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Old 2011-04-29, 08:12   Link #22701
Renall
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Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
Which means to me that Battler prime must have known alot more about what was going on than the both Meta Battler and Piece Battler.Which maybe explains the end of episode 8 and his attitude towards Beatrice (i.e. He loved her already when if he had really forgotten about her he should have acted more like in the stories after just two days.)
I've been saying that for a while. Obviously there was never a very good explanation. After ep8 there's an explanation, it just isn't very good: Amnesia!

Piece and Meta-Battler never knew as much as Battler-Prime because he was struggling to rediscover his past and working from the message bottle template of Battler, who was based on another person's expectations or impression of him. And given Battler's poor judgment of character, it wouldn't be altogether surprising to see someone get him completely wrong too.
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Old 2011-04-29, 09:28   Link #22702
LyricalAura
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Regardless of her relationship with Bernkastel, she was supposed to be part of a romantic couple with Battler for the decades he was trying to find Ange. Not explaining why she didn't simply tell him Ange's location is a plot hole by any definition.
I thought that he didn't want to see Ange because he didn't consider himself to be Battler? It's not like Ikuko was hiding her location from him. And Ange vanished without a trace in 1998, so after that even Featherine couldn't be held responsible without demanding that she violate the rules of magic.
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Old 2011-04-29, 13:36   Link #22703
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Regardless of her relationship with Bernkastel, she was supposed to be part of a romantic couple with Battler for the decades he was trying to find Ange. Not explaining why she didn't simply tell him Ange's location is a plot hole by any definition.
What LyricalAura said. Battler didn't want to meet her until he recovered more of his memory, but he was afraid to do so because he feared it might destroy the person he currently was.

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But Ange's delusions had some basis in reality, like seeing Eva-Beatrice as the one encouraging Kasumi. Why come up with something loud, dramatic, and unexpected like Eva's gun blowing up and Ange killing her, instead of Mammon killing her off like Kasumi and her men?
It's called irony.

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At that point, Ange was unarmed and the sniper might have wanted to taunt her close-up. The gun blowing up might have been Ange jamming an actual stake in the gun (the VN said she had found the Mammon stake earlier). In the VN, it might have been a second shooter who apparently went on the kill Ange. That's another thing: if the scene with Eva was all in Ange's head, why wait until she went through the motions of shooting Eva instead of killing her right after Kasumi?
Yea right, like a sniper's gonna let Ange run up and shove a blunt paperweight through the gun barrel or something.

The thing is, though, that we have no proof that Ange was killed by a sniper anyway; it's fan conjecture. For all we know, Amakusa sniped all those dudes to save Ange, and then the "Ange Ushiromiya died in 1998" is her disappearing and changing her name.

Even if he did shoot her, the "Eva" scene, being a fantasy, could have continued after she was shot, just like the Episodes have magic scenes continue with the characters after they've been blown to smithereens by the bomb.

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But why not confront Eva-Beatrice, the actual Black Witch? Why have an image of Eva with one of Kinzo's guns, which Ange wouldn't have associated with her? Her fears of Eva were of being hit. If the idea was to accept Eva as a human being who could have been helped with white magic, why have the mercy killing scenario?
She's facing the personification of Eva As Murderer. A childhood witch associated with just hatred in general is too abstract, but Eva on that day with one of the guns she would've used to kill Ange's family? That's right on the money. Ultimately the only way to save Eva at this point, since she's already dead, is to destroy the image of an Evil Eva within her heart. Using white magic to make an imaginary Eva become super duper best buds isn't going to solve anything.

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Or Kanon's words before he attacked had convinced them that Rosa was actually the mastermind. She was holding the gun while they were talking. Genji probably blamed Rosa too.
"It was definitely....Kanon....but it wasn't..." Come on, dude. Kanon convincing them that Rosa is the culprit doesn't lead us to them blaming a Not-Kanon.

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Communicating with her mental constructs is an argument against multiple personalities? That sounds counterintuitive. As for memory gaps, didn't someone mention Shannon needing note cards initially? In the manga of Turn of the Golden Witch, Beatrice wanted to hear details about Shannon's date with George, which implies a gap.

It's probable that Yasu conceived of Shannon as an ideal maid, but when she emerged as an alternate personality, she only had Yasu's training, so she made mistakes when her concentration slipped.

The biggest arguments for Kanon as an alter is the red text saying only he could have claimed his name in EP2, and his attempt to stop Beatrice by committing suicide in EP1.
I have a family member with multiple personalities, and I've studied the subject as intensely as possible. In every case where someone "speaks to" their other personalities, they're either faking it, or it's a madeup fictional story. If Yasu has Multiple Personalities, it's this stupid magical Hollywood Split Personality bullshit that doesn't exist in the real world.

Multiples aren't able to communicate with their other selves face to face; they typically write down notes or use recorders and answering machines or something like that, as if they were chronic amnesiacs.

Shannon is forgetful, but it doesn't imply complete gaps in time; Yasu is clumsy and forgetful without losing time; this is an established character trait. Similarly, Yasu constructing characters and not letting them share life experiences with herself is just keeping continuity.

If Yasu had memory gaps between all her personalities and she indeed had Multiple Personality Disorder, she would not be able to control the shifts or construct this elaborate plan that kept absolutely everyone from finding out Shannon and Kanon and Beatrice are the same person.

The Red doesn't hurt "Kanon-as-alter" theory, though. Shannon is Kanon, so she can claim his name.

But anyway, I'm going to have faith in Ryukishi. Despite his tremendous fuckups overall, he's fairly good about constructing characters and researching mental illness. The idea that Yasu is roleplaying with herself is not only precedented within the story with Ange and Maria, but also tremendously less retarded.
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Old 2011-04-29, 21:27   Link #22704
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
I have a family member with multiple personalities, and I've studied the subject as intensely as possible. In every case where someone "speaks to" their other personalities, they're either faking it, or it's a madeup fictional story. If Yasu has Multiple Personalities, it's this stupid magical Hollywood Split Personality bullshit that doesn't exist in the real world.

Multiples aren't able to communicate with their other selves face to face; they typically write down notes or use recorders and answering machines or something like that, as if they were chronic amnesiacs.

Shannon is forgetful, but it doesn't imply complete gaps in time; Yasu is clumsy and forgetful without losing time; this is an established character trait. Similarly, Yasu constructing characters and not letting them share life experiences with herself is just keeping continuity.

If Yasu had memory gaps between all her personalities and she indeed had Multiple Personality Disorder, she would not be able to control the shifts or construct this elaborate plan that kept absolutely everyone from finding out Shannon and Kanon and Beatrice are the same person.

The Red doesn't hurt "Kanon-as-alter" theory, though. Shannon is Kanon, so she can claim his name.

But anyway, I'm going to have faith in Ryukishi. Despite his tremendous fuckups overall, he's fairly good about constructing characters and researching mental illness. The idea that Yasu is roleplaying with herself is not only precedented within the story with Ange and Maria, but also tremendously less retarded.
Putting aside the inherent problem with claiming every member of a group has the same traits when you can't use the Red Truth to prove your claim (regardless of sample size there's always a margin of error), and assuming that Ryukishi07 wouldn't misrepresent multiple personality disorder. It's still possible that Yasu and the forgers would. From a Watsonian perspective Ryukishi07's role is simply to filter though the endless supply of forgeries and show us the one's that actually matter, and maybe give us a few brief glances of Rokkenjima prime, and possibly write the meta-world stuff.

Personally, I think Actress!Yasu makes the purpose Love Dual become "Waaaa. I can't decide which of the people I'm cheating on to stay with. Waaa. "

Multiple!Yasu and the fantasy explanation for the Love Dual might both be unrealistic, but at least they don't make me loathe anyone.
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Old 2011-04-29, 22:43   Link #22705
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Originally Posted by Frisko View Post
Personally, I think Actress!Yasu makes the purpose Love Dual become "Waaaa. I can't decide which of the people I'm cheating on to stay with. Waaa. "

Multiple!Yasu and the fantasy explanation for the Love Dual might both be unrealistic, but at least they don't make me loathe anyone.
To be fair, Yasu isn't cheating on anybody.
She loves Battler, but they were never in a relationship - they were 12.
She loves George, and that's a pretty well established relationship.
She loves Jessica, but they were neber in a relationship, either, and I read it as playing further on her gender-angst. Furthermore, as far as we know, Yasu outright rejected Jessica advances in the past, and tried to discourage her.

I mean, I didn't entirely like the Love Duel either - "I just can't decide which young wealthy cousin to get jiggy with for good." But Actress-Yasu presents a person with these distinctly seperate modes of self, and the problematic of which one of these selves to go on with the rest of life with hits a head. From Zepar / Furfur's dialogue, Yasu is clearly aware that it's wrong to NOT make a decision.

Also, pretty sure "I have literal, medical DID" doesn't work in a way that aligns with the Love Duel Mechanics, as in, real DID doesn't come down to biting the bullet and making a choice. The Love Duel is kinda ... Yasu realizing that her cosplay imaginary friend shenanigans are unfeasible past October 1986.
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Old 2011-04-29, 23:35   Link #22706
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To be fair, Yasu isn't cheating on anybody.
She loves Battler, but they were never in a relationship - they were 12.
She loves George, and that's a pretty well established relationship.
She loves Jessica, but they were neber in a relationship, either, and I read it as playing further on her gender-angst. Furthermore, as far as we know, Yasu outright rejected Jessica advances in the past, and tried to discourage her.
You're right, I let my initial view of what Kanon and Jessica's relationship should be distort my view of what Yasu and Jessica's relationship is. As such I retract my claim that Yasu cheated on anyone. As such I have no reason to reject Actress!Yasu.
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Old 2011-04-30, 12:38   Link #22707
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Putting aside the inherent problem with claiming every member of a group has the same traits when you can't use the Red Truth to prove your claim (regardless of sample size there's always a margin of error), and assuming that Ryukishi07 wouldn't misrepresent multiple personality disorder. It's still possible that Yasu and the forgers would. From a Watsonian perspective Ryukishi07's role is simply to filter though the endless supply of forgeries and show us the one's that actually matter, and maybe give us a few brief glances of Rokkenjima prime, and possibly write the meta-world stuff.
If Yasu is misrepresenting multiple personalities, doesn't it mean she doesn't have it? Hurderp. But yea for the record I have an aunt with multiple personalities. Because of her stability and happiness, all of them, I don't personally see it as inherently being a disorder.

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Personally, I think Actress!Yasu makes the purpose Love Dual become "Waaaa. I can't decide which of the people I'm cheating on to stay with. Waaa. "
And with Multiple Personalities it's one of Yasu's alters being complicit in TWO MURDERS, instead of trying to work out some sort of option where all three of them can be happy, or atleast integrate. Maybe even confess the condition to her three lovers and try and work something out; she's certainly idealistic enough to try.

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Also, pretty sure "I have literal, medical DID" doesn't work in a way that aligns with the Love Duel Mechanics, as in, real DID doesn't come down to biting the bullet and making a choice.
Exactly. Someone with Multiple Personalities can't just make or destroy personalities. If Shannon, Kanin, etc were separate minds in her head, she wouldn't be able to design them, alter then, remove them from existence, or whatever. And yet the entire series keeps going on about actors, parts, playing roles, adopting personas...
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Old 2011-04-30, 20:49   Link #22708
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Not to mention if she had real DID and one of her personalities was a murderer, or knew about a murder but wanted to keep silent, or was otherwise complicit, that's no guarantee the other personalities would have exactly the same moral and rational compunctions that would keep them silent. If you had actual medical DID it would be pretty hard to get away with planning anything bad if anyone else - be it yourself or any other person while the murderous personality is indisposed and can't do anything about it - catches on.

And if you have actual DID, someone will catch on. You would basically be required to squirrel away all your preparation so well that not even you could stumble upon it, and that really isn't as easy as it sounds because you can't fool muscle memory. Shannon absentmindedly flips up a carpet with her foot because Beatrice stores her disturbing writings under there and the body moves on instinct? "Huh, what's this?" Yeah, way to go, you just foiled your own plot. Not as easy as you thought it would be, eh?

To say nothing of the entirely possible scenario where the symptoms don't recur and you're of a non-murderous mindset for a while. All the planning on earth won't help if you get right through the window of opportunity never aware you were supposed to be killing anyone. Much easier to believe in acting or an overactive imagination, and easier still to believe no criminal intent at all.
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Old 2011-04-30, 21:31   Link #22709
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Regardless of her nature, I don't think Yasu murdered anyone or allowed anyone to be murdered. Since, Beato wanted Battler to solve the mystery, but made sure to declare the human Beatrice had died in 1963. Granted Yasu is a different Beatrice, but Beato claimed they were the same person. Thus in my opinion having Yasu be the culprit is to the who-done-it what magic is to the how-done-it.

Also, just to be clear, I never liked the idea of Yasu having multiple personalities. I simply disliked it less then Actress!Yasu while I was misremembering the nature of Kanon and Jessica's relationship.

My current preference in order of favorite to least favorite is

1) Shannon and Kanon as separate people who have some mundane reason they can't both be with their loved one. (though I'll admit I can't think of any such reason)
2) Actress!Yasu
3) The fantasy explanation we were given for the love dual. (this would be #2 if it wasn't for the fact it ignores the fact they had gotten over their furniture complexes two episodes earlier.)
4)Multiple!Yasu (since as other people have mentioned it doesn't really work that way at all).

Before, Actress!Yasu was at the bottom, but otherwise the order was the same.
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Old 2011-05-01, 01:17   Link #22710
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magic is to the how-done-it.
What the hell?
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Old 2011-05-01, 01:59   Link #22711
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I think he meant having Yasu being the culprit is as much of a lie as magic being the method of murder.

But, either way, I think it's rather clear Yasu is the culprit in the forgeries.
Also, given the info in the forgeries along with the events in EP7 and EP8, I wouldn't be surprised if she was part of the murders in R-Prime, even if she was being forced into it.
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Old 2011-05-01, 03:08   Link #22712
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I've been saying that for a while. Obviously there was never a very good explanation. After ep8 there's an explanation, it just isn't very good: Amnesia!

Piece and Meta-Battler never knew as much as Battler-Prime because he was struggling to rediscover his past and working from the message bottle template of Battler, who was based on another person's expectations or impression of him. And given Battler's poor judgment of character, it wouldn't be altogether surprising to see someone get him completely wrong too.
Well actually, I'm thinking more along the lines that Battler/Tooya dumb downed Piece and Meta Battler compared to himself/the memories of Battler Prime. More as a way to maintain the character of Battler as he wrote his way through EP3-7 or 8.

I think that night when he saw Ikuko reading up on the Rokkenjima Incident and it was said that he regained his memories of who he was and I'm thinking that he regained all of Battler's memories. I don't remember that he continued to recover more over time or something, but I may have missed that.

It's just important to note that what Beatrice thinks of Battler's sin, may not have actually occurred. (i.e. if the sin is about Battler forgetting, he may not have actually forgot) And also the events of Rokkenjima may have wildly deviated from Beatrice's original plans because of this. Besides the big explosion at the end, of course. This is all because the real Battler-Prime may have deviated wildly from Beatrice/Yasu/Shannon's impressions of him (mostly because of George's manipulations as-seen-in-Episode-7.)

What she did didn't need to amount to murder, but in whatever she did (i.e., most likely the Epitaph Game), if Battler came back and said all the right words it could've literally taken the wind out of her anger sails. The Epitaph Game could've not even been run properly too and was aborted on the first twilight, who knows. Of course that wouldn't have stopped all sorts of craziness from happening, as seen in Lion's world, at least according to Tooya -> Bernkastel. Basically according to Tooya, he knew that even if you totally removed Yasu and her plans from the equation (resulting in Lion), that there would still be a massacre (although probably a more brutal obvious one).


By the way, it seems it's useful to take what the characters say in EP3-7 or 8 about the truth of the situation and view it as a hint that Tooya is giving through his story. Because ultimately it's coming from his/Battler's brain. Because if Bernkastel said that the murders would still happen, it's possible that Tooya/Battler knew enough about the murders to say it would happen. Mouth pieces of the author, essentially. So what other things would become enlightening once you realize it's actually Tooya/Battler saying them? It just seems that Battler ended up knowing a LOT of stuff after all... maybe a lot of it from before the incident...


Speaking of which, how did Ikuko 'read up' on the news on her computer circa late 80's? ... what, was there a specialty news modem-dialed BBS in Japan or something?
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Old 2011-05-01, 03:29   Link #22713
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Given that Ikuko apparently doesn't age and can use red in 1998....magic. Magic internet.
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Old 2011-05-01, 06:37   Link #22714
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Given that Ikuko apparently doesn't age and can use red in 1998....magic. Magic internet.
It's things like this that make it hard for me to understand why there are still people who think Ikuko's part of the narrative is in R-Prime. Or for that matter, that any part of EP8 is in R-Prime at all.

Speaking of which, I thought it was interesting that Ange's fate is treated kind of like a small cat box.

EP4: She jumps off the skyscraper, and then immediately departs on a secret trip under a false name. On the trip, she only interacts with people who have some reason to say "no, I never met with her," and then eventually vanishes on Rokkenjima.
EP6: Same as EP4, now with a hypothetical meeting with a secretive author added in.
EP8 trick end: Vanishes on Rokkenjima after committing several murders.
EP8 magic end: Doesn't jump from the skyscraper, but still vanishes immediately afterward, leaving all her money to Okonogi.

The common factors are that, to the outside world, Ange always vanishes from the skyscraper, and evidently, Okonogi always ends up in control of her money. Perhaps all of the forgeries starting with EP4 were actually written after she inexplicably vanished?
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Old 2011-05-01, 09:14   Link #22715
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Of course that wouldn't have stopped all sorts of craziness from happening, as seen in Lion's world, at least according to Tooya -> Bernkastel. Basically according to Tooya, he knew that even if you totally removed Yasu and her plans from the equation (resulting in Lion), that there would still be a massacre (although probably a more brutal obvious one).

...just to be argumentative - I havent read EP8, though I know the "One Truth" that was apparently in Eva's diary was shown to Ange, but not us (barring a few cryptic screens that vaguely summarize a string of events).

Still, i find the idea of "Murder happens, even if Yasu were, hypothetically, to have done NOTHING AT ALL" to be ridiculous. Even now, I'm really back and forth on how culpable I consider Yasu in R-Prime, but Bernkastel's situation where Kyrie goes trigger happy in Lion's world is SO full of plot holes it's impossible for me to seriously consider.
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Old 2011-05-01, 13:15   Link #22716
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The common factors are that, to the outside world, Ange always vanishes from the skyscraper, and evidently, Okonogi always ends up in control of her money. Perhaps all of the forgeries starting with EP4 were actually written after she inexplicably vanished?
I always liked this idea.
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Old 2011-05-01, 15:01   Link #22717
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
The common factors are that, to the outside world, Ange always vanishes from the skyscraper, and evidently, Okonogi always ends up in control of her money. Perhaps all of the forgeries starting with EP4 were actually written after she inexplicably vanished?
This is insightful. I think this shows the limitations of Tooya when writing about Ange since she is a character based off of a real person. Modify what happened to her too much and people will cry 'fake!' 8)

By the way, if you use this kind of thinking you could sort of determine which characters were based off of Rokkenjima Prime people and which were 'invented.' (Not counting Meta-world and Fantasy characters, of course...)

For example:
Amakusa Juuza - probably 'invented' by Tooya since his fate is variable
Furudo Erika - based off of a Rokkenjima Prime person to justify her introduction, but perhaps the original absolutely did not resemble the Erika in the story, both in looks, age and personality?

Hm... that's all I could think of. A surprisingly short list. 8)

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...just to be argumentative - I havent read EP8, though I know the "One Truth" that was apparently in Eva's diary was shown to Ange, but not us (barring a few cryptic screens that vaguely summarize a string of events).

Still, i find the idea of "Murder happens, even if Yasu were, hypothetically, to have done NOTHING AT ALL" to be ridiculous. Even now, I'm really back and forth on how culpable I consider Yasu in R-Prime, but Bernkastel's situation where Kyrie goes trigger happy in Lion's world is SO full of plot holes it's impossible for me to seriously consider.
Well, there's nothing in EP8 that says that scenario has to be true. So it's not like it has to be seen as 100%.

But what I'm getting at is that this is kind of a continuation of the Author Theory, which states that the Authors are trying to tell us things about the truth they know of Rokkenjima. Prior to EP8, I think a lot of us mistrusted Hachijou Tooya because she seemed to be a sexy, yet devious evil author. :3 But now that we know it's Ex-Battler, maybe we can trust what EP3-7 or 8 tells us, similar to how we were investigating what Beatrice/Yasu was trying to tell us through EP1-2.

So in that sense, yes, Tooya was portraying a messed up story with Bernkastel trolling us at times, but maybe the idea that the murder still happens was something he knew about the situation and was able to say it through the character of Bernkastel.... ?

And so, what else has Tooya hinted in the story that we were discounting because it came through one of the 'villains' or something? Etc., etc. I guess sorting this out is no mean feat though...
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Old 2011-05-02, 08:16   Link #22718
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It's things like this that make it hard for me to understand why there are still people who think Ikuko's part of the narrative is in R-Prime. Or for that matter, that any part of EP8 is in R-Prime at all.
Approaching, as was the initial guarded thought of ep4 Ange, but not necessarily part of.

I think it's clear that certain public details are completely invariable. All 1998 stories say Eva survived, for example; this appears to be as public a detail as who traveled to the Rokkenjima Conference in '86. The question then of the future scenes (such as any 1998 or the later-still epilogue) is what information was public going forward, and whether things like the epilogue or Ange's Sakutaro stories are known to have been created. Without anchoring details, anything could be a forgery (even Battler's survival could itself be as much a forgery as anything). In theory, anything held out as "public information" could be taken as true... however...

A problem here, perhaps, is that in the "Ange's last public detail is when she was on the skyscraper" story, some additional details have to be known. The only way it would be public knowledge that she'd done that is that the bodyguards who chased after her reported it, and if they did, they must also have known whether she did or did not jump. Okonogi insinuated in ep4 that her miraculous survival was well-known, which if a forgery seems like it would directly contradict known events in 1998; a more likely outcome, that she didn't jump and disappeared after returning to Okonogi's custody, makes for less obvious fragment branch-offs, as what would have happened thereafter would not be easy to publically ascertain.

In other words, calling ep4 and all ep8 endings forgeries means either that public information is unreliable (in which case how can we guess anything at all about R-Prime) or at least one of the 1998 forgeries flatly contradicts public knowledge (i.e. Ange is known not to have jumped in 1998 -> ep4 forgery contradicts something known to the public to be untrue in its narrative). This is different from the Erika thing because Erika's fate is not known subsequent to the last node of public information about her (if there was any in the first place).

The other resolution would be that the skyscraper story is itself a forgery and Ange disappeared before that, though that doesn't get us around the notion that the public might have heard about her jump which would not have been the case in any forgery where she doesn't do that.
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Old 2011-05-02, 19:45   Link #22719
Used Can
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What if.... WHAT IF... in R. Prime, Ange was actually a man, and he was turned into a girl in the books to boost sales?
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Old 2011-05-02, 19:50   Link #22720
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Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
What if.... WHAT IF... in R. Prime, Ange was actually a man, and he was turned into a girl in the books to boost sales?
Then all of my fanfics will have been RUINED! RUINED I tells ya!
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