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Old 2011-02-16, 08:46   Link #21941
rogerpepitone
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While I agree that Ryu is clearly leading towards Shkanontrice, I don't see how it explains all that much.

Take Episode 1:

Hypothesis A: Shkanontrice did it
Hypothesis B: Kanon did it

The first twilight:
A: Shkanon killed the victims (except Shannon) and locked them in the shed. S/he somehow convinced Hideyoshi to lie.
B: Kanon killed all the victims and locked them in the shed.

The second twilight:
A: Shkanon took the wire cutters, cut through the chain, and murdered Eva & Hideyoshi. S/he convinced Genji (possibly also Kumasawa) to lie and say that the chain was still on when they arrived.
B: Kanon took the wire cutters, cut through the chain, and murdered Eva & Hideyoshi. S/he convinced Genji (possibly also Kumasawa) to lie and say that the chain was still on when they arrived.

The fourth twilight:
A,B: Natsuhi and some of the servants had placed Kinzo in the burner the night before or early that morning. (Possibly when Natsuhi was talking with "Kinzo", she threw his body down to Genji in the courtyard.)

The fifth twilight:
A: Shkanon was faking. Nanjo lied.
B: Kanon was faking. Nanjo lied.

The sixth, seventh, and eighth twilights:
A: Shkanon entered the parlor with his/her master key, told Maria to face the wall, and shot G/K/N.
B: Kanon did exactly the same thing.

The ninth twilight:
A: Shkanon shot Natsuhi.
B: Kanon shot Natsuhi.

In short, Shkanon doesn't explain anything better than Kanon, and has a few problems (requires Hideyoshi's assistance in this episodes, and requires forcing the red in some of the other episodes).

Episode 2 can be explained with "Shannon did it" that works at least as well as "Shkanon did it"; "Rosa / Gohda" did it also explains everything nicely. (Gohda is Maria's father. She told Gohda that Krauss was looking for a chef partly out of compassion, and partly to get a spy on Krauss. She removed the key from Maria's envelope a little after midnight. Gohda killed Nanjo and Kumasawa (later than they said), plus Shannon and George, but either George got a good wound in during the fight, or else Gohda tripped and landed on the stake.)
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Old 2011-02-16, 09:24   Link #21942
Renall
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I don't know if someone already made this

Anyway I put together the various frames that are shown when Ange reads Eva's diary in EP8. I included also the frames that still appear in the code, and still exist among the graphic files, but that were later removed.

Note that all of these are already bmp you can find in the game, they aren't screenshots I made.
Neat how the two most suspicious frames were cut. Wonder what the deal is there?
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Old 2011-02-16, 09:48   Link #21943
Jan-Poo
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This is just a speculation but considering how all the scripts of the games so far are plenty of removed lines, and considering that Ryuukishi is obviously not doing the script himself, I can conclude that he basically first writes the story then someone else creates the script out of it and finally Ryuukishi watches the result and decides to cut some parts.

It must also be noted that we can only see what was removed, and probably not all that was removed. We cannot see what was modified or what was added.

In the first place we don't even know why some lines are simply marked in a way that the engine won't read them rather than being removed physically.
They probably do so to check how the chances look in the game, but why once they make the final decisions do not erase the old lines? Laziness?

That being said:

I think there are two explanations for the removal of Kyrie's frame:

1) Ryuukishi didn't want it to be too obvious.
2) Ryuukishi didn't actually want Kyrie to be pointed at as the culprit.

As for George, I have no clue why he's there and between those frames. And that frame with Natsuhi where the Beatrice's portrait is missing just blows my mind.

It looks to be me that the removed frames do not completely match with the final continuity.

It seems to me that in the final version Ryuukishi wanted to show that the murders only happened after the adults returned to the mansion.


In other words even if this whole sequence is completely devoid of any word I think it's heavily implied here that the adults started killing each other after discussing about how to split and manage all that gold.
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Old 2011-02-16, 11:09   Link #21944
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The George thing is really troubling. The location seems to suggest that either George had access to the gold or knew about it before or during the massacre, or that it was similar to the ep7 Tea Party with George being called out to the chapel to be killed. And of course Kyrie brandishing a gun... but both of those frames are cut, so they don't exist in the final work as programmed (and therefore probably shouldn't be considered to mean anything directly).

There are several idiosyncrasies in the sequence unedited. For instance:
  • The insertion of the Natsuhi image with the portrait image following almost suggests the portrait was put up that very morning, which is a truly bizarre detail that I can't adequately explain. Honestly, has that ever even been considered? I'm pretty sure other people had seen that portrait before, right? At least we're told that.
  • The keyring. This image is almost exclusively used to describe the master keys (which are apparently keyrings anyway). Why is this here? Why wasn't it removed? Its placement suggests its significance occurs after the family meeting (presumably the Eva/Rudolf/Hideyoshi frame) and dinner (the lamp), but as far as I know, there's no reason anyone needs a master key or would even be thinking about it at this point in the story.
  • Strange George screen occurs BEFORE what appears to be the epitaph being solved. Why is George out here? Why is he angry?
  • Shannon in what appears to be the underground room. Okay, not that surprising. Interesting that shooting Kyrie is removed though; is this to conform in some way with the implication that Battler and Yasu may have survived the massacres? It'd be hard for Shannon to fake being dead if Kyrie is in a position to shoot her first.
  • That removed shot of the moon is not the Rokkenjima moon shot (that one has the chapel steeple in the corner and a smaller moon). This one is of a cityscape; the particular background is used in Maria's story about being locked out of her house. What's with that?
  • Why the shot of the mansion, then the blood? Is it, like Jan-Poo said, an attempt to frame whatever happened as occurring subsequent to the discovery of the gold?
I still don't like the whole "adults killed each other over money" thing. It's incredibly flimsy, and it ignores basically all of their good traits to suggest they would do it. Even if you say "It's only Kyrie," I'm still not sure I buy it.
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Old 2011-02-16, 11:17   Link #21945
Jan-Poo
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It's not like a like it. It's horrible. But this isn't a matter of liking it or not. Maybe the only truth of Rokkenjima is just that a bunch of idiots killed each other over a bunch of gold.

If that's the truth then I guess that's why it was defined as worthless and I guess that's also why it doesn't really matter who did what.

But I'm really not expecting a great truth so this theory seems quite plausible to me. If there really was a very interesting truth behind this whole incident, if there was a mastermind and an intricate plot then it would have been a worthwhile truth to be told.
The fact that it isn't told and the fact it was defined as worthless and not important, in my opinion, already proves that I shouldn't really expect something narratively satisfying.


Btw...

Am I really the only one here who thinks that Battler escaped alone, and that the Beatrice we see is nothing but Battler's delusion?
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Old 2011-02-16, 11:43   Link #21946
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Am I really the only one here who thinks that Battler escaped alone, and that the Beatrice we see is nothing but Battler's delusion?
It's entirely possible. What little Tohya seems to remember of his own escape, as far as I can tell, he doesn't mention anyone else being involved. He can remember a vague memory like underground tunnels, or a boat, but not that he was with someone? That would be very convenient amnesia.

On the other hand, why would Battler have a Beatrice delusion at all? Battler doesn't know Beatrice that well anyway. Mind, the whole thing could be a metaphor. Then Battler doesn't need to have seen anything.

On the other hand, how did Battler know about the tunnels? Or the boat? If he knew, why didn't Eva know? Eva was apparently able to find her way to Kuwadorian safely, and the only really sensible way to get there is also through the tunnels. No story in which Eva and Battler survive to the end suggests Eva has any reason to know Battler is alive, yet wouldn't they both have had to take similar escape routes?
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Old 2011-02-16, 12:10   Link #21947
Jan-Poo
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As you said Tohya doesn't mentions Beatrice at all when she narrates how he survived, he also says that the boat "probably" turned over while he tried to go to Niijima. He admits that he doesn't remember well what happened.

There is a chance that he "remembers" Beatrice but he himself doesn't know if she was actually there or if that was just an illusion or a corrupted memory.


Of course to explain why Battler can imagine and see Beatrice you'd need to think that he somehow received some input from Shannon. Since we don't know what actually happened on Rokkenjima we can't tell for sure how much Battler was exposed to the illusion of the witch.

Maybe he actually talked to Shannon, maybe he actually met Shannon dressed as Beatrice, maybe he even read the stories that Shannon put in the bottles, or maybe he just made up everything to escape from the reality of the massacre that just happened.

I don't think I'm the only one who noticed the absolute strangeness of that situation. Battler escaped from a catastrophe and all of his relatives were killed. How could he be that relaxed? How could he joke and smile?

I think he had already lost his mind at that point. And in this case I think that's pretty understandable considering the situation.

How he escaped? Again we don't really know what happened, but considering that both him and Eva escaped I guess that it is inevitable to conclude that the fact that the island was going to explode was made known. Probably Shannon herself said it and the good news spread.

This however has other important implications. Because if Battler and Eva escaped leaving their dears behind... then it can only means they were dead already.

There's also to consider the fact that Eva didn't know that Battler survived. Then she either didn't care if he died in the explosion or she thought he was dead already.

Tohya explains how Eva reached the kuwadorian while he chose to go on to the remnant of the submarine base. That means Battler somehow came to know about the existence of those things. Then why he didn't go with her aunt? Or why he chose the other way rather than join her? This could even imply that he feared she would kill him.
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Old 2011-02-16, 12:16   Link #21948
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The missing portrait is really odd... Rather than putting it up that morning, maybe it suddenly disappeared that morning, or something? (Yasu identity crisis part 5386b?)

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Btw...

Am I really the only one here who thinks that Battler escaped alone, and that the Beatrice we see is nothing but Battler's delusion?
That whole scene was pretty strange. Yasu-Beatrice repeatedly blaming herself for meta stuff such as the "hundreds of deaths" she caused and toyed with as a witch, Battler knowing about Bice's and Kinzo's history... either they're both delusional and had lots of time to chat during these two days, or the whole scene was just another love fantasy for "Beatrice died".
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Old 2011-02-16, 12:16   Link #21949
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I don't think I'm the only one who noticed the absolute strangeness of that situation. Battler escaped from a catastrophe and all of his relatives were killed. How could he be that relaxed? How could he joke and smile?
Cuz he did it.
Quote:
This however has other important implications. Because if Battler and Eva escaped leaving their dears behind... then it can only means they were dead already.

There's also to consider the fact that Eva didn't know that Battler survived. Then she either didn't care if he died in the explosion or she thought he was dead already.

Tohya explains how Eva reached the kuwadorian while he chose to go on to the remnant of the submarine base. That means Battler somehow came to know about the existence of those things. Then why he didn't go with her aunt? Or why he chose the other way rather than join her? This could even imply that he feared she would kill him.
Or she feared he would kill her.

Battler did iiiiiiiiiiiiiit.
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Old 2011-02-16, 12:28   Link #21950
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It's entirely possible. What little Tohya seems to remember of his own escape, as far as I can tell, he doesn't mention anyone else being involved. He can remember a vague memory like underground tunnels, or a boat, but not that he was with someone? That would be very convenient amnesia.

On the other hand, why would Battler have a Beatrice delusion at all? Battler doesn't know Beatrice that well anyway. Mind, the whole thing could be a metaphor. Then Battler doesn't need to have seen anything.
Clearly, Beatrice was one of those inflatable dolls that really desperate guys get as sex toys. Shannon made it for him after determining at the age of 12 that he would never get a girlfriend, and made the blow-up doll as a result. Battler loved the doll, but the rest of the family did not approve. So he killed them. Tohya doesn't mention the doll because, well, would you in his shoes? "Oh, I escaped the island with my blow-up waifu, but she got knocked into the ocean and I got brain damage trying to save her."
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Old 2011-02-16, 12:29   Link #21951
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Clearly, Beatrice was one of those inflatable dolls that really desperate guys get as sex toys. Shannon made it for him after determining at the age of 12 that he would never get a girlfriend, and made the blow-up doll as a result. Battler loved the doll, but the rest of the family did not approve. So he killed them. Tohya doesn't mention the doll because, well, would you in his shoes? "Oh, I escaped the island with my blow-up waifu, but she got knocked into the ocean and I got brain damage trying to save her."
I dunno, I could see Tohya telling Ange that. I mean, it's not like he considers himself Battler or anything.
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Old 2011-02-16, 12:32   Link #21952
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I dunno, I could see Tohya telling Ange that. I mean, it's not like he considers himself Battler or anything.
Well, Ange does, and I doubt that's the kind of thing that she wants to hear about the brother she loved so dearly.
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Old 2011-02-16, 12:38   Link #21953
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Am I really the only one here who thinks that Battler escaped alone, and that the Beatrice we see is nothing but Battler's delusion?
No. I was sure of it when I read it, if only because Beatrice feels guilty for toying with hundreds of deaths and then suddenly disappears when Battler inadvertently opens his eyes. I was surprised seeing people claim that it's actually a real Yasu.

As for why would he see such illusion, I think, this scene is just a way to embellish Battler's "personality death". It's a fantasy scene.

How he escaped. If what we saw in ep7 tea party is mostly true, then he could have discovered the secret passage behind the chapel. The tunnels might not be without some turns that lead to different exits.
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Old 2011-02-16, 12:49   Link #21954
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Clearly, Beatrice was one of those inflatable dolls that really desperate guys get as sex toys. Shannon made it for him after determining at the age of 12 that he would never get a girlfriend, and made the blow-up doll as a result. Battler loved the doll, but the rest of the family did not approve. So he killed them. Tohya doesn't mention the doll because, well, would you in his shoes? "Oh, I escaped the island with my blow-up waifu, but she got knocked into the ocean and I got brain damage trying to save her."
But wait... how come the inflatable doll sinked into the ocean?


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No. I was sure of it when I read it, if only because Beatrice feels guilty for toying with hundreds of deaths and then suddenly disappears when Battler inadvertently opens his eyes. I was surprised seeing people claim that it's actually a real Yasu.

As for why would he see such illusion, I think, this scene is just a way to embellish Battler's "personality death". It's a fantasy scene.

How he escaped. If what we saw in ep7 tea party is mostly true, then he could have discovered the secret passage behind the chapel. The tunnels might not be without some turns that lead to different exits.

I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who reached these conclusions. And yes when in the scroll text it is said that Battler follows Beatrice in the depth of the ocean it really symbolizes the death of the Battler's personality. It is also entirely possible that the Battler's amnesia is psychological and not somatic. Maybe he decided to let his old self sink in the Ocean with Beatrice. Maybe the reason he was so scared to become Battler was because as long as he was Tohya he couldn't feel the pain for the loss of his love and his family.

It is also interesting to note that Beatrice says she's a dweller of the world of illusions and that's why she can't go with Battler. I think that's the most apparent proof that she wasn't a real Yasu.
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Old 2011-02-16, 12:51   Link #21955
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But wait... how come the inflatable doll sinked into the ocean?
Same reason Battler lost control and capsized the boat. He was... distracted... and there was a bit of an accident.
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Old 2011-02-16, 12:54   Link #21956
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No I mean... if it was an inflatable doll it was supposed to float!
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Old 2011-02-16, 13:01   Link #21957
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Battler is into some very disturbing things, so maybe he put some weights inside the doll to make it look fatter. That doll also looks like George, which is why George looks fat at certain points of the story but not at others. It also explains George's alibi.

George killed everyone because they thought he was dating Battler due to Battler's doll that resembled him too much, and Shannon even broke up with him because of it.

Geez no wonder Tohya doesn't want to be Battler.
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Old 2011-02-16, 13:09   Link #21958
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No I mean... if it was an inflatable doll it was supposed to float!
It popped.

Look, Battler likes it rough. I mean, see the end of ep2.
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Old 2011-02-16, 13:54   Link #21959
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George sprite sortof makes sense. The George/ Shannon thing is clearly rather important, considering it was one of the only non-adult related things that was in the ep7 tea party. Uh... anyone got any idea why?
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Old 2011-02-16, 14:28   Link #21960
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George sprite sortof makes sense. The George/ Shannon thing is clearly rather important, considering it was one of the only non-adult related things that was in the ep7 tea party. Uh... anyone got any idea why?
Well, the ep7 Tea Party certainly suggests it wasn't entirely lovey-dovey. The notion that George's proposal might not have gone entirely the way he wanted it to go (not that she necessarily refused him). It certainly would help frame a motive for him... but a motive to do what exactly? He's never really been fingered as doing anything.

Bear in mind that particular shot shows George at the area behind/beside the chapel. So that's not the confession scene... or is it?
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