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Old 2011-03-03, 21:53   Link #22161
AuraTwilight
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Well, Kanon is fundamentally Shannon's "brother," so...
They're only treated like siblings; according to their fictional backstory, they're not actually related.

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Considering the audience that Umineko is for, a name like Yasu screams 'culprit meme' so badly that I'd think that Yasu/Yasuda is kind of a red-herring name.

It seems like people on the English side aren't aware of this meme as much and so a name like Yasu seems 'legit.' I'd rate it on the same level as if Bernkastel named her 'Evil Culprit.' 8)
The word "Yasu" basically translates to "Trash", which is why the other servants were calling her that, and why Bernkastel brings it up. "Beatrice isn't even furniture; she's literally garbage!"
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Old 2011-03-03, 22:14   Link #22162
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
The word "Yasu" basically translates to "Trash", which is why the other servants were calling her that, and why Bernkastel brings it up. "Beatrice isn't even furniture; she's literally garbage!"
Really? How does it translate to 'trash' exactly? Or is it a word play on 安 (i.e. 'cheap') ?


Anyways, I don't think it's a good idea to speculate if the name really was Yasuda or Yasu as it seems like some kind of obvious troll. At the very least it's no coincidence or accident that Ryukishi chose that name. Although there's no reason why he *couldn't* just use it...

Anyways, it's been mentioned before, but just in case:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portopi...Satsujin_Jiken <-- The meme comes from this game in which the culprit is the Yasuhiko (nicknamed Yasu) character.
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Old 2011-03-03, 22:33   Link #22163
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The thing is, it was basically Yasu herself narrating this; it's not really comparable to Bern's trolling in the Tea Party.
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Old 2011-03-03, 22:54   Link #22164
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Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
Anyways, I don't think it's a good idea to speculate if the name really was Yasuda or Yasu as it seems like some kind of obvious troll. At the very least it's no coincidence or accident that Ryukishi chose that name. Although there's no reason why he *couldn't* just use it...
How's it speculation? She said it's a nickname that comes from her last name Yasuda. So it's both?

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It seems like people on the English side aren't aware of this meme as much and so a name like Yasu seems 'legit.'
How do you figure that? I knew about it. I learned it from kj1980 I admit, but I've talked with people who said "you didn't know that?" When I asked if they knew.
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Old 2011-03-04, 01:26   Link #22165
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How's it speculation? She said it's a nickname that comes from her last name Yasuda. So it's both?
Oh, immblueversion was speculating whether it was Shannon/Sayo's that had a last name of Yasuda. As opposed to the (supposedly) separate person that we were shown in EP7.

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How do you figure that? I knew about it. I learned it from kj1980 I admit, but I've talked with people who said "you didn't know that?" When I asked if they knew.
I guess people here at the least would skew more heavily towards knowing. But I thought it was an idea that the reader was supposed to be aware of when they went through the episode. Similar to Jessica cosplaying as Marisa (and thus it not being a real clue about Jessica dressing up as a witch).

Did you guys learn about it after reading EP7 or before? I'm curious because knowing the meme while I was reading it colored how I approached the whole EP7. Continued below:

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
The thing is, it was basically Yasu herself narrating this; it's not really comparable to Bern's trolling in the Tea Party.
So, I've always had this suspicion that Bernkastel, who became some kind of controller or generator for the story of EP7 was able to figure out a substantial amount of the back story to Umineko but didn't have all the facts. My suspicion is that she then filled in parts of it with things that she needed but wasn't going to change the story.

Case in point, the name of Yasu, was, I thought her way of saying, "I don't really know what the name of the girl is; let's just call her Yasu of 'Hanin ha Yasu' fame."


I thought her control of Claire, forcing the pieces on the game board to talk and even the scene of Will and Lion as pieces she could manipulate at the end showed us that almost the entirety of EP7 was made up by her. Mostly with outside-researched facts from Rokkenjima Prime and whatever else was needed to fill it into a smooth narrative possibly imagined up.

The red guts scene, I thought was because of this. Perhaps the red guts scenes were alternate theories, or facts she (and by extension people on Rokkenjima Prime) dug up and could be interpreted in multiple ways. The happy way or the awful way.

In addition, that's why I thought we never get a sprite for 'Yasu.' To me, both the name and the lack of a sprite makes me think of this character as one big shadow with a '?' on it. Someone we can detect was there, but her details and information are hidden in the shadows behind Shannon, Kanon, Beatrice and whoever else.

It's almost as if she should be named 'Anonymous' or 'Unknown', except the meme about Yasu is that she's supposed to be the Hanin. So, I thought she's supposed to be the 'Convenient Culprit' that Bernkastel shoves at us. And this lines up with what we thought about Beatrice; that she didn't have an active hand in murder but that she was some kind of excuse to blame the tragedy on. (And that's what EP7 showed that we all kinda rejected; that she and she alone had planned all the murder, set the bomb, etc.)

Last edited by Kylon99; 2011-03-04 at 01:41.
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Old 2011-03-04, 01:57   Link #22166
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So, I've always had this suspicion that Bernkastel, who became some kind of controller or generator for the story of EP7 was able to figure out a substantial amount of the back story to Umineko but didn't have all the facts. My suspicion is that she then filled in parts of it with things that she needed but wasn't going to change the story.

Case in point, the name of Yasu, was, I thought her way of saying, "I don't really know what the name of the girl is; let's just call her Yasu of 'Hanin ha Yasu' fame."
Clair's right there. She's reading off her own memories. Bern doesn't really know shit in the sense you seem to be implying.

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I thought her control of Claire, forcing the pieces on the game board to talk and even the scene of Will and Lion as pieces she could manipulate at the end showed us that almost the entirety of EP7 was made up by her. Mostly with outside-researched facts from Rokkenjima Prime and whatever else was needed to fill it into a smooth narrative possibly imagined up.
That would mean she was making Will waste his time uncovering information she not only already knew, but pretty much pulled out of her own ass; I don't buy it, if Clair did not in some aspect represent Yasu's actual personality, she would not go to such an extent to tear her apart and "make sure she sees that she can't be happy in any world."

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In addition, that's why I thought we never get a sprite for 'Yasu.' To me, both the name and the lack of a sprite makes me think of this character as one big shadow with a '?' on it. Someone we can detect was there, but her details and information are hidden in the shadows behind Shannon, Kanon, Beatrice and whoever else.
It's because Clair is narrating, and she hates her normal, true self and doesn't want it to be seen. The mere THREAT of showing her form was used by Lambdadelta to get fearful, strict obedience out of Beatrice, and it's why mirrors hurt her.
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Old 2011-03-04, 02:35   Link #22167
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
That would mean she was making Will waste his time uncovering information she not only already knew, but pretty much pulled out of her own ass; I don't buy it, if Clair did not in some aspect represent Yasu's actual personality, she would not go to such an extent to tear her apart and "make sure she sees that she can't be happy in any world."
Oh, I mean the Bernkastel that's shown at the end, rather than the Bernkastel that interacts with Will directly. The Bernkastel that's together with Featherine at the end appears to be in control of the board where Will and Lion are pieces. This happens immediately after Lion proclaims that he'll keep struggling or something and then it cuts to Bernkastel removing the Will and Lion pieces from the board, asking Featherine if it was ok to end the story like that.

This over-arching Bernkastel is who I assume to represent someone or some people who've done outside research into the background. She seems to have cast herself as a villain in her own story... 8) But at the very least, if she's the one moving the pieces around on the board then she must be the ones making Will, Claire, Lion and whoever else do as she commands. She has to know something, I would think.


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It's because Clair is narrating, and she hates her normal, true self and doesn't want it to be seen. The mere THREAT of showing her form was used by Lambdadelta to get fearful, strict obedience out of Beatrice, and it's why mirrors hurt her.
Hmm... good thing you mentioned this. This means that the original 'Yasu' had the desire to and probably carried out hiding her information from outsiders.


But yah, down on Claire and Will's level, it is a story that Clair narrates. However I wonder how much of it has been manipulated or which parts were 'filled' in thanks to the real 'Yasu' hiding herself... As for Will, I would assume that ... Uber-Bernkastel... *cough* was using him to drive the plot forward.

On the whole, I didn't really like having yet another 'layer' that seemed to look down on EP7. Now there seemed to be two Bernkastels... one who's clearly a villain and another that seems to just be interested in the story. But, there it is...
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Old 2011-03-04, 02:55   Link #22168
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Oh, I mean the Bernkastel that's shown at the end, rather than the Bernkastel that interacts with Will directly. The Bernkastel that's together with Featherine at the end appears to be in control of the board where Will and Lion are pieces. This happens immediately after Lion proclaims that he'll keep struggling or something and then it cuts to Bernkastel removing the Will and Lion pieces from the board, asking Featherine if it was ok to end the story like that.

This over-arching Bernkastel is who I assume to represent someone or some people who've done outside research into the background. She seems to have cast herself as a villain in her own story... 8) But at the very least, if she's the one moving the pieces around on the board then she must be the ones making Will, Claire, Lion and whoever else do as she commands. She has to know something, I would think.
Does she? The fact that she commands Clair does not mean that she knows what she does, and she certainly doesn't know everything Clair does. Bern is herself part of the narrative, and it's pretty much turtles all the way in both directions. Frankly, how would Bern-As-Outsider even go about finding out this information? Everyone is fucking dead; it'd be impossible to dig up Yasu's personal life details, since she's effectively off the grid.

She can find out that someone named Sayo Yasuda worked as a servant on Rokkenjima. That's it. Without literally using magic, or calling up Clair's soul to give testimony, Bern would have to make everything else up herself; and doing so not only means everything we went through was a big waste of time that tells us absolutely nothing in an episode that was meant to give answers, but it's also incredibly against Bern's character; she would not have dedicated THIS MUCH TIME to love, emotions, feelings, magical metaphors, and sympathy-building character development if she had any hand whatsoever in the storytelling process.

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Hmm... good thing you mentioned this. This means that the original 'Yasu' had the desire to and probably carried out hiding her information from outsiders.


But yah, down on Claire and Will's level, it is a story that Clair narrates. However I wonder how much of it has been manipulated or which parts were 'filled' in thanks to the real 'Yasu' hiding herself... As for Will, I would assume that ... Uber-Bernkastel... *cough* was using him to drive the plot forward.

On the whole, I didn't really like having yet another 'layer' that seemed to look down on EP7. Now there seemed to be two Bernkastels... one who's clearly a villain and another that seems to just be interested in the story. But, there it is...
I think you're really overanalyzing things here; this phenomena isn't new. Witches don't so much move up and down the layers or anything so much as exist on all the relevant layers at once. Just like how Chick Beatrice of EP6 existed on the Gameboard, in the Meta-World, and in Featherine's study at the same time, but they all had the same memories, personality, capabilities, and drives.

This isn't Bern expanding her character into a humanoid storyteller; this is just the same Bern we've always known being a Gamemaster just like Beatrice, Lambdadelta, and Battler have. This is not an additional layer.
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Old 2011-03-04, 07:58   Link #22169
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In arc 4 we're also told the Sumadera are using the cops to get Ange and do... not pretty stuff to her.
To clarify, I don't think EP4 implied that the cops were bribed by the Sumadera. The Sumadera simply asked the police to do their job: that is finding a minor on the run and bring her back at home.


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Considering the audience that Umineko is for, a name like Yasu screams 'culprit meme' so badly that I'd think that Yasu/Yasuda is kind of a red-herring name.

It seems like people on the English side aren't aware of this meme as much and so a name like Yasu seems 'legit.' I'd rate it on the same level as if Bernkastel named her 'Evil Culprit.' 8)
I think pretty much everyone knows about the Yasu meme here. News spread fast. But that's the first time I see someone reaching the same conclusion that you reached.

So far the most common interpretation was: She is the obvious culprit and Ryuukishi named her "Yasu" as a joke. After all the culprit is always Yasu.

I personally buy this interpretation, he needed to decide how to call her, and he chose "Yasu", I don't see it as a red herring. Red herrings aren't likely to exist in an episode that was meant to explain Beatrice's background.
That being said, Yasu is just the culprit of the various Beatrice's games, it doesn't need to be the culprit of Rokkenjima Prime. Anyway Will seems pretty certain that she's the culprit.


About Clair. Maybe you can have some doubts about the Clair in the meta theater, but the Clair in the chapel is definitely "the culprit of Beatrice's murder". Nobody even called her Clair or Yasu. The Clair's look was given to this culprit because "Bern hates people that can't reason".
Even so, this culprit later talks in first person about something that Shannon did... so yeah it's pretty damn obvious. This culprit also seems to subscribe to anything that the Clair in the meta theater said...

Anyway this culprit with Clair's look is the one that Will later "kills". It is obvious to me that it's Yasu, but whatever...


Quoting something that Chrono reported in another thread:

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He also made a point of mentioning how surprised he was to see Lambdadelta so high in the polls.
I'm not surprised at all. Basically Lambda sacrificed herself for the sake of the main characters begging the audience to vote her in the poll as a compensation for that. As soon as I saw that, I knew that a lot of person would vote for her.
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Old 2011-03-04, 09:51   Link #22170
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Apparently he underestimated Lambda's bro potential. Or else all that stuff about Lambda doing things behind the curtain for the entirety of Chiru was purely accidental and he didn't intend her to be as awesome as The Genius Battler Conspiracy claims she is.
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Old 2011-03-04, 11:30   Link #22171
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On the subject of Yasu and her name, has anyone seen those extra bits that came with the Anime's box set? In one of them, they actually say 'the culprit is Yasu". Kind of ironic that an extra, short bit of humor would name the culprit several months before Ep.7 came out...and yes, I am aware of the meme, but still...

The extra is here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsrInYNn1Ow
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Old 2011-03-04, 14:19   Link #22172
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Remember guys, Ryukishi is the guy who tried to make us root for the bad guy on multiple occasions. I bet he was like "Woah, wait, self-sacrificing heroes get votes? The fuck? I'm gonna have to look into this in When They Cry 5..."
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Old 2011-03-04, 15:03   Link #22173
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Remember guys, Ryukishi is the guy who tried to make us root for the bad guy on multiple occasions. I bet he was like "Woah, wait, self-sacrificing heroes get votes? The fuck? I'm gonna have to look into this in When They Cry 5..."
If that was really his goal he'd have made a GTA game rather then Umineko.
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Old 2011-03-04, 16:03   Link #22174
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I'm not saying it's his goal, but it IS something he does. He makes an effort to make all of his characters sympathetic unless they're bit parts with no real personality.

Takano Miyo
Erika Furudo
Kasumi Sumadera
Yasu-as-culprit

It's sort of a running theme, and Ange pretty much dedicates a monologue to it in EP4 when she talks about white magic.
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Old 2011-03-04, 18:04   Link #22175
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Hi, I've finished EP8 and I have some points I'd like to check.

I'm assuming that EP1-2 are written by Yasu and EP3-6 by Touja/Battler-Tohya.

If EP1-2 were written before the murders took place, then... how could Yasu know (in her stories) that there will be real murders? I mean, she just wanted to make Battler remember and understand her with that fake murder game. Why her stories don't show just that?

And... is there a general agreement about the murderer in EP1-4? I suppose that Yasu is not the culprit because she has no motive at all (and Battler forgives her and apologizes at the end of EP5). Were the siblings still faking their deaths when the rest found them at the chapel? If so, how can they fake their guts being pulled out?

And regarding EP8, the Tea Party was a metaphor of Battler's personality death, wasn't it? My japanese sucks, you know.

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Old 2011-03-04, 18:14   Link #22176
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One of the running theories is that in her stories, she made herself a real murderer as a conservation of details, but then in real life, she was doing her murder game, but then someone took advantage of the opportunity to kill for real. Only the First Twilight is faked at best, before the killer then goes behind Yasu and "finishes the job."

And yes, the Tea Party is as you say. Battler "died" that day through memory loss, and his personality changed as a result, making him a different person. Depending on how you wish to interpret the ending, either Toya dies and goes to the afterlife with restored memory, or my personal favorite, the Battler and Toya personalities divide, with Battler going to the Golden Land.
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Old 2011-03-04, 19:22   Link #22177
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The "everything was fiction" angle bothers me, from Meta-Batter perspective the stories and the killings are real.

I mean, he really saw his sister getting burgered etc. Even if they are just stories, Meta- Battler is a character inside those stories.
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Old 2011-03-04, 20:21   Link #22178
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
I'm not saying it's his goal, but it IS something he does. He makes an effort to make all of his characters sympathetic unless they're bit parts with no real personality.

Takano Miyo
Erika Furudo
Kasumi Sumadera
Yasu-as-culprit

It's sort of a running theme, and Ange pretty much dedicates a monologue to it in EP4 when she talks about white magic.
Feeling sympathy for any characters, villains or heroics, isn't that special of a story I believe. However what you said is that Ryuukishi wants us to "root" for them. That's what I disagree with. I don't think Ryuukishi wants us to encourage their "bad" behavior.

There's a difference between feeling sympathy for the insane things Takano had to endure and encouraging her to carry on and succeed in her unethical plans.

There has never been to me anything that pushes me to believe Ryuukishi would ever want us to root for murderers. In fact Minagoroshi's whole point was to tell us that it will never really solve anything.
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Old 2011-03-04, 21:24   Link #22179
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Feeling sympathy for any characters, villains or heroics, isn't that special of a story I believe. However what you said is that Ryuukishi wants us to "root" for them. That's what I disagree with. I don't think Ryuukishi wants us to encourage their "bad" behavior.
Poor word choice on my part (English isn't my best language); the idea I was trying to express is that he wants us to want the villainous characters to find happiness of their own, even if we think their actions are horrible.
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Old 2011-03-05, 01:33   Link #22180
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Random post is random.

Not to get off topic, but I opened EP1 to take a gander at the order the chacters appear in, and, you know how, upon rereading, you find an utterly ridiculous amount of the dialogue foreshadows something, be it intentional or no?

I stopped (randomly) on Battler saying, upon meeting George at the airport : "Heheh, don't scare me like that, you just shaved 3 years off my life.

...coincidence? Well ... probably. Maybe?
...probably. But still.
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