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Old 2011-06-29, 12:23   Link #22981
Jan-Poo
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You know the problem is that once Ange returned to Battler they had this conversation:

Quote:

Battler: 「………な。」

Ange: 「………………。」

Battler: 「真実なんて、……大したもんじゃなかっただろ。」

Ange: 「………うん。……お兄ちゃんは、……こんなにも、……温かな世界でずっと、……私の帰りを待っててくれた のに、………私だけがずっと、……背を向けていたから……。」

Battler: 「お前は、真実を知ってしまった。

Ange: 「……………うん…。」
And if I had some doubt that Battler knew that the book actually contained the truth, after this I had none.
Both of them acknowledge that what Ange saw was the truth even after Ange realizes that she was wrong.
They are pretty clear here in my opinion, Ange learned the truth, the truth she was looking for and that was something she was better off not knowing.

I therefore see no explanation as to why he previously told Ange that the truth didn't exist and she could never get what she wanted. Even if that was a metaphor it was really the wrong time to be cryptic.

The only thing that I can get from all this is that Battler didn't want Ange to read that book and that he doesn't think that learning the truth is important at all.

I agree with you, however, that the "truth" of that book was probably cold and only showing the negative side of the whole story, but yet it must be the truth.

I think that's why Meta-Eva called it "garbage".

Probably eva and evatrice represent two conflict sides in Eva, from one side she wanted Ange to know, from the other she didn't... who knows...


As for Tohya... well we know that he was amnesiac and there is no certainty that the diary actually existed in the real world if you ask me. The whole scene where Featherinne is supposed to show the diary to the world is filled with magic, and the story that she somehow ended up getting hold of that diary even though she never had any relation with Eva stinks of a lie a mile away.
I tend to think that it never really happened in the real world.

In addition when Ange and Tohya meet I think tohya clearly said that he doesn't remember anything of what happened in those two day. Well it would really be a smartass statement if what he meant was that he technically didn't "remember" but he read the truth in Eva's diary.
I prefer to think that he doesn't know.
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Old 2011-06-29, 13:08   Link #22982
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Despite what Beatrice said however Battler always said that there was something more important than the truth and that "the truth you are looking for doesn't exist, the inside of the catbox is empty".
This sentence was aimed at Erika though, if I recall.
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Old 2011-06-29, 13:25   Link #22983
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Krauss and Natsuhi do not know Yasu's true identity either.
I don't know if I'd agree fully there, though of course it's only my ow interpretation of things. Of course they probably didn't know the full extent of Yasu's plan and existence, probably only Genji did that...maybe Nanj˘ to a certain extent. But considering that they call down the "head of the family" during EP4, where that person summons 3 bunnies who we know represent guns which are in the possession of Yasu...and the fact that "Beatrice" helped Natsuhi cover up the death of Kinz˘ by creating "the illusion of Kinz˘ within a magical barrier of a locked room", I think we can assume that they were at least in some contact with Yasu.
They might not have known about her existence as "the child of Kinz˘ who Natsuhi pushed down a cliff and the true heir of the fortune of Ushiromiya". But they seemed to be working together close enough to warrant Yasu some free time to write some 10-20 pages full of strange diary entries describing a serial murder.

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
They are pretty clear here in my opinion, Ange learned the truth, the truth she was looking for and that was something she was better off not knowing.

I therefore see no explanation as to why he previously told Ange that the truth didn't exist and she could never get what she wanted. Even if that was a metaphor it was really the wrong time to be cryptic.
I think it's actually not about being cryptic, but implying something that he also said about the readers during the interview I translated recently.

Ange, as well as Bern, Erika and the witch hunters did not want to know "The Truth", they wanted to know "their truth".
For Ange it was truth she formulated inside her heart and mind when she began a journey. That a terrible witch (a horrible person X) killed her family and made her miserable. The chance that someone she loved might be responsible for the tragedy was never even something she considered being a possible truth. Therefore she will never find truth within the catbox but will only be left with nothingness.

We saw it when she read the objective truth. It destroyed her and it hurt her so much, that she was unable to accept it as truth. So much even that she had to formulate a golden truth within her heart...something that was maybe different from the facts but was still truth.
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Old 2011-06-29, 14:31   Link #22984
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
This sentence was aimed at Erika though, if I recall.
Nope he says that to Ange, btw I just noticed that it was already translated:

Quote:
Battler: "The truth of 1986 doesn't exist. The cat box is empty inside. ......You're looking for something that isn't there."

Ange: "......Hmph. I won't be tricked anymore. ......The truth of that day does exist. ......It was written down by the sole survivor and preserved to this very day!"

Battler's expression faltered for just an instant, and Ange didn't miss it. So he was hiding it after all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
I think it's actually not about being cryptic, but implying something that he also said about the readers during the interview I translated recently.

Ange, as well as Bern, Erika and the witch hunters did not want to know "The Truth", they wanted to know "their truth".
For Ange it was truth she formulated inside her heart and mind when she began a journey. That a terrible witch (a horrible person X) killed her family and made her miserable. The chance that someone she loved might be responsible for the tragedy was never even something she considered being a possible truth. Therefore she will never find truth within the catbox but will only be left with nothingness.

We saw it when she read the objective truth. It destroyed her and it hurt her so much, that she was unable to accept it as truth. So much even that she had to formulate a golden truth within her heart...something that was maybe different from the facts but was still truth.
Not saying things in a straightforward manner is what "being cryptic" means. If what Battler meant to say is what you think, he shouldn't have said "the truth of 1986 doesn't exist", or "the catbox is empty". Ange was visibly upset at the time, you don't talk in riddles to people that are upset, unless you purposedly don't want them to understand.

Something like "the truth in that diary is not what you think it is, it will only cause you sadness" would have been a lot better. Battler's words choice only reinforced Ange's idea that he was lying.

But you know, given Battler's total loss of words once Ange told him she knew that the truth was in the book pretty much convinces me that he was actually lying.
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Old 2011-06-29, 14:36   Link #22985
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I don't know if I'd agree fully there, though of course it's only my ow interpretation of things. Of course they probably didn't know the full extent of Yasu's plan and existence, probably only Genji did that...maybe Nanj˘ to a certain extent. But considering that they call down the "head of the family" during EP4, where that person summons 3 bunnies who we know represent guns which are in the possession of Yasu...and the fact that "Beatrice" helped Natsuhi cover up the death of Kinz˘ by creating "the illusion of Kinz˘ within a magical barrier of a locked room", I think we can assume that they were at least in some contact with Yasu.
They might not have known about her existence as "the child of Kinz˘ who Natsuhi pushed down a cliff and the true heir of the fortune of Ushiromiya". But they seemed to be working together close enough to warrant Yasu some free time to write some 10-20 pages full of strange diary entries describing a serial murder.
That's a bit different from what you were implying. There's strong evidence that Yasu reveals herself to....well, just about everyone on the night of the conference for her plans, such as in EP2 where she pretty clearly reveals her true nature to all of the adults except Rosa (and even then clearly did so off-screen considering she knows about Kinzo's death).

Quote:
Nope he says that to Ange, btw I just noticed that it was already translated:
You're right, i think I'm getting my lines mixed up. I've gotta learn to stop multitasking on forums.

Anyway, I still stand by my idea that Battler is defensive because he's literally unable to tell her.
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Old 2011-06-29, 17:51   Link #22986
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Devil's Advocate Fuck You Theory: Yasu survived the Rokkenjima incident, wrote the message bottles, tossed them into the water, and committed suicide.
Why is that last part even necessary? Never know... It's not like red means a damn thing.

Anyway, the content of what Ange sees is somewhat dependent on what the thing she reads actually is. I mean, if it's a strict R-Prime narrative by Eva regarding her experience on those two days, it by necessity is going to be a somewhat limited narrative. It will be the truth, to the extent that Eva saw it and will be able to communicate it. That is, assuming Eva is reliable (to some extent) it will be observationally accurate; if Eva saw Yasu and Battler dragging a corpse somewhere or saw Kyrie shoot Rosa or whatever else she actually observed, that probably actually did happen. However, we have to assume Eva is not one of the parties privy to most of the background information swirling about Rokkenjima, so things she actually saw might lead her to draw the wrong conclusions or simply leave her uncertain.

I can entirely see why she'd be conflicted about sharing that sort of thing with Ange. On the one hand, as the only survivor (that she knows of), she knows that only the things she saw can tell the "real story" to any extent at all. Imperfect information might be better than no information. On the other hand, if Eva began to doubt that she actually understood what was going on she might be conflicted about sharing the conclusions she may have drawn in the diary, particularly if they were made at a time when her thoughts were racing and her behavior was erratic.

Given this, Ange would be reading a source which is factually true but which might present, depending on what Eva actually happened to see, something which Ange is not going to understand because Eva didn't fully understand it either.

Assume for a second Battler is aware of this. His warning to Ange makes some degree of sense here. I mean, we have to assume whoever Eva met during those two days wasn't like "By the way, here's what's been going on the whole time, and also this is why I'm killing everybody I can. Allow me to give you a quick rundown of everything." There's no question Ange would learn information which she did not know. But she probably wouldn't get the A-to-Z comprehensive explanation of everything that happened and everything that mattered. Why would she? Eva wouldn't know any of that. There would still be room for Ange to draw her own conclusions and reinterpret the evidence as she wishes.

In that sense, is it wrong to say "the catbox is empty?" The whole mistaken interpretation of the Schroedinger argument is predicated on the idea of scientific observation. You have a box, you close the box, later you open the box and look inside and document the results. In the case of Rokkenjima in 1986, it's more like the box exploded and the remains were fed through an industrial shredder. If a person happened to show up one day with a skin flake from the cat that they snuck out of the box before it blew up, well, that's some kind of information, but it's not quite the same as opening the box right before it blew.

Battler clearly doesn't mean the box is literally empty, as that would be implying that there never was any information at all. That's not true. He means something more along the lines of "you can't ever open it." That is, whatever information may be contained within it is inaccessible, and from his perspective it's irrelevant what it actually is for that reason. To some extent he knows that it's wrong, inasmuch as there actually exists information that was taken from "inside the box." However, it's (potentially) misleading information. Therefore, from his anti-truth standpoint he's pretty much arguing that no information is better than possibly misinterpreted information.

Ange seems to place value on knowing the information simply because it's the only information she's going to get. Eva and Battler have their own opinions as to whether this is a good idea. I'd argue myself that it definitely is, but that's more of a moral or ethical question than a narrative one; Ange could have gone either way depending on what would've given her the most closure. I don't think not knowing was going to do that for her though.
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Old 2011-06-29, 19:08   Link #22987
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I would agree with most of the things you said, except to small points I'd like to raise. (I'm just now rereading in order to refresh some memories and draw a (first) final conclusion for myself)
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Ange is not going to understand because Eva didn't fully understand it either.
I think Eva knew more than you suppose she's capable of and that's because of one little item she seemed to possess. I'm still waiting for how it is depicted in the manga version (though considering that Ryűkishi also said that he's observing the adaptions closer this time I have some confidence) but Eva did possess the ring of headship in 1998.
So whoever had the ring during those 2 days on the island, Eva either got it by solving the Epitaph (which would mean she learned a whole lot from Yasu) or she took it from the one who solved the epitaph/killed Yasu...but both would get her rather close towards both the actual truth and the information behind the events.

Eva also cannot have escaped by accident because it was made clear that the only way to reach Kuwadorian during the typhoon would be the hidden underground path. The door to that is in the back of the underground chamber...so she must have had that knowledge as well.
So probably her knowledge of the events goes quite far...

Quote:
In the case of Rokkenjima in 1986, it's more like the box exploded and the remains were fed through an industrial shredder.
I would like to propose my own metaphor, though it might only be a matter of how to portray a thought.
I think you can say the catbox is still intact, but the content provides no logical answer to the questions you asked. You are told there was a cat which jumped in there and when opening it you found dust, a piece of a cat's ear and a rusty nail...
18 people went into that box, but only one person came out, you found a piece of another and some items that you never expected to turn up (like a magical stake, letters, a hidden mansion and so on).

One of the biggest problems is, we never even put that content in there ourselves, we just believe it was in there in the first place. We are handed the box, we have reason to believe that those things that are said to be inside existed at some point in time...but maybe they fell beside the box when somebody poured it all in, or the person putting them into the box had a malicious intent and did not put it all in there.
Well in the end that's the dillemma of a detective...he's not the one who created the box (which would be the culprit in the most ideal conflict scenario) but he's the one who opens it and has to make sense of it's content no matter how far removed it is from what he was told.
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Old 2011-06-29, 19:44   Link #22988
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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
I think Eva knew more than you suppose she's capable of and that's because of one little item she seemed to possess. I'm still waiting for how it is depicted in the manga version (though considering that Ryűkishi also said that he's observing the adaptions closer this time I have some confidence) but Eva did possess the ring of headship in 1998.
So whoever had the ring during those 2 days on the island, Eva either got it by solving the Epitaph (which would mean she learned a whole lot from Yasu) or she took it from the one who solved the epitaph/killed Yasu...but both would get her rather close towards both the actual truth and the information behind the events.

Eva also cannot have escaped by accident because it was made clear that the only way to reach Kuwadorian during the typhoon would be the hidden underground path. The door to that is in the back of the underground chamber...so she must have had that knowledge as well.
So probably her knowledge of the events goes quite far...
Not necessarily. Episode 3 shows quite easily how Eva could solve the epitaph and somehow manage not to learn quite so much as we'd figure she'd need to. Did she meet Yasu underground? Possibly, but who knows? Did someone hand her the ring, or did she find or steal/recover it? Does she know who was "supposed" to have it? Did she find out about the Kinzo deception?

It's possible she knows a lot, and it's possible she knows very little. But even if she met Yasu, learned all about whatever she was willing to tell her, got the ring and learned all about what was going on, if Yasu wasn't the killer, then Eva would've been just as surprised as everybody else when murders started happening. Particularly if the next thing she sees of somebody is, say, Kyrie brandishing a gun or something. She'd have to fill in the blanks mentally, and because she can only be in one place at a time, Eva's narrative by necessity will have blanks. It can't not, unless all 16-18 people were standing around in the same room as each other the whole time everything went down.
Quote:
One of the biggest problems is, we never even put that content in there ourselves, we just believe it was in there in the first place. We are handed the box, we have reason to believe that those things that are said to be inside existed at some point in time...but maybe they fell beside the box when somebody poured it all in, or the person putting them into the box had a malicious intent and did not put it all in there.
Or they "fell out" with the other objects as the person was emptying the box. Kind of a stretch to apply sleight of hand to the metaphor, but I think you see where I'm going with this. How much of this "evidence" was actually there?
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Old 2011-06-30, 06:44   Link #22989
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Did someone hand her the ring, or did she find or steal/recover it? Does she know who was "supposed" to have it? Did she find out about the Kinzo deception?
Yes, of course you are right whe doubting the extent of Eva's backgroud knowledge. But in the end, when the author tells us through a meta-author that what Eva witnessed and wrote down was "the truth of the Rokkenjima serial murder case" then it is just that within the narrative.
Maybe that really tells us, that beyond the preparation for the events Yasu, the witch legend and everything concerning the tragedy of the past, she really had nothing to do with the actual murders at all.

Maybe it really did happen similar to what we saw in Bernkastel's reasoning. Like she said 「それは全て真実・・・とは限らない。」, "All of that is the truth...is something that does not necessarily have to be so.", it does not have to be all true, but it is probably pretty close to what happened.
We know that Battler wasn't killed, he at least had contact with someone who told him about the hidden tunnels, the gold and Yasu (he probably even had that meeting at the balcony)...but there is probably some truth in what Bern reconstructed.

Eva's knowledge won't be complete, but it will probably protray what happened without the intent to cover anything up...at least it is painted that way in the narrative. And those narrative keypoints are something we have to accept if we want the puzzle to be solvable.

Quote:
Kind of a stretch to apply sleight of hand to the metaphor, but I think you see where I'm going with this. How much of this "evidence" was actually there?
Of course the metaphor is inconsistent here and there, but I think we agree there. We can't be sure what is real evidence and what is fake, what is a lie and what is truth...we probably don't even have a culprit anymore who could confess to his crimes.
Well...this is anti-mystery at it's finest I'd say
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Old 2011-06-30, 08:17   Link #22990
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My point is more that even if Eva's account is 100% honest and truthful, it will only have value inasmuch as it relates to the things Eva saw and heard herself, and then only to a point.

Just as a random example, let's say once the murders began Eva never saw George or Battler again. She knows that everyone else has turned up dead, but she can't find either one of them. Let's say Eva then escapes, having never again seen so much as a sign of either of them. Eva knows that, say, Maria (to use a silly example by intent) is the killer. What she never knows is, did Maria kill George and Battler too? Were George or Battler helping Maria? Did they escape? Did something else happen?

If she doesn't know, at best she can be honest and at worst she can draw a conclusion that isn't properly supported, even if it's reasonable. For example, she might conclude that Battler and George were both killed or died in the blast, simply because she's never seen any evidence since that they survived and reasonably believes they didn't. She can communicate this to Ange, but Ange can't draw any better conclusion, unless she has more information than Eva does. If she bumped into Battler or George on the street, for instance, obviously she'd know that they must have survived after Eva lost track of them.

"The truth of the incident" may well mean that Eva learned who killed everyone, or why the blast was set off. But I'd venture to say she probably has some significant gaps in her story simply because she couldn't be everywhere at once. If you're Meta-Battler, there's at least some reason to believe that those gaps could wind up twisting the story the wrong way (even if Eva never intended that to happen). I don't agree with him, but at least you can kind of see his point.
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Old 2011-06-30, 14:30   Link #22991
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
You know the problem is that once Ange returned to Battler they had this conversation:

Probably eva and evatrice represent two conflict sides in Eva, from one side she wanted Ange to know, from the other she didn't... who knows...
Beatrice exists to hide the truth of what really happened - she redirects all the blame onto herself. Similarly, Eva-Beatrice also exists to hide the truth and draw all the blame onto Eva (even if she may be guilty of some things, she isn't guilty of all the murders).

Idle train of thought: Ange is the only other one referred to as "X-Beatrice", or at least has the potential to become Ange-Beatrice if she keeps believing in "magic" (if I recall correctly). Is this because she has the final power to hide the truth forever?
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Old 2011-06-30, 14:41   Link #22992
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Basically. Ange is the only one being given the 'right' to find the truth or deny it due to being the last Ushiromiya. She still has the 'Beatrice' title when she denies magic, so it's just a thing.
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Old 2011-06-30, 14:43   Link #22993
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Devil's Advocate Fuck You Theory: Yasu survived the Rokkenjima incident, wrote the message bottles, tossed them into the water, and committed suicide.
My god - WHY HAVE I NOT CONSIDERED THIS BEFORE ?!

Really, this is an idea that provides answers, and still kind of works, thematically. From what I know of EP8, I HAD entertained the thought that "Actually, maybe alot of people survived and they just went away to live new lives, because why not, and it's sad to think they all died." I'd always kind of excluded Yasu from that for some reason. And if Battler can "die" in that amnesia gets rid of the person that was there, Yasu can pull some internal self-perception shenanigans, too, sure...

Damn ... Yasu surviving is probably the best explanation for the message bottles I've heard. XD
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Old 2011-06-30, 14:46   Link #22994
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Old 2011-06-30, 15:02   Link #22995
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As you said Kealym, anyone can survive since the red is worthless; that's kind of the problem. There's no particular reason why more survivors are impossible, as there exist several avenues for a person to survive without being observed:
  • They were at Kuwadorian, but trying not to be found. This assumes there are perhaps some hard-to-search or easily-overlooked places there, but it's not implausible. Eva was supposedly found there, but as far as we know she wanted to be located.
  • They were somewhere else on the island and hid from police searches. A densely-forested, largely-inaccessible, rather remote island with one of its two docks destroyed is a pretty easy place to hide in. The police would be so overcome by the devastation near the mansion they probably wouldn't think it likely anyone was hiding in the forest. Whether or how this person would have left the island is another matter entirely.
  • They escaped through some heretofore-unnoticed or unmentioned escape mechanism. Battler did this, apparently. While it's somewhat unlikely there are more escape methods than the one Battler found, it's possible, and even if there aren't, nothing specifically precludes Battler leaving with somebody else. After all, he wouldn't remember it.
  • They died, but died after the incident and were never located and thus presumed lost in the blast. This is incredibly easy to do. Not only are there places in the forest and tunnels one could probably die and never be located, the entire island is surrounded by the ocean and with a little preparation it should be possible to drown oneself (or perhaps another...) and never be found. Sort of a reverse-Erika.
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Old 2011-06-30, 15:35   Link #22996
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Too smart too be true.
>_>

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My god - WHY HAVE I NOT CONSIDERED THIS BEFORE ?!
Because I rule.
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Old 2011-06-30, 15:46   Link #22997
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As you said Kealym, anyone can survive since the red is worthless; that's kind of the problem. There's no particular reason why more survivors are impossible, as there exist several avenues for a person to survive without being observed:
  • They were at Kuwadorian, but trying not to be found. This assumes there are perhaps some hard-to-search or easily-overlooked places there, but it's not implausible. Eva was supposedly found there, but as far as we know she wanted to be located.
  • They were somewhere else on the island and hid from police searches. A densely-forested, largely-inaccessible, rather remote island with one of its two docks destroyed is a pretty easy place to hide in. The police would be so overcome by the devastation near the mansion they probably wouldn't think it likely anyone was hiding in the forest. Whether or how this person would have left the island is another matter entirely.
  • They escaped through some heretofore-unnoticed or unmentioned escape mechanism. Battler did this, apparently. While it's somewhat unlikely there are more escape methods than the one Battler found, it's possible, and even if there aren't, nothing specifically precludes Battler leaving with somebody else. After all, he wouldn't remember it.
  • They died, but died after the incident and were never located and thus presumed lost in the blast. This is incredibly easy to do. Not only are there places in the forest and tunnels one could probably die and never be located, the entire island is surrounded by the ocean and with a little preparation it should be possible to drown oneself (or perhaps another...) and never be found. Sort of a reverse-Erika.
3 is irrelevant.

There's one big problem with 2: supplies

Kinzo stopped having Kuwadorian stocked decades ago. Any supplies that was at Kuwadorian was probably moved to the mansion shortly after Beatrice 2's death; even if it hadn't, supplies probably wouldn't last long. Any supplies at the mansion would have been destroyed in the blast. There's no evidence of a lake on Rokkenjima, so fresh water, let alone food, would have run out quickly.
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Old 2011-06-30, 15:54   Link #22998
Renall
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We don't have to account for their continued survival so long as it's plausible they were alive for some length of time. Of course it's entirely possible someone would've survived and starved to death, but highly unlikely.

However, the "survivor writes messages, commits suicide" thing is entirely possible. You wouldn't need terribly much in the way of supplies if you intended to die anyway.
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Old 2011-07-01, 03:38   Link #22999
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I don't mean to disrupt this discussion but I have a question. In Ep 5 how was the knock possible? And as for the man from 19 years ago, his role seems to stop after telling Natshui to go hide in the closet. Any ideas who he is?
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Old 2011-07-01, 03:58   Link #23000
Jan-Poo
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In a recent TIP translated by LyricalAura it seems to be implied that there has never been a knock in the first place.

As for the man from 19 years before we all know well who s/he is! And if you don't know yet you probably haven't read EP7. I could tell you, but do you really want to be spoiled? If yes

Spoiler for EP7:


If not, consider that the story that Natsuhi told about that event in 1967 is true (except the "baby died" part of course). Reason about what else happened in 1967 and reason about who could plausibly have 19 years among the cast.
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