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Old 2011-05-03, 01:51   Link #22721
AuraTwilight
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Suddenly Battler/Ange just got a lot hotter, imo.
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Old 2011-05-03, 04:51   Link #22722
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Oh yes! Just imagine them by their 70s having sex.
Dayum! It'd be like seeing two Kinzos making fuck.
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Old 2011-05-11, 03:03   Link #22723
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Spoiler for Bernkastels ep8 game:
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Old 2011-05-11, 11:01   Link #22724
UsagiTenpura
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George's problem was Shannon's death to rule them out.
Tho using enough Shkanontrice logic and looking for holes in time where Yasu could've acted, it's possible to reason out the murder game and get Yasu as the culprit, as always.
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Old 2011-05-11, 11:27   Link #22725
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Yes well, with BS and magic just about anything is possible, which I thought was the point the story was trying to bring us away from. But oh well, silly me.
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Old 2011-05-11, 11:44   Link #22726
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To me arc 8 is a very figurative retelling of the entire events of the serie tho.
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Old 2011-05-11, 12:05   Link #22727
Renall
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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
To me arc 8 is a very figurative retelling of the entire events of the serie tho.
That makes some degree of sense, as it's a final episode and supposed to be a thematic mirror of ep4, which kinda sorta did the same.
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Old 2011-05-11, 12:29   Link #22728
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Slight glitches with the E8 logic:

Spoiler:
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Old 2011-05-11, 12:33   Link #22729
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
That makes some degree of sense, as it's a final episode and supposed to be a thematic mirror of ep4, which kinda sorta did the same.
It's interesting to look back at the previous episodes and try to understand what Tohya and Ikuko were doing "up top" based on how their avatars were acting. For instance...

Spoiler for image:

When I read this now I picture Ikuko having a huge fight with Tohya because he couldn't understand what she was trying to tell him, and deciding to cut the story she was writing short. Then she stops talking to him and decides to never write about Beatrice again, leaving Tohya alone in his room to pore over the previous stories. Then Tohya sees what the Witch Hunters are writing about his family on the internet...
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Old 2011-05-11, 12:38   Link #22730
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogerpepitone View Post
Slight glitches with the E8 logic:

Spoiler:
They did, because they found Shannon's corpse and Kanon could not be found. Moreover, the point wasn't that George cannot physically carry out Shannon's death, but that he would not be complicit in any scheme involving her death no matter what he personally has to do. The second Shannon was in danger, he'd of ratted out his family.

Maria cannot kill anyone. George cannot kill an adult. Kanon is not a kid.
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Old 2011-05-11, 13:12   Link #22731
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
When I read this now I picture Ikuko having a huge fight with Tohya because he couldn't understand what she was trying to tell him, and deciding to cut the story she was writing short. Then she stops talking to him and decides to never write about Beatrice again, leaving Tohya alone in his room to pore over the previous stories. Then Tohya sees what the Witch Hunters are writing about his family on the internet...
That would explain his shoddy workmanship, I suppose. That would firmly make Dlanor and Zepar/Furfur his creations though. What do they represent at the top level?
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Old 2011-05-11, 14:06   Link #22732
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His sexual dysfunction.
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Old 2011-05-11, 14:19   Link #22733
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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
George's problem was Shannon's death to rule them out.
Tho using enough Shkanontrice logic and looking for holes in time where Yasu could've acted, it's possible to reason out the murder game and get Yasu as the culprit, as always.
Erika: A definition of culprit is ''someone who murders'', it is possible for George to be the culprit if he committed murder before he came to Rokkanjima!

Maria:George could never kill an adult, but he could kill a kid! kihihihihi!


George:I was forcedto acknowlege that she had been killed

I know it's a bit of a crazy argument, but George could have possibly been the culprit. If Maria is not a culprit, she wasn't lying about George being able to kill a kid, but ''George is good with kids''. Is there really no suspicion in why Maria said that?

Jessica: George got angry, so we looked for everyone

In the hints, it was jokingly suggested that ''there could be 2 culprits, and the third one is acting on their own''. But maybe that is possible?


Random theory, I will use method ''x'' and motive ''x''.
Before the events of Rokkenjima, George poisoned Ange for ''x'' reason, this was a poison that would not take immediate effect, so it could be misidentified as being sick. At the first twilight, for ''x'' reason, Eva and Hideyoshi happened to kill everyone in the hall, and played dead. George, being a culprit before reaching Rokkenjima, could lie, and misidentified the deaths. A disagreement was reached somewhere in this time zone, lets use Eva as an example. Eva wanted to kill Shannon, possibly out of spite for her love affair with her beloved son. She obviously would insist Shannon could not be trusted, George could have either known this or not have known it. At any rate, George realized that Shannon was killed, I don't believe the events were explained too well, so Eva could have forced him to acknowlege her death. George would not rat out his parents, because he was already in a criminal history with killing Ange, and with ''x'' amount already on his plate, it was best to just go with the flow at this point. George and Eva had officially started working on their own at this point, because it was clearly not part of the plan to kill Shannon.

I'm pretty sure there are flaws to that theory, but I'd rather have them pointed out to me than figure them out myself lol. A problem I thought was Krauss when he said ''of course, we're all gathered here. It is certain that no one is hiding.''

Some other things that confuse me are Bernkastels red truth saying All of the windows had steel bars on them, so it was impossible to enter or exit by them. Does this imply that they did not even have to seal the windows? They never said WHEN they had steel bars on them, she said ''they sealed the mansion by sealing the front and back door'', so it implies they never had to deal with the windows. Why would Maria then say that ''they sealed the doors and windows'' the same way?

Bernkastel also said in red The culprit of the first twilight really did kill six people. Meaning that THAT culprit, had to do the killing. Is Hideyoshi honestly capable of killing 6 people at once while Eva just watches? Is ANY one capable of doing that?

There are a vast number of vaguely written truths, and even though we're supposed to take purple as perfect, some of the purple feels like they are based off of human interpretation. I think that some purple must be questioned, because it was obviously needed to say that no one could mistakenly diagnose a corpse in that game in purple, even if Shannon said the kids all confirmed their parents deaths...in purple.



Also, another random topic on Van dines and Knox's rules. Wouldn't one say that it's technically fantasy? Supernatural rules are being enforced on the criminal in either to keep him in check in the tale, however, we of real life know that these rules have little chance of applying. It's impossible to simply have rules laid out to you in order to have all forms of reasoning possible. It's a supernatural set of rules, made to prevent supernatural events from screwing up the facts and logic process that can influence a mystery. No supernatural agencies can be used as a detective technique, even though that rule itself limits the detective for no reason? Sounds supernatural to me.

Last edited by cronnoponno; 2011-05-11 at 18:12.
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Old 2011-05-11, 18:30   Link #22734
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
That would explain his shoddy workmanship, I suppose. That would firmly make Dlanor and Zepar/Furfur his creations though. What do they represent at the top level?
Dlanor's exactly what she looks like: a personification of the Knox Decalogue, which the internet Witch Hunters (Bernkastel) were abusing in their game before Tohya barged in and shut them all down with his answer. And Zepar and Furfur were in EP6 to represent the elements of gender confusion and theatricality in the original stories, so that Tohya could prove to Ikuko that he understood the core of her mystery.

The million dollar question is, who or what does Lambda represent? It was said at some point that Bern and Lambda couldn't exist on the game board without Beatrice's consent, so there ought to be some element that gets involved as a result of Ikuko publicizing the stories.
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Old 2011-05-11, 19:02   Link #22735
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Dlanor's exactly what she looks like: a personification of the Knox Decalogue, which the internet Witch Hunters (Bernkastel) were abusing in their game before Tohya barged in and shut them all down with his answer. And Zepar and Furfur were in EP6 to represent the elements of gender confusion and theatricality in the original stories, so that Tohya could prove to Ikuko that he understood the core of her mystery.

The million dollar question is, who or what does Lambda represent? It was said at some point that Bern and Lambda couldn't exist on the game board without Beatrice's consent, so there ought to be some element that gets involved as a result of Ikuko publicizing the stories.
weren't the internet witch hunters the goats and Erika?

afaik, Bern and Lambda represents nothing but what their witch powers describe. btw I remembered it backwards, I thought Beatrice got her powers from Lambda and Bern?
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Old 2011-05-11, 20:29   Link #22736
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Quote:
Before the events of Rokkenjima, George poisoned Ange for ''x'' reason, this was a poison that would not take immediate effect, so it could be misidentified as being sick. At the first twilight, for ''x'' reason, Eva and Hideyoshi happened to kill everyone in the hall, and played dead. George, being a culprit before reaching Rokkenjima, could lie, and misidentified the deaths. A disagreement was reached somewhere in this time zone, lets use Eva as an example. Eva wanted to kill Shannon, possibly out of spite for her love affair with her beloved son. She obviously would insist Shannon could not be trusted, George could have either known this or not have known it. At any rate, George realized that Shannon was killed, I don't believe the events were explained too well, so Eva could have forced him to acknowlege her death. George would not rat out his parents, because he was already in a criminal history with killing Ange, and with ''x'' amount already on his plate, it was best to just go with the flow at this point. George and Eva had officially started working on their own at this point, because it was clearly not part of the plan to kill Shannon.
Doesn't work; the culprit has to kill point-blank with physical force, such as with a gun or a club.

Quote:
Some other things that confuse me are Bernkastels red truth saying All of the windows had steel bars on them, so it was impossible to enter or exit by them. Does this imply that they did not even have to seal the windows? They never said WHEN they had steel bars on them, she said ''they sealed the mansion by sealing the front and back door'', so it implies they never had to deal with the windows. Why would Maria then say that ''they sealed the doors and windows'' the same way?
The steel bars were always there; you don't just install that shit in an hour and Bernkastel created that rule to SAVE TIME AND SIMPLICITY. Maria was just confirming that everything is sealed and secured.

Quote:
Also, another random topic on Van dines and Knox's rules. Wouldn't one say that it's technically fantasy? Supernatural rules are being enforced on the criminal in either to keep him in check in the tale, however, we of real life know that these rules have little chance of applying. It's impossible to simply have rules laid out to you in order to have all forms of reasoning possible. It's a supernatural set of rules, made to prevent supernatural events from screwing up the facts and logic process that can influence a mystery. No supernatural agencies can be used as a detective technique, even though that rule itself limits the detective for no reason? Sounds supernatural to me.
No. The rule against supernatural reasoning and rulesets only applies to the inside of the narrative, such as the detective talking to the ghost of the victim to learn who was murdered. You're also neglecting that Bern's game is deliberately simplified to where it doesn't even have a narrator.

Lambdadelta and Bernkastel represent incredulous luck and inescapable certainty; I don't see what the big deal is; if some writer's rules can be represented without needing a physical, tangible vessel, why can't the godlike jackasses who stand over the rest of the entire narrative?

Beatrice formed her own magical grimoire; but she wanted Lambdadelta to "acknowledge" her as legit.
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Old 2011-05-11, 20:59   Link #22737
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Originally Posted by cronnoponno View Post
I know it's a bit of a crazy argument, but George could have possibly been the culprit. If Maria is not a culprit, she wasn't lying about George being able to kill a kid, but ''George is good with kids''. Is there really no suspicion in why Maria said that?
Sorry, I haven't had time to read the whole thread fully, but I remember I solved the puzzle quite differently. It's been a few months and I don't remember my reasoning, only that I worked it out like this:

I worked out that it's possible for George and Maria to be the culprits with 2 of the parents running around. Meta-Battler shot down this theory with the assumption that the kids wouldn't kill their own parents, but I saw no rule about this. I mean... *maybe*, but I approached this more of a logic puzzle that could totally portray characters differently.


So, what happened is that Maria killed Rosa, possibly with a poisoned pin to the neck, the method doesn't matter except only that it could be done while pretending to be holding the parents. Same with George, I think I worked out that he killed both his parents secretly. (I suspected that the scene with the children crying over their parents was a possible point where they could be killed.)

In addition, Maria killed Shannon, despite Meta-Battler and Beatrice reasoning that 'she couldn't possibly have.' Their reasoning was that she couldn't have overpowered Shannon and that may be true if this were more of a novel, but as it was more of a logic puzzle, that sort of reasoning should be beyond the bounds of the rules.

Finally, when Meta-Battler started counting the minimum number of people to have survived, he came up with 3. I started figuring out the maximum number of people to be four. So a George/Maria + 2 Parents solution isn't automatically counted out.


I'd need to go over the rules to verify this is true, but because of this, I thought that there was a hole in the puzzle.
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Old 2011-05-11, 22:12   Link #22738
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Quote:
So, what happened is that Maria killed Rosa, possibly with a poisoned pin to the neck, the method doesn't matter except only that it could be done while pretending to be holding the parents. Same with George, I think I worked out that he killed both his parents secretly. (I suspected that the scene with the children crying over their parents was a possible point where they could be killed.)
If Maria is able to kill people then George is lying, but that would make him a culprit. This isn't possible.

Quote:
In addition, Maria killed Shannon, despite Meta-Battler and Beatrice reasoning that 'she couldn't possibly have.' Their reasoning was that she couldn't have overpowered Shannon and that may be true if this were more of a novel, but as it was more of a logic puzzle, that sort of reasoning should be beyond the bounds of the rules.
Maria can't kill anyone.
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Old 2011-05-11, 22:43   Link #22739
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No Twilight, I was saying the fact that there are supernatural rules made to help pinpoint the culprit easier, that technically is a form of supernatural power helping the detective. If there is a house, that literally has 20 secret passages, and some ''absoloute'' power made only 1 count, that would be fiction and mystery regardless of how realistic the narrative and story is. I'm not saying Van dines and Knox's rules suck, I think they're very reasonable and make perfect sense, but in real life they just wouldn't work. Hence, they can technically be fantasy.


Since servants can't be the culprit, due to the rules, that makes a supernatural force make it able to confirmed that, unless their job as a servant is questionable, they are not the culprit. My point is that these rules themselves make mystery unreal, no matter how justifiable they are, they are a supernatural set of rules made to prevent supernatural(or anti-climactic, stupid events) stuff from happening that can ruin the heart of the mystery.

And as for George, he doesn't have to kill Ange, it could be anyone so long as it was a child. It's a devils proof.
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Old 2011-05-11, 22:51   Link #22740
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I think you are reaching one of the most important points, imo, of all of Umineko.

Making us realize that both fantasy and mystery are fictions and based on rules that are very different from reality.
None are _really_ realistic.
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