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Old 2009-09-18, 14:32   Link #2121
Dlanor .A. Nox
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On first glance it would look normal but if you inspected the door there would be a good chance you would find whatever secret the paint is hiding, also Gohda is the other piece of this puzzle, he died holding the door closed, now I don't know if it was drugs poison or just fear induced hallucination but the stake "seemed" to have gone through the door itself! Now think in normal view what could get a stake through the door realistically and yet leave no possible trace of how it was done, paint and a trapdoor/panel.
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Old 2009-09-18, 14:44   Link #2122
~Diru~
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Well about Natsuhis room:


-Natsuhi's room was exactly the same, just like usual
-The door and the windows were locked from the inside
-There is no fraud or trick, there is no means of secret passage and no hidden place


Not sure if a trapdoor is seen as a trick, but it doesn't seem as if the truth is only about locking the door, as a "hidden place" is mentioned.
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Old 2009-09-18, 14:56   Link #2123
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This is a small hole I'm talking about not a gaping passage in the wall that is unlocked with the flick of a switch. The Red Truth is not always reliable it's a proven fact, there are multiple interpretations for it and it can become incredibly vague, like the panel could not be called a trick or fraud but be a means of entry in Beatrice's mind. It is not hidden either it's in plain sight for everyone to see (hence my examples) outlined in red they just could not interpret it as a viable means of entrance.
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Old 2009-09-18, 15:08   Link #2124
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Well okay, you could explain Gohda this way I guess.
I don't know, but a trick used twice in 2 different episodes? Also this many doors with this kind of mechanism? And I suppose George and Shannon died some other way, as the culprit couldn't get them from his position + a small hole right?
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Old 2009-09-18, 15:22   Link #2125
Dlanor .A. Nox
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Did you notice the paint smears on the second board? There is alot, it wouldn't be hard to imagine more than one hole, but, if I was Beatrice I'd make sure I would have a way into the room with or without a key, this could be a part of the main plan throughout all episodes.
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Old 2009-09-18, 15:36   Link #2126
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Wouldn't that be called "Secret passage?" ^^
Also isn't the "other explanation in mind" somehow ruled out, as Battler had Asumu as his mother in his mind, but couldn't say it either?
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Old 2009-09-18, 15:48   Link #2127
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It's an action taken on the spot, a plan not put into effect until the time arrives. Same with Eva's and Hideyoshi's the door was probably solid when Genji and Kanon were knocking on it. That is when The killer/accomplice's time limit started, unlock the door, remove the trap if the accomplice or escape as the killer, create the hole, seal the door and presto. Locked Room. The reason the second board's seal was done sloppily was because there was little time, Beatrice was still in charge due to hallucination of any explanation, but was quickly running out of time in order to move freely. Another way to explain it is to have Genji and Kanon merely lie but that would be too simple and it would create a bunch of unccessary holes.

As for the Red who knows what Beatrice is thinking, but she can create loopholes around Red to deceive it's victim. The panel CAN be called called a means of entry because it is a method of entry into a room or a way to close it.
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Old 2009-09-18, 16:06   Link #2128
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What was that at Natsuhis door then, as she didn't die?
Well anyway, as long as no new Information appear about it, it can't be argumented against the theory much further I think...
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Old 2009-09-18, 16:20   Link #2129
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It was the killer's first attempt most likely, however upon finding the charm on the doorknob, the illusion of Beatrice had to continue so she was spared. Glue can be used as well so if Genji had the time to clean the door, the glue would have dried by then and so would the paint. The murders happened at the dead of night and Natsuhi discovered the markings in the morning so the drying process would have happened already. The paint would be unremovable and the door would appear solid, even if Genji had the time to clean it up, of course with the discovery of the six bodies this task would obviously be on hold. Anyways this theory appears solid for now that is. I'm taking a break -_-;;;
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Old 2009-09-18, 17:02   Link #2130
Kaisos Erranon
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Magic is most definitely not just a delusion... the point is that there are two sides, two realities to things.

Rosa believed that it was Maria speaking for Sakutaro... but Maria believed it was Sakutaro himself speaking.

Who's to say that either of them is wrong?

(Reminds me of Calvin and Hobbes, actually.)
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Old 2009-09-18, 17:07   Link #2131
Jan-Poo
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there's a few things I would consider. Maybe your theory works in the case of Eva and Hideyoshi but in the case of ep2 closed room case we have:


-The only way to lock this door is with Jessica's single key, or with the master keys, which there are one per servant
-Entry and exit is impossible when the door is locked
-There is no device that can lock the door from the outside without the key
-It is impossible to unlock the door without the servant's room key or without the master keys


and there is the definition of closed room in ep3

Quote:
The term closed room refers to a room where the inside and the outside of the room are completely separated. Obviously, for any form of intrusion or escape, no intervention is possible. That comprehensively includes a denial of hidden doors, as well as all margin for intervention from the outside.

Henceforth, this definition will be referred to as
Beatrice's closed room definition!

It refers to all types of direct intervention from the outside, such as using a fishing line or a long, thin rod. In conclusion, there is no gap in the doors and windows where those tricks will work.

I add to this definition that it is impossible for radio waves and related methods of remote control to interfere.

All direct and indirect methods of interfering from the outside of the room to the inside of the closed room are impossible.
I don't think a hole in the door can escape from this definition
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Old 2009-09-18, 17:12   Link #2132
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Actually I remembered about something like this, but as I hadn't had it to quote from it didn't do it.
The room meant here was Natsuhis and it said there "closed room as usual" but as the single points were listed after that, the "device" one didn't appear again.
Also, was it stated that the Closed Room definition counts for every ep or just onward that moment?(as it used henceforth)
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Old 2009-09-18, 17:16   Link #2133
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What Dlanor is suggesting is that the door were made like that since a while. Anything that happens before the game cannot be changed, so you'd have to think those holes and panels were made on October 4, which isn't very realistic if you ask me.

If they were done previously then they should be there in any episode and Beatrice's definition of closed room couldn't be possible.
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Old 2009-09-18, 17:20   Link #2134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
What Dlanor is suggesting is that the door were made like that since a while. Anything that happens before the game cannot be changed, so you'd have to think those holes and panels were made on October 4, which isn't very realistic if you ask me.
I said that also as the rooms used weren't known (for Eva and Hideyoshi at least), but Dlanor suggested actually this:

Quote:
Same with Eva's and Hideyoshi's the door was probably solid when Genji and Kanon were knocking on it. That is when The killer/accomplice's time limit started, unlock the door, remove the trap if the accomplice or escape as the killer, create the hole, seal the door and presto. Locked Room.
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Old 2009-09-18, 17:25   Link #2135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maximilianjenus View Post
In before someone says that the stakes looked 7 in the novel.

Actually, I am a bit worried about sakutarou, considering that they are designing everybody to be quite sexy rather than moe.
Are you saying Sakutarou's going to have huge boobies? *shot*
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Old 2009-09-18, 17:25   Link #2136
Ssol
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Magic is most definitely not just a delusion... the point is that there are two sides, two realities to things.

Rosa believed that it was Maria speaking for Sakutaro... but Maria believed it was Sakutaro himself speaking.

Who's to say that either of them is wrong?

(Reminds me of Calvin and Hobbes, actually.)
Stuffed animals can't speak for themselves so Maria is wrong. It's all in her mind.

At some point you have to seperate fiction and reality or else you become delusional.
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Old 2009-09-18, 17:27   Link #2137
Jan-Poo
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It is already incredible that the culprit made that paint in a such a short time span. Plus those doors are sturdy. With a manual drill it would take 30 minutes at the very least, and an electric drill would make too much noise.

Ah there's another problem I think. If it's a hole it goes both ways, inside and outside. So the paint is meant to cover the hole from outside. What about inside?
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Old 2009-09-18, 17:32   Link #2138
~Diru~
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Yup, thought about the other side too, but of course you could say they were so shocked or whatever that they didn't close the door so the backside of the door would point to the wall, and when closing it they obviously couldn't see the backside.
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Old 2009-09-18, 17:35   Link #2139
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But as Umineko itself is fiction, it could be that in its reality it could be possible right?
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Old 2009-09-18, 17:53   Link #2140
Ssol
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ~Diru~ View Post
Wasn't that just Kinzos?
The closed room murders with key inside wouldn't make any sense this way as a key wouldn't be needed to close it right?
Someone said a while back that Rokkenkima can also be read as six key island if you change one of the kanji so my theory is that there is a sixth key at the time of the murders. The culprit then destroys the sixth key so there are only five. This allows us to get past any red declaration.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamar View Post
Obviously the world has some sort of internal logic. If you base everything on the premise of things that can only happen in the real world...well, then any solution you want to come up with works, because something like the Red Text doesn't exist. And nothing after the first mystery counts at all.

Or this is one of those crap stories where everything is a dying dream metaphor or something.
I think there will be a logical and non-magic explanation for all the murders that occured. Beyond that, we'll just have to wait and see...
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