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Old 2011-04-01, 14:21   Link #22501
neutrino
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
What bothers me the most is the whole thing about Ange and her "don't give up to the witch Onii-chan!" which makes absolutely no sense since for the real Ange in Rokkenjima Prime the fictional battle of his fictional brother against fictional riddles has absolutely no impact on her life and on her chance to see her real brother again.
If the Metaworld is Battler's attempt to make sense of his memories, "Ange" could be a manifestation of his guilt in not coming back and saving her from her hard life. (Looking at the EP8 summary, I really am hoping for a Rebuild of Umineko. Unlike Battler, the Rebuild Shinji comes back and tries to save his "sister". I don't think they were having sex in 2.0.) Possibly all the 1998 appearances of Ange could be Battler's fears of what might happen to her. Or the entire Metaworld can be in Ange's subconscious.
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Old 2011-04-01, 14:22   Link #22502
Judoh
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I don't see why this is being taken so seriously. Well I do have a thought to share. Lion is apparently a placeholder Bern created and placed on the board to serve a narrative purpose. So if she's the first person to think him up then she should know the probability of him being in other stories at the current time is extremely low without ever analyzing any of them.
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Old 2011-04-01, 14:24   Link #22503
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Your understanding is literally nonsense in the context of what Bernkastel can do (Superhuman knowledge? Uhhhh, yes, she has that), let alone your conclusion that it somehow creates a problem for a fiction theory in which facts can literally just be made up by an author in the first place. They could have written Bern's statement and Bern herself into the story, making the actual probability irrelevant. It simply doesn't cause the problem you're concerned about. There isn't any issue.

What else do you want me to say? You've stuck on something that reflects a fixation on something which simply cannot be interpreted the way you've presented it.
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Old 2011-04-01, 17:56   Link #22504
Jan-Poo
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In the story what Bern can do is to travel and watch many different "kakera" which according to the author theory are the various fictions written by humans in the real world.

What you suggested Renall is that Bern had a superhuman power to know the probabilities of an event in the real world.

Quote:
In other words, there was a chance that a real world could have existed in which Lion was accepted, and that chance was a certain probability which Bern has the power to estimate.
But where in the world you got this preposterous idea? As far as I know Bern has absolutely no knowledge of what actually happens in the real world, proof is she doesn't know what happened in Rokkenjima.


My point still stands. There are certain elements in the story of umineko that do not make any sense unless you adopt a many world interpretation.

So what's your counter? Bern was just made to say a bullshit sentence that doesn't even fit with her fictional powers?

Well I guess that works but it still qualifies as "stuff that doesn't make in sense" in my book. If that's so I can only interpret it as garbage put there by Ryuukishi to mess up with the readers.
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Old 2011-04-01, 18:30   Link #22505
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No, see, no one cares what you believe the rules of reality mean. Nevermind that you have absolutely no way to back it up. The story makes perfect sense as written, inasmuch as it can make sense at all.

Because this story is not set in "reality." It is set in Rokkenjima-Prime and associated fictional worlds. None of these worlds need to exactly conform to your philosophical belief how the world "must" behave. Your misunderstandings of probability and excessive determinism aside, the only person whose understanding of "reality" and its operation which matters is Ryukishi.

What you believe about whether chance exists is completely irrelevant. What matters is whether Ryukishi believes chance exists (he does), whether he believes it can influence the outcome of events (he does), and whether this applies in stories that he writes (it does). You have absolutely no argument here.
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Old 2011-04-01, 18:35   Link #22506
Judoh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
In the story what Bern can do is to travel and watch many different "kakera" which according to the author theory are the various fictions written by humans in the real world.

What you suggested Renall is that Bern had a superhuman power to know the probabilities of an event in the real world.
I can see why you cut out this part:

Quote:
However, that doesn't make the Lion story any less fanciful fiction.


Because you're deliberately invoking a strawman argument. You know that what he's actually saying is that she represents this in a level of fiction. And her job as Kakera explorer has been consistently mentioned in other episodes.

Quote:
My point still stands. There are certain elements in the story of umineko that do not make any sense unless you adopt a many world interpretation.
Did you actually expect a voyager whose existence depends on her identity as a nomad traveling through the sea of Kakera to acknowledge that she simply created a fictional story? She's inside a world that depends on beleiving in fantasy elements to exist. Of course she's not going to beleive that. Doing so would destroy her. That's why in episode 6 we have Ange and Hachijou telling us about the forgeries instead Featherine.

This doesn't require a many worlds interpretation it just requires a certain level of suspension of disbelief when you see the fantasy elements. While also understanding that they're not necessarily true. It's no different from the illusion of the witch being involved in the murders for Bern to imply this. This is not a serious issue. I don't see how you can seriously consider it to be such a huge contradiction when denying implications like this has been a theme in every story preceding episode 7.

Last edited by Judoh; 2011-04-02 at 00:42.
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Old 2011-04-02, 14:52   Link #22507
unsuspectingvisitor
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hey guys ,let's change the topic here it's gong nowhere.
anyways,I have an idea ,let's put together all the clues that we know about rokkenjima and create an satisfying episode.this is whAt I think ryukishin want us to do since higurashi right?
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Old 2011-04-02, 16:56   Link #22508
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Originally Posted by unsuspectingvisitor View Post
hey guys ,let's change the topic here it's gong nowhere.
anyways,I have an idea ,let's put together all the clues that we know about rokkenjima and create an satisfying episode.this is whAt I think ryukishin want us to do since higurashi right?
Actually, I was going to propose a fan-based Episode at some point myself (or try to write one alone). I'd like to read EP8 with full understanding before doing anything like that though, but as it is brought up now, then why not. It's not an easy thing to do, because of the amount of clues, hints, foreshadowing and red herrings, and there are a number of varying theories that might lead people with different interpretations to conflict. A branching plot might be a solution. And some people might not think Umineko as something worthy of doing this for. It is certainly something Ryukishi would like us to do (we like it or not). We, however, do not know what Umineko Rei will contain. It might actually contain answers. But a fangame couldn't possibly become the exact same thing, right?

We should probably use ONScripter to make it, so it would have the feeling of the original work. Some people here have experience with it (I'm trying to learn it too). I don't think using the PS3 graphics would be allowed, so we'd use the original or custom ones.

The writing is the biggest problem, of course. Either we decide on a truth, make it a bit vague or make a branching story. There should be a coherent narrative in every case, that ties together the clues, reasoning and answers. Some kind of Meta-trial like in EP5 would be awesome. If the plot was to branch in multiple directions, what are the choices based on? Maybe a detective (Will, Erika, another Golden Age reference, original character?) investigating scenes and talking to the people involved, and giving choices about the interpretation of the events? The choices could be based on how different people took on Umineko, leading to the most natural conclusion for a certain reader. Well that is kind of like how I hoped EP8 would turn out to be when I heard about it having choices. Not that I wanted it to have multiple contradicting answers, but that it would somehow reconstruct the real events if the choices were answered right. There is a lot to think about. A plain retelling of "Rokkenjima-Prime" wouldn't be exiting, I think.

That's probably not all I had in mind, but I'll add some name proposals in the end.

Umineko no Naku Koro ni -?-: Solution Kai, Reconstruction
When They Cry -?-: EX, +, 4+, 4
Episode -?-: 0, X, Y, Z, 9, ∞, 8 (alternative final arc like Miotsukushi was to Matsuribayashi, might not fit well with EP7 ????)
Episode Titles:
Redemption of the golden witch (Epitaph Game, Beatrice not a killer -theory)
Trial of the golden witch / Trial of the black witch
Heart of the golden witch

We could use 'black witch' in the end too, because of the culprit of Rokkenjima-Prime, maybe something like Banquet of the black witch.
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Last edited by Bluemail; 2011-04-03 at 05:10.
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Old 2011-04-02, 17:25   Link #22509
UsagiTenpura
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Really about the probability this didn't need to go that far.

To take the example that is used in Umineko directly itself (tho never properly used): "catbox" idea.

By the very logic of the "experiment" the cat is "either dead or alive" and not "will die or will remain alive". Yet the probability still remains the same that it's dead or alive.

By definition, since this is the idea that most of Umineko is built on, if you disagree with this then you disagree with 100% of Umineko.
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Old 2011-04-02, 22:20   Link #22510
neutrino
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Was she ever really "evil" in the first place? You can't really compare her to Takano.

"Oh my god you wrote fanfictions, you EVIL BITCH!"
The one EP3 was based on helped make Eva the "Queen of Suspicion", arguably hastening her death from the stress of being accused of the mureders of her husband and son.
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Old 2011-04-03, 01:31   Link #22511
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Well, no, everyone thought that ALREADY because she was the only person who came back alive and she was using harsh means to prosper in the business world by crushing other companies. EP3 was written in response to this, not the cause.
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Old 2011-04-03, 21:02   Link #22512
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Well, no, everyone thought that ALREADY because she was the only person who came back alive and she was using harsh means to prosper in the business world by crushing other companies. EP3 was written in response to this, not the cause.
Though the "Eva is the culprit" became largely more accepted by the public after Banquet had been written, I believe. While not the initial cause, it is what caused most of the theory's fame.
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Old 2011-04-03, 23:04   Link #22513
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What I find awesome is that the discussion about how people reacted in the future very neatly parallels what happened in the community following the series when EP3 was released. That's pretty cool.
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Old 2011-04-04, 08:11   Link #22514
Renall
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At the same time, a lot of people (rightly) believed that her advancement as a culprit as early as ep3 was a sure sign she couldn't have done it. Unfortunately, Eva-culprit is one of only a handful of working ep3 theories and obviously the most prominent due to ep3 itself suggesting it. The fiction theory had not gained enough grounding at the time to suggest something like "Even if Eva did do it in the ep3 story, she didn't do it in reality," even though the foundation was there and even used in the anti-Eva arguments ("she can't be the culprit, she couldn't do ep1 and 2" etc.).
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Old 2011-04-04, 12:24   Link #22515
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I've yet to find an anime-only fan that doesn't think Eva is the culprit.
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Old 2011-04-04, 16:31   Link #22516
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
It's not confirmed which, if any Anges actually come from R-Prime. The scenes in ep8 might suggest an Ange in or very close to an R-Prime, however.

At least some of them cannot have come from R-Prime, and possibly none do.
Which of the Anges in EP8? Both or just the one in the ??? ending? If the Ange in EP4 and EP6 is made up, who made those scenarios up, and how did he/she know some of the details in EP8, like the skyscraper jump? Is the Ange in the Metaworld the same as the 1998 Ange in EP4? If so, and the 1998 EP4 has been changed to no longer exist, is there a time paradox since no one is there to save meta-Battler?

The only explanation I can think of is the entire Metaworld and 1998 worlds are all in Battler's head, or in Ange's, either the the R-Prime one or the ??? one (if there's a difference).

About the change from the VN to the anime in Alliance, with the death of "Eva": I realized the anime simplifies it by removing one char. In the VN, "Eva" is shot by someone who then apparently kills Ange. In the anime, "Eva" dies after her gun blows up and is finished off by Ange. Possibly Ryu07 was anticipating a continuation of the anime and wanted it streamlined. So the question is, who was "Eva" really, and who killed her in the VN?
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Old 2011-04-04, 16:56   Link #22517
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
I've yet to find an anime-only fan that doesn't think Eva is the culprit.
I had basically only seen the anime when I saw Banquet, and I didn't think she was.
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Old 2011-04-05, 02:38   Link #22518
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Which of the Anges in EP8? Both or just the one in the ??? ending? If the Ange in EP4 and EP6 is made up, who made those scenarios up, and how did he/she know some of the details in EP8, like the skyscraper jump? Is the Ange in the Metaworld the same as the 1998 Ange in EP4? If so, and the 1998 EP4 has been changed to no longer exist, is there a time paradox since no one is there to save meta-Battler?

The only explanation I can think of is the entire Metaworld and 1998 worlds are all in Battler's head, or in Ange's, either the the R-Prime one or the ??? one (if there's a difference).
Ange of EP4 seems to be contained in the actual writings of one of Hachijou's forgeries, and the same apparently goes for her EP6 iteration. If you think the Meta-World is also in the narratives, there you go.

I assume that the Meta-World actually exists as a higher plane of existence, however, so the memories of Meta-Ange could've been integrated with the Ange of Rokkenjima-Prime. Because why not?

Also it's cute how you think the Meta-World gives a shit about time and space. It clearly doesn't.

Quote:
About the change from the VN to the anime in Alliance, with the death of "Eva": I realized the anime simplifies it by removing one char. In the VN, "Eva" is shot by someone who then apparently kills Ange. In the anime, "Eva" dies after her gun blows up and is finished off by Ange. Possibly Ryu07 was anticipating a continuation of the anime and wanted it streamlined. So the question is, who was "Eva" really, and who killed her in the VN?
Er, her gun blows up in the VN too. Either way she's clearly a figment of Ange's imagination.
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Old 2011-04-05, 06:14   Link #22519
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Spoiler for Bluemail quote, spoilered for length:


A fan made episode is a good idea to a certain extent. My own interpretation is that once a truth is shut up inside a catbox, it becomes fiction. What this means is that the story is fiction and truth at the same time i.e. a world where fiction and truth coexist. If you were going to write such a story, you would need other people to help you with the interpretation of the in-universe knox rules.

e.g. It is not allowed for someone to dress as another without any clues

Does this mean any scenes where Beatrice appears are
(1) Real?
(2) Completely false?
(3) Do not happen in exactly the way they are shown?

I wanted to actually try something like this by posting selected interpretations and maybe including polls, and then rereading EPs 1-4 under chosen interpretations.
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Old 2011-04-05, 08:15   Link #22520
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For Beatrice, at least in ep1-4, the rumors of a witch and the portrait are probably good enough to satisfy the disguise rule. Plenty of classic mysteries were set up with an apparent whispering of the supernatural hinted at by various pieces of "evidence" of its existence, only for the detective to turn that evidence around and use it to ferret out the real criminal.
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