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Old 2011-02-28, 19:02   Link #22061
Judoh
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I didn't expect it.
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Old 2011-02-28, 19:15   Link #22062
Renall
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
What if Battler THINKS that? It could very much be like those Dream Apocalypse stories where an imaginary friend tries to keep a character from waking up and whatnot.
We'll have to go... deeper.

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Old 2011-02-28, 19:17   Link #22063
Jan-Poo
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
But hold the phone. Ange has lived the last twelve years of her life in crippling agony over NOT KNOWING WHAT HAPPENED. Not knowing what happened destroyed her relationship with the one person left to care for her. Not knowing what happened left her defenseless against the torments of her schoolmates. Not knowing what happened left her depressed over her inability to apologize to Maria. Not knowing what happened prevented her from maturing in time to be able to assume responsibilities and avoid being used as a pawn in a game which could very well have killed her (at least, in her mind).
Well said Renall, but here's the irony.
Despite what this story constantly repeated over and over that there's no worth in knowing the truth, what we are actually being shown is that Ange instantly completely changed her attitude towards Battler and his game after she learned the truth (or after she thought she learned the truth).

I mean... one sec she was all "I hate you oniichan" "this game is bullshit" and she was all suicidal and depressed. Then she learns the truth, it is apparently a horrible truth, so she screams she rages she falls in despair. Quite understandable, but hell if that wasn't a most incredibly fast recover!

If you ask me what's the worth in knowing a very sad truth, I'd tell you that the worth in that is that after you cry you can settle with your past and move on. And I'm not expecting that to happen in the arc of a day or even a month. In case someone died, or even in case of broken heart I could even expect one year of despair. But then you can recover, that's the point. If you live in the uncertainty you can never despair and therefore you can never recover. shouldn't Beatrice know that better than anyone else?!

Of course I'm not denying that what saved Ange was Battler's game. But I think it's apparent that

a) Ange was obsessed.
b) Her obsession ended as soon as she learned the truth.

Meaningless? worthless? What the hell are you talking about?!
The meaning of knowing the truth for Ange should be apparent. At least it is for me.


Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
No, he wanted the reader to choose between a "Trick" and "Magic". There is a subtle enough difference.

While the idea is widespread, so is it's opposite, and it's never really conclusively answered. Both viewpoints are sympathetic. And, well, as already said, it seems implied that Ange seemed to have a look at Eva's diary (assuming that wasn't all meta), so she would just be adding her interpretation to the information she got instead of "lol lalala plugging my ears."
I see no difference not even subtle since "trick" is definitely the truth.

Also I don't see any widespread idea declaring the opposite except from Erika's side which isn't the winning side in the end and she's clearly representing a negative position, no matter what you say.
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Old 2011-02-28, 19:33   Link #22064
Renall
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If anything, Battler's view of Ange is that of a 6-year-old kid, not an 18-year-old adult. You could argue he's underestimating her ability to cope, and her resilience in general. She's fairly tough, all things considered, and she's had it pretty rough. Is it really worse to know that, say, her mom was a murderer, than it is for her classmates to suggest she was a murderer and Ange has no basis in fact to confirm or counter their accusations? Knowing her mom is innocent would allow her to fight back; knowing her mom is guilty would allow her to accept it and get over it.

It's the not knowing that leaves her helpless. I don't think Battler would have wanted that.
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Old 2011-02-28, 19:38   Link #22065
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I see no difference not even subtle since "trick" is definitely the truth.

Also I don't see any widespread idea declaring the opposite except from Erika's side which isn't the winning side in the end and she's clearly representing a negative position, no matter what you say.
A trick is used merely for deception. There is no sweetness to it, its cold and ruthless, and more or less hurts its victim.

Magic is delusion, however it is a sweet delusion that does not fail no matter what truth brings about.

At least, that's what I think the difference is.
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Old 2011-02-28, 19:42   Link #22066
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Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester View Post
A trick is used merely for deception. There is no sweetness to it, its cold and ruthless, and more or less hurts its victim.

Magic is delusion, however it is a sweet delusion that does not fail no matter what truth brings about.

At least, that's what I think the difference is.
It's a freaking sleight of hand trick (well, it's not even that); you can appreciate the artistry without buying into the gentle lie.
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Old 2011-02-28, 19:53   Link #22067
Jan-Poo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester View Post
A trick is used merely for deception. There is no sweetness to it, its cold and ruthless, and more or less hurts its victim.

Magic is delusion, however it is a sweet delusion that does not fail no matter what truth brings about.

At least, that's what I think the difference is.
You explained the difference between "trick" and "magic" not between "truth" and "trick" and that's what we were talking about. In this case "trick" is the "truth". So what's the difference?

Also in this case "trick" wasn't even something that bad. It was a sleight of hand, there's absolutely nothing negative about that. In fact "tejina" should be more properly translated as a "sleight of hand trick" and it has absolutely no negative connotation. At least not in the common usage of that word.
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Old 2011-02-28, 20:05   Link #22068
ErenselTheJester
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Oh, I was thinking about the fight between Erika and Maria when I wrote that definition. Seriously, the chick broke down, so I thought "trick" had a negative connotation to it in this case. Sorry.

To be on topic, A trick can also be a lie, can't it? I'm sure there's a difference between someone doing a magic trick and someone tricking you into believing that that magic was real.
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Old 2011-02-28, 20:10   Link #22069
Jan-Poo
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Well yeah I'm not denying that a trick, even sleight of hand, can be seen as a deceit.

But if someone performs a sleight of hand the deceit is from the one who performs it, not from the one who states that it was a sleight of hand.

At the end of EP8 the reader must make a choice in place of Ange. He must either choose between stating that Beatrice's trick was made through magic or a sleight of hand.

What I meant to say is that answering "sleight of hand" equals to stating the truth (and there's no doubt about it). So the choice is between stating the truth or "accepting" magic.


The parallelism with EP6 trick with the cup however is evident. It's a pretty similar trick. The only difference is that in Maria's case there was a kid involved. Ange is 18 years old.
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Old 2011-02-28, 20:19   Link #22070
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Quote:
shouldn't Beatrice know that better than anyone else?!
She died 12 years ago.

Quote:
I see no difference not even subtle since "trick" is definitely the truth.
Human tricks have covered the truth, and magic have revealed it. The same goes both ways. There's more than a "truth/illusion" dichotomy.

Quote:
It's the not knowing that leaves her helpless. I don't think Battler would have wanted that.
I like the idea that struck me earlier that Meta-Battler is still a 12 year old.
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Old 2011-02-28, 20:28   Link #22071
ErenselTheJester
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
What I meant to say is that answering "sleight of hand" equals to stating the truth (and there's no doubt about it). So the choice is between stating the truth or "accepting" magic.


The parallelism with EP6 trick with the cup however is evident. It's a pretty similar trick. The only difference is that in Maria's case there was a kid involved. Ange is 18 years old.


Well, and sorry for being lost up until now, that sort of makes the choice redundant? Any person who wants a clear answer would obvously pick "Trick," so why have that as an option? I assume it some sort of "the truth hurts, and it might be cruel to listen to" type jazz.
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Old 2011-02-28, 20:38   Link #22072
Jan-Poo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester View Post
Well, and sorry for being lost up until now, that sort of makes the choice redundant? Any person who wants a clear answer would obvously pick "Trick," so why have that as an option? I assume it some sort of "the truth hurts, and it might be cruel to listen to" type jazz.
Ryuukishi wanted the reader to choose "magic" in spite of the obvious truth. When you'll play that part you'll be able to realize how Ryuukishi shoved on your face that Beatrice performed a trick. And yet there is no doubt that the "right" answer is "magic".

Quote:
Human tricks have covered the truth, and magic have revealed it. The same goes both ways. There's more than a "truth/illusion" dichotomy.
Huh? What are you talking about?


Quote:
My guess is Kumasawa made it. Totally. It's one of the only ways she can end up being as relevant as she was implied, now. She's not "the original Beatrice", she's CLAIR.
Was that a joke? If you played EP8 you should know that Kumasawa was not the artist.
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Old 2011-02-28, 20:41   Link #22073
Renall
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
I like the idea that struck me earlier that Meta-Battler is still a 12 year old.
It's an interesting thematic analysis. When Ange's 6, Meta-Battler's 12. When Ange's 18, Meta-Battler's still 12.

Though Tohya is 30, so I guess the +/- 6 years thing breaks down eventually.

EDIT: And I been saying "Our" Battler isn't "The" Battler all along! ...didn't expect him to be a crippled amnesiac though. Are there any substantial differences in the way Battler behaves in his ep8 game that would suggest his personality to be more in line with the way he "really" was at 18?
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Old 2011-02-28, 20:46   Link #22074
ErenselTheJester
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Ryuukishi wanted the reader to choose "magic" in spite of the obvious truth. When you'll play that part you'll be able to realize how Ryuukishi shoved on your face that Beatrice performed a trick. And yet there is no doubt that the "right" answer is "magic".
Yet, I already know that.... Thanks, Ryukishi.
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Old 2011-02-28, 20:54   Link #22075
LyricalAura
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In the interests of following up a theory, does anyone remember the very first time Ange was mentioned by name?
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Old 2011-02-28, 20:55   Link #22076
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Well yeah I'm not denying that a trick, even sleight of hand, can be seen as a deceit.

But if someone performs a sleight of hand the deceit is from the one who performs it, not from the one who states that it was a sleight of hand.

At the end of EP8 the reader must make a choice in place of Ange. He must either choose between stating that Beatrice's trick was made through magic or a sleight of hand.

What I meant to say is that answering "sleight of hand" equals to stating the truth (and there's no doubt about it). So the choice is between stating the truth or "accepting" magic.


The parallelism with EP6 trick with the cup however is evident. It's a pretty similar trick. The only difference is that in Maria's case there was a kid involved. Ange is 18 years old.
I've heard that magicians say little kids are harder to fool; the parts of the brain that "fill in the blanks" are still developing.


Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
In the interests of following up a theory, does anyone remember the very first time Ange was mentioned by name?
Episode 1 at the airport
Eva: "Ah, by the way, how's your little Ange-chan doing?`@` I heard she was vomiting?"`@"
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Old 2011-02-28, 21:03   Link #22077
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by rogerpepitone View Post
Episode 1 at the airport
Eva: "Ah, by the way, how's your little Ange-chan doing?`@` I heard she was vomiting?"`@"
Meh, I guess it doesn't work then. I was going to propose that Ange was actually first invented in EP3 by Bern and Lambda and then retconned into Battler's history.
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Old 2011-02-28, 21:04   Link #22078
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She certainly isn't mentioned much, though.
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Old 2011-02-28, 21:13   Link #22079
LyricalAura
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It's just, there's a pile of little things that would point in that direction.
  • George saying "now all the cousins are gathered again" in EP1 even though Ange is absent
  • Ange being missing from Yasu's stories
  • Total absence of Ange information until Hachijou's forgeries, when Bern claims to have "found" her
  • Bern preventing Maria from talking about Mariage Sorciere in EP7
  • Jessica being confused about Ange's seat location in EP7
  • The persistent failure of Ange's fragments to actually be real
  • Ange being associated with Erika and becoming a Witch of Truth in EP8
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Old 2011-02-28, 21:13   Link #22080
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The only mentions I know of are two, one is from the EP1 airport the other is an indirect mentions from EP2 when Kyrie says to Rosa (or the other way around) that they are both mothers of a young girl.

Of course there are mentions on later episodes but those weren't written by Beatrice.
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