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Old 2011-03-06, 01:52   Link #22201
Renall
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Then you weren't paying attention to what I was actually saying, because the point is not whether there is "one truth," but whether truths which may exist are relevant under a particular set of circumstances.

The fact that I could be a doctor, be it in a story or in an alternate dimension or whatever, does not mean the me that is thinking about this sentence right now is or ever will be a doctor. That knowledge - those "false" truths - can perhaps inform my decisions moving forward, but it does not mean there is any point in questioning the physicality or essentiality of those truths. They are abstract thoughts, as far as I am concerned, whether or not they really exist in some fashion.

I think this is part of what Ange's breakdown is leading her to in ep8, but that doesn't change that for the Ange that exists in that particular world, those truths may as well be fiction, magic, or alternate dimensions, because they are all equally capable of influencing that particular Ange.
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Old 2011-03-06, 01:56   Link #22202
Keriaku
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Then you weren't paying attention to what I was actually saying, because the point is not whether there is "one truth," but whether truths which may exist are relevant under a particular set of circumstances.

The fact that I could be a doctor, be it in a story or in an alternate dimension or whatever, does not mean the me that is thinking about this sentence right now is or ever will be a doctor. That knowledge - those "false" truths - can perhaps inform my decisions moving forward, but it does not mean there is any point in questioning the physicality or essentiality of those truths. They are abstract thoughts, as far as I am concerned, whether or not they really exist in some fashion.

I think this is part of what Ange's breakdown is leading her to in ep8, but that doesn't change that for the Ange that exists in that particular world, those truths may as well be fiction, magic, or alternate dimensions, because they are all equally capable of influencing that particular Ange.
I apologize, the main point I had contention with is that it seemed like you were saying it had no meaning for people in the real world, and that is what I disagreed with. If that is not what you were saying, then I take back what I said.
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Old 2011-03-06, 01:58   Link #22203
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It has meaning for people, but entirely internalized; it means as much as the individual wants it to mean. That said, it means no more than what the individual wants it to mean, whether or not it is actually true.

If Ange believes Sakutarou and Maria are talking to her, it doesn't matter if she's thinking about it metaphorically, she's delusional, or she's actually talking to magical creatures. However, what she believes she's doing will influence how she behaves. But the actual "truth" of it won't change her world; only she can do that. Similar to the Stakes saying they can't do anything Ange herself isn't willing to do.
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Old 2011-03-06, 02:05   Link #22204
Keriaku
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It has meaning for people, but entirely internalized; it means as much as the individual wants it to mean. That said, it means no more than what the individual wants it to mean, whether or not it is actually true.

If Ange believes Sakutarou and Maria are talking to her, it doesn't matter if she's thinking about it metaphorically, she's delusional, or she's actually talking to magical creatures. However, what she believes she's doing will influence how she behaves. But the actual "truth" of it won't change her world; only she can do that. Similar to the Stakes saying they can't do anything Ange herself isn't willing to do.
This I completely agree with.

To take this idea a little farther, I see this whole situation as Ryuukishi trying to support a kind of truth-surpassing empathy. It doesn't really matter what the 'real truth' is, as long as you can align your perception of the situation with someone else to understand them. He also shows how delicate this is, and how easy it is to assert your own judgments (such as Maria simply being delusional) when it can go a long way if you can surpass that.
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Old 2011-03-06, 02:15   Link #22205
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At the same time, the mere fact that the ability to be empathic and approach the understanding of another through their own worldview does not, in and of itself, add anything to the world. It is also more inherently appealing to relativists - a group I sense is the majority here, though I wonder how many are self-reflective about it - and unappealing to people who believe in first principles or moral absolutes.

Having said that, it would be unwise to believe an empiricst can't understand, say, Maria's position; it is possible to draw conclusions based on reasoning things by stepping into Maria's own position and rationally concluding based on her principles. However, they would be qualified by the understanding that her principles are flawed and do not necessarily follow from the physical world. A relativist would not necessarily disagree with this (unless disregarding reality entirely); however, they could argue that Maria's set of observations about the universe are not necessarily any less valid than positions which claim to have a basis in "real" things (as observations can be inherently flawed).

But that's getting a little too heady for a fiction-within-a-fiction and a somewhat halfassed and bungled moral.
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Old 2011-03-06, 11:09   Link #22206
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Keriaku I understand your point but I think there isn't really any proof nor any clear evidence to support either claim.

Ryuukishi willingly made the existence of metaworld fuzzy and ambiguous enough to leave the reader in doubt whether it really exists or not.

So your interpretation is legit, but I personally do not subscribe to it, because I think that the instances where you can interpret reality affecting the metaworld are a lot more than the instances where you can see the metaworld affecting the reality.

In other words everything in my opinion seems to suggest that the real world has an absolute dominance over the metaworld, insofar that any person could simply erase it completely simply by negating it.
I don't think the reverse can be said.

On the other side the instances where the metaworld seem to influence the real world can be easily interpreted as ideas influencing people's behavior.

The fact that ideas can spread and influence the world is a factual and historical truth of our reality, there's nothing strange with that.

So this discourse will inevitably reach the philosophical dilemma of whether ideas exist or not. There is an entire philosophical current that supports the idealism perspective, from Plato onwards.

I don't agree with that view, but discussing about it probably strays from the purpose of this forum
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Old 2011-03-06, 12:23   Link #22207
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That's respectable, Jan-Poo, and really as long as we both appreciate each other's point of view, that's the best end result. I'm not trying to convert anybody, I just want to discuss all these other aspects of the series that I find the most interesting but I rarely ever see discussed.

I almost want to take Ryuukishi's ideas farthur and suggest the kind of malleable personal realities that are shown through Yasu and Maria as a kind of evolution of consciousness. This is why I almost find it offensive when I see Yasu rgarded as a delusional lunatic by a solid representation of the fanbase. I just feel like there lots of meaning to be found with only a slight change of perspective on the series.
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Old 2011-03-06, 12:46   Link #22208
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Well, let's be fair now: The side that holds for "delusional lunatic" does sort of have the weight of physical evidence on their side. It may not be tactful or kind, but on philosophical and social balance they do hold the advantage. Rebelling against that may be noble, but it doesn't change what is.
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Old 2011-03-06, 14:21   Link #22209
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I also seriously doubt that Maria's delusions would've lasted as she grew up, unless akin to Yasu she remains in a ridiculously sheltered life. The question arcs made many references to this scenario.

Even Yasu, should she have been "rescued" by Battler and he'd have showed her more of the world, probably would've lost her delusions. Should she not have been able to trick Maria with the silly sleight of hand, her own delusions might have been crushed by another's.

For Ange, she's aware from the start that they are but delusions, she first realized this as a kid, before the Rokkenjima events. She and Kinzo (and even so) are the only cases where their delusions has a long chance of surviving since they basically aknowledge the relation between them and reality. I can imagine plenty of scenarios where this would actually not be a bad thing, but neither Kinzo's case nor Ange's cases are very convincing to me as being healthy.
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Old 2011-03-06, 14:48   Link #22210
~Ayane~
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Originally Posted by FirstTwilight View Post
Out of curiosity, what's the general opinion toward kakeras? Do they exist?

Personally, i still believe in them even after ep. VIII.
i believe "kakeras" exist in reality, so..
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Old 2011-03-06, 14:57   Link #22211
Keriaku
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I also seriously doubt that Maria's delusions would've lasted as she grew up, unless akin to Yasu she remains in a ridiculously sheltered life. The question arcs made many references to this scenario.

Even Yasu, should she have been "rescued" by Battler and he'd have showed her more of the world, probably would've lost her delusions. Should she not have been able to trick Maria with the silly sleight of hand, her own delusions might have been crushed by another's.

For Ange, she's aware from the start that they are but delusions, she first realized this as a kid, before the Rokkenjima events. She and Kinzo (and even so) are the only cases where their delusions has a long chance of surviving since they basically aknowledge the relation between them and reality. I can imagine plenty of scenarios where this would actually not be a bad thing, but neither Kinzo's case nor Ange's cases are very convincing to me as being healthy.
I disagree with this. It seems to me that Ryuukisihi is suggesting that what children do it more than just make things up, with the power of the mind and imagination, they literally create things. Just because society is set up so that children eventually are taught that this isn't 'real', I don't believe can be used as an argument against what he's saying. People are molded by society and culture.

Another philosophical concept Ryuukishi seems to be pushing is that belief is enough to create things. Just look at how he full on shows Kinzo, Shannon and Kanon to be romping around Rokkenjima without a second thought. You might 'objectively' (it's debateable whether anything is actually objective though) be able to say they're not there, but Ryuukishi leaves them there as equally as he does any other 'real' character.
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Old 2011-03-06, 15:30   Link #22212
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I disagree with this. It seems to me that Ryuukisihi is suggesting that what children do it more than just make things up, with the power of the mind and imagination, they literally create things. Just because society is set up so that children eventually are taught that this isn't 'real', I don't believe can be used as an argument against what he's saying. People are molded by society and culture.

Another philosophical concept Ryuukishi seems to be pushing is that belief is enough to create things. Just look at how he full on shows Kinzo, Shannon and Kanon to be romping around Rokkenjima without a second thought. You might 'objectively' (it's debateable whether anything is actually objective though) be able to say they're not there, but Ryuukishi leaves them there as equally as he does any other 'real' character.
There is the problem that what you "create" through this method can only be seen by someone who believes that it exists.

Kinzo, Shannon and Kanon... they are definitely NOT like every other characters. Shannon and Kanon can never appear both at the same time in front of Battler, Kinzo can never appear in front of Battler at all (let's forget about chiru which would complicate the discussion).

Reality exists whether you believe it does or not, the things that all that magic create are indistinguishable from illusions. Their postulated nature itself make them impossible to prove. And just like illusions they can vanish or appear in and from thin air.

You can say they are real but that's only slightly above a mere semantic issue, there's absolutely no difference in practical terms.


Anyway I think that the healthiest approach to "magic" that was shown in Umineko was Ange's in EP4 in 1998. There she's able to fantasize about magical being while maintaining a clear discernment of what's real and what's not.

Maria's case is the worst of all. Denying reality is bad by itself, denying your true feelings is a hundredfolds worse.
Maria simply can't accept her own sadness, she refuses the idea that she's pitiable even if her condition definitely is, but even if she covers it with happy thoughts she can't erase those feelings, human psychology just doesn't work that way.

Denying or repressing your true feelings is a sure ticket to insanity land... no wonder...
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Old 2011-03-06, 15:41   Link #22213
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Originally Posted by Keriaku View Post
I disagree with this. It seems to me that Ryuukisihi is suggesting that what children do it more than just make things up, with the power of the mind and imagination, they literally create things. Just because society is set up so that children eventually are taught that this isn't 'real', I don't believe can be used as an argument against what he's saying. People are molded by society and culture.

Another philosophical concept Ryuukishi seems to be pushing is that belief is enough to create things. Just look at how he full on shows Kinzo, Shannon and Kanon to be romping around Rokkenjima without a second thought. You might 'objectively' (it's debateable whether anything is actually objective though) be able to say they're not there, but Ryuukishi leaves them there as equally as he does any other 'real' character.
He stressed out how at least two people are needed to create a world over and over. Maria/Beato3, Beato3/Battler, Toya/Hachijou. George, in arc 1, mentioned how Maria's delusions isn't anything special per say, it's only special because her's are different then others. I'm just going with what the novels says. In practice it means that the "most unique" your delusions are (such as Beato's or Maria's), the fewer chances you'll have to share them with anyone else. That can lead to the end of your delusions (see Beato after Ange removed Maria in arc 4) and later on their death (see arc 5).

That Battler managed to make all that turn around for Beato doesn't change that he very well could never have done so, and the delusion of Beatrice would've died completely.

I think the myriad of cats attacking Will and Lion in arc 7 Ura shows that delusions have a very low chance of survival when faced under many observers. Sure Ryuukishi is actually telling us not to give up, but that doesn't make it any more likely that they do survive.

Even on a simpler level, arc 7 also showed us that no matter how much Kinzo deluded himself into believing Beato 2 was Beato 1 reincarnated, the reality of it always ended up catching up to him. After all no matter what he tries, he cannot ever make her remember her mother's life. That's the power of reality hitting you in the face, the most likely outcome of encouraging yourself to believe in delusions (again see Ange in arc 4 with the stakes at school). In that case few people knew about the truth and they all lied to both Beato-2 and Kinzo to go along with it and reality STILL won in Kinzo's heart.

To give a few more ~
- Eva's delusions that if she tried really hard she would be chosen as successor by Kinzo.
- Natsuhi's delusions about Kinzo accepting her as a Ushiromiya and the crest in her heart and all that.
- Rosa's delusions about her husband coming back.
- George's impossible (apparently) delusions about making a family with Shannon. Also incude how he believed he should behave to be popular with girls.
- Jessica's (most likely) impossible delusions about a relation with Kanon.
- Kyrie's delusions about how to get Rudolph (prior to Rudolph ending up with Asumu).
- The delusions shared by most people that finding the gold will solve their problems.

The series, IMO, showered us with the idea that delusions are inherently doomed by being delusions unless you have incredibly perfect environment and relations that nutures them, and even so.

I think it's closer to showing us how someone managed to beat these impossible odds rather then encouraging the idea per say.
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Old 2011-03-06, 16:14   Link #22214
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Are there any latest interviews with Ryukushi on his own thoughts on his series? I love these interpretations though; it's very mind-opening!

If relevant, Umineko and Higurashi itself and the theory of Meta-world reminded me of Meta-Theatrical aspects of Tom Haggards' plays. For example, the 1970's "The Real Inspector Hound". Overall, the aspect of "Theatre of the Absurd": don't search for logic when there is none, if I'm correct (not stating that we shouldn't, that's the fun of it!)

But if anyone would like to answer, all these delusions of Kanon/Shannon, (this is possibly answered) is because of the stupidity of the characters (namingly Krauss and Natsushi)? Very hard to believe, but it's the only thing plausible. (I'm very late)
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Old 2011-03-06, 17:06   Link #22215
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But if anyone would like to answer, all these delusions of Kanon/Shannon, (this is possibly answered) is because of the stupidity of the characters (namingly Krauss and Natsushi)? Very hard to believe, but it's the only thing plausible. (I'm very late)
We should remember that all servants are introduced to Natsuhi as she's the one in charge of them. Kanon getting through would be thanks to Genji being in charge of the one winged servants as Kinzo's closest, but he'd still have to make an appearance to Krauss and his wife before they can suspect him of being Kinzo's spy. Genji being Kinzo's only personal servant actually makes sense. Shannon getting to be one too would be Genji's doing so she wouldn't have to leave the island, I think. According to my reasoning Kanon persona was created and used as seen in ep7 and his interaction with Jessica, and added to Kinzo's privates by Genji to minimize the time spent with other servants and the family, making the illusion of his existence (or in other words, the secret of his existence as an alternative personality) easier to preserve. This way Krauss and his family don't neccessarily need to be baffling idiots that don't see a kid playing dress up right under their nose
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Old 2011-03-06, 17:40   Link #22216
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But if anyone would like to answer, all these delusions of Kanon/Shannon, (this is possibly answered) is because of the stupidity of the characters (namingly Krauss and Natsushi)? Very hard to believe, but it's the only thing plausible. (I'm very late)
I believe that the "answer" given to us within Umineko about this lies in the scenario of Jessica's "ghost story" told by her in arc 7. She considered that it was a trick, and then thought of how many people would be needed in order to make that trick, and ended up chosing to disregard that possibility and rather believe her perception was wrong and that it was neither a trick nor fantasy.

In other words the reasons why characters within the story disregard the possibility of Shkanon being true is the same reasons a large part of the readers (including me) believed Shkanon to be impossible. So it's unlikeliness and incredibleness are part of why it is possible.
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Old 2011-03-06, 18:04   Link #22217
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"Hey kids! If you believe in something, it will happen. Fuck hard work. You just need to repeat it over and over again without doing any actual effort."

Somehow, I doubt any writer in his right mind would want to pass that message.
This is pretty much the definition of looking at the situation 'without love', taking the worst possible definition and exageratting it. I don't think this is really fair, as magic is even shown as way to improve oneself, as shown by Yasu. The essence of what I believe he's saying is that someone's subjective truth or belief is a sacred thing that can't be just taken away by someone imposing their 'objective view'.

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
There is the problem that what you "create" through this method can only be seen by someone who believes that it exists.

Kinzo, Shannon and Kanon... they are definitely NOT like every other characters. Shannon and Kanon can never appear both at the same time in front of Battler, Kinzo can never appear in front of Battler at all (let's forget about chiru which would complicate the discussion).

Reality exists whether you believe it does or not, the things that all that magic create are indistinguishable from illusions. Their postulated nature itself make them impossible to prove. And just like illusions they can vanish or appear in and from thin air.

You can say they are real but that's only slightly above a mere semantic issue, there's absolutely no difference in practical terms.

Anyway I think that the healthiest approach to "magic" that was shown in Umineko was Ange's in EP4 in 1998. There she's able to fantasize about magical being while maintaining a clear discernment of what's real and what's not.

Maria's case is the worst of all. Denying reality is bad by itself, denying your true feelings is a hundredfolds worse.
Maria simply can't accept her own sadness, she refuses the idea that she's pitiable even if her condition definitely is, but even if she covers it with happy thoughts she can't erase those feelings, human psychology just doesn't work that way.

Denying or repressing your true feelings is a sure ticket to insanity land... no wonder...
You can say that about 'delusions' that only affect the individual, such as Sakutarou for Maria or Yasu's various creations, but it becomes a more loaded question when you talk about Kanon and Shannon. It seems to me that if you're going to take what you said to it's logical conclusion you're saying that Kanon and Shannon are as good as mist. You can say they would just 'disappear' but Umineko never shows this happening. He presents them as individuals of equal worth to any of the other individuals. Do you think their whole story and existence was a lie just to get around red truths? (Something that pretty much only makes sense if we subscribe to a higher realm, anyways). Do their lives have no meaning?

But to reiterate, this is why I believe that there is the meta-world where they do have full existence, even if you can say what you will about the normal world.

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He stressed out how at least two people are needed to create a world over and over. Maria/Beato3, Beato3/Battler, Toya/Hachijou. George, in arc 1, mentioned how Maria's delusions isn't anything special per say, it's only special because her's are different then others. I'm just going with what the novels says. In practice it means that the "most unique" your delusions are (such as Beato's or Maria's), the fewer chances you'll have to share them with anyone else. That can lead to the end of your delusions (see Beato after Ange removed Maria in arc 4) and later on their death (see arc 5).

That Battler managed to make all that turn around for Beato doesn't change that he very well could never have done so, and the delusion of Beatrice would've died completely.

I think the myriad of cats attacking Will and Lion in arc 7 Ura shows that delusions have a very low chance of survival when faced under many observers. Sure Ryuukishi is actually telling us not to give up, but that doesn't make it any more likely that they do survive.
Well I would argue that the examples you cite of Beato in arc 4 and her death in arc 5 are a little different. These are already fully meta-world events, so at this level we're not talking about existence or non-existence anymore, we're talking about loneliness, despair and hopelessness on the higher realm.

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Even on a simpler level, arc 7 also showed us that no matter how much Kinzo deluded himself into believing Beato 2 was Beato 1 reincarnated, the reality of it always ended up catching up to him. After all no matter what he tries, he cannot ever make her remember her mother's life. That's the power of reality hitting you in the face, the most likely outcome of encouraging yourself to believe in delusions (again see Ange in arc 4 with the stakes at school). In that case few people knew about the truth and they all lied to both Beato-2 and Kinzo to go along with it and reality STILL won in Kinzo's heart.
I just need to clear something up. All I said was that I believe that the series presents that belief can create things. This does not equal magic happening in reality. But that doesn't mean you can't still create what you're looking for, and this is exactly where the meta world comes in and one of the reasons I fight so hard for looking at it as a 'real' place. I'll explain through your examples.


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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
To give a few more ~
- Eva's delusions that if she tried really hard she would be chosen as successor by Kinzo.
It's true this never 'really' happened... except within the meta world. Eva did succeed, just it was as the next Beatrice. The title may be different, but the feelings of achievement and happiness were the same. When young Eva became EVA-Beatrice, it really was a meaningful moment for her. I even use the song, Happiness of Marionette, as proof.

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- Natsuhi's delusions about Kinzo accepting her as a Ushiromiya and the crest in her heart and all that.
Except within Natsuhi's 'delusion' he did encourage her, and she even gains confidence and acts as such.


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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
- George's impossible (apparently) delusions about making a family with Shannon. Also incude how he believed he should behave to be popular with girls.
- Jessica's (most likely) impossible delusions about a relation with Kanon.
I argue that this has already happened, as shown. I can't say about the family, but that is mostly because the whole catbox situation makes things murky.

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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
- Rosa's delusions about her husband coming back.
- Kyrie's delusions about how to get Rudolph (prior to Rudolph ending up with Asumu).
- The delusions shared by most people that finding the gold will solve their problems.

The series, IMO, showered us with the idea that delusions are inherently doomed by being delusions unless you have incredibly perfect environment and relations that nutures them, and even so.
I think it's closer to showing us how someone managed to beat these impossible odds rather then encouraging the idea per say.
These last examples are things that are getting beyond the scope of existence of magic or not. I'm not saying that people don't have problems. My thesis is more limited to the meta-world being a legitimate place to gain meaning and fulfillment.

I semi-disagree with your later point, as I think that Yasu did much more then just beat impossible odds. The catbox situation created a reality and situation that let many, many people gain what they wanted and come to terms with and realize their true feelings. (Check my 'Lovingly Crafted Tale' link for more of my thoughts on that.)
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Old 2011-03-06, 18:24   Link #22218
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Well I would argue that the examples you cite of Beato in arc 4 and her death in arc 5 are a little different. These are already fully meta-world events, so at this level we're not talking about existence or non-existence anymore, we're talking about loneliness, despair and hopelessness on the higher realm.
Even if it's meta-character delusions they remains delusions. I don't see how the logic of delusions changes at all in the meta world.

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I just need to clear something up. All I said was that I believe that the series presents that belief can create things. This does not equal magic happening in reality. But that doesn't mean you can't still create what you're looking for, and this is exactly where the meta world comes in and one of the reasons I fight so hard for looking at it as a 'real' place. I'll explain through your examples.
You can create.. belief and delusions. They are "real" as in they are "really" beliefs and delusions but they cannot ever become anything more then that. I am not saying those things cannot affect reality, my entire point is just that you are almost certainly going to get hurt badly when reality crashes in if you indulges in delusions.


Quote:
It's true this never 'really' happened... except within the meta world. Eva did succeed, just it was as the next Beatrice. The title may be different, but the feelings of achievement and happiness were the same. When young Eva became EVA-Beatrice, it really was a meaningful moment for her. I even use the song, Happiness of Marionette, as proof.
I guess I didn't state that clearly as I should have. Even when she found the gold Kinzo himself never chose her as successor. It was Yasu who was the successor and challenged others to solve it even. Sure she became the successor but she never got what she wanted, that Kinzo accepts she has surpassed Krauss in short. That was her real goal.

Quote:
Except within Natsuhi's 'delusion' he did encourage her, and she even gains confidence and acts as such.
And then, Bernkastel's truth crushed her completely when she learned Kinzo never cared about her. See, delusions end up that way. And that is what the serie portrays, not my personal opinion.

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I argue that this has already happened, as shown. I can't say about the family, but that is mostly because the whole catbox situation makes things murky.
Happened within delusions, and even so. I don't remember seeing Shannon and George's family if anything.

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These last examples are things that are getting beyond the scope of existence of magic or not. I'm not saying that people don't have problems. My thesis is more limited to the meta-world being a legitimate place to gain meaning and fulfillment.
But magic is just a delusion among many, without much difference from another. At the very least also it was told directly to us in arc 7 how the belief of the value of gold is actually magic.

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I semi-disagree with your later point, as I think that Yasu did much more then just beat impossible odds. The catbox situation created a reality and situation that let many, many people gain what they wanted and come to terms with and realize their true feelings. (Check my 'Lovingly Crafted Tale' link for more of my thoughts on that.)
Or alternatively, there is the reality that everyone died and no one got a single thing they wanted. They are not "happier", they are dead. If you need some sort of compensation that they are happier in the afterlife, religion does that well enough without needing a Beatrice legend throw in the mess.

The "catbox" of umineko is really a bad catbox actually. We know that "many cats" entered the box and that "nearly all of them died". The only thing we do not know is the mechanism of their death.

Catbox idea is meant to hide a "result" but in Umineko it only hides a process.

They even found a piece of Maria's jaw. How deader can you be?
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Old 2011-03-06, 18:35   Link #22219
Keriaku
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UsagiTenpura, we have a fundamental disagreement so I don't think our conversation can go much farthur then this. I'm not sure if you have read it or not, but please read this post I did a page or 2 back: Meta-World Theory: Reality-Fantasy Perspective, if only so you can know my views. My whole point is that the meta-world exists and can give meaning. If you disagree 100% on that point, then the rest of this conversation is extraneous because it won't go anywhere.

A point I will comment on is about Natsuhi, and her 'reality' only got crushed there because she let it. If her belief was more steadfast, I'm sure Bern wouldn't have been able to do anything.

And doesn't the story also show Maria 'existing' in the future and having conversations with Ange? Though I'm sure you'll easily disregard this.
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Old 2011-03-06, 18:59   Link #22220
UsagiTenpura
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Originally Posted by Keriaku View Post
UsagiTenpura, we have a fundamental disagreement so I don't think our conversation can go much farthur then this. I'm not sure if you have read it or not, but please read this post I did a page or 2 back: Meta-World Theory: Reality-Fantasy Perspective, if only so you can know my views. My whole point is that the meta-world exists and can give meaning. If you disagree 100% on that point, then the rest of this conversation is extraneous because it won't go anywhere.

A point I will comment on is about Natsuhi, and her 'reality' only got crushed there because she let it. If her belief was more steadfast, I'm sure Bern wouldn't have been able to do anything.

And doesn't the story also show Maria 'existing' in the future and having conversations with Ange? Though I'm sure you'll easily disregard this.
I don't disagree with all of the basic idea you said. If I were to take an extreme real world equivalent, then religions, which are "things created by human minds", gave shape to a large part of human historty, they most certainly can affect reality, give meaning to people's lives, to people's death, and a lot of both good and bad things.

I also said earlier that they are "real" as ideas. I get that you disagree with that and mean that they are "real" period, and that is not something I can agree with. I also do not believe UmiNoBernkastel to be the "result" of Furude Rika. More importantly I think beside speculative fandom it cannot produce any results in establishing a valid theory to explain any aspects of Umineko.

However I do not feel like Umineko does a positive portrayal of what you support at all, much the opposite. Even if I am to consider that each "story" is "real", they still all ended up with everyone dead and only alive as furniture within a fantasy (For an example, Rosa "summoned" by Maria in arc 4 in Beato's golden land).

In fact it sounds like that output is even worst because it makes "real" that they died over and over again (including for instance, Rosa and Maria being killed and revived iono how many times by Eva-Beato). Accepting fantasy as it is, Battler did almost twice (arc 2's end and arc 3's end). The first time Beatrice showed him a "nightmarish" results where she tortured Rosa just to "piss off Battler" enough to motivate him to strike back again. The second time she basically broke his entire trust of her to ensure that he would never be tricked into accepting it again.

So not only is a fantasy truth of the arcs even worst for the fate of the characters then the actual reality of them, but it makes that worseness repeat itself nearly endlessly.

I do not think the series encourages us to believe in, at the very least, the delusions we are shown within arcs. If tragically dying before being able to tell your girlfriend that you love her is a "way to fulfill your love" (George arc 2) then I'd really rather not ever fulfill any love relationships. Or maybe Rosa got enlightened by being crushed a thousand times by a demented Maria in arc 4?

To have a positive portrayal of delusions within Umineko, you have to be extremely selective in which delusions you chose to accept while discarding 95% of the rest, is how it feels to me.

So you end up with a theory that seems like "only the convenient delusions that leads to a happy ending are true" and that's... way too convenient, sorry.
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