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Old 2011-03-30, 20:22   Link #22461
Ronove
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Wait. Unlike Higurashi, there is no miracle in which everyone can survive? That saddens me. Although, it was meant to be bittersweet.

However, if everyone did survive, they would all probably die fighting off the island then get arrested.

Other questions I would like to ask:
Regarding the 'solved mysteries', technically we can put anything we want in how the murders were done? I'm still skeptical on the room with Maria and the three dead bodies in EP1, and the Halloween Murder in EP2. Any ideas or clarifications?
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Old 2011-03-30, 22:10   Link #22462
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Remind me again what makes that impossible? I've read EP8 multiple times but don't remember why it's not a valid idea.
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Nobody stated that Kumasawa is the painter is a fact. I clearly stated such and such "is a theory". Besides it's a thread for discussing possibilities as of the information we have from episode 7. If you're mad about people doing what the thread clearly asks them to do that's your problem.

Quote:
右代宮金蔵が肖像画を描かせた職人が写真を持っていました。@それをもとに書き起こさせま した。」
The portrait was commissioned to an artist by Kinzo who was given a photograph to use as a model.

Ange retraced that artist who still had the photograph and made him redo the painting.

He was still alive after the incident!


and Judoh I think there is a moral issue in "pretending not to know what happens next". It's as if I posted theories on the EP1 thread talking about how Kinzo killed everyone.
When the people then will read the next part and when they'll realize that you knew the truth all along, they'll feel like you've been screwing around with them.
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Old 2011-03-31, 00:34   Link #22463
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronove View Post
Wait. Unlike Higurashi, there is no miracle in which everyone can survive? That saddens me. Although, it was meant to be bittersweet.
Even with kakera theory Umineko either lacks a Higurashi-style time loop, or the people who retain their memories (i.e. Shannon and Kanon) aren't proactive enough to do anything about it. That being said the ending of Episode 7 made me think Will would have put Lion in such a loop if Bern's cats hadn't gotten to them first.


On a different note, why do Kanon (and to a lesser extent Shannon) consider their feelings for Jessica and George to be wrong due their furniture status? The sisters of Purgatory don't seem to have any issues with Ronove telling them to give out Valentine's Chocolate, but if he told Shannon to do so, Kanon would no doubt lecture her on how they are just furniture and thus are unable to love.

Last edited by Frisko; 2011-03-31 at 00:36. Reason: grammar
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Old 2011-03-31, 01:12   Link #22464
AuraTwilight
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Quote:
The portrait was commissioned to an artist by Kinzo who was given a photograph to use as a model.

Ange retraced that artist who still had the photograph and made him redo the painting.

He was still alive after the incident!
I forgot that. For some reason I had it in my mind that Ange had a different artist produce it or something.

Still though, your original response was inappropriate. There's nothing wrong with steaming the flames of speculation for people who haven't finished reading, and it's not like anyone here was trying to push anything as facts. You really need to check your attitude and stop being a party-pooper all the time, it's getting annoying.

Quote:
and Judoh I think there is a moral issue in "pretending not to know what happens next". It's as if I posted theories on the EP1 thread talking about how Kinzo killed everyone.
When the people then will read the next part and when they'll realize that you knew the truth all along, they'll feel like you've been screwing around with them.
There's a marked difference between "Kinzo killed everyone" and "with the evidence given so far, it's possible that Kinzo killed everyone."

Quote:
On a different note, why do Kanon (and to a lesser extent Shannon) consider their feelings for Jessica and George to be wrong due their furniture status? The sisters of Purgatory don't seem to have any issues with Ronove telling them to give out Valentine's Chocolate, but if he told Shannon to do so, Kanon would no doubt lecture her on how they are just furniture and thus are unable to love.
The Sisters of Purgatory are fictional characters; Kanon and Shannon are two disguises worn by someone who has some sort of unspecified deformity or injury that she thinks makes her unqualified to love someone (she has no sex organs, she has a heart condition, she's sterile...we don't know).

Quote:
Even with kakera theory Umineko either lacks a Higurashi-style time loop, or the people who retain their memories (i.e. Shannon and Kanon) aren't proactive enough to do anything about it. That being said the ending of Episode 7 made me think Will would have put Lion in such a loop if Bern's cats hadn't gotten to them first.
A time loop would be magic, therefore there is no time loop.
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Old 2011-03-31, 02:03   Link #22465
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
The Sisters of Purgatory are fictional characters; Kanon and Shannon are two disguises worn by someone who has some sort of unspecified deformity or injury that she thinks makes her unqualified to love someone (she has no sex organs, she has a heart condition, she's sterile...we don't know).
Yasu created the concept of furniture and the Sisters of Purgatory, correct? So why don't the Sisters fit with the definition of furniture that Yasu created?

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
A time loop would be magic, therefore there is no time loop.
Their exists a non-magical way to time travel. I submit that the scene wherein Kanon and Shannon claim that one of them usually dies on the first twilight, as well as the various anachronisms are substantial evidence to satisfy Knox's 8th and counter Knox's 4th.
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Old 2011-03-31, 03:41   Link #22466
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
The portrait was commissioned to an artist by Kinzo who was given a photograph to use as a model.

Ange retraced that artist who still had the photograph and made him redo the painting.

He was still alive after the incident!

and Judoh I think there is a moral issue in "pretending not to know what happens next".
Well I wasn't pretending so it's not a moral issue. In the future it would be better to start by saying why a theory isn't possible instead of declaring it as so, and assuming I know what you're talking about.

Quote:
It's as if I posted theories on the EP1 thread talking about how Kinzo killed everyone.
When the people then will read the next part and when they'll realize that you knew the truth all along, they'll feel like you've been screwing around with them.
What I said was.

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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
There's a theory that Kumasawa painted it. But a truly good artist could paint it just by hearing a description. You don't necessarily need a model.
So how is that like you telling someone fake spoilers?

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Their exists a non-magical way to time travel. I submit that the scene wherein Kanon and Shannon claim that one of them usually dies on the first twilight, as well as the various anachronisms are substantial evidence to satisfy Knox's 8th and counter Knox's 4th.
Satisfying Knox's 8th doesn't counter Knox's 4th at all (not to mention Knox's 9th). Dlanor has outright denied the existence of drugs and teleportation devices 'For all ETERNITY" on the basis that they're "unknown" i.e that you can't explain what they are, and how they work, or that they would take too long to explain. You could even argue that she follows Clarke's third law.
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Old 2011-03-31, 06:59   Link #22467
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Well I wasn't pretending so it's not a moral issue. In the future it would be better to start by saying why a theory isn't possible instead of declaring it as so, and assuming I know what you're talking about.
If I assumed people don't know the story they'd bitch against me because I'm assuming their ignorance.

Anyway if you didn't know it's not your fault.
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Old 2011-03-31, 08:22   Link #22468
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Originally Posted by Frisko View Post
Even with kakera theory Umineko either lacks a Higurashi-style time loop, or the people who retain their memories (i.e. Shannon and Kanon) aren't proactive enough to do anything about it. That being said the ending of Episode 7 made me think Will would have put Lion in such a loop if Bern's cats hadn't gotten to them first.
There's a box, but there's no loop.

Basically Higurashi was a loop of events with effectively identical start and endpoints and the goal was to change things from the start to change the end to someone's satisfaction (in theory, any one of those endings is acceptable, in that any of them is possible).

Umineko presents us with one continuous timeline preceding October 4-5 1986, and stretching from October 6 1986, with a great big question mark over those two days. The timeline goes in, the timeline comes out; something happens within that period. What we see in the stories are not loops, but different conceptions of the events which chronologically follow one another in origin (hence the "ability" to remember previous episodes).

But there is no way to change the output. What happened happened. The people who survived will always emerge alive (regardless of what a story says about killing Eva, for example), the people who died are dead (regardless of whether a story ends with them alive). That's been suspected for a long time.

So yeah, no miracle. But there never really was one to begin with. That was basically Bern's manipulation, though she never outright claims such a miracle is possible. She sure as hell hints it though. The best "miracle" one can hope for is that, out of the incomplete information, something believed to be true is actually false. It was believed Battler died; he didn't, so that's a "miracle" of sorts. But no miracle exists that can make it so that Eva didn't survive.
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Old 2011-03-31, 08:49   Link #22469
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I agree with Renall about the nature of Umineko's "time loop". I love how Ryukishi used a different idea to build the Higurashi structure, which also feels more real than the Sea of Kakera.

One thing bugs me about people surviving, but it's no big thing probably. But when Beatrice accuses Battler of his sin in EP4, she actually gives a red saying "No one escapes, all die". It could be something like a truth affecting only the EP4 gameboard, but it feels more general.

Then other random tidbits Beatrice says during Battler's test.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beatrice
"Ahhaha, be at ease, there's no one here but you and me, see? Without the goat furniture, there are no demon butlers or Teacher, and the demon that's my close friend either. And, without the gold butterflies that help compose my flesh, there are no magic circles, and no summoners as witnesses!! ......Do you know what that means?"
I don't know if it's a translation thing, but this seems to imply something. Without the goat furniture, there's no Ronove, Virgilia or Gaap. Because there aren't goats, these people aren't there. Without gold butterflies that help compose Beatrice's flesh, there are no magic circles, and no summoners as witnesses. Same thing. Without gold butterflies. Should there be some kind of correlation to find? "Do you know what that means?" taunts me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beatrice
"That is correct!! You have been calling the squares where the gold butterflies exist 'the Illusion of the Witch', and without an observer, you have theorized that these were unrealistic and denies them, right...?"
This might be pointing out to the theory of scenes with gold butterflies being fake, maybe denying it in the sense that other scenes can be distorted as well? Of course I knew this already, but I'd like to know if there's any implication to a rule of some sort. Might contradict my earlier quote if this is trying to lessen the importance of gold butterflies. Magic can only be used when gold butterflies are present, or something like that?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beatrice
"Aaah, remind me of Kinzo in his younger days once more...!! That single time in my thousand year life! Remind me of that day I was taught the joy of being controlled, surrendering and being reduced to furniture!! Uhyaaahhyahhyahhyahhya!!"
This seems to directly refer to the moment Yasu develops the furniture complex. "The joy of being controlled". I think I heard a theory of Yasu's furniture complex also having something to do with the feeling of being someone else's puppet, being controlled without her own will. Everything going according to Kinzo's (Genji's?) plan of resurrecting Beatrice as Lion etc.
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Old 2011-03-31, 10:31   Link #22470
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Satisfying Knox's 8th doesn't counter Knox's 4th at all (not to mention Knox's 9th). Dlanor has outright denied the existence of drugs and teleportation devices 'For all ETERNITY" on the basis that they're "unknown" i.e that you can't explain what they are, and how they work, or that they would take too long to explain. You could even argue that she follows Clarke's third law.
Time machines aren't drugs or teleportation devices. Also, it has been shown that Knox's 8th can be used to counter Knox's 3rd. Therefore, I propose that it can be used to counter Knox's other rules as well. As for Knox's 9th, Ill admit that, for example, the scene in the second game wherein Jessica cosplays as Marisa could have been falsified, but Beatrice would still have to have knowledge of the future in order to make that claim.


Also, could someone explain how episodes 7's game board works without fantasy or science fiction elements?

Last edited by Frisko; 2011-03-31 at 11:06. Reason: adding more
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Old 2011-03-31, 12:32   Link #22471
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Originally Posted by Frisko View Post
Time machines aren't drugs or teleportation devices. Also, it has been shown that Knox's 8th can be used to counter Knox's 3rd. Therefore, I propose that it can be used to counter Knox's other rules as well. As for Knox's 9th, Ill admit that, for example, the scene in the second game wherein Jessica cosplays as Marisa could have been falsified, but Beatrice would still have to have knowledge of the future in order to make that claim.
Ryukishi does that. Higurashi has plenty of anachronisms and noone had to return from the future to obtain them.


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Also, could someone explain how episodes 7's game board works without fantasy or science fiction elements?
The actual gameboard is the tea party, isn't it? I don't see any problems.
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Old 2011-03-31, 12:48   Link #22472
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Quote:
Yasu created the concept of furniture and the Sisters of Purgatory, correct? So why don't the Sisters fit with the definition of furniture that Yasu created?
Furniture are furniture because they can't love. Yasu can't love because of her issues; the Sisters of Purgatory can't love because they're imaginary.

Quote:
Their exists a non-magical way to time travel. I submit that the scene wherein Kanon and Shannon claim that one of them usually dies on the first twilight, as well as the various anachronisms are substantial evidence to satisfy Knox's 8th and counter Knox's 4th.
Kanon and Shannon don't count for jack shit considering that in the same scene they use magical powers. They know things because they're self inserts of the author, not because of having special knowledge.

Quote:
One thing bugs me about people surviving, but it's no big thing probably. But when Beatrice accuses Battler of his sin in EP4, she actually gives a red saying "No one escapes, all die". It could be something like a truth affecting only the EP4 gameboard, but it feels more general.
The entire conversation has Beatrice using metaphor, to her credit. No one escaoes the ramifications of the incident whether they die or not, and because of his sin, all the people who don't survive die because of it.

Quote:
Time machines aren't drugs or teleportation devices. Also, it has been shown that Knox's 8th can be used to counter Knox's 3rd. Therefore, I propose that it can be used to counter Knox's other rules as well. As for Knox's 9th, Ill admit that, for example, the scene in the second game wherein Jessica cosplays as Marisa could have been falsified, but Beatrice would still have to have knowledge of the future in order to make that claim.
Basically, that Knox rule says that if the technology does not actually exist in 1986, you can't use it. To pull out a bullshit time machine deus ex machina, or a technological cloning machine so you can interrogate dead people, etc. is basically "Magic by a different name" and is thus cheating.

If you can't explain things without invoking supertechnology, you're not REASONING.

Quote:
Also, could someone explain how episodes 7's game board works without fantasy or science fiction elements?
The gameboard is probably the tea party, yea. As for how the church thing works: It's a fiction.
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Old 2011-03-31, 13:24   Link #22473
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Bern saying she "went further back" might suggest timeline manipulation, but it's easier if you just think of the church as Aura said: Fiction. What Bern's really saying is "I changed the premise."

The other stories were written from the implicit assumption of a "real world" foundation; that is, they're based on the premise of the family conference as people believe it actually happened in 1986 (at least up to the point where information is unavailable). The Lion story is a story of the October 1986 conference, yet based on a different premise: What would 1986 have been like if Natsuhi had accepted the baby? Changing that premise is "reaching outside the box" in the sense that all the other Rokkenjima stories only chose to alter what happens in their fictional stories after the October 4th information cutoff. Lion's world only exists by taking from a premise that isn't true.

I suspect this is part of why Bern can taunt Claire about this. Lion is a false hope in that his/her existence is escapism; no such world can actually exist outside of a fiction. Will's retort amounts to "Yeah, well so what? At least some version of this person has a great life, can't you leave that alone?"

Bern, naturally, can't, but she's an asshole.
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Old 2011-03-31, 13:58   Link #22474
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Bern saying she "went further back" might suggest timeline manipulation, but it's easier if you just think of the church as Aura said: Fiction. What Bern's really saying is "I changed the premise."
The way the church was set up allowed Lion to meet Shannon and Kanon, and didn't allow anyone to leave. Those are the elements that I would like explained. As for it being fiction, aren't all of the game boards fiction that Yasu and Battler made up? (I got the impression that the church stuff and the tea party were simply on two different game boards.)As far as I know the rest of them can be explained by mundane means without simply saying their works of fiction.
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Old 2011-03-31, 14:15   Link #22475
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You're right. But Bern is an asshole and has no respect for the story like Battler and Yasu do. She's an asshole.

The setup she gave Will wasn't meant to be real; it was just to put all the information in one place so he can investigate unobstructed; Lion and Yasu simultaneously exist, everyone else remembers both worlds, no one can leave the church, and no one questions Will's appearance. It's not meant to be real. If it helps, think of that whole "world" as Meta, like in EP5 when they had the court session and all the characters acted like wax dolls.

Bern's "realistic scenario" is the Tea Party. Isn't that enough for you?
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Old 2011-03-31, 15:07   Link #22476
Renall
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The way the church was set up allowed Lion to meet Shannon and Kanon, and didn't allow anyone to leave. Those are the elements that I would like explained. As for it being fiction, aren't all of the game boards fiction that Yasu and Battler made up? (I got the impression that the church stuff and the tea party were simply on two different game boards.)As far as I know the rest of them can be explained by mundane means without simply saying their works of fiction.
Yes, they're all fiction.

And in the Chapel Fiction of ep7, no one is allowed to leave, Will is allowed to be present, Kinzo is allowed to randomly be dead or alive, and Shannon and Kanon are allowed to be present as servants.

Why?

Because the author of the Chapel Fiction is not trying to make the story realistic. He/she/it is not obligated to. Rokkenjima Message Bottle Stories don't have to be mysteries. It's just that the "authentic" ones are. One could write a very dry and ordinary drama covering Oct. 4-5, ending in a tragic volcanic eruption. One could write a space opera epic where the mansion is converted into a starship and blasts off leaving a 1km crater, Battler fights space witches with a lightsaber, and Maria gets a cybernetic jaw. The only reason Knox doesn't allow those things in the stories we actually read is because they're trying to be mysteries and those things are not allowed in a mystery.
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Old 2011-03-31, 15:43   Link #22477
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I thought they can't, not because of knox, but because they are based on the real setting. Events that could have happened. That's why they can also be fragments, if you believe in meta.

Though, now i sorta want to read the space-opera one.



There is something that always bothered me, anyway


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You're right. But Bern is an asshole and has no respect for the story like Battler and Yasu do. She's an asshole.
It's this.

If Toya wrote Umineko, then why would he write fictions about the truth that he wanted to hide? Why did he make Beato and Lion suffering his stories? etc. If you think about it, unless meta exists, Battler is the true asshole.
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Old 2011-03-31, 16:07   Link #22478
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I thought they can't, not because of knox, but because they are based on the real setting. Events that could have happened. That's why they can also be fragments, if you believe in meta.
That's true of the authentic ones. Nobody can stop you from writing Seagull Wars, but no one will believe it contains any essence of the truth in it either. The mystery genre is an interesting way to convey truth while also remaining fiction, as mysteries are supposed to follow a particular ruleset.

At the same time, if one "understands the truth" as Featherine put it, one should be able to write any message bottle story at all and have it contain some comprehensible essence of that truth. Maybe not much of one, but something all the same.
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Old 2011-03-31, 16:55   Link #22479
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I thought they can't, not because of knox, but because they are based on the real setting. Events that could have happened. That's why they can also be fragments, if you believe in meta.
"Fragment" really just means "partial story" (or "partial world" from a meta perspective). You can think of the wider Umineko setting as being a big fragment with a Rokkenjima-Catbox-shaped hole in it, and the individual games are smaller fragments that have more or less the right shape to be plugged into that hole. There's no reason there can't be other weirdly-shaped fragments like Seagull Wars or Magical Girl Pretty Evatrice floating around, it's just that they won't fit in the hole.

That's pretty much what the main part of EP7 is. Bern grabbed a fragment containing Lion, which didn't fit in the hole, and sort of glued it to one that did. The resulting world isn't even internally consistent, but examining the inconsistencies revealed some things about the original cat box.

(Mashing fragments together in interesting and useful ways is something Bernkastel has a lot of experience with, if you buy that she's from Higurashi.)
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Old 2011-03-31, 17:17   Link #22480
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I think the whole thing is meant to be a "whydunnit" anyway. We don't have any alibi information for "whodunnit" (except via the why, obviously) and we don't have any information for "howdunnit".

So... therefore, if your story accurately reflects the characters involved, and the events that happened outside of those two days, then it's useful as containing "part of the truth", I guess.
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