AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Umineko

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2011-03-06, 19:00   Link #22221
Judoh
Mystery buff
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
The phrase is "without love it cannot be seen" and there's the maxim "seeing is beleiving".

In the past we used this line to avoid criticism when our logic had holes in it thinking that author would fill them in. Of course not realizing that the author wanted us to fill those holes in for him. Lacking love is not a valid criticism anymore. If one can't see what the author intended than it's not because he doesn't understand, but because the author did a bad job at getting him to understand it. That's my deep thought of the day anyway.
Judoh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-06, 19:06   Link #22222
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronove View Post
Are there any latest interviews with Ryukushi on his own thoughts on his series? I love these interpretations though; it's very mind-opening!
But... the author is dead!

Not literally dead, I mean.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
The phrase is "without love it cannot be seen" and there's the maxim "seeing is beleiving".
Whatever form the translation now takes (seen/discerned/understood/etc.), it's funny because it's logically meaningless.

If love == no, then not x is not logically equivalent to if love == yes, then x. Nor to if x, then love == yes. That's my deep thought of the day.
Quote:
Lacking love is not a valid criticism anymore. If one can't see what the author intended than it's not because he doesn't understand, but because the author did a bad job at getting him to understand it. That's my deep thought of the day anyway.
It was never a valid criticism, because it was always used by people under the arrogant assumption that they do "have love" (whatever that means, they certainly rarely ever could say) and those against whom they were arguing didn't. Despite having no way to determine that. Or any idea what it even means.

I'm pretty sure it doesn't actually mean anything.
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-06, 19:40   Link #22223
UsagiTenpura
Echo of Noise
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Yesterday!
Send a message via Skype™ to UsagiTenpura
Quote:
Love is an illusion, a misunderstanding.
Mutual love is a mutual misunderstanding of being mutually loved.
And engagement is a vow to not wake up for your whole life from that misunderstanding.
Ronove
So... without "misunderstanding" it cannot be seen. Interesting.

(From Bern's letter btw)
UsagiTenpura is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-06, 23:59   Link #22224
Keriaku
Thought Being
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Canada
Quote:
Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
I don't disagree with all of the basic idea you said. If I were to take an extreme real world equivalent, then religions, which are "things created by human minds", gave shape to a large part of human historty, they most certainly can affect reality, give meaning to people's lives, to people's death, and a lot of both good and bad things.

I also said earlier that they are "real" as ideas. I get that you disagree with that and mean that they are "real" period, and that is not something I can agree with.
UsagiTenpura, I would like to thank you for giving my theory some thought! I appreciate it. And I apologize but I'm gonna be breaking up and reordering your post a little so I can respond in a coherent fashion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
However I do not feel like Umineko does a positive portrayal of what you support at all, much the opposite. Even if I am to consider that each "story" is "real", they still all ended up with everyone dead and only alive as furniture within a fantasy (For an example, Rosa "summoned" by Maria in arc 4 in Beato's golden land).

In fact it sounds like that output is even worst because it makes "real" that they died over and over again (including for instance, Rosa and Maria being killed and revived iono how many times by Eva-Beato).
Quote:
Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
…Or maybe Rosa got enlightened by being crushed a thousand times by a demented Maria in arc 4?
I see where you're coming from, but I'll try to explain my thoughts on this.

I believe the problem you're finding is a result of you trying to apply a black and white perspective on whether the meta-world is a positive or negative thing.

First off, as a side note, I think the end result of believing in the meta-world is that death doesn't actually matter so much anymore. There is still the thoughts and emotions to take into account, but I'm going to put those aside to explain my point. Through the endless, multi-Fragment nature of the meta-world, people will keep existing. It’s not a permanent loss as in the real world.

It's true that people have the ability to misuse the 'power' they have on this realm. But if you notice, Ryuukishi always makes a point of showing that these ways of using the meta-world is 'morally wrong', and highlights the cruelty of it. For example, Battler gets very upset at Beato for enjoying EVA-Beatrice's display. Beato even spends the next little while repenting for her actions, helps people AND the climax of the game is stopping EVA-Beatrice because of her cruelty.

For MARIA in EP4, it’s true she’s being cruel, but don’t forget that Beatrice is simply giving her an outlet for the deep emotional damage she has sustained. And it’s a much better outlet then having Maria lash out against her mother in the ‘normal’ world, possibly destroying their relationship forever. She even comes out of it and retains a relatively healthy relationship with her mother afterwards (as we know that the events of the arcs are ‘after’ Sakutarou has been killed). Though, even here, Beatrice laments the fact that this is the only way for Maria to be satisfied.

If anything, don’t look at it as good and bad, but rather why it is happening. Remember, motive and ‘the heart’ is key. I think just about anytime someone does something ‘cruel’ in the meta-world, you can always understand or are given reasons why they act how they do. A big part of Umineko is highlighting the flaws people have and showing the need to overcome these. Having the meta-world be real doesn’t change that this is a part of Umineko, rather it makes it that this growth actually happens. Things aren’t just left at the real world ‘fact’ that everyone in the family is a terrible person. This would be another reason I fight so strongly for this theory.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
Accepting fantasy as it is, Battler did almost twice (arc 2's end and arc 3's end). The first time Beatrice showed him a "nightmarish" results where she tortured Rosa just to "piss off Battler" enough to motivate him to strike back again. The second time she basically broke his entire trust of her to ensure that he would never be tricked into accepting it again.
Well I believe it’s a part of Beatrice’s character that she’s gotten too ‘used’ to this higher level. She’s lost touch with the human, emotional side of things. Beatrice pretty much believes she’s doing Rosa a favour in the Tea Party, but instead it shows her naivety towards human feelings. This itself is an interesting part of Beatrice’s character. I actually think this is a theme of sorts in the series, that human emotions and thoughts are important and should not be disregarded. Many times in the series you have people ‘fighting’ for them, and that they should be taken into account. This manifests in the whole ‘motive’ side of mystery that is brought up so much as well.

The second part is just a story detail, something like that Beatrice realized she didn’t want to win that way. But I don’t want to confuse things and get into plot details like this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
I do not think the series encourages us to believe in, at the very least, the delusions we are shown within arcs. If tragically dying before being able to tell your girlfriend that you love her is a "way to fulfill your love" (George arc 2) then I'd really rather not ever fulfill any love relationships.
But if you subscribe to the meta-world being real, why disregard the sequence of events? There is character development, and the different relationships are key examples of this. The whole point is that they couldn’t fulfill their love then, but by the later half of the series that became a possibility. It did happen. Looking at EP2 as an isolated example in this case doesn’t really make sense under this theory.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
To have a positive portrayal of delusions within Umineko, you have to be extremely selective in which delusions you chose to accept while discarding 95% of the rest, is how it feels to me.

So you end up with a theory that seems like "only the convenient delusions that leads to a happy ending are true" and that's... way too convenient, sorry.

So not only is a fantasy truth of the arcs even worst for the fate of the characters then the actual reality of them, but it makes that worseness repeat itself nearly endlessly.
I’m basically repeating myself by now, but I don’t believe I’m being selective at all. The meta-world doesn’t have to be all sugar and rainbows to be real. But the positives are all there, and the series does go to positive places if you believe the meta-world is real like this. If anything, it’s only really negative when you’re trying to apply a ‘real’ world perspective on the meta-world, which isn’t as applicable anymore. Death isn’t the ultimate end, and the characters have room for growth.

Again, I’m not trying to downplay the cruelty of what Beatrice did. I’m just trying to make my point. There is still much to be said about the despair, sadness and anger people feel when their family is killed. But that’s a different discussion from the higher level happenings.

I actually think it’s really interesting how Umineko has enough ‘depth’ that you basically need to zoom in and out your perspective on different things to talk about everything that happens. It’s almost impossible to have one conversation that’s taking everything into account all at once.

Something else that’s interesting is that believing all of this is real doesn’t need to interfere with the actual mystery at all. Rather, as EP3 describes, it can exist in parallel with the real world. In EP3, we can talk about the ‘real’ killer and the method, the red truth, et cetera, while simultaneously being able to discuss why EVA-Beatrice did what she did, her motives, et cetera. This is the beauty of how Ryuukishi has presented Umineko, and I feel like many people that don’t agree with me disregard these different sides. It feels like the whole meta-world side of the discussion is left at whether or not it is included within the fiction and left unexplored. I feel that that is a shame. If you open your mind to the possibility of the meta-world being real, there are many, many avenues of the story to explore. And I can’t think of anything that needs to be discarded, it can all be examined equally.

Last edited by Keriaku; 2011-03-07 at 00:32.
Keriaku is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-07, 00:10   Link #22225
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Well I think the question becomes is really "with love" the right way to look at the world.

If it's just about seeing stuff I could even say: "Without LSD it can't be seen". No one can debate that.


It is interesting to note that there is a widespread agreement that "love is blind", in most cases it's true.
If you think s/he's the most beautiful woman/man in the world there's something wrong with your eyes or your mind.


Love is great, I'm not arguing that, but it's definitely not the right way to see the world for what it is.

I have no obligation to love Ryuukishi's story and characters. I'll love his story and their characters if he can make me love them. That's what he must do. If I don't love them, that's his fault not mine. Well maybe it's not his fault, it's not like he can make his story liked by everyone, but that's certainly what an author should strive for and certainly no one can expect a reader to love a story and their characters a priori.
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-07, 00:16   Link #22226
Sherringford
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keriaku View Post
This is pretty much the definition of looking at the situation 'without love', taking the worst possible definition and exageratting it. I don't think this is really fair, as magic is even shown as way to improve oneself, as shown by Yasu. The essence of what I believe he's saying is that someone's subjective truth or belief is a sacred thing that can't be just taken away by someone imposing their 'objective view'.
It's not 'loveless.' Fans have redefined the word love to mean "what supports my cute interpretation."

It's like a school kid going "well you have a good point but YOU ARE UGLY SO THERE. YOUR ARGUMENT IS INVALID."

Say that there was no culture telling people that being willingly delusional was an idiotic thing to do. Then kids would grow up going "I have an imaginary friend named Bozco!" and hearing "YOU KNOW BOZCO?" in response.

Dwelling in fantasy is not healthy. You can argue about subjective truths all you want, but from a medical and psychological point of view, it is objectively not healthy. Ryuukishi's theme is really, really childish once you stop to think about it. Which goes back to the discussion of truth=good lies=bad from a couple pages ago.

Also, Yasu didn't improve herself, unless you think going from heartbroken to in-love-with-three-cousins-and-sort-of-cheating-on-them-while-pretending-to-be-three-different-people is an improvement.

Yasu solved the problem of being heartbroken by creating an alternative personality. You may argue semantics and whether she did it consciously or just went crazy, but you can't say that creating another person to deal with being heartbroken is a good thing.

That's idiotic. We've all been there. There are three ways to solve it. You go drink with friends, you go drink with friends, or you just suck it up and deal with it like everyone else in the planet. Yasu chose the mysterious fourth option of "creating another person to deal with that."

So to sum up, I disagree with magic being a good thing. It's unhealthy.
Sherringford is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-07, 00:45   Link #22227
Mcjon01
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sherringford View Post
That's idiotic. We've all been there. There are three ways to solve it. You go drink with friends, you go drink with friends, or you just suck it up and deal with it like everyone else in the planet. Yasu chose the mysterious fourth option of "creating another person to deal with that."

So to sum up, I disagree with magic being a good thing. It's unhealthy.
Yes, but in the world of Umineko, those would be the Magic of Friendship, the Magic of Liquor, and the Magic of Well-adjustedness. Respectively.
Mcjon01 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-07, 02:04   Link #22228
AuraTwilight
The True Culprit
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Golden Land
Send a message via AIM to AuraTwilight Send a message via MSN to AuraTwilight
Quote:
Love is great, I'm not arguing that, but it's definitely not the right way to see the world for what it is.
And yet, conversely, without love, some truths can't be seen. Love made Maria see the abusive Rosa as a wonderful mother, but the lack of love made Ange ignore Eva's suffering and kindness and saw her as a pure evil monster.

Quote:
So to sum up, I disagree with magic being a good thing. It's unhealthy.
Beatrice's magic, yes. But Umineko portrays multiple forms of magic, and not all of those are synonymous with delusion. Magic is "interpretation", which is entirely different and arguably impossible to not do.
__________________
When the Silent Spirits Cry: An Umineko/Silent Hill crossover fanfiction
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4565173&postcount=531
AuraTwilight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-07, 03:31   Link #22229
erneiz_hyde
Indifferent
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: InterWebs
I kinda admire people like Sherringford. Their way of thinking allows them suck everything the world throws at them and stay up for another round or two. It's one form of strength.

Quote:
Love is great, I'm not arguing that, but it's definitely not the right way to see the world for what it is.
Sometimes I wonder whether I hate humanity as a whole because they are capable of making me individually love them more with their ugly nature, or I love humanity as a whole because they are capable of making me individually hate them more with their ugly nature.
__________________
erneiz_hyde is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-07, 06:55   Link #22230
Keriaku
Thought Being
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Canada
Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
And yet, conversely, without love, some truths can't be seen. Love made Maria see the abusive Rosa as a wonderful mother, but the lack of love made Ange ignore Eva's suffering and kindness and saw her as a pure evil monster.

---

Beatrice's magic, yes. But Umineko portrays multiple forms of magic, and not all of those are synonymous with delusion. Magic is "interpretation", which is entirely different and arguably impossible to not do.
I think this is pretty much the point of the phrase 'without love it can't be seen'. To me it just simply means that to fully understand something or someone, you need to align your perspective with theirs. It's just advocating empathy in the most general, intuitive way possible. And under this definition, I think there are many times I'm legitimately allowed to use the phrase, whether it's when people misunderstand or misinterpret my views, those of the characters, or otherwise. I agree that the phrase itself is up for interpretation, but the message across every time Ryuukishi has used it seems to boil down to this. I admit that Ryuukishi used the phrases a bit too many times and 'cheapened' it, but I believe he only did that to show that it really is a general message.

With Umineko, Ryuukishi has shown that he is completely aware that it is a 100%, inevitable, part of the human condition that people interpret things their own way the second the information hits their senses. That's why he coined a phrase such as this. Remember, 'understanding' Beatrice and such is a main point in the story, but the message goes way beyond that.

Last edited by Keriaku; 2011-03-07 at 07:19.
Keriaku is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-07, 08:27   Link #22231
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
And yet, conversely, without love, some truths can't be seen. Love made Maria see the abusive Rosa as a wonderful mother, but the lack of love made Ange ignore Eva's suffering and kindness and saw her as a pure evil monster.
I don't see it that way. Ange ignored Eva's suffering because she hated her, Maria seeing Rosa as a "wonderful" mother wasn't "seeing the truth".

I don't really think that "love" or any emotion can get you closer to the "truth", it's always the opposite.


But it's all right because in umineko "the truth is not that important". The only thing that matters is the illusion you see once you outright deny the truth in order to envision a better world.
__________________


Last edited by Jan-Poo; 2011-03-07 at 08:40.
Jan-Poo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-07, 10:31   Link #22232
Judoh
Mystery buff
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I don't see it that way. Ange ignored Eva's suffering because she hated her, Maria seeing Rosa as a "wonderful" mother wasn't "seeing the truth".
Actually she ignored Eva because she didn't want her to replace her parents, which is understandable for a 6 year old. The Eva hate came later for putting her in a horrible school, and because Ange thought she was a murderer, etc

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I don't really think that "love" or any emotion can get you closer to the "truth", it's always the opposite.
It's different for relationships between people however.
Judoh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-07, 11:02   Link #22233
Sherringford
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
I kinda admire people like Sherringford. Their way of thinking allows them suck everything the world throws at them and stay up for another round or two. It's one form of strength.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uASVzkrEKgs

Quote:
It's different for relationships between people however.
Really, love just makes it harder to see the truth with relationships between people.

Let's take a look at Maria. Her mother is a terrible, terrible mother. She sees her as great because she loves her so much.

That...isn't seeing the truth. That is deluding yourself. Love does that to a lot of people. Never heard the saying "Love is blind?"
Sherringford is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-07, 11:23   Link #22234
Judoh
Mystery buff
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
I'm not saying that justifying a person's repeated wrongful actions is a good idea, but that not being willing to understand the reason for it isn't a good idea either.
Judoh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-07, 11:40   Link #22235
ndqanh_vn
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Quote:
Let's take a look at Maria. Her mother is a terrible, terrible mother. She sees her as great because she loves her so much.
Well, I kinda understand Maria's point. And Rosa is actually not that bad of a human. She really acts like a horrible bitch who cares nothing about her child, and maybe she is a bitch, but somehow I could sympathize with her deeply for behaving like this. She loves Maria, she really does, but sometimes people just makes those they love suffer. There are no contradiction here. The fact that she loves Maria, and the facts that she hates Maria exists at the same time. Some abusive parents actually love their child a lot, and regrets about their action but keep doing it for reasons they cannot control.

I feel a bit sad that some people still think that Rosa has no love for her daughter at all. Rosa is a well-written character, believable and multi-dimension.

Actually I feel the same for most in that fucked up family. They're all horrible, horrible jerks, but they're capable of loving and understandable at some point. Ryukishi is capable of writing some interesting female characters.

Quote:
"Hey kids! If you believe in something, it will happen. Fuck hard work. You just need to repeat it over and over again without doing any actual effort."
You understand what kind of power Lambdadelta represents right? Could you say Miyo Takano did not work hard? And Bern pretty says "miracle will not happen just because you believe in it" in "Witch's tanabata". And yes, she's the witch of Miracle.
ndqanh_vn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-07, 11:56   Link #22236
Keriaku
Thought Being
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Canada
Quote:
Originally Posted by ndqanh_vn View Post
Well, I kinda understand Maria's point. And Rosa is actually not that bad of a human. She really acts like a horrible bitch who cares nothing about her child, and maybe she is a bitch, but somehow I could sympathize with her deeply for behaving like this. She loves Maria, she really does, but sometimes people just makes those they love suffer. There are no contradiction here. The fact that she loves Maria, and the facts that she hates Maria exists at the same time. Some abusive parents actually love their child a lot, and regrets about their action but keep doing it for reasons they cannot control.

I feel a bit sad that some people still think that Rosa has no love for her daughter at all.

Actually I feel the same for everybody in that fucked up family. They're all horrible, horrible jerks, but they're capable of loving and understandable at some point. Ryukishi is capable of writing some interesting female characters.
Your final point is pretty much what I believe was the major consequence of Beatrice making this game. We got to see all sides of the family. By creating a catbox situation, regardless of your thoughts on the reality of the meta-world, the fact that these things are presented means that the issues weren't left solely at whatever 'objective evidence' could be found elsewhere. Maria's diary, 'objectively' showing that Rosa's a bad mother. Eva as the sole survivor, 'objectively' showing that she might as well have been a mass murderer, and whatever else there might have been.

I don't disregard the Author Theory as a whole, but I disagree with any advocates of it that say all the different sides we see of the people involved is 'fictional' and therefore meaningless.

My belief is that the series is showing real sides of the people invovled, more than just a set of imagined reconstructions of them. I think that is one of my core contentions with the author theory within it's most basic propositions.
Keriaku is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-07, 12:10   Link #22237
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keriaku View Post
I don't disregard the Author Theory as a whole, but I disagree with any advocates of it that say all the different sides we see of the people involved is 'fictional' and therefore meaningless.
Then you clearly indicate that you understand absolutely nothing about that theory, what it believes, or the conclusions being drawn from the themes presented.

You will not find a single Author Theory advocate who believes the fictional nature of much of the characterization renders the narrative meaningless. In fact, many will tell you that Erika, essentially a wholly fictional character, nevertheless has meaningful impact on her development and the development of those she interacts with.

However, the fictionalization of the characters allows them to be trended to extremes. I think Rosa is a particular victim of this. In ep5 especially, she is portrayed as acting in the interests of Maria in a manner which Maria is too young to understand. On the surface she appears to be ignoring and betraying Maria (as she does in, say, ep4); in reality the matter may have been considerably more complicated.

Maria's diary is a poor source for this, because Maria is nine. A nine-year-old doesn't easily understand how a parent could break a promise and still be acting in their child's best interest. There's enough evidence about Rosa to go either way, but most likely, they're both closer than you'd figure.
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-07, 12:15   Link #22238
Judoh
Mystery buff
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keriaku View Post
I don't disregard the Author Theory as a whole, but I disagree with any advocates of it that say all the different sides we see of the people involved is 'fictional' and therefore meaningless.
People who do that aren't representing the intention of the theory. That is to explain the growth in many of the characters without the existence of time loops. Since the premise that time loops exists implies Beatrice has some sort of time magic ability as well as how Ryukishi said he was going to do things different this time.
Judoh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-07, 12:15   Link #22239
UsagiTenpura
Echo of Noise
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Yesterday!
Send a message via Skype™ to UsagiTenpura
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keriaku View Post
*snip*
Sorry but yeah, from what I see you disregard nearly everything. You claim that every world is "real" while in actuality you disregard every single "world", both their fantasy and their mystery aspects, as well as Rokkenjima prime, and all their outcomes (since they all end badly) for the sole "world" that is the Meta world. It doesn't matter if you were slaughtered a thousand times in "stories" and in the "real world" because you find some happiness in the Meta World, that's what you propose, and that is discarding over 95% of the serie.

Not to say that the serie had characters specially have conversations about how happiness isn't something we should find in another world. The main conversation over that is even spoken by Shannon and Kanon too, so Yasu.

If as you propose every world is real then every world's outcome is also real. Think of it with Higurashi. If every "arcs" of Higurashi is "real" then it means that even tho in the final arc Rika got a good ending, she still got a bad ending in countless worlds. These worlds would all be as "real" as the one where she got her happy ending. So the story really ended horribly like over 99% of the time. The bad endings of previous arcs aren't erased by the emergence of a new arc. The worst of it tho, is that the case you propose is not even in a "different possibility of a world" but altogether in another world that is pretty much an afterlife.

Perhaps the love (making blind) is the reason why you disregard most of what occurs in the serie?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
I'm not saying that justifying a person's repeated wrongful actions is a good idea, but that not being willing to understand the reason for it isn't a good idea either.
What you said is why I don't get how come people have troubles with the moral aspects of the serie. Isn't it basically a very normal aim for a story? That the readers end up understanding the thoughts and emotions that lead a criminal to being one, doesn't imply that we have to agree with these decisions. It should even be preferable that the reader constanty is aware of the "wrongdoings" of antagonists while still understanding them.
UsagiTenpura is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-07, 12:21   Link #22240
Sherringford
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by ndqanh_vn View Post
Well, I kinda understand Maria's point. And Rosa is actually not that bad of a human. She really acts like a horrible bitch who cares nothing about her child, and maybe she is a bitch, but somehow I could sympathize with her deeply for behaving like this. She loves Maria, she really does, but sometimes people just makes those they love suffer. There are no contradiction here. The fact that she loves Maria, and the facts that she hates Maria exists at the same time. Some abusive parents actually love their child a lot, and regrets about their action but keep doing it for reasons they cannot control.

I feel a bit sad that some people still think that Rosa has no love for her daughter at all. Rosa is a well-written character, believable and multi-dimension.

Actually I feel the same for most in that fucked up family. They're all horrible, horrible jerks, but they're capable of loving and understandable at some point. Ryukishi is capable of writing some interesting female characters.
How does her loving Maria change the fact she is a terrible mother?

Quote:
You understand what kind of power Lambdadelta represents right? Could you say Miyo Takano did not work hard? And Bern pretty says "miracle will not happen just because you believe in it" in "Witch's tanabata". And yes, she's the witch of Miracle.
You understand I'm talking about what the series shows rather than it tells right?
Sherringford is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:19.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.