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Old 2011-01-21, 11:22   Link #21621
Jan-Poo
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I'm not actually blaming Kinzo, it's a what if speculation. If he really did what he claimed to have done in his tall talks, then yes he's to blame. But did he actually do that?
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Old 2011-01-21, 11:43   Link #21622
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I think ep7 should stand alone as Beatrice's and Yasu's story instead of combining it with the fantasy novels Battler wrote minus the magical aspect and then we would get the most linear and understandable novel of all time.
Oh, I have a better theory here, Ep 7 is fan fiction!

And maybe I'm really slow, but Umineko is anything but understandable now.

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So as you call it "fate" let Kinzo ties himself with Beatrice and fall in love with her 3 times, 2 times directly and 1 time indirectly through the grandson who inherit his blood the thickest (Battler looks like young Kinzo except the hair). A sweet story with a sad ending.
Kinzo basically made a son/daughter out of his daughter. Very sweet indeed.
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Old 2011-01-21, 12:47   Link #21623
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Sorry for going off topic but this has been on my mind. I thought the explosion was going to be explained by a volcano after seeing that History Channel documentary of how they explained the mircales of God with a volcanic eruption (the river of blood, plages, death of first born son, parting of Red Sea). I think watching that documentary explain the works of God with science reminded me of Anti-Fanasty vs Anti-Mystery of Umineko. Of course now we know it was Kinzo's small bombs or sinkhole or whatever, though I think a volcano would have been cool.
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Old 2011-01-21, 12:59   Link #21624
ngng
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Well, if you eliminate the magical aspect and count the ending with Battler as Hachijo Toya recalling his tragic love story then suddenly everything becomes simple, but if you see the story as from ep1-6 and ignore 7 and 8, then that might be a little hard because Ep7 make it clear why Beatrice the Witch loved Battler so much.
If I remember it right, we never really pay attention to the promise in episode 1, remember when George or Jessica joke about how Battler promise to take Shannon away on a white horse, I cannot believe that promise actually has so much influence on the plot. Because I think we all thought that Shannon pretty much loved George, I cannot believe the clue to the answer of Battler's forgotten promise is right there and we might have missed it from the beginning.
The clueless Battler thought it was a joke (just like promise between childhood friends to get married when they get older) while Shannon/Yasu took it seriously. Poor girl waiting for 6 years and thought it would be eternity. I might have suspected the Battler and Shannon route from the beginning when the promise was first mentioned, but Ryukishi07 kill that thought by making George propose to Shannon and we all assume before ep7 that Shannon/Yasu only love one person and that person is George not Battler. Big mistake!!!
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Old 2011-01-21, 14:27   Link #21625
Renall
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
That, and there's the possibility that he remembered his promise to Shannon and was going to return to her. Just because Fictional Battler doesn't know anything only means that Yasu thinks or expects that Battler doesn't remember.

It's certainly suspicious that he doesn't come back in Lion's world, where the promise does not exist.
Indeed, though this raises certain interesting and somewhat unanswered questions regarding Rudolf's motives generally.

I mean, a lot of things about Rudolf are a little... odd.
  • If he's admitting to a baby swap... what the hell? Let alone apparently never telling either woman. Neither Asumu nor Kyrie deserved that, to say nothing of Battler himself.
  • He wants Battler back pretty bad. I'd almost say suspiciously bad. Most of the rest of the family doesn't seem to have taken Battler's departure all that seriously; people like Eva even laugh it off as youthful rebelliousness. If Battler-Prime didn't come back for reasons of his own (I think this more probable, but let's assume not), what the heck did Rudolf do to convince him?
  • Talking about being killed. Yeah, yeah, we know, the baby swap thing or something and he was talking metaphorically. Maybe. Except why now of all times to drop that bombshell? Why not later, when it's just the immediate family together? What if Battler and Kyrie flip out and make a scene in front of the whole family? I certainly wouldn't blame either of them for screaming at Rudolf over something like that. The timing is bad.
  • He's portrayed three times or more as being pretty cavalier about everything that's happening and just sort of goes along with Kyrie's various rampage ideas when they crop up. Again, what the hell? Does he have no moral integrity whatsoever?
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Old 2011-01-21, 16:03   Link #21626
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If you think about it, Yasu's birth was already strange in itself (being Kinzo's daughter and granddaughter at the same time). My guess is Kanon does not exist in the real story, Ep7 explained that Yasu has many personality, but I think she does not disguise herself as Kanon or Shannon in the real story which involved the real Battler in ep8. Rather her hidden feelings inside her head develop those personalities, but no one know or else she would have end up in the hospital. I think she conceals those personality so that only she knows about them instead of admitting them openly like Maria lest she risk losing her job.
Then what's with Kanon's and Shannon's struggle to both become "human" (the only personality)? If neither of them have been in "control" so to speak, well...

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Yasu or Yasuda is only human body and she looks like Lion, everyone would knows her as either Yasuda or Shannon, Kanon the boy does not exist as a human body.
She can't look like Lion, Lion's appearance is a placeholder Bernkastel gave him, and it's pretty much confirmed that Yasuda doesn't have blonde hair.

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* If he's admitting to a baby swap... what the hell? Let alone apparently never telling either woman. Neither Asumu nor Kyrie deserved that, to say nothing of Battler himself.
* He wants Battler back pretty bad. I'd almost say suspiciously bad. Most of the rest of the family doesn't seem to have taken Battler's departure all that seriously; people like Eva even laugh it off as youthful rebelliousness. If Battler-Prime didn't come back for reasons of his own (I think this more probable, but let's assume not), what the heck did Rudolf do to convince him?
* Talking about being killed. Yeah, yeah, we know, the baby swap thing or something and he was talking metaphorically. Maybe. Except why now of all times to drop that bombshell? Why not later, when it's just the immediate family together? What if Battler and Kyrie flip out and make a scene in front of the whole family? I certainly wouldn't blame either of them for screaming at Rudolf over something like that. The timing is bad.
* He's portrayed three times or more as being pretty cavalier about everything that's happening and just sort of goes along with Kyrie's various rampage ideas when they crop up. Again, what the hell? Does he have no moral integrity whatsoever?
To attempt to understand Rudolf's rationale:

* He's married to Asumu, therefore he felt he had to. He kept his mouth shut so they didn't murder him.
* I like the idea that Rudolf wanted Battler present since all the adults were going to attack for the headship/money. I can see how having Battler there as a potential "neutral" head would be beneficial. This opportunity does not exist in Lion's world. As for how he convinced Battler...Probably brought up meeting his cousins again. An idea I've recently thought of was that Ange's been sick for some time, like say a week with fever or something, thus why Battler was begged and asked. Leaving aside whether her illness is natural or not, it'd explain how "Beatrice" was able to predict that Ange wouldn't be coming.
* There's always the idea that Rudolf was contacted by Beatrice for the hypothetical Murder Mystery Game, and he was playing his part of being foreboding and aware of his fate to make things seem magical, or something.
* Three times? I can only count two, both of which are Bern's games in the final two episodes. And you know I don't trust those at all.
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Old 2011-01-21, 17:03   Link #21627
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Talking about being killed. Yeah, yeah, we know, the baby swap thing or something and he was talking metaphorically. Maybe. Except why now of all times to drop that bombshell? Why not later, when it's just the immediate family together? What if Battler and Kyrie flip out and make a scene in front of the whole family? I certainly wouldn't blame either of them for screaming at Rudolf over something like that. The timing is bad.
I was thinking that maybe Rudolf didn't have a choice. For example, perhaps Krauss had worked out the truth and was threating Rudolf. (In Ep. 1, Krauss was shown to be good at learning his relatives secrets, and holding onto them until the time was right.) Say, when they're alone for a few moments on Oct 4, Krauss tells Rudolf to back off, or Kyrie gets the truth. Rudolf decided that, while personally telling Kyrie would be bad, having her get the truth from Krauss would be far worse.
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Old 2011-01-21, 20:38   Link #21628
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Kyrie is the mastermind, Rudolf has no choice but to follow her wish because he loved her and because he just drop the bombshell about Battler being her real son which could piss her off because she always thought Battler was Asumu's son and she was extremely jealous of her. Since she knows the truth, maybe she kill the others to let her family of 4 become rich.

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She can't look like Lion, Lion's appearance is a placeholder Bernkastel gave him, and it's pretty much confirmed that Yasuda doesn't have blonde hair.
Is it confirmed in ep8 that Yasu does not have blond hair? I mean I thought ep7 implied Yasu looks similar to Lion in appearance (~Beatrice with loose hair).

About why Rudolf hide Battler's true birth and the motive for the switch:
1. I think one more reason is that Rudolf also really loved Asumu and since she is his official wife he rather hurt Kyrie than her so he does the baby swap. It is only possible if they are both pregnant at the same time, gone to the same hospital at the same time to give birth and they both become unconscious after giving birth or something. But what Kyrie believed as the result was reversed: Asumu'son died while Kyrie's son lived, but Rudolf lied to them both and dispose of the other baby while taking the infant Battler - Kyrie's son to show Asumu. I want to take a guess that Asumu at some point did find out about Rudolf cheating and that her son is ... well not really her biological son but because at least she is the official wife and she did not want to make a fuss since she knows Rudolf loved both her and Kyrie.

2. Or it could be that Asumu is actually an evil witch since she knows that her child dies so she gets pissed off about losing to Kyrie so she tells Rudolf to give her Kyrie's son or else she would tell the family about his cheating and he would be screwed. (But I would rather not think Asumu is such a person).

If Rudolf reveal the fact about Battler's birth sooner, Battler might have been able to fulfill his promise to take Yasu away although riding a white horse is just a figure of speech. Why? because he would have no reason to cut ties with the Ushiromiya family since his biological mother is still there, he would just hate his father for forgetting Asumu the mother who raised him all this time. He could have come back in 1981 and even if he forget the promise, Yasu would remind him of that.
But they might become happy or they might not depending on whether Genji wants to reveal the truth about Yasu's birth, then the ending would be they either both live or both die (in ep8 one of the ending said they both tried to die but Battler lived on and that is most unfortunate because he is constantly tortured by the lost love similar to Kinzo rambling on and on about Beatrice
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Old 2011-01-21, 21:19   Link #21629
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Is it confirmed in ep8 that Yasu does not have blond hair? I mean I thought ep7 implied Yasu looks similar to Lion in appearance (~Beatrice with loose hair).
She created Beatrice to look like Battler's ideal woman (Blonde hair is brought up to be one of the most important parts) and before that, was portrayed as having white hair. Compare with Shannon and Kanon, who are dark-haired, and it's pretty obvious that Yasuda is not a blonde.
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Old 2011-01-21, 21:54   Link #21630
ngng
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You know I am not so sure about that Beatrice the First is pure Italian, if we believe the portrait is of Beatrice the Second (and or the First) then she is blond hair, too despite being only half Italian blood, then if that logic follow, Beatrice the Second's daughter would have blond hair, too. Clair who had white hair is just a trick Bernkastel comes up with and Clair is not what Yasu really look like unless you assumes she inherit Kinzo's hair.

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She created Beatrice to look like Battler's ideal woman (Blonde hair is brought up to be one of the most important parts)
What if I turn the chessboard around and say that because Battler saw how beautiful Yasu is due to her Italian blood (blond hair, blue eyes) and she is also a mystery novel nut like he was, he falls in love with her and she then becomes his ideal woman. That would also be possible, isn't it? The piece Battler and the meta-Battler or the Endless Sorcerer are the recreations of Battler personality in an attempt to remind him of his promise and the consequence of not fulfilling the promise sooner. They are characters of the novels Battler wrote as Hachijo Toya to recall his lost memories. It's like trial and error, "let's test this theory and that theory until I arrive at the truth" or "The truth is too sad, I don't want others to know so let's cover it up by creating multiple truths."
About Yasu multiple personality disorder if we assume what Yasu said in Ep7 is true minus the part looking like Shannon or Kanon because she cannot change her appearance, disguising does not make sense imaging that she would have to convince everyone who live in the mansion to believe that Shannon and Yasu are in 2 different human bodies. Don't forget she was pretty young when she starts working in the mansion, then do you think a 9 year-old-kid is clever enough to think 10 years ahead of time how she gonna deceive everyone to carry her vengeance (in the real story, I would like to think that she was used by Kyrie to commit those murder before getting fed up with it and run away with Battler or Battler rescues her and then they jump off the cliff to be together in death but Battler survive)
Remind me of Chinese drama in which characters jumping off the cliff don't die. It could be suicide by other means but jumping off the cliff make more sense because Battler survive and lost his memories. There are more than one ending to Ep8 so unless the English patch come out and someone finish the story, these are only speculations.
Let's try to look at it from a real life situation instead of a magical standpoint because we got enough of magic since Ep1.

Last edited by ngng; 2011-01-21 at 22:13.
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Old 2011-01-21, 22:45   Link #21631
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You know I am not so sure about that Beatrice the First is pure Italian, if we believe the portrait is of Beatrice the Second (and or the First) then she is blond hair, too despite being only half Italian blood, then if that logic follow, Beatrice the Second's daughter would have blond hair, too. Clair who had white hair is just a trick Bernkastel comes up with and Clair is not what Yasu really look like unless you assumes she inherit Kinzo's hair.
Well, if Battler is any indication, Kinzo had red hair as a kid. Moreover, blonde hair is a very passive gene. It's enough of a miracle that it showed up in Beatrice 2, it's very unlikely it'd show up again (which is another reason why Lion would be a miracle that Yasuda doesn't have, I guess). If Yasuda's hair is blonde, then she must have been wearing a wig at almost all times, because there is no way in hell that it would've been ignored, especially after the painting was put up.

We know the Claire appearance is something Yasuda came up with, not Bern, because Asune mentions seeing a figure with white hair and a white dress hanging around in the Special VIP Room. And obviously, it's not Yasuda's natural haircolor, and it's certainly too long away. She uses wigs, we can't ignore this fact.

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What if I turn the chessboard around and say that because Battler saw how beautiful Yasu is due to her Italian blood (blond hair, blue eyes) and she is also a mystery novel nut like he was, he falls in love with her and she then becomes his ideal woman. That would also be possible, isn't it?
Well, neither Yasuda or Lion have blue eyes, and when Battler mentions his ideal woman, he specifically references "busty blonde babes like in Hollywood movies." He doesn't give any indication that Yasuda is an influence. Especially with the crass personality thing.

Face it, she's not blonde.

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About Yasu multiple personality disorder if we assume what Yasu said in Ep7 is true minus the part looking like Shannon or Kanon because she cannot change her appearance, disguising does not make sense imaging that she would have to convince everyone who live in the mansion to believe that Shannon and Yasu are in 2 different human bodies. Don't forget she was pretty young when she starts working in the mansion, then do you think a 9 year-old-kid is clever enough to think 10 years ahead of time how she gonna deceive everyone to carry her vengeance (in the real story, I would like to think that she was used by Kyrie to commit those murder before getting fed up with it and run away with Battler or Battler rescues her and then they jump off the cliff to be together in death but Battler survive)
Well, she wasn't nine. By the time she created Shannon and Kanon, she was about seventeen or so ("Shannon", that is, "Sayo", is implied to be her default appearance/name/whatever). Moreover, Yasu doesn't really show any signs of multiple personality disorder, or even "vengeance against the family." She's just ACTING. She's playing pretend and cosplaying, wanting to perform "magic" by convincing people that her characters are real people.
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Old 2011-01-22, 00:42   Link #21632
ngng
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Wow, your reasoning makes sense, but let's just wait until someone Ep8 and give the answers. About hair colors, if speaking strictly in the real world, all Asians have black hair until they dye it, but as you know it the Japanese when creating their story tend to make characters having any hair colors but rarely black as their natural hair color, I use a real life situation to reason Yasu having blond hair as an inheritance gene from her mother.

The reason why my view is different from yours is that I want to look at the situation in a way that there is only one path to the story that is ep8. If you use ep8 as the base, then ep1-7 are half fantasy half reality that explains what if situation, but those situation did not apply to the real Battler who was now Hachijo Toya the novelist. So the magic is a sham.

Beatrice, Kanon and Shannon is Yasu acting as you said, Yasu might look like Shannon, Ronove is another Genji who acts more openly, Gaap is what Yasu blame for her own negligence, Virgilia is Kumasawa the elder whom she respected and loved and was also her wet nurse. 7 stakes sisters are personification of the maids who bully Yasu in the past so she make them her servants in her imagination when she becomes the witch.

Clair takes on the appearance of the ghost and look like the doll in the VIP room set up by Yasu that scare the hell out of Jessica saw in EP7

Even if we say that was Yasu's acting, how come she is allowed to do it and no one found out, what about Jessica, Natsuhi and Krauss, don't they at least check the servant roster before hiring them? or do you think Genji knows but cover for Yasu because he knows she is the true successor? As far as I know Genji give Kanon and Shannon the hint to the solution of the epitaph in Ep7 (assuming that in reality he was talking only to one human Yasu who takes on the appearance of Shannon)

I would also like to think that Yasu outside appearance is Shannon, but that Shannon loves George later on so that is why I like to think the real Yasu looks different from Shannon (even though Shannon is supposed to be the ideal servant in Yasu's mind, the Shannon who appear in ep1 is clumsy like the old Yasu). So Shannon is Yasu's disguise to look different from her original "pitiful self" as she quoted when looking at a mirror.

Please don't take offense because my view is different, I just want to come up as many theories as possible before Ep8 is translated because that is what this thread about. Thanks for making those arguments because there might be a lot of points that I might have missed.

Last edited by ngng; 2011-01-22 at 01:15.
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Old 2011-01-22, 01:28   Link #21633
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Wow, your reasoning makes sense, but let's just wait until someone Ep8 and give the answers. About hair colors, if speaking strictly in the real world, all Asians have black hair until they dye it, but as you know it the Japanese when creating their story tend to make characters having any hair colors but rarely black as their natural hair color, I use a real life situation to reason Yasu having blond hair as an inheritance gene from her mother.
Well, I read EP8, my idea is given a lot of weight. That aside, I've had the idea that none of the characters in Umineko actually look like that, and it's a sort of "The appearances of the characters have been changed to protect the innocent" sort of thing. No one comments on Jessica's blonde hair, for example.

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The reason why my view is different from yours is that I want to look at the situation in a way that there is only one path to the story that is ep8. If you use ep8 as the base, then ep1-7 are half fantasy half reality that explains what if situation, but those situation did not apply to the real Battler who was now Hachijo Toya the novelist. So the magic is a sham.
I'm not really sure what you mean here. Of course the magic is a sham. Did I ever say I believed in magic?

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Beatrice, Kanon and Shannon is Yasu acting as you said, Yasu might look like Shannon, Ronove is another Genji who acts more openly, Gaap is what Yasu blame for her own negligence, Virgilia is Kumasawa the elder whom she respected and loved and was also her wet nurse. 7 stakes sisters are personification of the maids who bully Yasu in the past so she make them her servants in her imagination when she becomes the witch.
I think Ronove and Virgilia are only based on Genji and Kumasawa. The two aren't present when Beatrice and Maria are creating names and backrounds for their characters in EP7, meaning they're just in Beatrice's head.

Quote:

Clair takes on the appearance of the ghost and look like the doll in the VIP room set up by Yasu that scare the hell out of Jessica saw in EP7
I don't think she WAS the doll. The doll seems to be like a sort of idol where offerings are made up to a spirit like in a Japanese shrine, mixing western and eastern spirituality. Shannon probably hid somewhere, turned off the lights, grabbed the doll, and ran out to create the illusion that the doll came to life. It was too small to be a person.

Quote:
Even if we say that was Yasu's acting, how come she is allowed to do it and no one found out, what about Jessica, Natsuhi and Krauss, don't they at least check the servant roster before hiring them? or do you think Genji knows but cover for Yasu because he knows she is the true successor? As far as I know Genji give Kanon and Shannon the hint to the solution of the epitaph in Ep7 (assuming that in reality he was talking only to one human Yasu who takes on the appearance of Shannon)
I'm 100% positive that Genji, Nanjo, and Kumasawa are in on it, since they certainly know she's Beatrice and such. Thus, it'd be easy to create the roster for Kanon and stuff. Natsuhi is insane, Krauss doesn't really pay attention to the servants. Jessica's really the only problem here, and some people have speculated that Jessica knows. Perhaps, the theory goes, she asked Shannon to pretend to be her boyfriend, and thus Kanon was created. Then Jessica fell in love for real, and things got complicated...

I don't believe that, but it's a valid idea, I guess. I simply think that she just didn't pick up on it. Jessica's trusting to a fault and takes things at face value to the point that lots of fans think she's stupid.
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Old 2011-01-22, 02:18   Link #21634
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She asks Shannon to be her boyfriend? I support that idea. I think you just solve another complicated problem. The evidence is Kanon was invited to pretend to be her boyfriend during the cultural festival, but contrary to what has been told, that Kanon has the body of a boy and she was really Shannon in appearance.
Yasu is somewhat at fault for playing with the hearts of her 3 cousin though I don't blame her for that because she was lonely and only those three at almost around her age and they did not treat her like a servant so developing feelings for all 3 of them create a conflict inside her mind. This is just like what happen when you like more than one person, you need to constantly argue inside your head like "Who do I love the most? Who do I want to be with for life?" She could not decide on only one person when Battler come back in 1986 that is why Ep7 explains that she let the epitaph decide their fates for her.
The love for Battler was given to Beatrice the Witch (who takes on the appearance of her mother and grandmother) but in reality Yasu the human ultimately chose Battler (in one ending, Battler was recalling the past events in Ep8 and I think he told Ange that they commit suicide but Yasu died while he lives)

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Old 2011-01-22, 02:24   Link #21635
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But the one she really really loves is Battler
Let's see if I'm not mistaken:

Yasu!Shannon loved Battler first. After Battler left the family, Yasu!Beato was left in charge of feeling the heartbreak while Yasu!Shannon turned to George. Yasu!Kanon also fell for Jessica.

So if I'm not mistaken, Yasu loves all three of them, but Battler's the whole reason behind why he/she loves them.

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Yasu is somewhat at fault for playing with the hearts of her 3 cousin though I don't blame her for that.
Yasu's also their auntcle.
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Old 2011-01-22, 02:51   Link #21636
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Let's see if I'm not mistaken:

Yasu!Shannon loved Battler first. After Battler left the family, Yasu!Beato was left in charge of feeling the heartbreak while Yasu!Shannon turned to George. Yasu!Kanon also fell for Jessica.

So if I'm not mistaken, Yasu loves all three of them, but Battler's the whole reason behind why he/she loves them.
You are right about that. And since the 4 of them are related, no matter whom she chose they won't get a happy ending. Sure she is their cousin but also their aunt at the same time and she was born from the mistake that Kinzo made to his own daughter. We can only reach a happy ending if Battler and Shannon elope to some foreign country before they know the truth which is before 1984 when Yasu solves the epitaph, but the jerk show up too late and force both of them into a corner in 1986. Sometimes I think living without knowing the truth is much easier.
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Old 2011-01-22, 02:54   Link #21637
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Any meat to this whole Ikuko-being-Yasu thing?
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Old 2011-01-22, 03:10   Link #21638
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Any meat to this whole Ikuko-being-Yasu thing?
I doubt it, Yasu and Battler both want to fall off the boat and only Battler survive, if Battler recall his memories and see Ikuko-being-Yasu in front of him (whom you assume to be Ikuko), he would not want to deny his existence and commit suicide again but he did which tell you that Ikuko is not Yasu, unless she survived and got plastic surgery, lol.
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Old 2011-01-22, 03:36   Link #21639
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As I said, I prefer the phrase auntcle. Yes, I combined two words into a single, convenient yet ridiculous one.
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Old 2011-01-22, 03:51   Link #21640
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The True Culprit
 
 
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Location: The Golden Land
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Yea, Ikuko's not Yasu. The idea never really made sense. It was awesome, but Asumu theory was awesomer.
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When the Silent Spirits Cry: An Umineko/Silent Hill crossover fanfiction
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4565173&postcount=531
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