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Old 2011-06-08, 20:15   Link #22841
ErenselTheJester
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Originally Posted by Bluemail View Post
Was Beatrice's weakness to mirrors such a lead!?
Yes, it was.
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Old 2011-06-12, 21:48   Link #22842
cronnoponno
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Um, hey, wait. In Episode 2, Kanon was hiding behind a thicket and saw Maria getting slapped by Rosa, then talked to Maria after, awhile later Rosa goes looking for Maria(Kanon is gone) and Beatrice suddenly comes after Maria is sure she will come. Beatrice then tells Maria to close her eyes....throws her broken candy in the air and repairs it.


So, did Kanon say that he was possessed by Beatrice(Yasu whatever you get my point), hide in the bushes to don' her Beatrice suit, whilst Rosa comes, which would back up why Maria persisted that Beatrice would come.

So for the part where she repairs the broken candy, it said Maria already had plenty, and she even gave Beatrice one that wasn't broken. Maria had her eyes closed, so she couldn't see it. But if Rosa was a culprit.....she could fake her perspective to make it seem like she threw it up in the air and used magic on it, and rather just didn't try to crush Maria's dreams and tell her she gave her the spare one?

Do I got that right so far? In fact, she might not have even had to be a culprit.
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Old 2011-06-12, 22:48   Link #22843
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Originally Posted by cronnoponno View Post
Um, hey, wait. In Episode 2, Kanon was hiding behind a thicket and saw Maria getting slapped by Rosa, then talked to Maria after, awhile later Rosa goes looking for Maria(Kanon is gone) and Beatrice suddenly comes after Maria is sure she will come. Beatrice then tells Maria to close her eyes....throws her broken candy in the air and repairs it.


So, did Kanon say that he was possessed by Beatrice(Yasu whatever you get my point), hide in the bushes to don' her Beatrice suit, whilst Rosa comes, which would back up why Maria persisted that Beatrice would come.

So for the part where she repairs the broken candy, it said Maria already had plenty, and she even gave Beatrice one that wasn't broken. Maria had her eyes closed, so she couldn't see it. But if Rosa was a culprit.....she could fake her perspective to make it seem like she threw it up in the air and used magic on it, and rather just didn't try to crush Maria's dreams and tell her she gave her the spare one?

Do I got that right so far? In fact, she might not have even had to be a culprit.
I believe that's right. Rosa crushes the candy. Kanon offers to replace it, but Maria refuses. Kanon says "Well lemme go find Beatrice or something", possibly has a bout as Shannon (who appeared to serve the adults tea, in this window of time), returns later as Beato to repair the candy.

Rosa doesn't need to be a culprit, you're right - she makes a serious claim to have met Beatrice during dinner, but it can't be said for certain whether she was "recruited" at that point (as Kyrie almost certainly was), or just really serious about protecting Maria's feelings.

I think it's also the common reading that "dress Beato" represents pure metaphor, while "Suit Beato", with the fashionista boots + coat + miniskirt getup, represents a human Beatrice - that is, Culprit-San being physically present and taking an action. Suit-Beato only really fixes the candy and greets Kyrie in EP2, and gives Battler's quiz in EP4, so I think that's pretty reasonable.
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Old 2011-06-13, 00:09   Link #22844
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I would almost certainly say that that "Casual Beato" represents a physica, human presence. When the two aspects are separated, Elder Beato (casual wear) is trying to affirm her assistance with human-vouched actions. Similarly, Suit Beato has pretty much absolutely zero Meta-existence.
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Old 2011-06-13, 17:40   Link #22845
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I already posted the link in the merchandise thread, but I thought here would be the most fitting place, as here are the most people who read through the whole series.
So I translated a discussion between someone who attempted to solve Umineko and Ryűkishi07 that was included in the published version of that solution. I hope it's okay to post it, because I think it gives some nice ideas and insights...even though Ryűkishi says he doesn't want to answer things, there are some pretty interesting confirmations.

So here's the link to my blog where I posted it (as it's to long for a forum post anyway)
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Old 2011-06-13, 19:59   Link #22846
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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
I already posted the link in the merchandise thread, but I thought here would be the most fitting place, as here are the most people who read through the whole series.
So I translated a discussion between someone who attempted to solve Umineko and Ryűkishi07 that was included in the published version of that solution. I hope it's okay to post it, because I think it gives some nice ideas and insights...even though Ryűkishi says he doesn't want to answer things, there are some pretty interesting confirmations.

So here's the link to my blog where I posted it (as it's to long for a forum post anyway)
Woah, this is really nice, thank you ^^! Took me a very long time to read this but it does explain a lot

Interesting deal with Maria's name, I feel a little bad for her now XD "Even though he had prepared such a wonderful name for his sweet, sweet granddaughter, she got such a dumb-ass name"
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Old 2011-06-13, 21:18   Link #22847
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*Reads.*

FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF- Well atleast people will shut up about Kyrie and Rudolf being the culprits. Though MULTIPLE PERSONALITIES DO NOT WORK THAT WAY, RYUKISHI.

I liked how he totally confirmed that Yasu's cliff incident had to do with her genitals, though. Thank god we can put that to rest.
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Old 2011-06-13, 21:41   Link #22848
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You can tell when he's trying to deflect some questions, but sometimes he gives out information that he really didn't need to give with such gusto that you can almost tell that he's saying "this is the way I wanted it".

The information about Eva in EP3 in regards to her actions is very good. I always felt like she committed some of the murders in the story (maybe in "prime" as well) out of what she thought where just actions. She killed off people she though where the culprits, including Battler in the final scene, only to later find out that they where most likely innocent.

Grief stricken by her actions she decides to raise Ange as her own to try and atone for her sins. But it still doesn't explain why she's covering for someone. Sure she would have to admit that she killed some of them, but by now she should have known that most people thought she killed everyone in the island. I cant see how she would willingly shoulder the blame after knowing someone else murdered most of her family.

Also Yoshiya's and Sayo's name have meanings, I still think they are religious allusions. This story had to many symbolism to just glance off.
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Old 2011-06-13, 23:50   Link #22849
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My running theory is that Rudolf and Rudolf killed Yasu, and Eva saw that without knowing Yasu was the killer and blew their brains out, before realizing "Wait, shit."

So she kept her mouth shut.
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Old 2011-06-14, 00:03   Link #22850
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haaah... that was a good read!

Right now I'm using a theory that doesn't rely on Yasu's multiple personalities and I don't know if he confirmed it or not...
But did he?
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Old 2011-06-14, 00:19   Link #22851
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He basically did, since he keeps bringing up stuff like software/hardware metaphors and "You're right, Shannon wouldn't kill George, but what if the Shannon personality isn't in control? The clothes don't make the identity."
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Old 2011-06-14, 00:33   Link #22852
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Ah I see. I didn't see the last sentence on that one stating, "...but there is the possibility that it was another person, when she started asking questions about George."

Though I still think a single personality Yasu can exist based from Maria's lines in the Musou Rosa scene and her actions in EP7; but I'm glad he confirmed it so I have a target to shoot at least on that part :P
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Old 2011-06-14, 00:49   Link #22853
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Originally Posted by Rattan View Post
Though I still think a single personality Yasu can exist based from Maria's lines in the Musou Rosa scene and her actions in EP7; but I'm glad he confirmed it so I have a target to shoot at least on that part :P
I think it's quite possible that there really was only Yasu in the end, it doesn't have to be multiple personalities in the sense of the mental illness.
She downloaded the Shannon personality to interact with certain people, but because it was in that role that she started to fall in love with George. That's why Beatrice (Yasu as a witch) and Shannon (who is a whole different role than Beatrice) are always bickering about love.
For me it's an inner struggle of Yasu who didn't know whom to love. Of course the decision to love is in a way the decision for one certain role....so on a "psychological gameboard" it could be represented through her shifting into another personality and then killing George.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma
You can tell when he's trying to deflect some questions, but sometimes he gives out information that he really didn't need to give with such gusto that you can almost tell that he's saying "this is the way I wanted it".
I felt quite bad for Ryűkishi at certain parts, because you can feel how he wanted Umineko to be an interactional experience for himself and the readers, but nothing much came back instead of bickering and insults about how he didn't do what he was supposed to do. So on the one hand he really wants to protect that interpretational margin, but on the other hand he wants certain parts to be understood in a way he thought would be totally obvious (I still don't know why KEIYA didn't get the wound as a genital wound at first...it was the first thing I thought of).

And by the way he's talking about it, I'm really sad we never got tho experience Land of the Golden Witch. Would have been nice if it had become a real hardcore orthodox mystery. ^^°
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Old 2011-06-14, 04:15   Link #22854
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Well atleast people will shut up about Kyrie and Rudolf being the culprits.
Is it really all right for you though? Going by what Ryuukishi said it seems almost confirmed that Yasu did it in the end, and that's what you always tried to deny (me too actually).


Anyway I find funny how the only thing he straightforwardedly spinned the beans about is something that noone (that I know of) ever thought about.

I'm talking about the "4th 5th and 6th" twilight of EP2. Even Keia was surprised.
Sure the trick of the well was pretty obvious in EP4 a lot of us understood that, but to think that that was the solution of this particular crime. Will's "solution" didn't help at all, at best it simply affirmed that everyone inside the room was really dead (but that's far from being a solution).

Still I'm not sure I understand well the setting but I'm skeptical about such trick actually working in a real scenario. If the gap was small as I would expect the gun would easily stuck, if it was too wide it would stand out.

Also I'd need to think it was at least a small gun (that was never seen or mentioned) to even consider the possibility because the winchesters are really too big.

I also go by the assumption that Shannon killed George and Gohda with the gun and only later inserted the stakes in the wounds, because it would be too retarded otherwise.

So three gunshots in total. I guess that the Mansion has pretty thick walls. That or Battler is deaf. And yet the gunshot at the end of EP1 was heard pretty clearly.


btw was it chronotrig who insisted that that corpse wasn't Shannon's?


That apart from the whole interview I didn't detect any hint about a fake serial murder plot, from neither side. But without it I really can't explain how could so many people go along with Yasu's insane plan.

Also the speculation that the tragedy would have been averted if only Battler groped Shannon's fake boobs is confirmed!
Stupid Jessica...
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Old 2011-06-14, 07:05   Link #22855
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
So three gunshots in total. I guess that the Mansion has pretty thick walls. That or Battler is deaf. And yet the gunshot at the end of EP1 was heard pretty clearly.
The gunshot in Episode 1 was one door away. The gunshot in Episode 2 was halfway across the mansion. And I think that bedrooms are likely to be soundproofed, especially in an expensive building.
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Old 2011-06-14, 09:36   Link #22856
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In Episode 1, Battler clearly said that the Mansion was in far worse condition than it looked(not a direct quote, but he said that with time the Mansion has gotten pretty worn out or something like that).

Not sure if that effects hearing gunshots through the walls.


Btw, does this mystery really use the Van Dine's rules? After all, Battler was never introduced to them, however he found out the truth(even though it wasn't exactly confirmed it follows Knox either). Meaning, the stuff that Van Dine's prohibits that is not in the decalogue might be a really big hint?

Gonna read this interview later.
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Old 2011-06-14, 09:44   Link #22857
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Originally Posted by cronnoponno View Post
In Episode 1, Battler clearly said that the Mansion was in far worse condition than it looked(not a direct quote, but he said that with time the Mansion has gotten pretty worn out or something like that).

Not sure if that effects hearing gunshots through the walls.
We also have to consider what went on at the very same time.
Genji was probably busy detaining Rosa and Battler, as he probably lead them outside to take a look at Nanjô's and Kumasawa's corpse when Shannon killed Gohda and George in Natsuhi's room upstairs. Through the rain and wind it was probably impossible to hear the gunshots explicitly.
It's a pretty good explanation for why Genji decided that exact moment to reveal the corpses, when it's clear that he conspired with Shannon/Yasu in the scene where "Kanon" killed those two. If we think outside the witch illusion, he might have known the whereabout of the corpses all along.

Quote:
Btw, does this mystery really use the Van Dine's rules?
It's actually mentioned in the interview how Ryűkishi thought of and used the Van Dine Rules. So I'll leave it to you to read that.
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Old 2011-06-14, 13:19   Link #22858
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Is it really all right for you though? Going by what Ryuukishi said it seems almost confirmed that Yasu did it in the end, and that's what you always tried to deny (me too actually).
Yea, I'm upset about that. But I enjoy other people losing more than myself winning. He did atleast confirm that Yasu wanted someone to stop her, so it's not quite so bad.

Also, he confirmed that Halloween Santa Kinzo is canon so ALL IS FORGIVEN FOREVER.

Quote:
It's actually mentioned in the interview how Ryűkishi thought of and used the Van Dine Rules. So I'll leave it to you to read that.
He also says that most of Van Dine's rules are cut down, and that the "servants can't be the culprit" rule was a red herring. So.
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Old 2011-06-14, 14:12   Link #22859
Renall
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General somewhat snarky thoughts:
Spoiler:
So my fundamental question is: What's up with Nanjo and George? He seems awfully cagey about those two even though nothing ever came of them, at least as far as he's willing to admit...

For example, look at this part:
Spoiler for Speculation on the scorpion charm:
Only one? There wasn't only one person who knew about that rule... in fact, it's overlooking one person who did know about it who had no reason to.
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Old 2011-06-14, 14:19   Link #22860
Jan-Poo
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Also, he confirmed that Halloween Santa Kinzo is canon so ALL IS FORGIVEN FOREVER.
Yeah but I'm very dissatisfied by Ryuukishi's answer to Keia, who btw forgot that we also have Kinzo own words that he doesn't like Maria.

Of course that Kinzo is an illusion, but so goes for everyone, including the Kinzo shown in Ep8. If we can't at least trust that the game master of the various stories at least tried to portray the real nature of the people involved then it's as if we don't know anything about anyone. Jessica could be a refined lady, George could be a demented slob (actually...), Maria could be an impressively level headed child and so on.

It's kind of disappointing. Kinzo was unfairly portrayed as a family hater for 7 episodes just because.


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He also says that most of Van Dine's rules are cut down, and that the "servants can't be the culprit" rule was a red herring. So.
Yeah that's what he said really. The Van Dine rules were almost completely disregarded except for the few that were mentioned. The reason is that even Van Dine rules cannot defeat "love".

As for the servant rule I think that Ryuukishi basically confirmed what I always thought, he wanted to challenge those that already understood that "it was Shannon" because thinking that "it was Shannon" is not quite the truth.

In other words while "it was Shannon" isn't completely incorrect, you still need to understand that "Shannon" is just a fake persona, and the real person behind the mask isn't a servant but the goddamn head of the family.

Quote:
Only one? There wasn't only one person who knew about that rule... in fact, it's overlooking one person who did know about it who had no reason to.
That's exactly what I thought. Plus there was absolutely no telling on who could have known about scorpion charms and their properties. Since this isn't something that Maria simply came up with, you could speculate that anyone knew that. Or rather it was a given that the culprit knew that, whoever he was. It would have been a pretty stupid assumption to think that then the culprit must have been one who was shown knowing that stuff.

But hell don't let me get started on all the wrong things that I found in that interview. It's so freaking long if I had to comment it all I'd have to write a book.
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