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Old 2011-04-08, 00:19   Link #22561
Jan-Poo
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If you find a flaw in a witness's testimony, that's not a "plot hole", it's a clue that the witness is lying.
Or maybe not. This is what I was pointed out earlier, since we don't know what's the truth you could see this however you like.

If you like to think that the apparent incosistencies or holes in the story are what he planned and he does have an explanation then it's all good I guess... but you can't know for sure.

However I prefer to think that in doubt it's better to assume the author made a blunder. Else any idiot could write an half assed story and then claim he can explain everything and everything makes perfect sense, but he won't tell because it's part of his "narrative objective".
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Old 2011-04-08, 02:25   Link #22562
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Or maybe not. This is what I was pointed out earlier, since we don't know what's the truth you could see this however you like.

If you like to think that the apparent incosistencies or holes in the story are what he planned and he does have an explanation then it's all good I guess... but you can't know for sure.

However I prefer to think that in doubt it's better to assume the author made a blunder. Else any idiot could write an half assed story and then claim he can explain everything and everything makes perfect sense, but he won't tell because it's part of his "narrative objective".
No, I understand what you're saying. The thing is, there's a difference between an honestly ambiguous point and one where the author deliberately draws attention to the inconsistency. It's hard to write something off as a blunder when presenting it required the author to expend additional narrative effort to no other apparent purpose.

That text in Kinzo's story and the EP7 tea party didn't come from nowhere. If you want to claim that undermining the credibility of the bomb theory was a mistake, then what other narrative objective was Ryukishi trying to accomplish with that new explanation that couldn't be reached with just the Kaiten warheads?
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Old 2011-04-08, 06:00   Link #22563
neutrino
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Of course, the question is where those records were kept. If he had copies at the family clinic, as any responsible doctor would, his son ought to be able to go find them and notice if anything is wrong. Unfortunately, Nanjo wasn't a responsible doctor, so who knows if he even bothered to write down anything with respect to Kinzo's treatment?

But if there is anything on file, it ought to still be at the Nanjo Clinic. There's no particularly good reason for it not to be if it exists.
I got the impression that Nanjo was a good doctor, just pressured and possibly bribed (to get money for his grandson) to go along with the plot. EP1 has Genji talking about making sure he goes along.


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@Nanjo Records: Yea, Nanjo apparently took them with him. Even if they did survive, though, he'd probably have FAKED treatments and such. I mean, who's gonna contradict him if someone snoops?
You know, it's actually quite strange. It's not like anyone on the island was going to demand to see Kinzo's charts, so why did he feel the need to bring them along? I guess he could have faked some up and planned to deliberately show them to the siblings, but there was no indication of that in any of the games that I can think of.
There's no reason to keep them at the patient's residence, esp. since Nanjo would have needed them for his own paperwork. It was almost certainly to cover up the fact that they didn't exist after Kinzo's death. It takes a lot of effort to continually fake data from non-existent medical exams. It can also be detected by analyzing the data patterns. Nanjo seemed to be a reluctant conspirator who wouldn't have gone that far. Unless Kinzo was a strictly private patient who kept Nanjo on a retainer and Krauss continued it, there might be evidence in Nanjo's billing records, malpractice insurance, reports to the Japanese version of Medicare, income tax, etc. There's also pharmacy records. Dying old people require a lot of meds, and unless Nanjo kept writing prescriptions to a dead man, the pharmacy would have recorded a cessation in getting them filled.

Doctors actually do give diagnoses like Kinzo's. The Lockerbie bomber was released because he supposedly only had three months to live. (Unfortunately, it was wrong.)
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Old 2011-04-08, 20:33   Link #22564
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Define these plotholes. An oversight or an unelaborated point is not a plothole.
I consider any information left out of a story regarding that story's plot, a plot hole. To be even more specific, any info that can help the story make better sense. Such as Shkanon, so far Shkanon just seems to be nothing more than a strong implication, but when will the confirmation that doubters like me need come? Its been eight episodes, each containing problems than can be solved with Shkanon and other solutions, and each containing a hint towards it yet no real confirmation saying "These two are the same people." Instead, they keep saying "They have a connection with each other." Why is it a plothole? Because Shannon and Kanon's relationship is a big part of the mystery, if not the core.
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Old 2011-04-08, 21:19   Link #22565
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Such as Shkanon, so far Shkanon just seems to be nothing more than a strong implication, but when will the confirmation that doubters like me need come?
Never. Ryukishi said more than once that he wasn't going to do a "the answer is X kind of thing like in Higurashi". I don't think he ever intended to give a straight confirmation.
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Old 2011-04-08, 21:21   Link #22566
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They were probably never confirmed to be the same person because... well, in a sense they aren't. They're kindof two alternate personalities/ imaginary friends/ idealised images of the same person if you look at ep7.
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Old 2011-04-08, 21:40   Link #22567
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Never. Ryukishi said more than once that he wasn't going to do a "the answer is X kind of thing like in Higurashi". I don't think he ever intended to give a straight confirmation.
But Shkanon isn't the answer. It's not even an answer. Explaining exactly how it works would prove nothing except how plausible or implausible the implementation actually was.
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Old 2011-04-09, 03:03   Link #22568
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Speaking of narrative coincidences, I just noticed this bit from the card game in EP8.

George: "Uwah. So it wasn't a bluff...!"
Jessica: "Man, and I was sure that whenever he puffed up like that, it almost always meant he had a crap hand...!"
Battler: "I lost all those times before now because I wanted you to think that, you know? The man who sets up losses in order to win at the end, Ushiromiya Battler! Ihihihi!"

And that's all the confession you're going to get for the logic error in EP6.
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Old 2011-04-09, 07:41   Link #22569
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Since he went out of his way to construct a second, less likely source for them, and that source came from a narrative that is known to be false, doesn't that actually suggest that the information mismatch is exactly what he intended?

If you find a flaw in a witness's testimony, that's not a "plot hole", it's a clue that the witness is lying.
This is exactly what Chiru is, showing how NOT to think

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And that's all the confession you're going to get for the logic error in EP6.
But it doesn't explain the narrative showing us Battler desperately trying to get out, which is aimed at the reader, and it would all come to nothing if he was bluffing. I'd like to think he was, but either we are to regard the part as an extract from Touya's book with an unreliable narrator - which I don't like - or Ryuzaki just didn't find a better way to get us hooked up and excited, which would be sad. Anyway, I want to believe in genious Battler, but I actually I don't, as it would make Ryukishi's storytelling less enjoyable to me.
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Old 2011-04-09, 10:01   Link #22570
Renall
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But it doesn't explain the narrative showing us Battler desperately trying to get out, which is aimed at the reader, and it would all come to nothing if he was bluffing.
Given that some meta-characters have been able to see the narrative before, why is it just assumed that only the reader can see this? You would be right that, were this on the board itself and we were peeking into a character's thoughts, it would make no sense and be poor writing for them to think in narrative exactly the opposite of their actual thoughts. But the Logic Error narration sequence gives us no clear indication of such a restriction, and in fact the apparent ability of Bern/Lambda to actually enter the Logic Error at least suggests heavily that they can also observe what goes on in there. If the Logic Error is styled as a chopped-off inescapable piece of the narrative itself, to fool anyone at all it would be necessary not just to act like one is really trapped, but to narrate like it too.

That said it's strictly implicit. Yet Battler makes 2-3 direct references to his willingness to gamble heavily on a major risk in ep6 alone. Have we forgotten how he can have bursts of brilliance in between apparent droughts of incompetence? That's part of what makes his behavior surprising. It's hardly out of character.
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Old 2011-04-09, 12:31   Link #22571
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I consider any information left out of a story regarding that story's plot, a plot hole. To be even more specific, any info that can help the story make better sense. Such as Shkanon, so far Shkanon just seems to be nothing more than a strong implication, but when will the confirmation that doubters like me need come? Its been eight episodes, each containing problems than can be solved with Shkanon and other solutions, and each containing a hint towards it yet no real confirmation saying "These two are the same people." Instead, they keep saying "They have a connection with each other." Why is it a plothole? Because Shannon and Kanon's relationship is a big part of the mystery, if not the core.
If implicit points exist in a novel without being confirmed without a doubt counts as a plothole to you, stay the fuck away from literature as a whole.
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Old 2011-04-10, 18:27   Link #22572
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It's practically forced on you in some places, but I don't buy Shkannontrice for a number of reasons. That's not to say it's definitely not the intended meaning, sadly it looks like it is, but it still doesn't work and I don't think it was the original intention.

Nothing concrete is ever said in Episode 7. It does seem to apply at times Shannon and Beatrice are the same person. Kanon is barely touched on. I think there's a reason for this though.

Kanon is barely a character in Episode 7, however Shannon gets a lot of attention. I think this is simply because Kanon is Yasu, but Shannon is not. However, Shannon and Kanon have some kind of Mion/Shion thing going on. Shannon, and possibly other servants are illegitimate or undocumented children/grandchildren of Kinzo, which explains the resemblance between Shannon Kanon, since they have a lot of the same genes, there's a good chance they'll look similar. Or, there could just have been two babies to begin with, and one one was given to Natsuhi. There's not much to go on here.

Several times in Ep.7 Yasu and Shannon are addressed by a third party together by the other maids. "Do you believe in that too, Shannon-chan?" etc.

Yasu and Kanon's mannerisms are much more similar, they're much more shy and reserved. Shannon and Yasu just don't seem all that alike at all, aside from Shannon inheriting Yasu's love of mystery novels.

I think what explains a lot of the episode is that it's Beatrice/Yasu's account of what happened. At the end when Clair is torn apart, we see some twisted memories suggesting we didn't quite see the whole truth.

I believe all the scenes we see in Shannon's room are fabricated. People have been saying they're the same person - that's why people commented on them having a single room, etc. This causes a lot of confusion with what happened, and possibly even causes "Shannon" and Yasu's memories to be muddled, as the Shannon we see in certain scenes is imagined - just like for example Kinzo in the fantasy scenes; but there is still a real Kinzo.

Shkannontrice defies one of the rules we're given; that it takes two people to create a universe. Therefore, Shannon could not have created the universe with her, Gaap, Beatrice and the rest by herself. She could have had "Furniture"/Imaginary friends like Maria and Sakutarou, but nothing on the level of what she had, or else there was no meaning to saying that.

"Gaap" was kind of like Maria's Sakutarou, she was her imagined character but it was only when we see Shannon and Beatrice meaning that we actually get a collection of characters acting in an imagined world(the Golden Land). The Golden Land does not exist prior to this, and according to the rule we're given, cannot.

Beatrice says she'll give Shannon a little brother, and Kanon turns up. The old theory suggests she spawns a new personality, or a new "friend". However look at it another way- Beatrice dresses up as Kanon so she can be a servant on the island and get close to Shannon.

This theory just solves so many problems. The only weird thing is the love duel from Episode 6, which could be solved another way - only one person can survive and get the headship, so only one of those couples can happen anyway, they each share a soul as only one lives, but it's not determined which. Also, giving Beato Shannon's love - but that's just a rehash of the Mion/Shion storyline.
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Old 2011-04-10, 19:02   Link #22573
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Kanon is barely a character in Episode 7, however Shannon gets a lot of attention. I think this is simply because Kanon is Yasu, but Shannon is not. However, Shannon and Kanon have some kind of Mion/Shion thing going on. Shannon, and possibly other servants are illegitimate or undocumented children/grandchildren of Kinzo, which explains the resemblance between Shannon Kanon, since they have a lot of the same genes, there's a good chance they'll look similar. Or, there could just have been two babies to begin with, and one one was given to Natsuhi. There's not much to go on here.
That's really not possible, or else you'll have to explain why all the other servants were complaining about room arrangements, and why Shannon is just suddenly living by herself. Between being Yasu and being Kanon, where the hell did she GO? Did she just run around the mansion without being seen by ANYONE, somehow getting enough to eat and stuff without anyone noticing, and then just...became Kanon and started collecting a paycheck? How was she able to make Shannon go along with this?

Quote:
Several times in Ep.7 Yasu and Shannon are addressed by a third party together by the other maids. "Do you believe in that too, Shannon-chan?" etc.
If her name is Sayo Yasuda, then Yasu is Shannon. No one actually addresses the "Shannon" that Yasu treats as her BFF. She's just sort of there, and she apparently never ages, has no bed of her own, and apparently Yasu can control her goddamn thoughts.

Quote:
Yasu and Kanon's mannerisms are much more similar, they're much more shy and reserved. Shannon and Yasu just don't seem all that alike at all, aside from Shannon inheriting Yasu's love of mystery novels.
And both being clumsy...and both loving Battler...and both having no friends and resorting to fantasy escapism. Also, they talk to each other in Shannon's dreams. Is Yasu a telepath, or are they the same person?

Quote:
I believe all the scenes we see in Shannon's room are fabricated. People have been saying they're the same person - that's why people commented on them having a single room, etc. This causes a lot of confusion with what happened, and possibly even causes "Shannon" and Yasu's memories to be muddled, as the Shannon we see in certain scenes is imagined - just like for example Kinzo in the fantasy scenes; but there is still a real Kinzo.
It's Yasu confessing the truth as she remembers it. She may embellish with magical scenes, but if we're gonna say stuff like "Oh, Shannon and Yasu only shared a room because of MUDDLED MEMORIES", then why listen to ANY of this testimony? It's no different than saying "none of this matters since it's not in red."

Quote:
Shkannontrice defies one of the rules we're given; that it takes two people to create a universe. Therefore, Shannon could not have created the universe with her, Gaap, Beatrice and the rest by herself. She could have had "Furniture"/Imaginary friends like Maria and Sakutarou, but nothing on the level of what she had, or else there was no meaning to saying that.
You are VASTLY misunderstanding what that rule actually means. Maria made up all of her imaginary friends, rules, and concepts all by herself. What she needed a SECOND PERSON for was someone to observe and validate it; the same goes for Yasu. She has a complete fictional universe within her mind. But she dresses up as her characters and pretends to be a witch to get people to believe it exists, and thus validate the existence of her Beatrice character. Running with this, there's absolutely no violation with this Yasu character dressing up as both Shannon and Kanon and getting everyone involved to believe both characters are real people.

Quote:
"Gaap" was kind of like Maria's Sakutarou, she was her imagined character but it was only when we see Shannon and Beatrice meaning that we actually get a collection of characters acting in an imagined world(the Golden Land). The Golden Land does not exist prior to this, and according to the rule we're given, cannot.
You ignore everything else said in the episode. Like how a universe without a second person is just a daydream or delusion (Shannon speaks to Beatrice in a dream...hmmmmm), and he describes that the "chick Beatrice" was in an egg until it appeared before Maria, and that Mariage Sorciere was a "nest" to mutually nurture both their worlds.

Quote:
Beatrice says she'll give Shannon a little brother, and Kanon turns up. The old theory suggests she spawns a new personality, or a new "friend". However look at it another way- Beatrice dresses up as Kanon so she can be a servant on the island and get close to Shannon.
And this Beatrice-who-is-not-Shannon...uh...spoke to her in her dream? And somehow magically took the love-for-Battler from her soul? Somehow? How the hell does that work?

Come on, man, you can try and argue that Shannon and Kanon are different, but you can't argue that Shannon and Beatrice are different. You seriously just can't, it's impossible.

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This theory just solves so many problems. The only weird thing is the love duel from Episode 6, which could be solved another way - only one person can survive and get the headship, so only one of those couples can happen anyway, they each share a soul as only one lives, but it's not determined which. Also, giving Beato Shannon's love - but that's just a rehash of the Mion/Shion storyline.
How the hell does that work? George doesn't care about the headship and only wants to form his own corporate empire, and that's irrelevant to love anyway. What the hell's Jessica gonna do? "Oops, sorry, Kanon, but I'm not gonna be the head of the family, so fuck you, the romance is off"? Because the headship was so important to Jessica.

Honestly, I don't think you thought this through at all.
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Old 2011-04-10, 19:03   Link #22574
Judoh
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Kanon is barely a character in Episode 7, however Shannon gets a lot of attention.
Kanon is a CHARACTER!? No rly. Kanon did absolutely nothing. Besides for a few of his moments in a couple episodes. At the same time he did such an awesome job at doing absolutely nothing that I wanted him to do something (more), which makes me sad ;_;.

No wonder he got so much love in the poll...

Reading this theory also made me think that Kanon and Shannon could possibly act as sort of a metaphor for Yasu/Beato's constant mental battle between cynicism and idealism, illustrating her indecisiveness to take action. Kanon would be the cynic and Shannon would be the dreamer idealist. and Beato is Beato.

You won me over with Kanon fanon, and now look at me rambling on and on. What a low blow.
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Old 2011-04-10, 19:45   Link #22575
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
That's really not possible, or else you'll have to explain why all the other servants were complaining about room arrangements, and why Shannon is just suddenly living by herself. Between being Yasu and being Kanon, where the hell did she GO? Did she just run around the mansion without being seen by ANYONE, somehow getting enough to eat and stuff without anyone noticing, and then just...became Kanon and started collecting a paycheck? How was she able to make Shannon go along with this?
There's a similar set of problems with Shkannontrice.

And it's not true that she wasn't seen by anyone - after all there were plenty of sightings of Beatrice around the mansion. It's a big enough island, too, there may even be other random hidden buildings beside Kuwadorian, or she could have been taken off the island.

What's of note to me is that it's mentioned Yasu was quite ill when younger, but this seems forgotten later on in the story. I think it's likely her illness was tied with her disappearance(or her sudden change to Shannon, or whatever).

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If her name is Sayo Yasuda, then Yasu is Shannon.
Fans came up with that. The name Sayo could be a lie too.

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No one actually addresses the "Shannon" that Yasu treats as her BFF. She's just sort of there, and she apparently never ages, has no bed of her own, and apparently Yasu can control her goddamn thoughts.
Both Shannon and Yasu are seen and referred to together by the maids.

We can only trust those scenes. We can't trust the scenes where Shannon and Yasu are alone, because one of them could be making those up - didn't you learn anything from Natushi in Ep.5? Same thing, with some differences. Kinzo was still a real guy.

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And both being clumsy...and both loving Battler...and both having no friends and resorting to fantasy escapism. Also, they talk to each other in Shannon's dreams. Is Yasu a telepath, or are they the same person?
Fantasy scene. Their personalities are very different. And Shannon doesn't resort to escapism in the same way Yasu does.

Quote:
It's Yasu confessing the truth as she remembers it. She may embellish with magical scenes, but if we're gonna say stuff like "Oh, Shannon and Yasu only shared a room because of MUDDLED MEMORIES", then why listen to ANY of this testimony? It's no different than saying "none of this matters since it's not in red."
Because there are some holes obviously too big to fill. Remember, Kinzo was confessing "The truth" too.

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You are VASTLY misunderstanding what that rule actually means. Maria made up all of her imaginary friends, rules, and concepts all by herself. What she needed a SECOND PERSON for was someone to observe and validate it; the same goes for Yasu. She has a complete fictional universe within her mind. But she dresses up as her characters and pretends to be a witch to get people to believe it exists, and thus validate the existence of her Beatrice character. Running with this, there's absolutely no violation with this Yasu character dressing up as both Shannon and Kanon and getting everyone involved to believe both characters are real people.
But what's of note is that Maria never had a "golden" land of her own. Initially, we only seen the Golden land between Shannon and Beatrice, and Beatrice and
Maria. This should tell you something.

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You ignore everything else said in the episode. Like how a universe without a second person is just a daydream or delusion (Shannon speaks to Beatrice in a dream...hmmmmm), and he describes that the "chick Beatrice" was in an egg until it appeared before Maria, and that Mariage Sorciere was a "nest" to mutually nurture both their worlds.
The Chick/Elder Beato and the "Universe" itself don't have to be created at the same time, so they don't have to have the same triggers. Beatrice and her universe are not quite the same thing.

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And this Beatrice-who-is-not-Shannon...uh...spoke to her in her dream? And somehow magically took the love-for-Battler from her soul? Somehow? How the hell does that work?
Fantasy scene. Shmion bullshit.

More believable than Shkannontrice by a mile.

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Come on, man, you can try and argue that Shannon and Kanon are different, but you can't argue that Shannon and Beatrice are different. You seriously just can't, it's impossible.
I just did. You haven't really given any hard proof.

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How the hell does that work? George doesn't care about the headship and only wants to form his own corporate empire, and that's irrelevant to love anyway. What the hell's Jessica gonna do? "Oops, sorry, Kanon, but I'm not gonna be the head of the family, so fuck you, the romance is off"? Because the headship was so important to Jessica.

Honestly, I don't think you thought this through at all.
I don't think you have. The point is, it's possible that only the person that solves the riddle and gets headship survives the massacre/b0mb by feeling to Kuwadorian - of course, it turned out to be Eva, so depressingly, nobody won, but that's what suggests this possibility. I'm not sure how this fits with how the Ep7 tea party/Ep 8 answer is depicted. There are too many unknowns.

Shkannontrice is just a truly awful theory. I don't know why you're getting so aggressive at someone for trying to make better sense of the whole thing.
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Old 2011-04-10, 21:05   Link #22576
Judoh
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Getting a few points out of the way. Because I can. Ah well.

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There's a similar set of problems with Shkannontrice.
The room thing is still a valid point. They comment that it would normally go 2 and 2. Yasu is in a one person room while they're in a three person room, and that would only make sense if the Shannon isn't really staying in Yasu's room.

Plus, your theory screws up Shannon's timeline. Which, despite my earlier response is sort of a pet peeve of mine. Besides Battler's timeline she's the only other person that's had her timeline emphasized as being important through out well... A LOT of the plot.

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Fans came up with that.
Just like you have.

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And it's not true that she wasn't seen by anyone - after all there were plenty of sightings of Beatrice around the mansion.
But none that necessitates that there must be two people instead of one. You're actually creating more unnecessary assumptions.

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Shkannontrice is just a truly awful theory.
Some people don't agree with this.
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Old 2011-04-10, 21:14   Link #22577
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I don't even see what's particularly "awful" about it. If you're just gonna reject a theory arbitrarily from the start you aen't gonna get anywhere.
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Old 2011-04-10, 21:19   Link #22578
Jan-Poo
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You can say that shkanontrice itself is awful but how can the theory be awful?

The theory is grounded on way too many evidences so much that even supposing that it's false you'd still need to acknowledge that Ryuukishi tried his best to make the readers think it's true.
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Old 2011-04-10, 22:38   Link #22579
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My big beef with Shkanon is that it doesn't really explain that much, and really raises bigger questions than it answers.

On one hand, it explains "Why doesn't Battler ever see Shannon and Kanon at the same time?"

And raises "Why did Hideyoshi lie about seeing Shannon's corpse at E1T1?" "Why did most of the adults lie about seeing Shannon's & Kanon's corpses in Episode 3? (Why didn't they drop the charade after Rosa's / Maria's deaths?)" "How do you explain Kanon died in this room. in Episode 2?" just to list the most direct problems.

I think that "Godha is Maria's father." is also a crappy theory, but it at least actually explains things.
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Old 2011-04-10, 22:56   Link #22580
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogerpepitone View Post
My big beef with Shkanon is that it doesn't really explain that much, and really raises bigger questions than it answers.
You're thinking this too much. It's like the cheese thing in arc 6. Of course if you think about it too much Battler's answer of 1 slice raises more questions then it answer, but that's because you think too much. Shkanon is a "riddle trick" that solves most murders on Rokkenjima story, that's it.

Quote:
On one hand, it explains "Why doesn't Battler ever see Shannon and Kanon at the same time?"

And raises "Why did Hideyoshi lie about seeing Shannon's corpse at E1T1?" "Why did most of the adults lie about seeing Shannon's & Kanon's corpses in Episode 3? (Why didn't they drop the charade after Rosa's / Maria's deaths?)" "How do you explain Kanon died in this room. in Episode 2?" just to list the most direct problems.
No problem with Kanon died in this room, it's the whole point of the Shkanontrice theory, if you don't get that I really don't feel like explaining it sorry I'm sure others would. As for Hideyoshi lying well your answer is "for the same reason everyone lied about the first twilight in arc 5". Why would that specific murder make her drop her charade? I don't see any reasons for it.


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I think that "Godha is Maria's father." is also a crappy theory, but it at least actually explains things.
What... Gohda is Maria's father is not even a theory but a 100% fandom speculation grounded on nothing at all. Still I'd really like to know what it's supposed to explain.
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