AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Umineko

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2011-03-27, 23:43   Link #22441
Kealym
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by neutrino View Post
Yes. Notice that in red , Beatrice says, There are no more than 18 people on this island but Before now, I have proclaimed that no more than 18 humans exist on this island.
It looks like in the original Japanese, "people (hito)" was used with the copula (da/desu), but "human (ningen)" uses the existence verb iru. Iru refers to self-animate things, so the humans referred to have to be living. In the duel, Erika tries a Hail Mary pass and tries to fix the number of people on Rokkenjima by using the Red Truth to establish herself as the 18th human. This would eliminate ShKannon and the Logic Error it produced. However, her sentence formulation used the copula, so she was the 18th human because Kinzo's corpse counted. BeaBato countered that even if she was welcomed (as a living person), the number of people would be 17, establishing ShKannon and winning the duel. Erika washed up on Rokkenjima in accordance with her statement about being the 18th human, but because she lost the duel, it was as a dead human. So there are 18 humans on Rokkenjima at this point in time, but only 16 people living there.

... well damn. There was always a dissonance between what defined a "person" and what defined a "human", but this solves the end of Beato-Erika's duel rather neatly.

In that case, the only thing that still bugs me to a significant degree is how Erika was able to see Shannon and Kanon at the same time. Whenever it's brought up, it gets settled with "Very little is narrated by Erika, so we don't KNOW what she sees."

But that doesn't satisfy me because:
a. Erika makes a big deal about the power of her Detetive's Authority, and follows Knox violently
b. Erika makes a big deal about knowing where every single suspect is, at any given point in time. She rarely lets people stray from where she can confirm them. LOL-TAPE.
c. She definitely seems aware of both the existence of both Shannon and Kanon, and the "number of people / humans" on the island.

Seeing things from an "author theory" standpoint (I think), I always imagined Erika represented either "the wrong type of reader", or possibly even the collective voice/criticism of the R-Prime readership, in the form of a Mary Sue detective. And by "represents the collective voice", I mean, the readership might be saying things like "A REAL detective would gather the suspects up, and seal the room with tape or something", so Erika sets herself to doing that sort of thing.

Of course, the readers arent writing the gameboard - so the author would, in my view, write Erika as a super-detective to address these criticisms. Where I'm going with that, is, even if "lol Shkanon" is the official solution, Erika might represent the type of readership who doesn't know the answer (a.k.a "Natsuhi is a child-murdering seductress!!"), so she literally DOES get to see Shannon and Kanon together, no problem.

Of course, that has the problem of making the "official" answer impossible for her to reach. Um ... ... I don't know.

The only other way I can solve it is, Ryukishi literally only meant her as a tool for us in the real world, and Piece-Erika just ... never ... looks at Shannon and Kanon at the same ... time ... or ... ... ... I don't know. This is one of the only things in Umineko I haven't come to some kind of resolution on. Thoughts?

Sorry if this is a dead horse topic.
Kealym is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-28, 07:14   Link #22442
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oblivion0101 View Post
Sorry I don't mean to interrupt but what happens at the end of episode 8? Can someone summarise it?
Sudden jump to 1998 at the time Ange was about to fall down from a 100 stories high skyscraper. But Ange isn't obsessed by her quest for the truth anymore, so instead of jumping down she makes a phone call to Okonogi where she tells him that she'll give him all the Ushiromiya assets in exchange for an annuity and a safe isolated place where she can live and pursue her new dream of becoming a writer.

Okonogi is well happy to help her and so Ange departs to her new life with Amakusa as her bodyguard.

Several decades later, Ange has become a famous writer with a series of books for children depicting the adventures of Sakutaro and his friends. She finally shows herself in public to receive a prize and that's where finally she learns that Hachijo has been trying to meet her for a long time through his/her editor.

Before the meeting she learns that Hachijo Touya is actually a pen name for two persons, one of which is Hachijo Touya and the other is Ikuko Touya.

The day of the meeting itself Ange instantly recognizes her brother in Touya. He is now aged and on a wheelchair and he has lost almost all of his past memories. Initially he was scared of those remnants memories so he refused to meet Ange several years before when she was the one trying to contact him. But then he changed his mind, however Ange couldn't be found anywhere for all that time.
So they discuss a bit of what happened, but Battler doesn't remember almost anything about those two days. He only knows how he was able to escape (through the underground tunnel that lead to the old military base).
It is implied that Battler and Ikuko are a couple although they never married.

So in the end nothing much changes, after meeting after all those years they go back to their separate lives.

Just one day on a 4 October Ange asks Battler and Ikuko to join her to the new fukuin orphanage which she revived to resemble the old Mansion of Rokkenjima and where all the children are taught "magic" to live happier lives.

Battler is surprised to see a perfect reconstruction of the Mansion's great hall and more importantly a perfect reproduction of Beatrice's portrait. So he experience a vision from the past where he's able to meet again all those who died in that incident and Beatrice herself.

THE END
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-28, 07:58   Link #22443
James Lame
ahaha.wav
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: The Cold Vein
So does this mean that all those stories about what happened on Rokkenjima, are in fact Battlers stories, which he wrote (with the help of Hachijo Touya) to help himself cope with his past?
What does that mean for the previous EPs, that they are also part of his family fan fic? I hope that I'm jumping the gun on this one.
And whats up with the ending, is anything interesting said in Battlers vision/acid trip?

Thanks for the write up Jan-Poo, tho I'm just more confused now.
James Lame is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-28, 08:14   Link #22444
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
The assumption is that 1-2 (the message bottles) came from "Beatrice," and 3 and on were written by Touya. Of course, there's some fuzziness there. For instance, the whole deal with "Reigonamu was a pen name I used before I started writing as Touya" came from Featherine's avatar character in ep6; was this also true of R-Prime? The answer seems most likely to be "yes, more than likely," and there's not much reason why it isn't, but he's left himself some wiggle room to potentially shake up who the true authors are in the end.

There are additional issues, like whether Meta-Battler is an elevated character or whether he's somehow representative of Battler-as-Touya's internal coping with the memories through fiction, or possibly both at different times. And which layers go where (Featherine having power over Lambda, yet at the end Lambda and Bern seem independent of the story world including R-Prime, etc.).
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-28, 12:20   Link #22445
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Not really Renall. The Tea Party starts with Featherinne where she has an internal monologue where she thinks about what to write next.

Soon after you see Bern, Lambda and Erika which then read a mail telling what happened to all the "dwellers of the illusion world", So I think it's implied that even that whole scene is something that Featherine wrote. So the ending still implies that she exists on a higher layer.

The problem is she's the kind of author that includes herself in her own story so it seemed that she existed on the same layer of Bern and Lambda.

Plus Featherine is most probably a meta-representation of Touya and Ikuko or even Ryuukishi himself.

So in other words it's all freaking confusing, because the various characters exist in many different layers at the same time and the metaphors represents many different things at the same time, and I'm not even sure that the layers are static.
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-28, 14:03   Link #22446
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
It's not a problem if Featherine is Ryukishi (although that has a lot of other curious issues I'd like to analyze about R07). It's somewhat of a problem if Featherine is Touya/Ikuko.
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-28, 14:23   Link #22447
AuraTwilight
The True Culprit
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Golden Land
Send a message via AIM to AuraTwilight Send a message via MSN to AuraTwilight
Fuckin' magic, how does it work? I think the fact that Ikuko's apparent lack of aging is commented on is a nice hint and/or mindscrew.
__________________
When the Silent Spirits Cry: An Umineko/Silent Hill crossover fanfiction
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4565173&postcount=531
AuraTwilight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-28, 14:45   Link #22448
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Well, the supernatural can exist in Umineko! ...just not on the game boards.

Doesn't mean it didn't exist elsewhere, right?
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-29, 01:07   Link #22449
Kylon99
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Meta-Meta-Meta-Space
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
It is implied that Battler and Ikuko are a couple although they never married.
What I want to know is, now that Ikuko and Featherine are somewhat disassociated, Ikuko doesn't seem that evil any more. So is it wrong of us to think of her in "that way" now? You know the dakimakura and sexy-swimsuit-figure way. (Although, even though Takano was evil she still got worshipped in that way...)

I mean just look at her:
Spoiler for Hachijou Ikuko:

:3

Ok, so that still says Hachijou Tooya...
Kylon99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-29, 13:15   Link #22450
AuraTwilight
The True Culprit
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Golden Land
Send a message via AIM to AuraTwilight Send a message via MSN to AuraTwilight
Was she ever really "evil" in the first place? You can't really compare her to Takano.

"Oh my god you wrote fanfictions, you EVIL BITCH!"
__________________
When the Silent Spirits Cry: An Umineko/Silent Hill crossover fanfiction
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4565173&postcount=531
AuraTwilight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-29, 15:26   Link #22451
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Which she wrote with the help and sanction of someone who was actually there. You conniving shrew!
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-29, 16:49   Link #22452
Chron
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
And you decided to mindscrew Ange all to hell in the midst of her delusions and searching for the truth of her families death you...er...YOU!!....I mean to say, you...! *breaks down*

Oh hell, god bless you, ma'am. Keep up the good work.
Chron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-29, 17:48   Link #22453
Oblivion
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Since episodes 1-7 were just stories written by Battler or Yasu, does this mean that the world of 1998 did not exist either or was it separate from all the stories?
Oblivion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-29, 18:02   Link #22454
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oblivion0101 View Post
Since episodes 1-7 were just stories written by Battler or Yasu, does this mean that the world of 1998 did not exist either or was it separate from all the stories?
The 1998 that appeared in ep4 and ep6 probably did not happen. Whether that means the 1998 and beyond that appeared in ep8 did, I'm not gonna touch right now.
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-29, 19:23   Link #22455
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
It's really not very clear. What it is certain is that the 1998 of EP8 and the one of EP4 are different. And actually EP8 itself shows two possible futures.

Including EP6 we then have four scenarios that while having all the same background differ for a few relevant particulars.

Are those alternate universes? Are those just fictions maybe with a single exception? Are those nothing else but what ifs and only the true ending must be considered canon?

Who knows...
__________________


Last edited by Jan-Poo; 2011-03-29 at 21:36.
Jan-Poo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-29, 21:30   Link #22456
AuraTwilight
The True Culprit
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Golden Land
Send a message via AIM to AuraTwilight Send a message via MSN to AuraTwilight
I'm gonna go with the hypothesis that the only thing that ever actually happened is Kinzo's war story. While giving birth Beatrice Castiglioni had a WEIRD AS FUCK fever dream and then died.
__________________
When the Silent Spirits Cry: An Umineko/Silent Hill crossover fanfiction
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4565173&postcount=531
AuraTwilight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-29, 23:50   Link #22457
neutrino
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
... well damn. There was always a dissonance between what defined a "person" and what defined a "human", but this solves the end of Beato-Erika's duel rather neatly.

In that case, the only thing that still bugs me to a significant degree is how Erika was able to see Shannon and Kanon at the same time. Whenever it's brought up, it gets settled with "Very little is narrated by Erika, so we don't KNOW what she sees."

But that doesn't satisfy me because:
a. Erika makes a big deal about the power of her Detetive's Authority, and follows Knox violently
b. Erika makes a big deal about knowing where every single suspect is, at any given point in time. She rarely lets people stray from where she can confirm them. LOL-TAPE.
c. She definitely seems aware of both the existence of both Shannon and Kanon, and the "number of people / humans" on the island.
I haven't seen the EP yet, but I guess it might be something like in EP1 where Shannon and Kanon are described going down a corridor with Gouda and Genji. In actuality, Shannon and Kanon are only present in Yasu's mind and Gouda doesn't see them, but you can't tell from Gouda's dialogue. Also, EP1 shows Kumasawa covering for Shannon. Since Erika had tunnel vision regarding her own theories, the other servants might have been able to provide alibis for Shannon and Kanon, eventually letting Erika make the logic error.
neutrino is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-30, 07:07   Link #22458
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Guys stop telling in the EP7 thread that the painter of Beatrice's portrait is Kumasawa when it's absolutely clear that it's impossible from what was revealed in EP8.

If that's a joke it doesn't look like one. Don't tell them bogus theories.
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-30, 13:22   Link #22459
AuraTwilight
The True Culprit
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Golden Land
Send a message via AIM to AuraTwilight Send a message via MSN to AuraTwilight
Remind me again what makes that impossible? I've read EP8 multiple times but don't remember why it's not a valid idea.
__________________
When the Silent Spirits Cry: An Umineko/Silent Hill crossover fanfiction
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4565173&postcount=531
AuraTwilight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-30, 17:21   Link #22460
Judoh
Mystery buff
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
Nobody stated that Kumasawa is the painter is a fact. I clearly stated such and such "is a theory". Besides it's a thread for discussing possibilities as of the information we have from episode 7. If you're mad about people doing what the thread clearly asks them to do that's your problem.
Judoh is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 17:46.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.