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Old 2011-02-03, 00:50   Link #21921
RockReborn
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But when you rearrange the letters in "A butler did it", you get " i, Battler, did u". Surely this is a contradiction!
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Old 2011-02-03, 00:54   Link #21922
Judoh
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Old 2011-02-03, 00:57   Link #21923
SonozakiUshiromiya
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oh my gawd I shall praise ANGE-sama even more....
But you can have this ingot she had 'found' and had given to me
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Old 2011-02-03, 09:49   Link #21924
neutrino
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
If Kanon is naught else but a concept, how exactly does he die? Does he "die" several times a day, even on normal days? If he can only "die" when permanently erased (at least within the bounds of a single story), what would that mean for a disguise variant? If he's a personality/persona/character-portrayed, is it so simple to say he "died?"
Going by the version where Kanon is a full-fledged personality, on the same level as Beatrice and Shannon despite being created later than either of them, death for him would be total loss of identity. That's actually what multiple personalities consider being assimilated back into the core personality. "60 Minutes" had an interview with the woman who was the RL inspiration for The Three Faces of Eve where she described how some of her personalities even wrote wills when they started fading away. So despite what witchfan(?) was saying, saying "Kanon is dead." isn't a language trick, it's what Beatrice and Shannon consider to be true. As has been pointed out, it's never confirmed that "dead" means clinically dead. Lambdadelta was even trolling when she said that being dead meant you couldn't move anymore (in white).
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Old 2011-02-03, 10:03   Link #21925
neutrino
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Why does Bern keep torturing Ange disproportionately?

Because she deserves it. It wasn't a witch who spoiled Ange's relationship with Eva, it was her own subconscious, personified as the heartless monster that dresses up as a character from Onii-chan's favorite novel. It's the same reason Ange can see and interact with Erika in 1998, and why Bern/Erika keep "taking Ange's side" in a sense.
Can I put you down as a supporter of "the Meta-world is all in Ange's subconscious" theory?

On a more serious note, if Lambdadelta is secretly afraid that none of the people around her are real and everything is a delusion she created to escape the Logic Error, how would she react to a theory that she's someone else's delusion?
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Old 2011-02-03, 11:31   Link #21926
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just found this from my friend on face book

Body Dysmorphic Disorder

Sounds like Yasu to me
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Old 2011-02-03, 12:23   Link #21927
Renall
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Originally Posted by neutrino View Post
Going by the version where Kanon is a full-fledged personality, on the same level as Beatrice and Shannon despite being created later than either of them, death for him would be total loss of identity. That's actually what multiple personalities consider being assimilated back into the core personality. "60 Minutes" had an interview with the woman who was the RL inspiration for The Three Faces of Eve where she described how some of her personalities even wrote wills when they started fading away. So despite what witchfan(?) was saying, saying "Kanon is dead." isn't a language trick, it's what Beatrice and Shannon consider to be true. As has been pointed out, it's never confirmed that "dead" means clinically dead. Lambdadelta was even trolling when she said that being dead meant you couldn't move anymore (in white).
The problem is, we'd be assuming Kanon just coincidentally happened to cease existence as a personality at that exact second. Ignoring for a moment whether Kanon is even a "personality" (as opposed to a fictional character or just a role being played, which in either case would not lead to a personality death), there's no reason for him to do so at that particular moment in time. So Kanon and Battler swap places in a room. So what? No reason Kanon has to cease existing forever, right?
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Old 2011-02-03, 15:32   Link #21928
AuraTwilight
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Quote:
Can I put you down as a supporter of "the Meta-world is all in Ange's subconscious" theory?

On a more serious note, if Lambdadelta is secretly afraid that none of the people around her are real and everything is a delusion she created to escape the Logic Error, how would she react to a theory that she's someone else's delusion?
I don't seriously believe in the Ange Culprit theory; it's just really, REALLY funny; but for the sake of this theory, we can either go with "Ange Subconscious" or "Meta-World is real." Either are fine.

Also it'd be totally fucking hilarious if Lambdadelta learned her true nature. If Bernkastel represents pre-amnesia Ange, though, Lambdadelta would represent Pre-Amnesia, Pre-Murders Ange. Her position was ursurped by Bern, and then she spent all her time trying to bind Bernkastel and Beatrice and Battler. She has a sweetness to her, but she's starting to become bitter. She indulges in evil, but nothing on Bern's level. In the end, she decides to have faith in Battler and Ange, and tries to help give them their happy ending.
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Old 2011-02-07, 00:32   Link #21929
Asunaki
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Hey,I really need help on something. Anybody has a blueprint/map/image of Rokkenjima that shows the Mansion and the Guesthouse form a over the top view with all the rooms?

I'd really need to have that since I'm planning an Umineko game panel at an upcoming con' in Montreal.

Thanks a whole lot!
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Old 2011-02-07, 00:35   Link #21930
AuraTwilight
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I'm pretty sure there's no such thing, unfortunately.
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Old 2011-02-07, 01:15   Link #21931
Asunaki
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
I'm pretty sure there's no such thing, unfortunately.
Hmmm,too bad then. Could I have a list of rooms then?
I'll try to re-watch the anime and draw one myself based on the character's movements.

Thanks.
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Old 2011-02-07, 04:48   Link #21932
AuraTwilight
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We don't have that, either.
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Old 2011-02-08, 16:59   Link #21933
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Obviously Shannon is the culprit :P
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Old 2011-02-11, 08:06   Link #21934
PsychoShion
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Random thoughts alert.......

Since even Bernkastel said that the chance of kyrie and rudulf doing the murders was less than 2 percent in all the katakeras, do u think the reason they seem to be doing the murders is by force?

What if ange was not sick and was kidnapped and the kidnapper made them help them kill everyone on the island might explain why battler would come to help.

Also all the times they try to shot Eva and they just miss maybe because in reality u cant shoot the kidnapper cause u need to find out where she is hidden first. So maybe eva blackmailed kyrie and rudolf to do something they normally wouldnt do.

Maybe in some worlds that would happen, i dont think they'd be the culprits just for the gold.

Also whoever wrote that ange theory that was great it explains Erika , the witches why battle is fighting the witch, if ange actually was there, also her personality is what like eva wanted her to grow up like to be the familiy heir and intelligent and all. erica is like the mirror image of ange even jessica........erica was suppose to be engaged.....ever think maybe george got engaged but ditched her for shannon and the gold ? eva was planning to have him meet someone for a marriage meeting.?????


i'm just thinking about other theories, because like people have said shannon-kanon might explain 1, 2 and the first twilight of 3 for the how , but not the WHY AND WHO FOR ALL THE OTHER QUSESTIONS ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED THAT DAY. I also think the first two were written the first as a mystery everyone dies, the second one rosa and maria get closer at the end showing the writers care for maria,,,,but perhaps hinting that Rosa was the culprit in the fiction, even in the 3rd one i belive that rosa found the gold or was waiting near the entrance of the gold first and knew where it was and waited for eva to show up that way she could remove her, but as the series has shown Eva premempts alot of peoples intent. I think the writer had in mind that rosa began as the culprit in 2 and 3 but eva was able to survive her plan, rosa always seemed a step ahead of everyone plus she had maria... i mean that twilight in arc one with maria singing that was totally rosa telling her to sing. perhaps the writer had rosa pinned as the culprit as she shared her sin LUST, i mean shannon does this whole thing because of the inner duel with it.

You can see how the first game was designed to have the reader (battler) try to figure it out only to be confronted with the witch, it was the readers job to figure out who was truly the host of this party they were invited to (deduce who the writer was). then the second one rosa and maria survive only to finally get close to her mom obviously an attempt to grant marias wish.

You guys ever wonder how Rosa always yelled at maria for anything about a witch, she was the one that met the witch back 20 years ago, maybe that really freaked her out and who knows what happened with kinzo after that since she was the youngest maybe she was treated as beatrice. wasnt there a hint that battler and rosa might have had or could have had a thing ???

Remember that line in arc 2 she says to shannon " 10 years of favors only to be betrayed) i also thought that was something to mean maybe all the servants plans were also made by rosa maybe it wasnt shannon but rosa all along but made it to look like shannon was the culprit,, and with the way bern wants to tear the guys out of beatrice maybe she wanted to really make shannon look bad......

i could keep going but dont want to write up to much stuff
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Old 2011-02-11, 18:48   Link #21935
Judoh
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Originally Posted by PsychoShion View Post
Also all the times they try to shot Eva and they just miss maybe because in reality u cant shoot the kidnapper cause u need to find out where she is hidden first. So maybe eva blackmailed kyrie and rudolf to do something they normally wouldnt do.
Eva has Catbox authority and can't die no matter what. It's a meta reason.

Quote:
Maybe in some worlds that would happen, i dont think they'd be the culprits just for the gold.
The gold is gonna blow up too. So it's not even that.

Quote:
erica is like the mirror image of ange even jessica........erica was suppose to be engaged....
.
Erika had a boyfriend who she thinks cheated on her. She was never stated to be engaged anywhere. Plus She's like 14 or something.

Edit: And before you cite Ep6. That's in the meta world. It's a ritual to become territory lord and screw Battler and Beato over. And Ryukishi only did that because he's walking up mindscrew mountain.

Quote:
eva was planning to have him meet someone for a marriage meeting.?????
I don't think the Marriage meetings work the way you think they do. He did meet with someone several times, but as far as I can tell they're not being forced into an engagement or anything. They still have some free will apparently. And he can't even look at that person in the eye.

Last edited by Judoh; 2011-02-11 at 19:03.
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Old 2011-02-12, 03:30   Link #21936
Bluemail
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PsychoShion View Post
Also whoever wrote that ange theory that was great it explains Erika , the witches why battle is fighting the witch, if ange actually was there, also her personality is what like eva wanted her to grow up like to be the familiy heir and intelligent and all. erica is like the mirror image of ange even jessica........erica was suppose to be engaged.....ever think maybe george got engaged but ditched her for shannon and the gold ? eva was planning to have him meet someone for a marriage meeting.?????
Guess how funny that sounded when I accidentally combined Ange and Erika there. George was engaged to 5-years-old Ange, mm-yep. Twisted, twisted Ushiromiya family.

And I never took note how the gold is gone too in the explosion, so it cannot be for LOLGold that someone caused the explosion to happen (though I never thought that would be the case anyway). Interesting notion, and silly of me.

And thanks for bringing up Rosa-culprit-theory, it's one I'm trying to work out too. At least it works for EP2, but needs to have some servants as accomplices/staying silent. At least Rosa could have created the Beatrice dress, though I'm not sure if anything like that was ever used. Maria doesn't need the person to wear Beatrice's garments to be Beatrice for her. She calls Rosa Bad Witch and Eva Beatrice by their personalities. Battler never met dress-Beatrice on the gameboard, right? It was only suit-Beatrice on the balcony.

Ange theory is also fun, and could be worked upon, though it is ridiculous for her to be actually killing people on the island.
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Old 2011-02-16, 02:53   Link #21937
nweismuller
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New here, and have a major question. After completing Episode 6, I have an interpretation which appears to me to have significant explanatory power, except for one extremely troublesome detail...

Spoiler for Spoilers up to Episode 6:


If anybody has any idea of what I might have missed, I would be very grateful.
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Old 2011-02-16, 03:31   Link #21938
Jan-Poo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nweismuller View Post
New here, and have a major question. After completing Episode 6, I have an interpretation which appears to me to have significant explanatory power, except for one extremely troublesome detail...

Spoiler for Spoilers up to Episode 6:


If anybody has any idea of what I might have missed, I would be very grateful.
The biggest thing that you missed is a forum war that lasted for months between shkanon theorists and shkanon denialists.

Welcome to the former side.

However I'll have to burst your bubble and inform you that even if currently it's the most accepted theory, it's light years far away from being universally considered an "elegant" explanation.

As for the first twilight in the first episode. Again the general consensus is that there is no Shannon body there or that there's just a dummy. Actually this is a theory that was proposed even before Shkanon was taken seriously. The main hint there is that Battler doesn't see that body, and the fact that it was the only one well hidden was suspicious enough.

Of course you'd need to imagine Hideyoshi's cooperation here, unless it was a very well made fake, but in Episode7 Will seems to suggests that there is a plethora of accomplices or liars.

The most common interpretation that explains all those accomplices is the "fake serial murder mystery" theory, which is actually hinted in both EP5 and EP6.
According to this theory a whole deal of persons is involved in a sort of game where people fake their deaths. So the various "accomplices" only play along with the game.

A subset of this theory expands the concept with an "opportunity killer" which kills the persons that faked their death for real after their discovery (like what Erika does in EP6).
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Old 2011-02-16, 04:38   Link #21939
nweismuller
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Hmmm. I'll have to review the evidence more, and see what coherent explanation can come of all I find. Thanks for the response, anyhow.
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Old 2011-02-16, 05:41   Link #21940
Jan-Poo
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I don't know if someone already made this

Anyway I put together the various frames that are shown when Ange reads Eva's diary in EP8. I included also the frames that still appear in the code, and still exist among the graphic files, but that were later removed.

Note that all of these are already bmp you can find in the game, they aren't screenshots I made.

Spoiler for Big file:
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