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Old 2011-03-20, 18:24   Link #22361
rogerpepitone
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I'm not that interested in what happened on Rokkenjima prime, which hasn't been focused on too much. I am interested in what happened in the various stories.

Episode 1 and Bern's letter claimed there were three rules that restricted Beatrice's actions. What are they?

Around the time Episode 5 was released, Ryu claimed that those who have figured out Umineko should be able to figure out what happened after the game was suspended.

Those are questions I'm emotionally invested in, and that I do expect Ryu to answer.
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Old 2011-03-20, 18:50   Link #22362
FirstTwilight
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogerpepitone View Post
I'm not that interested in what happened on Rokkenjima prime, which hasn't been focused on too much. I am interested in what happened in the various stories.

Episode 1 and Bern's letter claimed there were three rules that restricted Beatrice's actions. What are they?
My guess are Yasu's roulette, the bomb and whatever one of the adults tries to solve the epitaph or not.

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Around the time Episode 5 was released, Ryu claimed that those who have figured out Umineko should be able to figure out what happened after the game was suspended.
Bomb.
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Old 2011-03-20, 19:02   Link #22363
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Originally Posted by rogerpepitone View Post
I'm not that interested in what happened on Rokkenjima prime, which hasn't been focused on too much. I am interested in what happened in the various stories.
My theory is (it's based on episode 7's tea party mind you) this:
  • Episodes 1 and 2 were stories with Shannon as the culprit. Fake deaths whatever.
  • Episode 3 was a story based on those who suspected Eva was the culprit, where she solves the epitaph and takes over Shannontrice's role. Also an accomplice toward the end for Nanjo's murder.
  • Episode 4 was a story about a Kinzo culprit theory that was disproved when it was revealed that Kinzo was long dead.
  • Episode 5 was a Natsuhi culprit theory based on the Kinzo's death conspiracy. Though in the real episode 5 she probably isn't given as much of a sympathetic character.
  • Episode 6 was a person X culprit theory story involving Erika

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Episode 1 and Bern's letter claimed there were three rules that restricted Beatrice's actions. What are they?
I wanted to know this too. If you recall I expected Battler to at least explain this part. I don't know if we will ever get an answer to this though.
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Old 2011-03-21, 00:25   Link #22364
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I'm not that interested in what happened on Rokkenjima prime, which hasn't been focused on too much. I am interested in what happened in the various stories.
Will more or less answered this, albeit with overly cryptic and vague answers,or half-answers as I've read them be called around here, that i guess you're supposed to decipher yourself.

I did that and figured whenever he said "Illusions to illusions" he would either refer to an illusion of a closed room or an illusion of a murder (like Bern and Lambdas conversation after the first twilight in ep 6).

"Earth to earth" would then mean everything is as it was described, or "perfect murder perfect closed room"
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Old 2011-03-21, 11:14   Link #22365
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Will more or less answered this, albeit with overly cryptic and vague answers,or half-answers as I've read them be called around here, that i guess you're supposed to decipher yourself.
There were several very important scenes he didn't even address, is the problem. So even if we take Will's "solutions" as the answers to 1-4, he didn't actually answer all of them.
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Old 2011-03-21, 11:26   Link #22366
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There were several very important scenes he didn't even address, is the problem. So even if we take Will's "solutions" as the answers to 1-4, he didn't actually answer all of them.
Or any, depending on your point of view.
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Old 2011-03-21, 12:35   Link #22367
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He answered some; denying the answers made plain because you can't decipher pretty clear metaphors is extremely petty.
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Old 2011-03-21, 12:45   Link #22368
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He answered some, but didn't explain them.

For example, from many of his answers it can be inferred that a lot of persons lied or where part of a conspiracy, but there is no explanations as to why that many people would do that.

This isn't a minor matter, since technically Clair could counter with a "Of course! I used my magic to manipulate everyone". This is definitely a valid move from the witch side since that's what Eva-Beatrice used in EP3.

Remember, she nitpicked about the why Kyrie decided to go to the Mansion even though normally this isn't an event that would make anyone believe in witches and magic. That was one case where a simple "She must have had reason X" would have been a perfectly rational settlement.
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Old 2011-03-21, 13:05   Link #22369
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The question is not how to decipher them (they were very clear, I believe) , but how to connect them. Some of these answers make very little factual sense without additional knowledge, which we are not provided.

I'm perfectly fine with how Umineko stands now, but the complains have been numerous by now and admittedly a lot of those can be inferred simply from authorial laziness.
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Old 2011-03-22, 15:27   Link #22370
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I just think he left it vague because he wanted people to keep having fun coming up with their own answers on the internet. He's not the first writer to encourage the "keep thinking and figure out the plot" thing and then give incomplete answers.
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Old 2011-03-22, 15:36   Link #22371
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It might be my impression but I didn't see many speculations lately, at the very least this thread was a lot more active during past episodes, with like 3 pages per day on average.

I just don't think this idea can work. There aren't that many people willing to speculate about things that will never be confirmed/denied, and in a way or another speculations are bound to end anyway.
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Old 2011-03-22, 17:25   Link #22372
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I just think he left it vague because he wanted people to keep having fun coming up with their own answers on the internet. He's not the first writer to encourage the "keep thinking and figure out the plot" thing and then give incomplete answers.
This is completely true.
And yet I can only sigh and admire him for his na´ve attempt at using something so double-edged.
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Old 2011-03-22, 17:41   Link #22373
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This is completely true.
And yet I can only sigh and admire him for his na´ve attempt at using something so double-edged.
It's ironic.

The people gullible enough to fall for that bait don't have the attention span to keep at it for more than a week or two, and the ones that are capable of keeping it up are also clever enough to see that stunt for what it is.

Poor Ryuukishi.
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Old 2011-03-22, 18:20   Link #22374
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Though i don't have problems with how he left things, i can see why people are angry.
It was fun speculating and everything but some people need to check their answers.

I don't think he can't fix Umineko now, he ended up in a typical situation where the fanbase is angry and everyone is going to criticize every moves he taker no matter what.
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Old 2011-03-22, 18:30   Link #22375
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No reason to feel sorry for him, as no matter how you attempt to explain what he was doing, Ryuukishi was attempting to cynically manipulate his fanbase.

It'd take a true masterpiece to restore the trust he's lost in the eyes of the ones he apparently considers to be the only readers worth having.

Heh, that's a good way of putting it, actually:

"You want me to think about your story? Theorize about it? Nah, this trainwreck isn't worth the time. I think I'd rather have a beer or do something meaningful with my life.

Spoiler for Meaningful Life Action for Adults:


Yeah. Definetly a better way to spend my time."

I wonder what his reaction would be if someone actually said that to him?
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Old 2011-03-22, 19:34   Link #22376
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No reason to feel sorry for him, as no matter how you attempt to explain what he was doing, Ryuukishi was attempting to cynically manipulate his fanbase.
I'd be interested to hear you complete this accusation. What exactly do you mean by "cynically manipulate"?
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Old 2011-03-22, 19:42   Link #22377
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On the one hand, he was using Umineko to create a highly successful franchise by relying on the interest generated by his successful Higurashi series to generate more success and the typical greed-related stuff.

On another hand, you have the possibility that he created a mystery, and then decided to neglect to reveal the answers just to make a terrible point and just stick it to the reader, and those that actually thought about the mystery he presented.

Alternatively, you have the possibility that "the mystery" was all a bunch of nonsense deliberately set up to lure in mystery genre fans in order to justify his bizarre, unsubstantiated, and outright nonsensical "anti-mystery" faux-genre.

What we definetly have, though, is the fact that Ryuukishi spent time building up the importance of a thinking, intelligent reader who tried to find the answer to the story, only to deconstruct what that meant one episode later (while further glorifying it), and then to further attempt to deconstruct and thoroughly mocking the concept in the finale.

There are other possible scenarios (such as the mystery stuff always being a red herring to draw in more readers to what was only ever a better-than-average doujin fantasy story), but the accusations tend to tie into the three I outlined above in some way.

On the other hand, I may not be thinking clearly at the moment due to food poisoning, and have forgotten some possibilities.
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Old 2011-03-22, 20:44   Link #22378
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On the one hand, he was using Umineko to create a highly successful franchise by relying on the interest generated by his successful Higurashi series to generate more success and the typical greed-related stuff.
I would've thought the more cynical option would be to give it a similar ending and similar themes to Higurashi. Y'know, stick to what you know works.

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On another hand, you have the possibility that he created a mystery, and then decided to neglect to reveal the answers just to make a terrible point and just stick it to the reader, and those that actually thought about the mystery he presented.
Making a point to the reader is "cynical manipulation". You hear dit here first.

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Alternatively, you have the possibility that "the mystery" was all a bunch of nonsense deliberately set up to lure in mystery genre fans in order to justify his bizarre, unsubstantiated, and outright nonsensical "anti-mystery" faux-genre.
You were told it wasn't a mystery in the introduction. You'd be accusing him of reverse psychology here.
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Old 2011-03-23, 00:20   Link #22379
Chron
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I would've thought the more cynical option would be to give it a similar ending and similar themes to Higurashi. Y'know, stick to what you know works.
You'll have to explain why that's cynical, actually. Giving people what they want isn't cynicism, its pandering. Not that the two are mutually exclusive, but you'll need to explain that one.


Quote:
Making a point to the reader is "cynical manipulation". You hear dit here first.
Huuuuh. Me telling you i heard a family member was in danger, just so i can rob your house while you're away is cynical, and it is manipulative. You're equating a means with its end, when i implied no such thing. But hey, your mistake.

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You were told it wasn't a mystery in the introduction. You'd be accusing him of reverse psychology here.
Don't be dumb. Knox rules are mystery rules, and to state that the story adheres to them...Well, if were told to put two and two together, then why shouldn't we?

I'm not the one that wrapped umineko in van dine, and I'm not the one who put on airs of it being a mystery, ryuukishi did.

If you want to play blind revisionist, be my guest. But don't waste my time with your doublethink.
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Old 2011-03-23, 00:43   Link #22380
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I seriously think that Ryuukishi didn't have at all the grandiose intents most people seem to be giving him when writing Umineko.
He got an idea, to make a story that would be like Umineko is, and it took shape as Umineko.

You don't make a niche doujin Visual Novel if you're trying to make a masterpiece that sends out a message to the masses and/or Classical Mystery Fans of the west.

Many of the claims I see sounds to me as if christians took offence of a serie such as evangelion and thought it was aimed at them.

I wonder if any other series on Animesuki is subject to such a severe and serious treatment.
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