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Old 2009-09-18, 17:55   Link #2141
Dlanor .A. Nox
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-The only way to lock this door is with Jessica's single key, or with the master keys, which there are one per servant

Gohda locked a door in Natsuhi's room repeatedly manually however this may not be true for Jessica's room, I refer to Natsuhi's room as well as Eva's I bear no such claim with Jessica's although it should be possible to lock manually from the inside

-Entry and exit is impossible when the door is locked

The killer for Eva and Hideyoshi was in the room at the time of death, as for Natsuhi's room during the second game, the killer did not enter the room, merely cut a hole, killed Gohda and proceeded to unlock the door. This does not count as entry as only a hand is within the confines of a room.

-There is no device that can lock the door from the outside without the key


A hand can fit into a room, this qualifies that the killer is both on the outside and inside also this isn't a mechanism but it is operating one the lock itself!

-It is impossible to unlock the door without the servant's room key or without the master keys


From the outside this is true however from the inside this is entirely a different matter as we witnessed Gohda locking the door to Natsuhi's room from the inside it is logical almost all rooms follow this mechanism.

Quote:

The term closed room refers to a room where the inside and the outside of the room are completely separated. Obviously, for any form of intrusion or escape, no intervention is possible. That comprehensively includes a denial of hidden doors, as well as all margin for intervention from the outside.
This does not cover from the inside where the killer is, as I have stated before.

Quote:
Henceforth, this definition will be referred to as
Beatrice's closed room definition!

It refers to all types of direct intervention from the outside, such as using a fishing line or a long, thin rod. In conclusion, there is no gap in the doors and windows where those tricks will work.

I refer to a hand manually operating the lock. The door is compromised. You are referring to the frame of a door/window.


Quote:
I add to this definition that it is impossible for radio waves and related methods of remote control to interfere.
Nowhere do I state that radio signals are used in my theory.

Quote:
All direct and indirect methods of interfering from the outside of the room to the inside of the closed room are impossible.
A hand from the inside is not interference from the outside, the source is, however when referring strictly from the inside, a hand able to interfere is possible.

In short

Gohda, George, and Shannon were killed inside the room, the killer was both inside and outside the term Schroedinger's Cat is applicable here where a killer can BOTH be inside and outside a room at the same time, yet not interfere with the red truth which is questionable, after killing Gohda who most likely was under the same hallucination as George and Shannon, the killer proceeded to open the door while Shannon and George were DISTRACTED by the box, the killer then killed Shannon and George through unknown means.

Eva and Hideyoshi were both killed by the killer inside their room, the killer hid and waited for the right time in order to kill them, after waiting for anyone to discover the room is silent, the killer then started the time limit, the accomplice either picked up the trap/or the killer escaped, created the locked room while NO ONE was around by cutting out a segment of the door, afterwards using the space provided the killer proceeded to lock the door and begin repairing the door with paint and replacing the missing segment which was most likely weakened since the door has panels. The paint itself while drawing attention no one would dare touch it since it's part of evidence for the police, no one investigated the door afterwards.
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Last edited by Dlanor .A. Nox; 2009-09-18 at 18:08.
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Old 2009-09-18, 18:06   Link #2142
~Diru~
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I'm not sure about this, but does

The door and the window do not permit any kind of entry or exit when they are locked

also count for this closed room?

If so, it would contradict with "The hand from outside, but strictly seen inside" because the hand would not be able to exit the room after locking it.
(Although that sounds kinda stupid )
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Old 2009-09-18, 18:13   Link #2143
Dlanor .A. Nox
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The door is compromised, there is no chance of entry while the door is locked, however the hand "unlocked" the door, rendering the red truth useless, as a hand does not count as entry.

Of course the entire argument can undergo different interpretations. However I'm claiming a hand does not count as entry as the killer is inbetween the door itself, rendering the killer a Schroedinger's cat, a logical paradox.
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Old 2009-09-18, 18:14   Link #2144
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Well... If you think about it, there is no need of a hole on the door or something to exist.
Let's think of it as a scene heavily manipulated by Beatrice. So yeah, Beelzebub went through the door and staked Gohda, killing him.
Now let's look at it from another perspective. Remember Gohda couldn't lock the door? It was too late, and the culprit reached the door. Then he just opened the door, and since Gohda was already panicking there was no resistance from him. Culprit kills Gohda.
Or... what if the culprit was inside the room? There are lots and lots of possibilities.
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Old 2009-09-18, 18:20   Link #2145
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But how did he get inside?
Wasn't Natsuhi's key the only one that fit there?
I can't remember that being said in Red though...
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Old 2009-09-18, 18:29   Link #2146
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Wasn't Gohda trying to lock the door? Or was it already locked, and he was trying to pull the manual lock? Gah, can't remember. @_@
There's still the possibility that the culprit was inside the room, though. :3
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Old 2009-09-18, 18:29   Link #2147
Dlanor .A. Nox
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If all members of the ushiromiya household had the same type of lock as Natsuhi, (Keyhole outside mechanism inside) That renders half of the red truth useless, since they CAN be unlocked and locked from the inside contradicting the ones that state they can ONLY be locked and unlocked with a key.
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Old 2009-09-18, 18:34   Link #2148
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I'm pretty sure that Gohda turned the manual lock to close the door from the inside but it flipped back into it's original spot.
Well with Jessica's room it is already said that it can be ONLY locked with key => Keyhole inside, I also think she or s.o. else said that she locked the door from the inside or sth. like this.
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Old 2009-09-18, 18:34   Link #2149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EndlessNine View Post
Well... If you think about it, there is no need of a hole on the door or something to exist.
Let's think of it as a scene heavily manipulated by Beatrice. So yeah, Beelzebub went through the door and staked Gohda, killing him.
Now let's look at it from another perspective. Remember Gohda couldn't lock the door? It was too late, and the culprit reached the door. Then he just opened the door, and since Gohda was already panicking there was no resistance from him. Culprit kills Gohda.
Or... what if the culprit was inside the room? There are lots and lots of possibilities.
That makes sense to me.

1) Shannon leads George and Gohda to Natsuhi's room where the culprit is waiting inside. She could have been an accomplice against her will or mabye she was given the hint about the mirror by the culprit and the culprit knew she would eventually come for it.

2) Culprit kills everyone in the room and locks the doors and windows.

3) Hides.

4) After the bodies are discovered the culprit leaves the room.
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Old 2009-09-18, 18:39   Link #2150
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That makes sense to me.

1) Shannon leads George and Gohda to Natsuhi's room where the culprit is waiting inside. She could have been an accomplice against her will or mabye she was given the hint about the mirror by the culprit and the culprit knew she would eventually come for it.

2) Culprit kills everyone in the room and locks the doors and windows.

3) Hides.

4) After the bodies are discovered the culprit leaves the room.
The culprit should have left the room after killing those 3, as he had a key(to get into the room) he was able to close it from the outside, this way it can also get around the No one is hiding Truth if it is also used by Natsuhi's room was exactly the same, just like usual
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Old 2009-09-18, 18:44   Link #2151
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Quote:
The killer for Eva and Hideyoshi was in the room at the time of death, as for Natsuhi's room during the second game, the killer did not enter the room, merely cut a hole, killed Gohda and proceeded to unlock the door. This does not count as entry as only a hand is within the confines of a room.

A hand can fit into a room, this qualifies that the killer is both on the outside and inside also this isn't a mechanism but it is operating one the lock itself!

Gentlemen, I will humbly state the following:

According to Beatrice's closed room definition, there is no gap or any kind of crack that could allow any object to pass through a door when such door is closed. If there is not gap big enough to make a thin rod or a fishing line to pass, then it is impossible for a gap that can make a whole hand to pass to exist Therefore a gap that can allow a hand to pass is forbidden.
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Old 2009-09-18, 18:47   Link #2152
Ssol
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ~Diru~ View Post
The culprit should have left the room after killing those 3, as he had a key(to get into the room) he was able to close it from the outside, this way it can also get around the No one is hiding Truth if it is also used by Natsuhi's room was exactly the same, just like usual
I wouldn't apply those reds so quickly.

No one is hiding at the time of the red declaration but it doesn't mean that no one was hiding nor does it mean no one will be hiding.

The red about it being the same as the room before can just simply be interpreted as her meaning that it's just another closed room. Natsuhi's room is different because she adds the additional reds:
The door and the windows were locked from the inside.
There is no fraud or trick, there is no means of secret passage and no hidden place.
Natsuhi's own key was in George's pocket and the inside of the room was closed off.
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Old 2009-09-18, 18:50   Link #2153
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Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
Stuffed animals can't speak for themselves so Maria is wrong. It's all in her mind.
People die when they are killed, too.

And yet the Battler from the first game, who is dead in the real world, is clearly still around.

It's the whole cat in the box thing, right? There are two explanations for everything. Both are true.

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At some point you have to seperate fiction and reality or else you become delusional.
And I'm not saying that a witch killed anyone, it's clearly a human committing the murders.

I'm just saying that Sakutaro is as 'real' as Beatrice, or Virgilia, or, most importantly, Lambda and Bern.

Cold, hard, magic-denying anti-fantasy is not the key to solving this story. The key is, if you ask me, combining both viewpoints together.

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Originally Posted by Kamar View Post
And nothing after the first mystery counts at all.
This is probably true though, in some ways.

Maybe.

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Originally Posted by Kamar View Post
I'd like to think this isn't one of those crap stories where everything is a dying dream metaphor or something.
God, yeah. This is why I think witches and magic have to exist in some, perhaps not entirely tangible form, otherwise the ending is going to suck.

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Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
I think there will be a logical and non-magic explanation for all the murders that occured.
Yes, the murders. All Battler has to do is prove witches didn't kill anyone. That doesn't mean he has to prove that they don't 'exist'.
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Old 2009-09-18, 18:50   Link #2154
Megaolix
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Mmm... Has anything been said for the mystery of the numbers? 07151129

We saw them with George's corpse in Ep3. In Ep4, in Ange's time, it was to give you access to a vault with money.
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Old 2009-09-18, 18:50   Link #2155
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I just wanted to point out that it would be stupid to wait in the room, when you don't plan to kill the ones who will after a while come in it.
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Old 2009-09-18, 18:51   Link #2156
Dlanor .A. Nox
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The killer is inside the room! He opened the door and then did it. this is an easy way to crush the red but cheating so here. After resealing the red can then be stated and be true, I think the Time of Death trick was used at the end of ep 5 explains this very well. No one discovered this trick.
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Old 2009-09-18, 18:53   Link #2157
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It's not really that stupid, if you were hiding to prevent others from discovering you. Then, after everyone leaves the room, you can get out safely and go on with the murders.
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Old 2009-09-18, 18:58   Link #2158
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Hmm I thought by staying in the room, you would be in a dangerous situation from Culprit POV

1. There is a high Possibility that they will come to the room, as Genji knows about the others heading there.

2. There are enough rooms in the mansion to hide, where they wouldn't just go into as they barricade themselfes.

3. If they decided to search the room, it would be Game Over, again, staying in just any other room would be safer.
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Old 2009-09-18, 19:06   Link #2159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
There are two explanations for everything. Both are true.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
The key is, if you ask me, combining both viewpoints together.
I understand what you are trying to say but you shouldn't contradict yourself so quickly.

As many people have theorized before we will probably get a Higurashi like truth in the end with both real world and magic world explanations for everything.
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Old 2009-09-18, 19:09   Link #2160
EndlessNine
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Yeah, I guess you're right. There was plenty of time for the culprit to get out of the room and hide; I forgot about that. Stupid memory.
But wouldn't that mean one of the previous deaths were faked? I think everyone's location was known when Shannon, George and Gohda were killed. That's interesting~
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