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Old 2011-01-21, 02:25   Link #21601
AuraTwilight
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Okay, Judoh, I love you. <3

But in all seriousness, yea, no way in hell Yasu is a mass murderer. It doesn't fit with the fucking doorstopper of a novel that she told us.

Quote:
its hard to find her motive but i can see clearly that its revenge.i don't really know to why but probably because of battler's sin.
Battler's sin is basically that he took so long to come back to her. So...she loves him...and so she decides to kill his whole family when he finally comes back to her? What? That makes no sense.

On top of that, when Battler learned all of the truth, HE apologized to HER. He was so mad and hateful and angry at Beatrice, treating her as a monster...UNTIL he learned her true nature and who she really was. Which means that whatever he learned showed him that she's not an evil figure, and mass murder is evil.
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Old 2011-01-21, 02:38   Link #21602
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by unsuspectingvisitor View Post
its hard to find her motive but i can see clearly that its revenge.i don't really know to why but probably because of battler's sin.
EP5. Her goal isn't to have revenge on someone.
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Old 2011-01-21, 02:40   Link #21603
unsuspectingvisitor
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Okay, Judoh, I love you. <3

But in all seriousness, yea, no way in hell Yasu is a mass murderer. It doesn't fit with the fucking doorstopper of a novel that she told us.



Battler's sin is basically that he took so long to come back to her. So...she loves him...and so she decides to kill his whole family when he finally comes back to her? What? That makes no sense.

On top of that, when Battler learned all of the truth, HE apologized to HER. He was so mad and hateful and angry at Beatrice, treating her as a monster...UNTIL he learned her true nature and who she really was. Which means that whatever he learned showed him that she's not an evil figure, and mass murder is evil.
i didn't mean she's a murderer. i said last time that she's the mastermind but she didn't do the actual killing,i think her accomplice did the killing

maybe battler's sin only applies to the meta-world not to the real world hehehe.
but still it doesn't change the fact that she plans to kill all of them.

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EP5. Her goal isn't to have revenge on someone.
what do you think her goal is? i end up with that conclusion and i didn't know whatelse it might be
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Old 2011-01-21, 03:11   Link #21604
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what do you think her goal is? i end up with that conclusion and i didn't know whatelse it might be
Yasu's motive, for me, is as mysterious as the real situation of her boobs...If she just plan the murder game to get Battler to understand or to get the family to solve the epitah and finish her whatever Russian roulette, I still could somewhat swallow. But for her to kill everyone? The heck?

Quote:
Battler's sin is basically that he took so long to come back to her. So...she loves him...and so she decides to kill his whole family when he finally comes back to her? What? That makes no sense.
Yes, I agree, that makes no sense whatsoever...Whatever Yasu has discovered, for her to go on killing people is still nonsense. The dialogue between Battler and Virgilia had destroyed most theory I could have about her motive before reading ep 6, and with Battler's attitude, maybe it's safe to assume she DID NOT actually plan to kill everyone, or anyone at all? But her existence is still significant for the tragedy to happen, and that's why we are told to learn about Beatrice's heart? Sorry if what I said is something discussed before.

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i didn't mean she's a murderer. i said last time that she's the mastermind but she didn't do the actual killing,i think her accomplice did the killing
May I beg is this makes any differences if she has accomplices done that or she killed everybody by herself at all?

No, it makes no difference for me, and therefore that theory did not satisfy me at all.
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Old 2011-01-21, 03:24   Link #21605
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Quote:
i didn't mean she's a murderer. i said last time that she's the mastermind but she didn't do the actual killing,i think her accomplice did the killing

maybe battler's sin only applies to the meta-world not to the real world hehehe.
but still it doesn't change the fact that she plans to kill all of them.
Dude, Yasu's so timid, helpless, and overly sweet that she can't even work up the courage to make a phonecall. How in the hell is she going to plot mass murder, and who would help her do it?
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Old 2011-01-21, 03:33   Link #21606
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I am not saying in anyway she is a massmurderer, a fake murdery for a "Battle of the wits" yes maybe but everything else is hard to swallow.
To answer who would help: Yasu/Clair said that she was a Ringleader. Genji and Kumasawa would help since she is the head maybe even Nanjo. Then there are these who would help in a fake murdery (Hideyoshi in EP1) or someone who would profit from it and get away with it (Kyrie)

Edit: also Umineko is pretty stinted when its about Dates. It just recently came to my mind that Battler was 12 and Shannon was 10 (13 if she is Yasu) when he said his Knight on the white horse line. It's hard to swallow that she would kill everyone because of that. Even if she is physicaly older when you treat someone 3 years younger the whole time it doesn't help, especially in social skills.
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Last edited by winter 923; 2011-01-21 at 04:04.
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Old 2011-01-21, 04:14   Link #21607
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Originally Posted by unsuspectingvisitor View Post
what do you think her goal is? i end up with that conclusion and i didn't know whatelse it might be
Whether we go by the idea that she actually killed everyone or that she's just a fake killer, the reason imho is "to be understood and found by Battler".

After all the special bond that united Battler and Shannon were murder mysteries. It wasn't so unreasonable to use a murder mystery as a way to make Battler remember.

Of course in the hypothesis that Yasu killed people for real then that means she's completely crazy, because even if the "miracle" would be granted that couldn't end well with corpses lying around.

Unless the only real murder she planned was a bomb explosion, in which case the actual crime would happen after Battler's failure.
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Old 2011-01-21, 04:32   Link #21608
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Something I just realized: Yasu writing a series of mystery stories about Battler and Beatrice was hinted all the way back in Alliance.

Remember that weird conversation between Piece-Battler and Piece-Beatrice, where it sounded like Beato was invoking meta-knowledge? Something like: "We've fought many times before, but this is our first time meeting face-to-face on the game board."
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Old 2011-01-21, 04:39   Link #21609
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yeah you guys are right,battler's sin has nothing to do with the truth.
hahaha

i kinda know the "who dunnit" and "how dunnit"(its about the how the closed room murder are created) but i didn't about "why dunnit"

about the how dunnit,remember the logic error battler have problems with on ep6 and kanon help him to get out of the closed room.i think this is a clue how the culprit did the closed room murders.someone(i assume the someone was an accomplice) help the culprit escape, the accomplice enter the room and closed the room from the inside.he then hide somewhere in the room.

and in ep5 it shows how the accomplice escape the room,i think its in the second twilight when hideyoshi was killed.
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Old 2011-01-21, 04:43   Link #21610
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Okay putting on my serious face now.

I can handle the culprit being insane if I'm told that. And we do kind of get that implication with Yasu/Beatrice. I don't like that more than other ideas, but it's much better to me than adding a motive in just because one needs to be there. I might be able to accept it if Ryukishi said that's what the truth was, but I don't think I would be entertained.

I have my own interpretation on the motive, but I would love to see an answer so that I can say what it is. I don't think we'll ever get one though.
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Old 2011-01-21, 04:57   Link #21611
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Okay putting on my serious face now.

I can handle the culprit being insane if I'm told that. And we do kind of get that implication with Yasu/Beatrice. I don't like that more than other ideas, but it's much better to me than adding a motive in just because one needs to be there. I might be able to accept it if Ryukishi said that's what the truth was, but I don't think I would be entertained.

I have my own interpretation on the motive, but I would love to see an answer so that I can say what it is. I don't think we'll ever get one though.
what implication with yasu/beatrice are you taking about? really i didn't get what you mean.
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Old 2011-01-21, 05:03   Link #21612
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what implication with yasu/beatrice are you taking about? really i didn't get what you mean.
Reacting to Battler by killing everyone he loves is not what you could call sane. There's also some questions about her sense of right and wrong that are raised in Episode 3.

Last edited by Judoh; 2011-01-21 at 05:16.
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Old 2011-01-21, 05:26   Link #21613
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Reacting to Battler by killing everyone he loves is not what you could call sane. There's also some questions about her sense of right and wrong that are raised in Episode 3.
but still battler can still be a suspect
just think why would battler attend the family reunion as i call it after 6 years of not showing up ? doesn't make sense to me.
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Old 2011-01-21, 05:34   Link #21614
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"Rudolf literally prostrates in front of Battler to ask for his forgiveness and finally Battler returns back to his father home."
Just a few months before the family meeting. The question is still "why all of sudden" but for Rudolf
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Old 2011-01-21, 05:47   Link #21615
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That, and there's the possibility that he remembered his promise to Shannon and was going to return to her. Just because Fictional Battler doesn't know anything only means that Yasu thinks or expects that Battler doesn't remember.

It's certainly suspicious that he doesn't come back in Lion's world, where the promise does not exist.
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Old 2011-01-21, 06:35   Link #21616
ngng
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Instead of blaming Kinzo for the bomb, I think we should blame him for giving birth to Yasu, Yasu is Battler's cousin and aunt at the same time which means that they would not get the happy ending when they know the truth, the chance of them marrying would be as much as the chance of George and Jessica marrying.

One of the ending in Ep8 Battler recalls his memories of the tragedy by writing fantasy novels about the witch games after losing his love is the best ending It was like Minagoroshi from Higurashi. I think that after going through Umineko for so long I do not expect it to have a happy ending.

Many people are unsatisfying with that ending but I would say otherwise, because that what makes it worthwhile and interesting. If you have the perfect happy ending "They marry and then live happily ever after" it would be just some common fairytale we all read in childhood, extremely boring. Sometimes in real life, we might come up with difficult situation and things won't always go as plan, but that is life and I respect the creator for coming up with that ending to reflect real life situation. It's the best ending that explains everything logically from a scientific point of view without magic is that ending above in the spoiler. In other word it is a sad tragic story of love brought in motion since the time Kinzo decided to get involve with Beatrice.

I wish someone who finished all Episodes can compile a list to recall events in chronological order, Ryuukishi told the story in a roundabout way instead of linearly (however should do it after WitchHunt finish their patch for Ep8), but it is very interesting and it surpass Higurashi by giving different clues in many episodes to unravel a past event that already happened instead of reaching a new future like in Higurashi Matsuribayashi. I am totally satisfied with this story and I don't think I can probably write one similar to this compelling story. That is my view, what about you?
Hachijo Toya of 1998 is future version of Battler of 1986 similar to ZONE is the future Fudo Yusei in YGO 5D

Last edited by ngng; 2011-01-21 at 08:12.
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Old 2011-01-21, 07:08   Link #21617
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. It's the best ending that explains everything logically from a scientific point of view without magic is that ending above in the spoiler.
I don't understand what do you mean by scientific, but logically there is many things keep bugging me. Shkanon being one. Either Kanon just exists in the gameboard, the fiction and not in the real world, his/her relationship with the two cousins and the others is strange


Quote:
about the how dunnit,remember the logic error battler have problems with on ep6 and kanon help him to get out of the closed room.i think this is a clue how the culprit did the closed room murders.someone(i assume the someone was an accomplice) help the culprit escape, the accomplice enter the room and closed the room from the inside.he then hide somewhere in the room.
Oh, and I thought it is a big hint for all the personalities-counted-as-human.
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Old 2011-01-21, 08:02   Link #21618
ngng
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Scientifically speaking there is no magic, that is what I meant.
Without the English patch for Ep8, I can only take a guess according to my understanding if you don't mind.
If you think about it, Yasu's birth was already strange in itself (being Kinzo's daughter and granddaughter at the same time). My guess is Kanon does not exist in the real story, Ep7 explained that Yasu has many personality, but I think she does not disguise herself as Kanon or Shannon in the real story which involved the real Battler in ep8. Rather her hidden feelings inside her head develop those personalities, but no one know or else she would have end up in the hospital. I think she conceals those personality so that only she knows about them instead of admitting them openly like Maria lest she risk losing her job.
Yasu or Yasuda is only human body and she looks like Lion, everyone would knows her as either Yasuda or Shannon, Kanon the boy does not exist as a human body.

Why she develop Kanon might be due to the complicated feeling and immature feeling she might have toward Jessica when they were young and accumulated stress and belief that Battler does not come back due to him not writing her a letter as explained in ep7 in a magical way.

Dating George is also a replacement for Battler, but Yasu loves Battler the most so when Battler finally comes back in 1986, she decides to get back to him by testing him with the epitaph I think and the gold was revealed but Kyrie started the killing spree due to her greed and almost everyone dies except the two of them. They both did not want the gold (different from Kinzo and Beatrice I) so after the massacre, they both decided to commit suicide, but unfortunately, Battler survived so we have the 3-6 games as fantasy novel written by the surviving Battler, the 1-2 games are stories in the wine bottles (somewhat similar to Keichi's message in Onikakushi) written either by Yasu or both of them before suicide (remember they both loved mystery novels) as a diversion to the true story. Maybe Yasu did not want outsiders to dig in and investigate the many dirty stories about the Ushiromiya family because she and Battler are both Ushiromiya and related somewhat, or they might want to compete who wrote a better story before dying.

That is my speculation before the English patch comes out. Ep7 gives more extra hints and history and confirms Yasu=Shannon=Kanon all along, but ep1-7 are probably fantasy or parallel worlds, as much as I like the parallel world theory, the current world in which we exist now is more important, I probably would not dismiss them because they give background info and motives to the crimes, but don't take them as different kakera like in Higurashi because Ep8 told us that the story already has definite ending that makes sense and wrap up all episodes as a whole so ep1-7 does not have any influence on the real event that already happened to the real Battler (Hachijo Toya in 1998). It only give us clue and insight to uncover the real story.

So in conclusion, Battler and Yasu are victims of a sad tragic love story that does not have a happy ending much less a perfect ending (a perfect ending would be either they both die or survive) Remember, this is my speculation after knowing about that one specific ending in ep8, I cannot read Japanese so I can only wait for the English patch. If you rearrange all episodes in the right order from the wine bottle 1-2, then comes tells what really happen in real world of from 1986 to 1998 in ep8 and then says Battler wrote the story from ep3-6 then that would make perfect sense. I think ep7 should stand alone as Beatrice's and Yasu's story instead of combining it with the fantasy novels Battler wrote minus the magical aspect and then we would get the most linear and understandable novel of all time.

One last thing, it's ironic that Battler who inherited Kinzo's blood the most would fall in love with Kinzo and Beatrice II's daughter Yasu who though only possessed 1/4 Italian Blood still somewhat looks like young Beatrice when she let loose her long golden hair (watch Umineko Graphic Motion Vol.8 that has spoiler for Ep7). So as you call it "fate" let Kinzo ties himself with Beatrice and fall in love with her 3 times, 2 times directly and 1 time indirectly through the grandson who inherit his blood the thickest (Battler looks like young Kinzo except the hair). A sweet story with a sad ending.

Last edited by ngng; 2011-01-21 at 08:38.
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Old 2011-01-21, 08:22   Link #21619
Jan-Poo
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Instead of blaming Kinzo for the bomb, I think we should blame him for giving birth to Yasu
Why can't I blame him for both? Besides I tend to think that being involved in mass murder is a more serious crime than incest.


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Many people are unsatisfying with that ending but I would say otherwise, because that what makes it worthwhile and interesting.
I think most people are unsatisfied with the lack of answers rather than the lack of a good ending.

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Originally Posted by ngng View Post
I wish someone who finished all Episodes can compile a list to recall events in chronological order.
I haven't finished EP8 yet, but this list should cover almost everything:

1906 Ca. Kumasawa's birth
1923 Kanto earthquake exterminates the main family branch of the Ushiromiya and destroys their wealth
1945 Kinzo meets Beatrice Castiglioni on Rokkenjima
1948 Ca. Captain Kawabata starts transporting goods to Rokkenjima's Kuwadorian
1950 Kinzo makes a huge fortune from the Korean war
1952 The Rokkenjima Mansion's construction is finshed
1956 Ca. Kinzo and his family move from Odawara to Rokkenjima
1956 Ca. The legend of the witch in the forest becomes popular between the servants
1956 Ca. Rumors about a Kinzo's secret lover hidden somewhere in Rokkenjima start spreading
1956 Krauss's and Natsuhi's marriage
1963 George's birth
1967 The daughter of Beatrice Castiglioni gives birth to a child from Kinzo
1967 Rosa meets that woman in Kuwadarion, but that woman dies soon after escaping
1967 Captain Kawabata stops transporting goods to Rokkenjima's Kuwadorian
1967 Kinzo arranges the adoption of a fukuin child for Natsuhi and Krauss, that child is actually Lion the child Kinzo had from Beatrice's daughter
1967 Three days after, the baby falls from a cliff alongside a young servant that was carrying him. The baby somehow survived
1967 Believing that for the third time "Beatrice" was taken away from him, Kinzo secludes himself in a life of retirement studying occult
1967 Both Kyrie and Asumu get pregnant
1967-1968 Rudolf's and Asumu's marriage
1968 (before 15 july) Jessica's birth
1968 (15 July) Battler's birth
1970 Shannon's and Yasu's supposed birthdate
1970 Kanon's supposed birthdate
1976 Lion starts working in the Ushiromiya's Mansion as Yasu
1977 Maria's birth
1980 (October 4) Battler promises to Shannon that he would come with a white horse the next year to take her away.
1980 (after October 4) Asumu's death
1980 (Not much after Asumu's death) Rudolf's and Kyrie's marriage
1980 (Around the time of Rudolf's and Kyrie's marriage) Battler removes himself from the Ushiromiya family register and moves to his grandparents from his mother side
1980 Ange's birth
1981 (October 4) Kyrie and Ange attend their first family meeting on Rokkenjima.
1983 Kanon starts working in the Ushiromiya's Mansion
1984 The Guesthouse construction is completed
1984 (April) The Witch's epitaph is written and exposed
1984 (April or later) Incident of the servant falling from the stairs
1984 (between April and October) Gohda starts working in the Ushiromiya's Mansion
1984 (October) Last time Kinzo shows up at a family meeting
1984 Yasu solves the epitaph and becomes the new heir
1984 (November 29) Kinzo's death
1985 (October) Nanjo announces that Kinzo has about 3 months left to live
1986 (Summer) The Torii disappears (supposedly after being hit by a lightning)
1986 (Before October) The last of Battler's grandparents from his mother side die
1986 (Before October) Rudolf literally prostrates in front of Battler to ask for his forgiveness and finally Battler returns to his father's home and to the Ushiromiya family register
1986 (October 3) Ange gets sick
1986 (October 4) Last Ushiromiya family meeting
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Old 2011-01-21, 09:10   Link #21620
ngng
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OK, let's just blame Kinzo for both giving birth to Yasu and set up the bomb to kill everyone, but I think he was pretty much insane at that time when he lost Beatrice so if he has a lawyer to argue that he was mental, at least his sentence would be lighter.

More Event list, not sure about the date, but these are speculations based on spoilers of ep8, might as well add these until you finish ep8:

1986 October 5-6 The gold is found, Kyrie starts the massacre and killing each one. Battler knows about but cannot stop her due to she is his real mother, he can only run away with Yasu. Knowing that they cannot be together in life, each writes a story and puts in the wine bottle to distract the investigation and cover up the story due to family ties. They both commit suicide by jumping off the cliff. The bomb blows up and wipes out almost everything near the mansion (speculation only, not sure if the bomb is there in ep8).

1986 After mid October, investigation underway in the case of Ushiromiya massacre, but nothing comes up except the two messages in the wine bottles.

1986 somewhere in November or December or some years later, a novelist named Hachijo Ikuko comes to either Nijima or Rokkenjima) for info on Rokkenjima tragedy to write her mystery novels and found a man who lost his memories who believe himself to be 18 years old hence she names him Toya (need ep8 to know where Toya is found either on Rokkenjima or he was washed up on shore Nijima)

1986-1998 Toya lives with her for sometimes, they starts to develop mystery novels together.
Ikuko tells Toya about the Rokkenjima incidence after knowing about the messages in the wine bottle making him recall his memories as Battler. He breaks down and tries to commit suicide.
Ange finds her brother and Battler attempts to cover up the sad story, but in the end he decides to tell her the real story behind the incidence. (or could be that he wrote the story from ep3-6 and Ange finds him based on the author of the novel not believing any of them to be the true story).

The spoilers show small Ange during the conference and Eva pretty much love her so not sure whether Ange did attend the family conference or not and how she survives or the fate of Kyrie with/without the bomb.

Last edited by ngng; 2011-01-21 at 09:29.
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