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Old 2011-03-25, 14:18   Link #22401
Renall
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neutrino View Post
Are the events with Ange in 1998 considered to take place in "Rokkenjima Prime"? Is it confirmed?

Are there any theories on why Ange's scene on Rokkenjima, was changed from the game to the anime, with the supposedly resurrected Eva's gun exploding and Ange finishing her off? It didn't save time or soften the character, so it seems like Ryu07 deliberately changed it.
It's not confirmed which, if any Anges actually come from R-Prime. The scenes in ep8 might suggest an Ange in or very close to an R-Prime, however.

At least some of them cannot have come from R-Prime, and possibly none do.
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Old 2011-03-25, 16:23   Link #22402
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Someone can explain in detail all the Ep6/Erika/Beabato ending lines?

Put in spoiler anyway
Spoiler for ep6:
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Old 2011-03-25, 17:26   Link #22403
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Originally Posted by Swigun View Post
Someone can explain in detail all the Ep6/Erika/Beabato ending lines?

Put in spoiler anyway
Spoiler for ep6:
You can speak objective truths about both fictional worlds and the real one. For instance, Sherlock Holmes is a detective who lives in London, but on the other hand Sherlock Holmes doesn't exist. That's a contradiction if you try to make them apply to the same world, but there's no problem if they refer to different levels.

The cups and coins problem in EP6 kind of illustrates this. You have five coins and three cups, and you need to divide the coins up so that the cups have 1, 2, and 3 coins respectively. The trick is to take a cup with 1 coin and put it inside a cup with 2 coins:

[[o] oo] [oo]

Let's label that 1-coin cup "reality" and the 2-coin cup we put it in "mystery fiction". So now the reality cup still has 1 coin in it, but the fiction cup has 2 fictional coins and 1 real coin for a total of 3.

If we apply that idea to Rokkenjima, then we can name those 2 fictional coins "Kanon" and "Erika". On the fictional Rokkenjima, Erika just fills the hole left by Kinzo and becomes the 18th person. But on the real (or at least "less fictional") Rokkenjima, there's only 16 people to start with, so even if we magically added Erika in, the total would only come up to 17.

It might be worth pushing the metaphor a bit and saying that the remaining two coins represent Kinzo and Beatrice, the two major characters who weren't real even within the mystery fiction. There used to be a deeper "fantasy fiction" cup where they existed, but it's already been removed from the game board and set aside.
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Old 2011-03-25, 21:55   Link #22404
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Originally Posted by Swigun View Post
Someone can explain in detail all the Ep6/Erika/Beabato ending lines?
In case you asked this because you thought with EP8 this issue had been clarified, let me inform you that in fact EP8 doesn't explain a damn thing about that, and the theories and explanations you'll get will be no different from what you could get one year ago.


What LyricalAura said is just an interpretation, it isn't confirmed anywhere.
Another popular explanation is that Erika being the "18th human" is just a title.
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Old 2011-03-25, 22:09   Link #22405
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I don't see much of a difference between the title theory and the fiction theory LyricalAura demonstrated though. (great job writing that up BTW. Better than what I would have wrote) They essentially amount to the same thing when it comes to the 18th person red.

EDIT: Well maybe the other theory is a little more detailed...
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Old 2011-03-25, 23:13   Link #22406
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There is a big difference Judoh.

Lyrical's interpretation implies that Kanon exists in the fiction but not in reality, while I believe he doesn't exist not even in the fiction.
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Old 2011-03-26, 01:21   Link #22407
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
In case you asked this because you thought with EP8 this issue had been clarified, let me inform you that in fact EP8 doesn't explain a damn thing about that, and the theories and explanations you'll get will be no different from what you could get one year ago.


What LyricalAura said is just an interpretation, it isn't confirmed anywhere.
Another popular explanation is that Erika being the "18th human" is just a title.
Maybe Kinzo is counted as a (dead) "human", but not a "person".
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Old 2011-03-26, 03:18   Link #22408
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When Battler's memories return to Tohya, we see the flashbacks with different characters, that he remembers. Among those are both Shannon and Kanon on Rokkenjima.
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Old 2011-03-26, 03:55   Link #22409
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
In case you asked this because you thought with EP8 this issue had been clarified, let me inform you that in fact EP8 doesn't explain a damn thing about that, and the theories and explanations you'll get will be no different from what you could get one year ago.
Nah, I know.
It's simply a question that returned among my friends XD
Quote:
Originally Posted by neutrino View Post
Maybe Kinzo is counted as a (dead) "human", but not a "person".
16 + dead kinzo + dead Erika.
If BeaBato 'welcome' Erika, it's 17.

Something like this?
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Old 2011-03-26, 04:04   Link #22410
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My explanation is pretty much the same as LyricalAura's, I think. Fiction: Shannon + Kanon + Erika + rest = 18, Rokkenjima-Prime: Yasu + Erika + rest = 17.

I did some kind of a chart about the layered worlds of Umineko and some of the character's relations.
Spoiler for EP8 big image:

We could also place Golden Land somewhere, but it is also a bit hard to place. Maybe it is even higher than Ryukishi, as in real heaven? I suppose it's a fictional heaven at most, maybe placed around the same level as Kakeraverse. I think you can also swap the places of Rokkenjima Prime and Kakeraverse without doing much harm, maybe with some modification. Plus, Knox rules should affect the Forgeries as well, forgot it. I'm not sure with the relation of Featherine and "Battler-Tohya", but he's some kind of representative here.

We can, of course, debate Kanon's existence.

And to add to the debate of if we can confirm our answers... If it isn't possible to reach the one truth, we should look for the most likely truth. The problem is, many of the speculated answers are as likely as the others.
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Old 2011-03-26, 08:16   Link #22411
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That chart is debatable considering how Featherinne holds absolute power over Lambdadelta and Bernkastel, and in the end even Ange does.

Lambda and Bern should exist on a lower level than Rokkenjima Prime.

Also I believe that the Tohya Hachijo we see in EP6 and part of EP7 is just a metaphysical representation of the "author" known with that name, which in the metaworld takes the name of Featherinne.

Ikuko Hachijo might have the same look and might have a similar personality but she's definitely different. She isn't as much as arrogant and she doesn't use expressions like "child of man".


Quote:
16 + dead kinzo + dead Erika.
If BeaBato 'welcome' Erika, it's 17.

Something like this?
No, what LyricalAura said is that the last red truth "even if we welcome you it's 17" refers to Rokkenjima Prime, where Kanon doesn't exist and where Erika never reached Rokkenjima. Then what LyricalAura said is:

Quote:
even if we magically added Erika in, the total would only come up to 17.

I don't particularly like this explanations, because then BatBeato are acting like total assholes. As if Erika didn't know that the games are fictions, what's the point in bringing up a red truth from another layer of existence?

Now once I would have said: "it can't be because Ryuukishi wouldn't do something like that". But now I won't say that anymore, so this explanation is entirely possible, but I still maintain that it's incredibly lame to change the context of the red truths without any notice.
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Old 2011-03-26, 10:56   Link #22412
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I haven't actually read EP8, just random spoilers, so it is an EP7 impression chart. With that you could see why I haven't quite grasped it with Featherine, Ange, Bern and stuff. So I still have the impression that Ikuko is pretty much like EP6 while not that overboard.

I also find it odd how the EP6 final reds affect Erika in a fatal way at all, if the explanation I have to solve them is correct. Erika got it the wrong way, as something to erase her existence? Ryukishi could be just messing with the contexts as you said.
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Old 2011-03-26, 11:29   Link #22413
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Bluemail: Remember the end of Episode 4? Battler disappeared for a while when reds seemingly contradicted him.
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Old 2011-03-26, 11:40   Link #22414
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Erika was supposed to die before that final red, simply because she was shot by the bullet in that duel. Likewise Beatrice was supposed to die in case Erika won.

A direct denial of their existences isn't necessary, it's simply how that duel worked.
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Old 2011-03-26, 12:19   Link #22415
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Originally Posted by Bluemail View Post
My explanation is pretty much the same as LyricalAura's, I think. Fiction: Shannon + Kanon + Erika + rest = 18, Rokkenjima-Prime: Yasu + Erika + rest = 17.

I did some kind of a chart about the layered worlds of Umineko and some of the character's relations.
Spoiler for EP8 big image:
I just wanted to say that this chart is wonderful. I'd say this is a really good explanation of the Umineko universe.
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Old 2011-03-26, 12:59   Link #22416
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Erika was supposed to die before that final red, simply because she was shot by the bullet in that duel. Likewise Beatrice was supposed to die in case Erika won.

A direct denial of their existences isn't necessary, it's simply how that duel worked.
In fairness, there was the implication that Bern would've revived her for the sake of throwing her into the worst possible kakera, so I assume Erika wanted the honor of a badass death that would spare her from the fate her master had intended.
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Old 2011-03-26, 13:10   Link #22417
Swigun
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
No, what LyricalAura said is that the last red truth "even if we welcome you it's 17" refers to Rokkenjima Prime, where Kanon doesn't exist and where Erika never reached Rokkenjima.
Yes, I answered to neutrino XD
Quote:
I don't particularly like this explanations, because then BatBeato are acting like total assholes. As if Erika didn't know that the games are fictions, what's the point in bringing up a red truth from another layer of existence?
Same here ^^
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Old 2011-03-26, 13:12   Link #22418
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Originally Posted by Bluemail View Post
My explanation is pretty much the same as LyricalAura's, I think. Fiction: Shannon + Kanon + Erika + rest = 18, Rokkenjima-Prime: Yasu + Erika + rest = 17.

I did some kind of a chart about the layered worlds of Umineko and some of the character's relations.
Spoiler for EP8 big image:

We could also place Golden Land somewhere, but it is also a bit hard to place. Maybe it is even higher than Ryukishi, as in real heaven? I suppose it's a fictional heaven at most, maybe placed around the same level as Kakeraverse. I think you can also swap the places of Rokkenjima Prime and Kakeraverse without doing much harm, maybe with some modification. Plus, Knox rules should affect the Forgeries as well, forgot it. I'm not sure with the relation of Featherine and "Battler-Tohya", but he's some kind of representative here.

We can, of course, debate Kanon's existence.

And to add to the debate of if we can confirm our answers... If it isn't possible to reach the one truth, we should look for the most likely truth. The problem is, many of the speculated answers are as likely as the others.
I like this, though i'd prefer to place the gameboard on the same level of Rokkenjima-Prime. For me, ep VIII last Kakera can be a totally different Kakera from ep III-VI Ange Kakera. As Ange said in ep. VI, there were many other "her" looking for the truth.

Also, do you believe ep 1-7 really happened?
And is Featherine writing the stories, or it's more like she wrote them after she observed the games?
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Old 2011-03-26, 15:18   Link #22419
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I like this, though i'd prefer to place the gameboard on the same level of Rokkenjima-Prime. For me, ep VIII last Kakera can be a totally different Kakera from ep III-VI Ange Kakera. As Ange said in ep. VI, there were many other "her" looking for the truth.
There is no definitive proof that the "EP8 Kakera" is Rokkenjima Prime. Rokkenjima Prime is a title to refer to the original reality that is not being written about in-universe; the one that actually exists unambiguously.

Quote:
Also, do you believe ep 1-7 really happened?
And is Featherine writing the stories, or it's more like she wrote them after she observed the games?
If they did, then they're not as real as Rokkenjima Prime, otherwise there would be no such thing as The One Truth.
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Old 2011-03-26, 15:58   Link #22420
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If they did, then they're not as real as Rokkenjima Prime, otherwise there would be no such thing as The One Truth.
Well, they still Kakera with a future and everything, so i'd consider them real.

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