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Old 2011-01-08, 19:08   Link #21401
AuraTwilight
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I'd also like to add that Voyagers are extremely afraid of becoming Creators for some reason, and their journey through the kakera in search of entertainment is to escape having to become one as much as it is avoiding the disease of boredom.
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Old 2011-01-08, 21:02   Link #21402
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Old 2011-01-08, 21:35   Link #21403
Kylon99
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Originally Posted by ClannadDango View Post
I wonder if Ryukishi07 wrote Umineko in a way in which if you solve it correctly you realized you have come to the correct answer or if you are still left in the dark. Everything I guess is still in the cat box. In quantum mechanic terms Umineko is still not solvable we see the cat.
Excuse me, but I'm just quoting you as a way to get into the topic... ... but I'm really putting this question for the many different people who've asked this same question:

What I'm wondering is, what 'solution' or 'answer' do people say that EP8 didn't give to them? I finished EP8 yesterday and I wasn't as disturbed with the so-called lack of answers as it seems some other people were. In fact, this is how I saw it; EP8 provided us with an answer for Rokkenjima Prime. The argument that the story of Rokkenjima Prime isn't a mystery is a strawman argument; it was never a mystery to begin with.

The mystery that Ryukishi told us about was EP1-4; the gameboard story. That's your mystery right there and he even told us EP7 provided the end to the mystery. Although maybe some of us think he's still hidden some more details about Beatrice's story...


However, the massacre of Rokkenjima Prime is not a murder mystery. It cannot conform to any detective novel, or any of the detective fiction rules. It is merely a story of a massacre. In our own world this would be something similar to the Jack the Ripper massacres; even now there are people who look through the clues attempting to solve it. When I say it or Rokkenjima Prime is not a mystery what I mean is that Jack wasn't obligated to leave us clues for it to be solved, for example.

From the beginning, in EP1-2 we couldn't even detect the existence of this Rokkenjima Prime, so why now are we saying he deceived us? I only started coming up with the Author Theory at the end of EP2 and back then it was still very limited. In fact, by the beginning of EP6, I had already said when I presented my theory that we may never know what really happened on Rokkenjima Prime:

Quote:
From this post, dated 2010-01-07, 16:02
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...postcount=5188

Incidentally, what *really* happened on Rokkenjima? Did Natsuhi run around with the kids waving a gun in the air? We may never know. But perhaps the reasons why she did, if she did, were more important (which may have been presented in EP5.)
To mix the stories that Beatrice/Yasu came up with in the message bottles and the later episodes that Tooya came up with, with what really happened on the island in Rokkenjima Prime would be a serious mistake.


Quote:
From this post, dated 2010-03-24, 18:13
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...postcount=6988

The difference is though that Battler-Prime and Rokkenjima-Prime... the Ushiromiya-Prime family... and what the REAL events were on that day are not relevant. That stuff is probably lost forever in the two-author's world. Although Mystery Author asks us to find out the truth, I believe that is some kind of deeper understanding of the background situation of the family rather than 'what really happened.'


This doesn't mean that, "Ohhh it's all fake! Let's give up!" There still exists the possibility of discovering the truth through what's presented, even if it's fiction.
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Old 2011-01-09, 02:27   Link #21404
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Many theories such as the author theory have been around for quite some time. The author theory first emerged after episode 1.

The first time I read it was when Jan-Poo posted it on this forum during his conversation with Chronotrig. Comparing the author theory with the kakera theory:
Quote:
From this post by Jan-Poo, dated 2009-10-01, 07:27
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...postcount=1014

I agree with that you said except the part where you compare the author's work as "choosing a kakera". This kind of interpretation gives the idea that the "story" already exist, and the author is simply choosing one among the infinite already existing stories. My opinion differs from this because I think the author creates a story and can, at will, modify the parts, set up roles, create scenarios and such.
If you look at how Beatrice described her work behind the games, you'll notice that she always implied such a control over the gameboard.

This kind of interpretation affects the role of narrator. In your case the narrator has a will of his own (although manipulated by the author), while in my case the narrator is just an alias of the author's will (although the author can willingly make it so the narrator doesn't know the whole truth).
There is only one true Rokkenjima and the games are just like the messages in the bottles:
Quote:
From this post by Jan-Poo, dated 2009-10-02, 14:18
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...postcount=1032

I don't think that no real world exists. I think only one real world exists. In other words I refute the idea that this is yet another multiple worlds scenario like in Higurashi.

What I think is that there is one world where the Rokkenjima incident takes place. I don't know all the details but I guess the most important parts, like the persons involved, the general situation, the culprit and his reasons are set in stone.

The "games" then are no different than the letters Beatrice herself wrote. The story in those letters didn't really happen, they were completely fictional, they weren't narration of what happened in alternate realities (unless there's magic at work). In those letters Beatrice used the same scenario and the same characters, but it doesn't change the fact that the stories were made up, probably including hints about the truth, but still made up. The "games" are the same as those letters, that's what I think.

In the end if you open the box the wave function collapses. There can only be a single reality.
I created my old culprit theory based on Jan-Poos ideas. My old theory was just an attempt to explain how the author could have known so much about the Ushiromiya family. Episode 8 finally gave us the real answer to this. That was the last answer I was looking for.

I agree with Kylon99 so Ill ask everyone as well.
What are you guys still looking for?

Look, some stories were written and shown to us. Those stories were just works of Yasu and Tooya; characters within the game itself. Episode 7 gave us the answer to those stories. Yasu is the culprit in her stories. In her stories, shes capable of setting up perfect closed rooms, disguising herself, changing her voice, etc. Just a bit unrealistic but thats Yasu for ya.

In the real world, what did Yasu really do on that day? Who knows.

Yet, some people want to take one or more of the fictional characters from her stories and paint them as the culprit in the real world. I guess I used to be like that so I understand. Eventually, people will understand... I believe.
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Old 2011-01-09, 03:01   Link #21405
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Yet, some people want to take one or more of the fictional characters from her stories and paint them as the culprit in the real world. I guess I used to be like that so I understand. Eventually, people will understand... I believe.
You're right. I've been thinking of this for some time, and Yasu seems to be painting herself as the culprit despite very clearly lacking the ability or personality to carry out actual murders. If she is just a fictional culprit in her fictional stories, then it all works. The catbox is what truly happened in the 'real world', which has little to nothing to do with what Yasu wrote, but it provides clues, Yasu's fictional culprit status being a good red herring without being exactly untrue.
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Old 2011-01-09, 03:46   Link #21406
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@Kylon and @Ssol


You know, I don't even need to write an answer to what you just said here, because I already explained it in detail before EP8 was released


What I said there, is still valid. If you can show me where all those questions were answered then it's fine. But if you can't then in my book it isn't fine. And I'd like to highlight some points that I made clear back from then:

Quote:
Now don't start trying to answers all those questions, I know there's been explanations for most of them running around [...]

No matter how likely an answer seems, Ryuukishi still needs to confirm it

[..]

And to be honest just giving the answers to the mysteries of EP1-4 wouldn't be quite enough for my tastes. I'd rather expect a full explanations of what really happened in any small detail in at least the 5 first arcs.

And yet I had already predicted that Ryuukishi wouldn't answer everything (although I didn't think he would go to such degree)

Quote:
I think there's so many things unanswered that I find difficult to believe everything will be answered in a single episode.

[...]

How the hell is he going to do that without transforming EP8 in a list of answers?

and then a post later this summarize pretty well my view on this issue:


Quote:
I don't agree with that. I don't see where is the interesting part in leaving things unanswered.

If the author doesn't provide the answers, you will never know for sure if your interpretation is correct or not. Even worse you will never know if there was an answer to begin with.

What kind of proof you will have that the author actually thought about a realistic solution for a given problem rather than simply creating an impossible riddle that he never planned to care to explain?

If you decide to simply blindly trust that an author really thought about everything in a way to make perfect sense but he just doesn't want to tell us, how can you tell apart an ingenious author from a bogus one?

If Ryuukishi doesn't want his story to be stigmatized as being full of "plot holes" he needs to provide explanations.
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Old 2011-01-09, 05:11   Link #21407
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I looked at those questions. I have answers to them which are based on various clues within the game. However, as you said, I cannot confirm my answers. Since you only want to hear Ryukishi's words I'm sure he'll have another interview or something similar very soon.

For now, I will leave you with the truth:
Quote:
Featherine talked about an answer session. Does this mean that you plan to show in detail the answers behind the tricks and the culprit?

Ryukishi: About that. For example, in an online game, let's say that there's an ultra-rare item that you have to work really hard to obtain. If that item suddenly becomes easy to get in an update patch, you'd be annoyed and want to get all that wasted time back, wouldn't you? (laughs) In Umineko, if we show in detail how all the tricks work and who the culprit is, people who have reasoned it out and found their own answer will wonder 'What was the point of all my efforts figuring it out?!', so I'd like to create a slight gap between those who have reached the answer and those who haven't.

If this tale were to tell you the answer so plainly that you didn't have to think about it, it would no longer be a game.

For that reason, I want to let people who have thought everything out be confident that the answer they have found is the right one. This may give further hints to those who still haven't figured out everything, but they will not be able to understand the one final point...

That is how I want to write. That is why this work called Umineko is a 'game'.
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Old 2011-01-09, 05:18   Link #21408
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Quote:
Ryukishi: About that. For example, in an online game, let's say that there's an ultra-rare item that you have to work really hard to obtain. If that item suddenly becomes easy to get in an update patch, you'd be annoyed and want to get all that wasted time back, wouldn't you? (laughs) In Umineko, if we show in detail how all the tricks work and who the culprit is, people who have reasoned it out and found their own answer will wonder 'What was the point of all my efforts figuring it out?!', so I'd like to create a slight gap between those who have reached the answer and those who haven't.
I think R07 will have to start working on his analogies. Whilst I agree on the MMO thing (although I don't play them), at the very least I, in a mystery novel, do want to know what the final answer is so that I can know how close (or far) I was to it, and thus feel my efforts were worth something.
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Old 2011-01-09, 05:28   Link #21409
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
@Kylon and @Ssol

What I said there, is still valid. If you can show me where all those questions were answered then it's fine. But if you can't then in my book it isn't fine.
So, that's not what I was saying. I was saying that people were confusing how EP8 refused to reveal what happened in Rokkenjima Prime and thinking that that was the same as not giving answers provided in EP7 of the Beatrice mysteries from EP1 - EP4. That's all.

Nowhere did I say he provided us all the answers in EP7, I said that he declared EP7 as the end to the mystery. (He did this in an interview.)


If you're talking about how EP8 did not provide all the answers in a direct manner for the mysteries of EP1-4 then what I'm saying is that EP8 is not that. However, if you say that you're unsatisfied that he hasn't provided you with enough of an explanation for the Beatrice mysteries as of yet, then you may argue that. Because that's about your own satisfaction with the series.


Now, you did say:
Quote:
Now don't start trying to answers all those questions, I know there's been explanations for most of them running around, some of them pretty solid, but it's not the reason why I listed them here.
So I'm not going to bother with your request to answer those questions for you. But I will say this... I don't think the mysteries from EP1-4 are over just yet, for us. There still appears to be some things we need to think about. My point was that he provided a conclusion to the 1998 arc, not the mysteries in EP8.

Here's the problem. Featherine, after hearing Bern's tale at the end of EP7 declared that she needed to sleep for I forgot how long to go back and re-think through the earlier episodes. I think we need to do that too.

But, I've already posted about this... two of the main mysteries have been presented to us; about Beatrice running the epitaph and the siblings going on killing sprees. We've kinda detected these two things by induction. What we haven't done is deduction. I've realized by reading some other mystery novels that they NEVER give clues that allow you do arrive at the culprit. They give you clues to show who cannot be the culprit. You have to do the leg work to remove all the possible list of culprits; whoever is remaining is the one. We haven't gone through that exercise, as far as I know. At least not with what we've been given for EP7.

Spoiler for Directed at Jan-Poo about the questions he wants answered:



Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
You're right. I've been thinking of this for some time, and Yasu seems to be painting herself as the culprit despite very clearly lacking the ability or personality to carry out actual murders. If she is just a fictional culprit in her fictional stories, then it all works. The catbox is what truly happened in the 'real world', which has little to nothing to do with what Yasu wrote, but it provides clues, Yasu's fictional culprit status being a good red herring without being exactly untrue.
You know, this is important. With what was portrayed in EP7 and her (or Beatrice?) committing suicide in EP8, I was going all along going, "what sin" is she saying she has? I keep wondering how much of her being the culprit with at least the bomb is true...
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Old 2011-01-09, 05:39   Link #21410
Kylon99
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Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
Many theories such as the author theory have been around for quite some time. The author theory first emerged after episode 1.
Yah, I remember hearing about the same sort of theory on 2ch around EP2 as well. However, the main problem that my post dealt with was the idea that "if it's fiction then it's all useless," which was the main argument against it for a long time. My post attempts to explain why it wasn't.

But, I'm not sure everyone understands the idea of Rokkenjima Prime vs. the Beatrice Mysteries. I thought people were getting them mixed up. In other words, the warning I had about the Author Theory and the trap you could fall into if you didn't realize it.... was the trap I think people are falling into now.

The trap being the idea that the answer for Rokkenjima Prime is the same answer as for the Beatrice Mysteries.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
I looked at those questions. I have answers to them which are based on various clues within the game. However, as you said, I cannot confirm my answers. Since you only want to hear Ryukishi's words I'm sure he'll have another interview or something similar very soon.
I'll add one more thing before I sleep. It's that in a traditional murder mystery, what we have for confirmation is the detective, in the last chapter, going through the whole story and showing how he figured out who the culprit is. We are definitely missing this chapter. If that's what people are arguing about, then it's a good argument. If they're saying they wanted EP8 to be like that then it's a good argument if Ryukishi will never write anything again. However... are we sure he will never write any thing else?

With enough outcry, maybe he'll be forced to lay down the solution in minute, minute detail in an interview; I wouldn't mind getting this either. (Similar to the way he explained the Explosion Incident to us... "Maria's Jaw. Altered Terrain.")


However, we do have one thing... which, although I said it in my previous post, I'll say it again. The end of EP7 hinted to us that we should go back through the episodes again with the new info. Remember when we did that around EP6... we found all sorts of hints about stuff we've already figured out. EP1 and 2 were so loaded with troll-like statements; he basically ended up telling us the answers right to our face. So even if he never speaks another words... we have all this in EP1-4 that shows us just how much he planned from the beginning. And it seems like... how much? I don't know.. I gotta go back through the old episodes yet again.

Last edited by Kylon99; 2011-01-09 at 05:50.
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Old 2011-01-09, 05:58   Link #21411
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I wouldn't mind going back through the games if he dangled a carrot out in front of us. Something along the lines of:
"I'm interested in seeing how many readers will reach the complete truth of Rokkenjima before I release Rei"

So I agree with you. I'm sure that much more can be learned from the previous games with the knowledge we have now.
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Old 2011-01-09, 06:20   Link #21412
Jan-Poo
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Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
I looked at those questions. I have answers to them which are based on various clues within the game. However, as you said, I cannot confirm my answers. Since you only want to hear Ryukishi's words I'm sure he'll have another interview or something similar very soon.

For now, I will leave you with the truth:
I have answers as well. I wrote answers for about 95% of the stuff concerning Umineko. And that's why I don't care about receiving other inputs at this point. We've been discussing this story long enough, I have already reached my own conclusions and I doubt that anything new can emerge at this point. We would need some new input, but it appears there won't be anything else.

However it would pretentious and arrogant for anyone to claim that the truth they have reached is the truth just because they say it.

So let's take the example of the powerful MMORPG item that Ryuukishi himself made. I've played a MMORPG so I can talk by experience.

The truth each one of us reached is comparable to an incredible rare item that we have obtained after 2 or more years of hard work.

However all the alleged qualities of this item are merely speculated. The item description doesn't mention what this incredible rare item actually does. We know that there has been a widespread theory among the players, and until this point we thought that was indisputable. But then some rumors start to spread: "this item is actually worthless", "all the various powers that people seem to notice are just a placebo effect".

So now we are in the position where we do not know if the item we've been working hard for so long was actually worth all that effort.

And this, my friend, sucks.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
So, that's not what I was saying. I was saying that people were confusing how EP8 refused to reveal what happened in Rokkenjima Prime and thinking that that was the same as not giving answers provided in EP7 of the Beatrice mysteries from EP1 - EP4. That's all.
Well you know. My biggest concern right now is that it wasn't given an answer on what actually happened on Rokkenjima Prime, and that's something that EP8 was supposed to reveal in my opinion.

This doesn't have anything to do with "murder mystery" rules and such. This is simply something that the story was supposed to explain from a narrative standpoint. If this was fantasy or sci-fi the same issue would stand.

On a side note, I don't think that the mysteries from EP1-EP4 where fully explained. Will's answers at best cover some aspects, but there are still some huge holes. So I can agree that I can't blame EP8 for not providing those answers. But then I can blame EP7 and the whole series, and EP8 still has its faults.


Quote:
then you may argue that. Because that's about your own satisfaction with the series.
Of course I suppose that no matter what I say I'll be cornered to this spot: "this is your opinion according to your tastes".
But I believe that one year ago the people that expected a full solution and trusted that Ryuukishi would give that (to the point where they would actually argue against those that would deny that) were the vast majority.
Saying now that "the answers aren't that important" shows lack of coherence, and makes me think this "switch" just happens because of fanboyism rather than actual critic sense.

Quote:
We've kinda detected these two things by induction. What we haven't done is deduction. I've realized by reading some other mystery novels that they NEVER give clues that allow you do arrive at the culprit. They give you clues to show who cannot be the culprit. You have to do the leg work to remove all the possible list of culprits; whoever is remaining is the one. We haven't gone through that exercise, as far as I know. At least not with what we've been given for EP7.
That's not true. I've thought a lot about this. Actually in the first place I reasoned more about "exclusion" rather than "pinpointing".
My final answer was that: no one can be the culprit. This is what several reasonings from various starting places led me to. All converges to that. But this is a story and there is inevitably some degree of uncertainty that I can't shake off.


Quote:
With the added assumption that he will never talk about Umineko again. However, I don't believe in that last assumption.
Neither do I, but unless he decides to make an extra episode that shows all the answers, it won't be the same thing. He might eventually give us all the confirmations we need in an interview, but that's sad.

Think about the Kinzo case. Many people already arrived to the conclusion that Kinzo was already dead, right?

Do you think that a simple "Ryuukishi confirms that yes Kinzo was already dead" is the same thing as the whole situation explained and narrated that we have seen in EP5?

That's not the same thing! And that's what I was expecting for every unanswered question.

Quote:
However, in the questions you quoted, you asked what caused the Rokkenjima Explosion. He's already confirmed this for us in EP6 Erika's TIPS, in an EP6 interview, in EP7 as part of the story. And you still want to say he didn't give you an answer?
Of course Kylon! After all he just confirmed that some kind of explosion happened. He didn't explain what actually caused that explosion. Unless you think that the 900tons of explosive are the truth, but seeing as how the whole story isn't very realistic and seeing as how the whole EP7 tea party isn't confirmed at being the truth (actually I think EP8 suggests the opposite), then I can't really see that as a satisfying answer.

And as I pointed out already, he'd still need to explain how such a ridiculous event was considered an "unfortunate incident" and no one was blamed.


Quote:
So, I have to ask you, what questions are you talking about?
Why are you asking me what are my questions, when I have already listed them?


Quote:
I noticed that there's no question about the Taiwan/Qilian theory. Is that one question that you consider 'answered?' What about the Epitaph Game Theory? Is that answered?
I think the Taiwan/Qilian theory is a prime example of what I consider a clear explanation. Come on, he went as far as explaining it TWICE! I would have been satisfied just after the first time.

I'm not sure what is the Epitaph Game theory. But I'm not expecting Ryuukishi to answer user-made theories. He just needs to answer question that the story he wrote raised.


EDIT:

Oh by the way... don't get the wrong idea that I just need the answers and then I'll be satisfied. I was actually awaiting for the answers so that I could then judge whether they were satisfying or not. It's not like any kind of explanation will work.

I always had this hope that in the end I would laugh and acknowledge Ryuukishi's genius, and that would have been even more true if he were to provide a solution that was by far better than anything that I could think.
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Old 2011-01-09, 15:10   Link #21413
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I have answers as well. I wrote answers for about 95% of the stuff concerning Umineko. And that's why I don't care about receiving other inputs at this point. We've been discussing this story long enough, I have already reached my own conclusions and I doubt that anything new can emerge at this point. We would need some new input, but it appears there won't be anything else.

However it would pretentious and arrogant for anyone to claim that the truth they have reached is the truth just because they say it.

So let's take the example of the powerful MMORPG item that Ryuukishi himself made. I've played a MMORPG so I can talk by experience.

The truth each one of us reached is comparable to an incredible rare item that we have obtained after 2 or more years of hard work.

However all the alleged qualities of this item are merely speculated. The item description doesn't mention what this incredible rare item actually does. We know that there has been a widespread theory among the players, and until this point we thought that was indisputable. But then some rumors start to spread: "this item is actually worthless", "all the various powers that people seem to notice are just a placebo effect".

So now we are in the position where we do not know if the item we've been working hard for so long was actually worth all that effort.

And this, my friend, sucks.
I don't think it sucks.

Using that MMO analogy, we defeated the last boss and obtained the incredible rare item. I think even MMO players will argue with you about this.

What was the correct goal of the MMO game?
  • To defeat the final boss? I was part of this guild and we were first to kill boss X on server Y.
  • To make friends in an online community and have fun with them? I dont remember any of the stats of those rare items. However, we worked hard together so that we could obtain them.
  • To identify the item since the description doesn't mention what this incredible rare item actually does? We put in years of work for this. The reward must be worth our time.
I dont have a problem with any of those goals. They are all correct goals. However, for this game, we have received an official statement saying that the item will not be identified for us. Hes given us the identification tools and all we have to do is identify it ourselves.
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Old 2011-01-09, 15:50   Link #21414
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The feeling I get from the series is that Ryuukishi doesn't want to give us the answer, but he would be glad if the answer was forcefully taken from him. That's how I interpreted episode 4's ending in relation to this current situation.

"Victory isn't something you're given. It's something you take."

That's what how I look at it. I don't dislike the idea, but his execution was way off. He seems to genuinely believe that we are fine with not getting our solution confirmed, which is hardly true. This is akin to running a marathon, knowing your time was great, but not being told how it compared to everyone else's time. Not really the best feeling in the world.

But really, I think we are going to get an answer in the end. If not, then it will be disappointing, but it doesn't hurt to wait until Rei comes out right? Maybe it will have all answers there and we have time to think until it comes out.

It doesn't hurt to be a bit optimistic here.
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Old 2011-01-09, 15:51   Link #21415
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You know, this is important. With what was portrayed in EP7 and her (or Beatrice?) committing suicide in EP8, I was going all along going, "what sin" is she saying she has? I keep wondering how much of her being the culprit with at least the bomb is true...
You know, even in Bern's EP7 Tea Party, Beatrice isn't the one who sets off the bomb.
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Old 2011-01-09, 15:56   Link #21416
Will Wright
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
You know, even in Bern's EP7 Tea Party, Beatrice isn't the one who sets off the bomb.
The true ending:

Beatrice: "The switch is off."
Eva: "LIES."[turns it on]
Everyone: *Conveniently not seeing what Eva did*
Eva:"...I'm going to go to Kuwadorian because...yeah. Why not? Maybe there is some secret shit there."
[Stuff blows up]
Eva:"Oh wow. Oops."
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Old 2011-01-09, 18:25   Link #21417
witchfan
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Using that MMO analogy, we defeated the last boss and obtained the incredible rare item. I think even MMO players will argue with you about this.
Actually, using the same analogy we don't know if we defeated the boss, and we don't even know if there was a boss in the first--

This is why I don't like analogies, people. Ryukishi's is far-fetched enough. You're just stretching it to the realm of impossibilities!
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Old 2011-01-09, 18:41   Link #21418
Kylon99
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Well you know. My biggest concern right now is that it wasn't given an answer on what actually happened on Rokkenjima Prime, and that's something that EP8 was supposed to reveal in my opinion.
Ok, so you ARE concerned about what happened on Rokkenjima Prime. And that EP8 was supposed to show you this? Ok, I just want to sort out that this part of the story has absolutely nothing to do with the Beatrice Mysteries in regards to whether he promised us an answer or not.

I for one, did not expect an answer; in fact I totally expected the real events to be lost that day. This is why I reposted my original Author Theory posting. It wasn't an Author Theory post, but rather a post to explain why the Author Theory isn't useless. The most important idea to my post is that even though the true events of the day were lost, that we who are outside can still struggle to make sense of it.

The only promise for answers that I recognize is the ones for the mysteries. After EP1, and some way through EP2, I already suspected that a great tragedy had occurred where everything was wiped clean just like in Higurashi. But with the lack of magic in this world, it could not be revealed. (i.e. the lack of kakera and resetting the world to try again, like in Higurashi... basically the rise of the Author Theory)


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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Saying now that "the answers aren't that important" shows lack of coherence, and makes me think this "switch" just happens because of fanboyism rather than actual critic sense.
And so, I remember thinking at that time that Umineko was a story where infinite stories could be generated. The 'Endless' idea and that the true events of the day were wiped clean would be a central idea to this.

http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...postcount=7007

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Actually, I'm speculating that once we know the truth too we could start writing Umineko fan fiction. So long as the truth is the spine of the story it could be a legitimate Umineko story. I wonder if that was Ryukishi's ultimate goal in the end...

In fact, some people have already started doing so even though they don't know the answers yet. They know enough to try at this point...
So there hasn't been a 'switch' for me at all. The whole story has been going exactly as I foresaw. I mean, how many times does he have to say that there's no happy ending (in interviews and from characters mouths) for us to realize that there was no way to prevent the Ushiromiya family from dying? EP8 pretty much summed up what I was expecting; a bittersweet ending was the best ending possible...


I'm sorry to have to say what I was able to foresee. I'm not trying to say I was a genius because after I posted these ideas, I thought it should've been kinda obvious. But ultimately, I cannot argue that you should've seen this coming, if you hadn't been thinking the same things I had. I'm just saying that someone else could see this coming, so maybe you're mistaken about what was promised or not.

I can say that I picked up all these clues to arrive at the conclusion:
1. No happy end. Interviews and multiple EPs.
2. An explosion that cleans the island of evidence. EP1, EP4.
3. The question of Meta Ange trying to change the events so that someone can come back but then realizing that no one will be coming back. Furthermore if someone comes back that they wouldn't be coming back for her. EP4.
4. The question of which world is real and the emergence and validation of the Author Theory. Suggested at end of EP1. Question came up in EP2 and beyond. Verified in EP6, 7 and 8.
5. Beatrice being described as 'Endless' and therefore Umineko was like a shifting maze; endless stories are possible. Bernkastel's Letter, EP1 or 2 and the emergence of the Author Theory.

There's more; the whole theme of the story is about what truth can be had when the truth is shut up in a cat box. Until it can be revealed both mystery and fantasy can be made to exist. And it's been said that the mysteries are beautiful; or that the fantasy is a lie to soothe your heart. Or that they are what gives rise to love between author and reader. This is what the story has been going on and on and on again. You don't expect EP8 to betray that do you?


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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
But I believe that one year ago the people that expected a full solution and trusted that Ryuukishi would give that (to the point where they would actually argue against those that would deny that) were the vast majority.
To the Beatrice Mysteries. Sure. If that's what you're after, then I agree with you. Although I won't go around saying that he's a bad author or anything like some of the other message boards on the internet. (Like Klashikari said... even though people have just been raging at spoilers... heh)


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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Neither do I, but unless he decides to make an extra episode that shows all the answers, it won't be the same thing. He might eventually give us all the confirmations we need in an interview, but that's sad.
Actually, someone said he wanted to do an Umineko Rei. I was wondering about this and it seems to me, unless he actually said the word "Rei" himself, that he should do an Umineko Kai. As in "解式" or solution/explanation. 8)


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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Of course Kylon! After all he just confirmed that some kind of explosion happened. He didn't explain what actually caused that explosion. Unless you think that the 900tons of explosive are the truth, but seeing as how the whole story isn't very realistic and seeing as how the whole EP7 tea party isn't confirmed at being the truth (actually I think EP8 suggests the opposite), then I can't really see that as a satisfying answer.

And as I pointed out already, he'd still need to explain how such a ridiculous event was considered an "unfortunate incident" and no one was blamed.
I don't see how 900t of left over explosives would be too unrealistic, actually. As someone I know from the army said; we're all overestimating the organizational abilities of the military. And to boot, this was a military that just surrendered and some of the high ranking leaders executed. I mean, they've left soldiers on islands up till 1975, even... 8)

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I think the Taiwan/Qilian theory is a prime example of what I consider a clear explanation. Come on, he went as far as explaining it TWICE! I would have been satisfied just after the first time.
Here's the problem. The explanation is satisfying to you, but it wasn't to some other poster I remembered reading. He brought up that it seems Qilian was not a right solution because of the pinyin system that uses Q wasn't invented until the 50's or 60's, basically by the Communists. Taiwan never inherited that and so it should've been.... etc, etc.

However, I remember reading about that area and in the 1920's and it really was romanized with a Qilian. Because I was also wondering why they used a 'Q.' But for whatever reason they did.

So you see what's going on here. That guy who didn't know that answer, would still have this 'question' in his mind. I'm saying you still have this same 'question' to Ryukishi and you demand an answer. An answer he told you already.

Maybe your real question should be, is the EP7 Tea Party information reliable?

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Oh by the way... don't get the wrong idea that I just need the answers and then I'll be satisfied. I was actually awaiting for the answers so that I could then judge whether they were satisfying or not. It's not like any kind of explanation will work.
You can decide for yourself whether you're satisfied or not. This is your prerogative. But if any of us don't know enough and judge that the explanation doesn't work, then this is our own fault and not the fault of Ryukishi. In essense, anger from ignorance.

(I'm not talking about you of course, I know you do your homework. )
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Old 2011-01-09, 20:41   Link #21419
Kylon99
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Originally Posted by Will Wright View Post
That's what how I look at it. I don't dislike the idea, but his execution was way off. He seems to genuinely believe that we are fine with not getting our solution confirmed, which is hardly true. This is akin to running a marathon, knowing your time was great, but not being told how it compared to everyone else's time. Not really the best feeling in the world.

But really, I think we are going to get an answer in the end. If not, then it will be disappointing, but it doesn't hurt to wait until Rei comes out right? Maybe it will have all answers there and we have time to think until it comes out.

It doesn't hurt to be a bit optimistic here.
I think the fans will rip it out of him if he doesn't do it himself. 8) But in all honesty, I think he's aware that he doesn't have that last chapter where the detective comes in and just solves the whole thing for you, no thinking involved. That's why I think there will be one more Umineko; although it may not be a sound novel... could be a long tip or a very short sound novel for free where Erika just comes in and explains everything to you. And maybe insults you. 8)

Or Battler, maybe... that would be kinder. 8)

When he said that it's the End of the Mystery, to me at first I thought it meant the solution should be available now... but... now that I think about it, I think he just meant that there won't be any new mysteries spun.

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
You know, even in Bern's EP7 Tea Party, Beatrice isn't the one who sets off the bomb.
Hmmm.. so what sin did she have? Was it just that she couldn't wait for Battler to come back? Is that it? Or... because she couldn't wait, that she caused the tragedy? Somehow? Hmmm...

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Originally Posted by witchfan View Post
Actually, using the same analogy we don't know if we defeated the boss, and we don't even know if there was a boss in the first--

This is why I don't like analogies, people. Ryukishi's is far-fetched enough. You're just stretching it to the realm of impossibilities!
It's like in one of those Final Fantasy moments... you wipe out the last boss and the story takes a rest. All of a sudden the ground shakes, Cloud goes, "What's happening?" And then.. battle screen. A one-winged angel appears, the chorus of death starts chanting and you start to feel the bile rise.

Because that's when you realize you used up all your potions in the last battle.
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Old 2011-01-09, 20:46   Link #21420
AuraTwilight
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Hmmm.. so what sin did she have? Was it just that she couldn't wait for Battler to come back? Is that it? Or... because she couldn't wait, that she caused the tragedy? Somehow? Hmmm...
Hypothetical: She set up an Epitaph Mystery game where people pretend to be dead. Battler needs to solve it and then he and Yasu will be reunited, she'll give everyone money to fix their problems, yaaay!

But then someone else, let's say George as a Culprit X, flipped out and killed everyone, using the game as a cover so no one notices until it's too late.

It's Yasu's fault...she gave him the perfect opportunity...and she killed herself because of it.
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