she'd already be with George.
Yasu's motives pretty much contradict all the fucking time, but what about the message bottles being sent out years before, and only being found when they were?

Ultimately it doesn't matter so long as they're sent out before the conference, because she can't send them AFTER.

Quote:
Jessica was already part of this.
As for the multiple plans, again, I think it's been shown she didn't expect Battler to show up for the 1986 conference, with this I mean, he wasn't even part of her plan. If she did plan it, the theory about her bribing Rudolph into convincing Battler to return makes more sense that her trying to do so by bottle she just sent few weeks before the conference. Timing is the main issue here.
What I mean is the Jessica-romance might not have happened otherwise.

Quote:
Heh... I like this.
Even though it's objectively wrong? :P
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Old 2011-01-02, 09:15   Link #21105
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
We've evolved beyond "motives." You just need HEART.
And gold

Honestly, aside from the butchering of the mystery, Umineko is a pretty good series. I guess Ryukishi just isn't too good at writing mysteries. He was saying he wanted to "amend" the poor mystery of Higurashi here but... I guess it didn't work out too well. He's a great writer, for the most part, but I just think he should stick to writing horror thrillers. He did a great job with Higurashi despite the poor ending.

(Of course, there's still the chance he'll remedy this with Umineko Rei... oh who am I kidding.)
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Old 2011-01-02, 09:44   Link #21106
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Actually, I think that Ryu07 has prepared the ultimate truth behind the Rokkenjima Prime, but he chose not to reveal it in the EP8.

He alluded to its content through
Spoiler for EP8 end spoiler:
and Ange's reaction towards Eva's diary, which is, in my opinion, close to the content of EP7 tea party. THe truth is a very dark one.

Those who really want to know the answer, should be able to infer from the episodes.

But in the end, what 's the value of that dark truth? Do you have no love for the characters you have been with?3


And I think Umineko still belongs to mystery genre, Ryu07 even mocked the readers who gave up thinking just because they thought the episodes were just fantasy of some characters. I suppose it is that Umineko did not give a definite answer in the end, which is a staple of traditional mystery story, irritates people most. But as I say, the final answer is already here, but you have to seek it out and decide whether you trust it is the answer or not
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Old 2011-01-02, 09:49   Link #21107
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Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
But in the end, what 's the value of that dark truth? Do you have no love for the characters you have been with?
No.

I'm a mystery fan. To me, the truth is more important than the characters. But I get that the story isn't like that.
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Old 2011-01-02, 10:01   Link #21108
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Originally Posted by Sherringford View Post
No.

I'm a mystery fan. To me, the truth is more important than the characters. But I get that the story isn't like that.

Well, that's exactly how Erika and initially Ange were portrayed

The truth behind Rokkenjima is not that hard to surmise, once you read the actual episode 8.

It is just that there will never be a confirmation whether your conjecture is true or not.
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Old 2011-01-02, 10:09   Link #21109
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Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
Well, that's exactly how Erika and initially Ange were portrayed

The truth behind Rokkenjima is not that hard to surmise, once you read the actual episode 8.

It is just that there will never be a confirmation whether your conjecture is true or not.
No. Erika and Ange are different. I read episode 8 already, and frankly, this is a bad conclusion mystery wise. There is no mystery. There is no truth. Which works fine as a story, but it works terrible as a mystery.

It's-

It's Carr time.

Quote:
"Suppose you are reading a detective story with an intriguing situation. A corpse (let us say) is found strangled, sitting in a chair by a window, and wearing a domino mask; and all the clocks in the house are found with their faces turned to the wall. You are carefully warned that the blazing clue to the truth is the fact that there is a teaspoon in the victim's pocket, and that, without all these things being just as they were, the crime could never have taken place. ... Now, suppose at the denoument the identity of the killer was revealed — for the simple reason that his fingerprints matched those on the collar of the strangled man. Would you feel cheated? That's exactly what might happen in life; but would you feel cheated? You know damn well you would. ... He admits the crime. Then he shoots himself. Consequently, you never know the significance of the mask or the reversed clocks, or what deduction you should have drawn from the teaspoon. Page 315, 'The End'. What would you do? You would strangle the author, lynch the publisher, and shoot the bookseller.
It's the same feeling here.
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Old 2011-01-02, 10:20   Link #21110
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Originally Posted by Sherringford View Post

It's Carr time.
Well, in your opinion, what are the domino mask, reversed clocks or teaspoon in Umineko?

But I admit I never get what is the motive of Beatrice from EP7 anyway.

---------------
Or I should say, from the perspective of Ryu07, revealing the truth is not that hard, but giving a good end for the characters after revealing the truth is hard. So he chose to keep the catbox closed, but with a glimpse of what is inside.
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Old 2011-01-02, 10:43   Link #21111
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My main problem with the series is that it was cowardly in its execution. Ryuukishi said he would never give a solution from the beginning, and that was perfectly fine with me. I'm fairly confident that even if never given the ending to The Hollow Man, I'd still be able to reason things out the same way our dear Dr.Fell did. Which is what I was expecting Umineko to be like. But here however, we are left with thousands of possibilities and no adequate answer.

Ryuukishi talked about the trust between reader and writer, and let me say this, I feel he betrayed our trust. He told us to think, to fight against him, yet he did not fight back.

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It is a hoodwinking contest, a duel between author and reader. "I dare you," says the reader, "to produce a solution which I can't anticipate." "Right!" says the author, chuckling over the consciousness of some new and legitimate dirty-trick concealed up his sleeve, And then they are at it-pull-devil, pull-murderer-with the reader alert for every dropped clue, every betraying speech, every contradiction that may mean guilt.
A mystery novel should be a duel where both parties have at it. Ryuukishi ran away from that fight. He told us to see what trick he was using, and yet he did not have an actual trick.

One might argue that the novel wasn't meant to be solved, which is fair. But he did ask us to think, numerous times. I personally took that as an invitation to play the grandest game in the world, and I see no fault with that line of thinking. Anyone who speculated here in this topic before does not have the right to say that we were not expected to think about it.

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Nothing, in fact, shows more clearly the difference between the expert craftsman and the novice than his manner of presenting this evidence. The novice, even when he is anxious to include a clue, develops a case of acute self-consciousness about it. He feels naked before the reader's eye. He is much too afraid of being caught with the goods. So he hurls the clue into the story and then runs like a maniac, as though he had thrown a bomb.
The result is that the clue, one or two words at most, will flash past and become lost among sixty or seventy thousand other words. This is painfully evident during the detective's summing-up in the final chapter.
Ryuukishi's game was one made by a novice. He committed the most obvious mistake of not setting up an actual solution, and afraid of revealing how foolish he looked by showing a final solution, he decided to let his readers find a better solution than he could think of.

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"The whole question of Dagmar Doubledick's guilt," declares the detective, "turns on the kind of necktie he was wearing when we met him that day at Wemmerly Park. Of course you remember it was a green tie?"
To which the honest reader is compelled to answer: "No, I'm damned if I do!"
And then, if he is conscientious, he will turn back through the book to discover whether Dagmar Doubledick's tie really was green. Perhaps he finds this clue, a violet by amossy stone, half hidden somewhere in the dusky recesses of Chapter Six; perhaps he misses the page and does not find it at all. In either case he is left with a vague feeling of dissatisfaction: as though he has been, if not swindled, at least out-talked.
This is the main problem here. While you could argue that the writer set up an angle where we are supposed not to see it as a mystery, it doesn't matter. He may have swindled the reader, but he did not beat him.

Ryuukishi invited his readers to fight him, then ran away once he saw things weren't looking up to him. If you want to argue that he was in no obligation of fighting the reader, feel free to. But you know what? I think he did have that obligation.

Once you set up a body inside a locked room, you damn right have the obligation to explain to your reader how that happened. If you want to make a point that the 'reality' doesn't have a clear culprit, feel free to. But god damn it I want the right to solve the 'games' you invited me to play. If you won't offer us the solution, then craft them better so that we'll get to the right solution.

For example, the first game. Assuming that Kyrie, Rudolf or Shannon were faking their deaths raises questions that will most likely never be answered. Surely we can come up with a wishy washy explanation for them, but that is not what a mystery should feel like. There should be no wishy washinsess when explaining a mystery.

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Well, in your opinion, what are the domino mask, reversed clocks or teaspoon in Umineko?

But I admit I never get what is the motive of Beatrice from EP7 anyway.
Motive is a pretty good one. After being reminded of how important the heart was, having greed turn out to be the motive is very disappointing. The red mechanic was interesting at first, but it turned into a wordplay mess very quickly with Shkanon.

Quote:
Each small detail glitters now with an effectiveness it should have had, and would have had, if the story had been written straightforwardly. it is in the mood, in the tempo, an arrow whang in the gold. And when, in addition to this, we find ourselves flumdiddled by some master-stroke of ingenuity which has turned our suspicions legitimately in the wrong direction, we can only salute the anthor and close the book with a kind of admiring curse,
There, good friends, is a detective story.
But who writes such stories nowadays?
Certainly not Ryuukishi. Surely, like someone has mentioned, "no one called it a mystery but the villains." But to deny that the mystery was present because no one ever referred to it is elementary school level of logic.

I understand that there are certain die hard fans who will disagree with me and try to say I don't 'get' it or something like that since absolutely no one is allowed to dislike their precious novel and any negative impression of it consists of logic that can and will be nitpicked to death, as I no doubt believe will happen here.

Having read episodes 1-8, this is my following rating on the series:

Pacing: 4/10
Writing: 6/10
Characters: 10/10
Plot: 7/10
Mystery: 0/10
Overall: 6/10


A fun story, but the ride was much better than the destination. I'll still like the series, but you won't be seeing me trying to convince my friends to read it anymore.
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Old 2011-01-02, 11:03   Link #21112
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Also, that said, I'm still eagerly waiting for the announcement of When The Shuttles Cry, with Will playing in the Olympics while Lion becomes his cheerleader.

Believe.
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Old 2011-01-02, 11:24   Link #21113
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Eh, my final rating would be more like:

Writing
Pacing: 7/10 (Slightly above average; nice and slow in the first four episodes, but Ryukishi somehow forgot to make the transition to "action packed and dramatic" in the supposed answer episodes)
Style: 8/10 (Poor writing habits keep me from giving it a 9, but there is great dramatic overture that compliments the superb music.)
Plot: 7.5/10 (Overall a very creative plot with many superb ideas, but misleading direction and an unsatisfying conclusion leave you with a bad aftertaste.)
Characters: 7/10 (Overall a bad, unlikable cast. A few gems like Kinzo, Beatrice and Bern prevent me from giving it a 4/10. If he didn't kill the best freaking character in the whole series in the 4th episode it could've been a 8/10. Pales in comparison to Higurashi, which had a really superb cast.)
Overall: ~7.5
Misc
Music: 10/10 (I am a musician IRL. The music, and musical direction are the best I've seen in a VN to this day. Bar none.)
Graphics & Effects: 8/10 (The sprites grow on you over time. The effects weren't bad either, and cute sound effects like ahaha.wav seem like an awkward addition, but they grow up on you over time. Great use of effects to troll is also noteworthy.)
Overall: 9/10
Weighted Overall: (0.75) * (7.5) + (0.25) * (9) = ~8

(Yeah, not really the place to put this, but we don't really have a thread for it.)
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Old 2011-01-02, 11:51   Link #21114
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I disagree with the comparison between pro-mystery readers and Erika.

Pro-mystery readers are taking the position that "There is a real solution, and I'm trying to figure out what it is."

Erika / Bernkastel's position was "I don't care whether there's a real solution. I'm going to force things towards one answer and cover up / ignore any evidence to the contrary."
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Old 2011-01-02, 11:56   Link #21115
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Originally Posted by rogerpepitone View Post
I disagree with the comparison between pro-mystery readers and Erika.

Pro-mystery readers are taking the position that "There is a real solution, and I'm trying to figure out what it is."

Erika / Bernkastel's position was "I don't care whether there's a real solution. I'm going to force things towards one answer and cover up / ignore any evidence to the contrary."
Indeed, that's why I say that she and Ange(and Will, to a lesser degree) are different from Erika.

Comparing pro-mystery readers to Ange/Will is far more accurate than to Erika.

The comparison people want to make though is that while Battler just wants to prove that a witch didn't do it, the witches want to find the actual culprit, and anti-mystery readers seem to think that it's "cruel" to want a mystery out of a "senseless tragedy."

Which is where the Carr quotation comes in.
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Old 2011-01-02, 12:02   Link #21116
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A fun story, but the ride was much better than the destination. I'll still like the series, but you won't be seeing me trying to convince my friends to read it anymore.
Totally agree. If you watched code geass, that isnt a mystery, you will notice the creators took half a year to produce the last 2 episodes. The reason was towards the end, they decided they didnt want a run of the mill 'make love not war kiss n hugs' ending. However once they unleashed hell, they didnt know how to solve it hence after hell was unleashed it was half year or more before they came up with the last 2 episodes. Which isn't much of a happy ending but at least they tried. Then they did a brilliant job with s2 with a bittersweet ending. See that really shows what sherringford said about pros n novices. The pros regardless of their ability will put up a fight, and perhaps later when they finally found a better way they present a brilliant continuation. Umineko is a bloody joke. The overall backstory is brilliant i admit n the metaphorically witches virgillia ronove also makes perfect sense with the backstory. However u cant sell a nonsensical main story with only brilliant backstory. Even a poor main story with a brilliant backstory is many times better than a nonsensical mainstory.
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Old 2011-01-02, 13:51   Link #21117
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It's not that he didn't know how to finish it as a mystery, it's more like he didn't want it to be one in the first place. There is a very straightforward way to write EP8 as a mystery:

+ Explain Shkanon
+ Explain EPs 5 and 6 more thoroughly
+ Make Yasu the culprit (and not some random culprit from nowhere) and explain her motive (supposedly he already thought of this one)
+ Meta in message bottles only, ignore the "Battler amnesia" angle (Battler can still be an author of the fake message bottles though)

This is what most people expected from EP8. He doesn't even need to alter its narrative structure much to do this.
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Old 2011-01-02, 14:04   Link #21118
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The reason was towards the end, they decided they didnt want a run of the mill 'make love not war kiss n hugs' ending.
I think it's just that they ran out of broadcasting time.
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Old 2011-01-02, 14:09   Link #21119
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The thing is Ryukishi stated he wouldn't be explaining Yasu and her motives past EP7.
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Old 2011-01-02, 14:12   Link #21120
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Something he obviously shouldn't have said, had he wanted to end this as a mystery novel (I figured he'd just go back on his word, or give us enough hints to easily figure it out ourselves, myself).
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