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Old 2011-04-25, 20:43   Link #22681
cronnoponno
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frisko View Post
I recently realized a huge flaw with Shakanon. Namely, if Kanon is nothing more then a disguise and/or alternate personality for Yasu , then the other Fukuin servants would know his back story was a lie simply by virtue of the fact they had never met him before.


On a different note, one of the problems I always had with Lion/Yasu being the child of Kuwadorian-Beatrice was the fact that Rosa's flashback didn't show any indication that Beatrice had a child. However, I recently thought of an explanation. Beato was pregnant when she died. However, Nanjo was able to transfer her unborn child to a surrogate mother, for example Asumu or Kumasawa.
I was also wondering what the deal with Battler was. I really don't get that Kyrie happened to magically be his mother. I was wondering if some twist like that was possible as well, but little to go off of on there.

Battler, looks NOTHING like Kyrie, doesn't even have her white hair.(But neither does Ange). I'm not sure if that's just typical anime protagonism though.
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Old 2011-04-25, 23:51   Link #22682
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Originally Posted by cronnoponno View Post
I was also wondering what the deal with Battler was. I really don't get that Kyrie happened to magically be his mother. I was wondering if some twist like that was possible as well, but little to go off of on there.

Battler, looks NOTHING like Kyrie, doesn't even have her white hair.(But neither does Ange). I'm not sure if that's just typical anime protagonism though.
Maybe it's a result of Rudolf's brown hair and Kyrie's silver hair if we're to apply any logic to anime and manga hair colors.
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Old 2011-04-26, 07:40   Link #22683
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Originally Posted by Witch of Uncertainty View Post
How come all the 'stories' are written without ange? I find it a bit odd that Yasu guessed correctly that Ange would be absent that day, unless she poisoned her food before the trip, or something.
That's ALWAYS been a huge point of contention, because depending on how conspiratorial you are, Yasu's writing window was rather small, yet the number of pages in the bottles was "massive", and people have already explained why writing Ange in, then editing her out is impossible.

However, you only have to explain Ange's absence in EP's 1 and 2 - every story after that, the writers were aware that Ange wasn't there because ... well, you know - the incident had already happened, and Ange wasn't there. The solution really ... depends on the degree to which you think Yasu is a murderer.


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Originally Posted by Frisko View Post
I recently realized a huge flaw with Shakanon. Namely, if Kanon is nothing more then a disguise and/or alternate personality for Yasu , then the other Fukuin servants would know his back story was a lie simply by virtue of the fact they had never met him before.


On a different note, one of the problems I always had with Lion/Yasu being the child of Kuwadorian-Beatrice was the fact that Rosa's flashback didn't show any indication that Beatrice had a child. However, I recently thought of an explanation. Beato was pregnant when she died. However, Nanjo was able to transfer her unborn child to a surrogate mother, for example Asumu or Kumasawa.
That's not really a "flaw" - that's part of the reason Shkanon is a legitimate theory. If everybody at Fukuin was like "Oh yeah, Kanon - I remember that guy!" it would literally make things MORE confusing. This exists to a lesser degree with the 'Shannon' character as well, I think.

Again, the "solution" depends on how much credit you're giving Yasu as a culprit. I assume the other creepy safety-deposit money boxes was Yasu literally bribing off every Fukuin servant capable of denying Kanon, since even the surviving servants who were working in 1986 verified the accuracy of Kanon, presumably having seen "him" at least once or so.

Regarding Beatrice, well, yeah, I agree - that was totally not a woman who just had a baby. You can explain it as either Loli-Beato being SO sheltered and naive, that she didn't really understand what she'd just gone through. You could also say, and this agrees with Will mentioning that that theory was only possible in EP5, and that you only need EP1-4 to "solve the mystery", that Yasu being the child of that Beatrice was considered an unecessary element, and simply ignored in EP1-4, outside of the siblings theorizing about Kinzo having a secret-baby. XD

Also, I think it'd be kinda weird to surrogate the kid away to someone ... Kumasawa had multiple kids, who presumably might've mentioned their mother's new surprise-baby, as far as Asumu knows she gave birth in the hospital that day (the baby switch from within the same hospital is already lulzy enough...), and Kyrie lol. Natsuhi had been noted pretty early on as having had trouble conceiving. >_>

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Originally Posted by cronnoponno View Post
I was also wondering what the deal with Battler was. I really don't get that Kyrie happened to magically be his mother. I was wondering if some twist like that was possible as well, but little to go off of on there.

Battler, looks NOTHING like Kyrie, doesn't even have her white hair.(But neither does Ange). I'm not sure if that's just typical anime protagonism though.
Well, people had been theorizing that Kyrie was his mother since her fight with Leviathan in EP3, I believe? EP4 also has some pleasant ... well, if not foreshadowing, than "playing around with that piece of information".

And hardly anybody looks like ANYBODY - Ushiromiya genes are like a freakin wheel of fortune. Well, Battler is said to look like Rudolf, and both are said to have resembled Kinzo, I think, so ... XD
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Old 2011-04-26, 08:14   Link #22684
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Inertia could explain the Ange issue; because she didn't appear in two episodes, she doesn't appear in any written later.

As an example of how this need not conform to reality, imagine that on R-Prime Ange was there, and died with the rest, and the girl known as "Ange" in the future is a fraud Okonogi cooked up to scam Eva. Of course there's zero evidence for this (let alone how Eva wouldn't notice), so it's just an example. But it wouldn't change the fact that the original author didn't think Ange was going to be there or didn't write anything suggesting she would be there, and later writings followed it. Narrative thus confirms to expectations, even if those expectations are fundamentally flawed. That's really the whole basis for the fictionalization of Kanon.
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Old 2011-04-26, 10:15   Link #22685
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I'd say Yasu's plan involved Ange not being there (and Battler being there). It seems like the most satisfying resolution to this problem. I'd also say that the storm was immaterial as Yasu was going to make preparations to seal off the island (with Kuwabata in on it, possibly), so the actual weather on the day would be irrelevant.
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Old 2011-04-26, 12:19   Link #22686
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Originally Posted by Leafsnail View Post
I'd say Yasu's plan involved Ange not being there (and Battler being there). It seems like the most satisfying resolution to this problem. I'd also say that the storm was immaterial as Yasu was going to make preparations to seal off the island (with Kuwabata in on it, possibly), so the actual weather on the day would be irrelevant.
If Yasu wasn't the culprit, then I seriously doubt she'd use a six-year-old little girl as a prop in a murder mystery even if Ange did end up coming (which would be difficult to rely on anyway since she got sick so often). Maria gets in because she's basically an accomplice and knows in a roundabout way that the murders will all be "taken back" in the end, but I imagine Yasu intended for Ange to just stay out of the way with her parents and not be involved. Rudolf and Kyrie do get taken out in the first twilight of the first two games, after all.
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Old 2011-04-27, 02:03   Link #22687
cronnoponno
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Now I'm really confused again, I'm rereading ep's 1-4 to pick up on extra hints I might have missed, and right off the bat I'm noticing things.

For one, Battler's fear of shaking vehicles, really reminds me of Asumu. Also, the seating arrangement in the air plane. The announcer announced the seating arrangement as (from right to left downward): Hideyoshi, Eva, George, Battler, Rudolph, Kyrie, Maria, Rosa.

Wait, weren't they called off by rank? Meaning that Maria should be last, and shouldn't(at least) Battler be at least in a lower seating than his parents? Just sort of confused me.

Another note, is that these adults seem really nice. This is also from Battler's perspective(I'm guessing?).

I'm assuming I'm going to find a lot more hints I missed reading further but this confused me a little.

Lol @ this forshadowing of Rosa remembering her year old promise to Kumasawa to bring back Tea Leaves she promised her the year before. Even funnier is ''This sort of thoughfulness is just like Rosa-Oba san, she's the type that would never forget or break a promise. Whether or not Kumasawa baa-chan remembered this year old promise, she seemed touched by the simple fact that someone would give a gift to a servant like her''

Last edited by cronnoponno; 2011-04-27 at 02:16.
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Old 2011-04-27, 03:06   Link #22688
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Why wouldn't the parents be nice in the beginning?

As for rank, It's pretty excused by Battler wanting to get off as soon as possible.
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Old 2011-04-27, 07:28   Link #22689
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If we're talking about rankings, it should go like this:

First is the oldest male (Kinzo), then his children from oldest to youngest (Krauss, Eva, Rudolf, Rosa), his grandchildren based on the age of his children (Jessica, George, Battler, Maria), and finally his children's spouses, who aren't related by blood (Natsuhi, Hideyoshi, Kyrie).
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Old 2011-04-27, 09:00   Link #22690
ndqanh_vn
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For one, Battler's fear of shaking vehicles, really reminds me of Asumu. Also, the seating arrangement in the air plane. The announcer announced the seating arrangement as (from right to left downward): Hideyoshi, Eva, George, Battler, Rudolph, Kyrie, Maria, Rosa.
Sitting according to ranks in the dinner hall is one thing, but I don't think the family is SERIOUS enough to insist on ranking order when arranging seats on an air plane

Quote:
How come all the 'stories' are written without ange? I find it a bit odd that Yasu guessed correctly that Ange would be absent that day, unless she poisoned her food before the trip, or something.
That also bothered me. Her plan involved a freaking storm, Battler coming back and Ange not coming to the party. It all happens "just as plan." it seems a bit unnatural...

But again, who could say that judge Wargrave did not have the whole universe helping him in his "game?"
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Old 2011-04-27, 13:05   Link #22691
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We could just say that Kyrie knew something serious was about to happen and she arranged things in order to keep Ange out of that family conference. Maybe, if we consider her the true murderer, she had already planned a massacre...

That would mean Yasu knew what Kyrie was planning... well, forget it, I guess it just doesn't work.
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Old 2011-04-27, 15:28   Link #22692
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Or Ange was just known to be sick ahead of time. Or maybe Yasu just guessed and turned out to be lucky because Ange is just sickly so goddamn often.
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Old 2011-04-28, 12:19   Link #22693
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Originally Posted by Sorcerer of Miracles View Post
That would mean Yasu knew what Kyrie was planning... well, forget it, I guess it just doesn't work.
Kyrie could know because it was Rudolf that was made to go get Battler to come back for that year. There's a chance that Rudolf could have told Kyrie what was going on and she had made her own plans for that evening.

It's not necessarily that she made plans to kill everyone, it could be that she brought a gun because she suspected something and that during the events she may have been unusually on guard, for example.

And Kyrie, Rudolf or Yasu, together or independently could have decided to leave Ange behind.
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Old 2011-04-28, 13:58   Link #22694
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I could imagine Rudolf arranging for Ange to stay behind so she didn't end up busting in on the whole "Kyrie you're Battler's Mother" thing.
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Old 2011-04-28, 15:12   Link #22695
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Yes, but my problem is that I couldn't imagine how did Yasu know that when she wrote those stories...

Well, I've got used to accept this kind of explanations in Umineko, even though I can't consider them neat.

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Old 2011-04-28, 15:34   Link #22696
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The same way Yasu apparently knew that Rudolf was going to tell Battler that Asumu wasn't his mother.
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Old 2011-04-28, 19:01   Link #22697
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The same way Yasu apparently knew that Rudolf was going to tell Battler that Asumu wasn't his mother.
Technically, she only revealed that she knew he had a secret to tell Battler. It's not entirely obvious in Legend and Turn that the intended secret is about Battler's parentage.
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Old 2011-04-29, 01:25   Link #22698
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Yea, but if she's going to know there's a secret at all, it's still good indication that she knew Ange would be left behind, since it's a secret Rudolf semi-joked he was going to be killed over.
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Old 2011-04-29, 03:12   Link #22699
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By the way, on one higher level, this means Yasu and Battler/Tooya both know about Battler's parentage. Well maybe Tooya figured it out after..

From Tooya's perspective, if he did, he figured it out from just the hint about Rudolf needing to speak to Kyrie and Battler. So I think he must have suspected it from out of Battler's memories, enough to be sure enough to give the hint in episode 4.

Which means to me that Battler prime must have known alot more about what was going on than the both Meta Battler and Piece Battler.Which maybe explains the end of episode 8 and his attitude towards Beatrice (i.e. He loved her already when if he had really forgotten about her he should have acted more like in the stories after just two days.)
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Old 2011-04-29, 07:15   Link #22700
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You're arguing that Hachijou/Featherine isn't a witch or omniscient because she didn't tell Battler where Ange was? She, who taught Bernkastel the taste of meat? Come on now, be serious.
Regardless of her relationship with Bernkastel, she was supposed to be part of a romantic couple with Battler for the decades he was trying to find Ange. Not explaining why she didn't simply tell him Ange's location is a plot hole by any definition.

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How so? A figment of her imagination penetrates a figment of her imagination and then she picks up a gun and shoots the ground. What the hell is the problem?
But Ange's delusions had some basis in reality, like seeing Eva-Beatrice as the one encouraging Kasumi. Why come up with something loud, dramatic, and unexpected like Eva's gun blowing up and Ange killing her, instead of Mammon killing her off like Kasumi and her men?

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Turn the chessboard over. If someone sniped off Kasumi and company, why would they appear before Ange and leave their vantage point? And in order for this person to be sniped, Mammon would have to correlate with another bullet, meaning that there is either a second sniper, or this Eva figure doesn't correlate with either Ange, the sniper, or any of the dead people, meaning it has no implied or demonstrated character to represent.
At that point, Ange was unarmed and the sniper might have wanted to taunt her close-up. The gun blowing up might have been Ange jamming an actual stake in the gun (the VN said she had found the Mammon stake earlier). In the VN, it might have been a second shooter who apparently went on the kill Ange. That's another thing: if the scene with Eva was all in Ange's head, why wait until she went through the motions of shooting Eva instead of killing her right after Kasumi?

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The Eva figure is nothing more but a personification of the Black Witch; the metaphorical final obstacle that Ange has to smash in order to complete her worldview. That's all.
But why not confront Eva-Beatrice, the actual Black Witch? Why have an image of Eva with one of Kinzo's guns, which Ange wouldn't have associated with her? Her fears of Eva were of being hit. If the idea was to accept Eva as a human being who could have been helped with white magic, why have the mercy killing scenario?

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Also note that when they're giving their testimony to Rosa, Shannon is with them, and they keep stumbling over their words and bouncing obvious lies off each other. I imagine it's a sort of "Tell them what I told you or I kill you guys" thing.
Or Kanon's words before he attacked had convinced them that Rosa was actually the mastermind. She was holding the gun while they were talking. Genji probably blamed Rosa too.


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Yasu does not have multiple personalities, she's just a very dedicated actor. The fact that she can control Shannon's memories and personality, does not have memory gaps from when Shannon and Kanon are in control, and is able to talk with Shannon and Kanon proves that she does not have Dissociative Identity Disorder or anything similar.
Communicating with her mental constructs is an argument against multiple personalities? That sounds counterintuitive. As for memory gaps, didn't someone mention Shannon needing note cards initially? In the manga of Turn of the Golden Witch, Beatrice wanted to hear details about Shannon's date with George, which implies a gap.

It's probable that Yasu conceived of Shannon as an ideal maid, but when she emerged as an alternate personality, she only had Yasu's training, so she made mistakes when her concentration slipped.

The biggest arguments for Kanon as an alter is the red text saying only he could have claimed his name in EP2, and his attempt to stop Beatrice by committing suicide in EP1.
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