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Old 2011-07-02, 16:54   Link #23021
cronnoponno
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So, I take it my argument about the knock is legitimate? Feels really disturbing to have not been corrected on any wrong facts yet.
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Old 2011-07-02, 17:34   Link #23022
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by cronnoponno View Post
So, I take it my argument about the knock is legitimate? Feels really disturbing to have not been corrected on any wrong facts yet.
Well, there's this from Lambda.

Krauss, Natsuhi, and Genji did not knock. That's not in the limited sense of knocking just on the door, okay? I mean that regardless of whether it was a pillar that transmits sound, or pushing the “Play” button on a cassette tape with a knock recorded on it, they did absolutely nothing to bring forth that sound! And of course, that means directly, indirectly, intentionally, accidentally, and unconsciously!
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Old 2011-07-02, 18:15   Link #23023
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Anoher question but besides Yasu/Shannon, the killer is always different in each Episode?
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Old 2011-07-02, 18:21   Link #23024
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It seems that in the first four games, the killer is consistently Shannon/Kanon (not counting things like Eva thinking Battler is the culprit and shooting him in EP3, etc). EP5 is kind of a mess, EP6 Erika was the culprit because she's an asshole like that, and you know how EP7 goes.
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Old 2011-07-02, 18:24   Link #23025
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oblivion0101 View Post
Anoher question but besides Yasu/Shannon, the killer is always different in each Episode?
I'd say it depends on how you want to solve the Episodes.
In EP1 and 2 it's pretty impossible to construct a good culprit theory without Yasu, because of the narrative as well, of course.
In EP3 it's possible to go with a Yasu route, but you could solve it with other culprits as well. I've got 3 theories on my hand how events could have gone, though I favour one over the other two and they are not that much different after all.
EP4 basically leaves you all the freedom you want, which is what it's about in the end. You just have to find a reasonable solution to construct around the events you can trust...which is basically just some calls and Battler's search for the corpses in the very end.
EP5 and 6 are basically excersizes meant to test how far you've come with your reasoning. It's not really about who is the culprit, but there are several approaches as well.

Going by what Ryűkishi said there is one truth and among that one truth is that he incorporated what he liked about Higurashi again and that is "there is a different acomplice every time".
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Old 2011-07-02, 18:24   Link #23026
cronnoponno
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Well, there's this from Lambda.

Krauss, Natsuhi, and Genji did not knock. That's not in the limited sense of knocking just on the door, okay? I mean that regardless of whether it was a pillar that transmits sound, or pushing the “Play” button on a cassette tape with a knock recorded on it, they did absolutely nothing to bring forth that sound! And of course, that means directly, indirectly, intentionally, accidentally, and unconsciously!

''That Sound'', she never said Krauss, Natsuhi, and Genji were not responsible for the sequence of knocks that happened just before the 24:00 bell.

So, we can interpret her red like this:
Krauss, Natsuhi, and Genji did not knock on the door when Kanon and Shannon came in to serve tea, after all, one of those two knocked.As such, Krauss, Natsuhi, and Genji did not create the sound.

Like I said, it was a stupid workaround, but as far as I can see, it can be worked around. It's strange, because she seems to only imply that there was ''one knock'', when the knock in question, that was responsible for warning them about the letter was a sequence of two knocks, one that Genji would typically perform(or, to an extent, any servant). ''That sound'' can be referencing the first knock from Yasu. EDIT: to further elaborate, by ''two sequences of knocks'', I mean that there was 2 knocks, 2 times. Resulting in 4 ''banging on the door'' sounds. EDIT: Even if the knock was really faint down in the conference room, it can still be identified as a ''knocking sound'', so they didn't ''misidentify'' it, even if it wasn't their door. It's also perfectly normal that they'd suspect their door was knocked on, even I do this sometimes, and if I ''knock on wood'', my dogs sometimes believe someone knocked on the door and bark wildly(or someone else in the house goes to check, we have pranked eachother this way before)

Last edited by cronnoponno; 2011-07-02 at 18:40.
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Old 2011-07-03, 02:31   Link #23027
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
It seems that in the first four games, the killer is consistently Shannon/Kanon (not counting things like Eva thinking Battler is the culprit and shooting him in EP3, etc). EP5 is kind of a mess, EP6 Erika was the culprit because she's an asshole like that, and you know how EP7 goes.
Isn't it kind of important that something is decidedly wrong with ep5 and we never found out what exactly it was? I mean we're told murders really happened, clearly shown fake murders, and Natsuhi (a more-or-less reliable perspective character) witnesses an apparent murder without seeing the culprit (or witnesses a staged fake-murder, either way she outright sees it being done). It's basically impossible to properly narrow it down (so it's easily possible to just be LOL YASU AGAIN), but the whole thing doesn't exactly add up well.

"Okay you guys need to go upstairs and fake being dead and Battler will pretend you're dead and then you all sneak off but Battler doesn't and then I'll kill you for real instead of just killing you the regular way and making the fake ritual murder a real ritual murder."

I can't help but think there's meant to be more of a hint to that. In Yasu's stories, the fake murder into real murder bears some measure of plausibility because (1) moving people to unusual locations first is easier with a pretense and (2) the fake murders are never actually seen in faked, but are real murders, making the "let's play pretend" more sensible as an MO to permit real murder.

But then suddenly the murders are fake and meant to be perceived as fake, even though there doesn't appear to be any reasonable way that earlier episodes could be viewed as being operated in such a manner. There's a problem with that thematically and constructively and the fact that it comes later in the story arc has to mean something if the whole meta-world is viewed as a cognitive space with a continuous revelatory narrative. In retrospect it seems unlikely that Tohya suddenly believes the First Twilights in the fictions are fake. So either he's come to some realization about R-Prime independent of the fiction - which would suggest something is actually wrongly portrayed in the fiction - or he's making some other point entirely.
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Old 2011-07-03, 04:06   Link #23028
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In EP3 the adults bring up the theory that the servants might have faked it all. They say that they actually thought it was the most likely explanation at first.

The problem is that this theory was soon denied and promptly dismissed. In narrative and mystery narrative in particular this is always a message from the author: "I know you might think the solution is x so let me clarify this for you". This come from the, usually good, assumption that the "watson" isn't going to serve you the solution on a silver platter.

Of course it might as well be possible that the Genji Gohda and Kumasawa were actually dead, but there are still two fake corpses, and there are at least two fake deaths in EP1.

The main problem I see in EP5 is that in order for Yasu to perform the delayed murder she needed to somehow elude Erika's surveillance. But what we see is Erika in the same place with both Kanon and Shannon which is impossible. So we can't even be sure if Yasu is there at all. In fact without a reliable perspective we can't be sure of anything at all.
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Old 2011-07-03, 11:36   Link #23029
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The issue isn't faking deaths; we didn't need ep5 to suspect that. The issue is the false construction of a First Twilight with apparently willing participants on a large scale who are not actually dead. This pattern recurs in ep6 and is shoved right in our faces. But as a possible solution to the prior episodes, it... doesn't work.

Oh sure, Shannon faking is there for two of the episodes, but the problem is there's two more episodes, one we can't really get a read on and one where, so far as we can tell, six people were really killed before anybody could possibly have had an opportunity to see them faking and which, were Beatrice responsible, Rosa probably would have been witness to.

This touches on the discussion we're having about why Rosa would cooperate and under what circumstances. I find it very hard to believe she'd be totally okay with helping a person who just killled her siblings and their spouses in front of her. It makes a great deal more sense if Rosa is being deceived and led to believe the scenario is a game. However, if that's true, her behavior would become inexplicable as soon as she realized any given body was real. At such a point, she ought to immediately know who did it. That doesn't seem to make a lot of sense either.

Rosa's behavior and demeanor makes it appear she's a willing accomplice in murder, but her actions don't really mesh for me if that's true. If anything, her actions don't really help the killer much at all. They'd help a fake killer, but at that point you have to assume Rosa can't tell any of the bodies are real.
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Old 2011-07-03, 12:06   Link #23030
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Rosa's behavior and demeanor makes it appear she's a willing accomplice in murder, but her actions don't really mesh for me if that's true. If anything, her actions don't really help the killer much at all. They'd help a fake killer, but at that point you have to assume Rosa can't tell any of the bodies are real.
That's something we've been discussing the previous page actually. My position is that I can only really explain Rosa's behaviour if Beatrice told her about the bomb (and the switch) and promised her that she'd turn the switch off if she did as she said with the promise of letting her and Maria survive.

That still hardly explains the passion she put in and the perfect execution of her role, but I guess that's ryuukishi for you.

Haguruma thinks that it could also have been for money and greed. But I can't really buy this explanation. Rosa'd need to be pretty blind and stupid to accept such a dangerous deal with a psycho.
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Old 2011-07-03, 12:55   Link #23031
LyricalAura
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This touches on the discussion we're having about why Rosa would cooperate and under what circumstances. I find it very hard to believe she'd be totally okay with helping a person who just killled her siblings and their spouses in front of her. It makes a great deal more sense if Rosa is being deceived and led to believe the scenario is a game. However, if that's true, her behavior would become inexplicable as soon as she realized any given body was real. At such a point, she ought to immediately know who did it. That doesn't seem to make a lot of sense either.
At which point did she actually have a reason to doubt anything? Up until Kumisawa and Nanjo were found lying in the rain, all of the deaths could plausibly have been faked if you didn't closely inspect the bodies. By that time, she had to have realized she was the most suspicious person there, and Battler definitely wouldn't have believed her after Shannon turned up dead.

On a related note, did anybody come up with a plausible reason why Shannon's group went to Natsuhi's room and how George ended up with the key? I thought that Shannon might have pickpocketed the key from Natsuhi's corpse earlier and suggested that they could hide from Rosa there, since Rosa wouldn't know they could get in without the master keys.
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Old 2011-07-03, 13:01   Link #23032
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The problem is that this theory was soon denied and promptly dismissed. In narrative and mystery narrative in particular this is always a message from the author: "I know you might think the solution is x so let me clarify this for you". This come from the, usually good, assumption that the "watson" isn't going to serve you the solution on a silver platter.
To be fair, they did the same thing with Shannon dressing up as Beatrice in EP1.
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Old 2011-07-03, 13:06   Link #23033
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To be fair, they did the same thing with Shannon dressing up as Beatrice in EP1.
"Ignore <correct solution> because of <bad assumption> and <red herring>" is a time-honored strategy in detective novels.
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Old 2011-07-03, 13:14   Link #23034
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I can believe that Maria could be part of a fake murder plot without realizing things are real in any episode; she's portrayed as being that gullible.

I can believe that Gohda & Kumasawa in Episode 4 (lying about what they saw, faking their own deaths at first) could be part of a fake murder plot without realizing that things were real; they were never in a position to see a real corpse.

Anybody else, I can't see them remaining naive after the first twilight.
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Old 2011-07-03, 13:24   Link #23035
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I can believe that Maria could be part of a fake murder plot without realizing things are real in any episode; she's portrayed as being that gullible.

I can believe that Gohda & Kumasawa in Episode 4 (lying about what they saw, faking their own deaths at first) could be part of a fake murder plot without realizing that things were real; they were never in a position to see a real corpse.

Anybody else, I can't see them remaining naive after the first twilight.
The thing about the first twilight in EP2 is that it's theatrical. It's actually plausible that you could fake that scene with good planning and makeup, and the apparent gore would keep most people from looking too closely at it. Shannon had ample opportunity overnight to demonstrate this to Rosa, so Rosa might easily have been primed not to suspect anything.
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Old 2011-07-03, 13:24   Link #23036
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"Ignore <correct solution> because of <bad assumption> and <red herring>" is a time-honored strategy in detective novels.
Really? I think it's plain bad. Carr said that the culprit must never turn out to be someone that has been suspected earlier. I totally agree with that, and for the same reason I don't think that the solution of any mystery should be theorized by the characters.

That's the readers job. If you use a trick such as this I guess you effectively catch the readers off guard, and that part is good, but what about the anticlimatic result?

I think there are better methods to fool the readers.

Quote:
At which point did she actually have a reason to doubt anything? Up until Kumisawa and Nanjo were found lying in the rain, all of the deaths could plausibly have been faked if you didn't closely inspect the bodies. By that time, she had to have realized she was the most suspicious person there, and Battler definitely wouldn't have believed her after Shannon turned up dead.
To be honest, if she thought the first twilight was fake, she might have as well believed in everything else. The real issue is the very first twilight, and unless she was told expensive make and special effects were used a normal person in her place would have at least doubted that those 6 were killed.
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Old 2011-07-03, 13:37   Link #23037
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Well they can be the culprit, but you'll have to flip the why and how around in a way that isn't obvious. But I do agree with it being anti climatic and RK mentioned the same thing regarding Eva in EP3, he felt having her be the culprit there a little shallow.

But then the same thing could apply to ep2 with Rosa being correct about the events in Jessica's room. Also with Nanjo and Kumasawa. And with Battler telling her that she placed the letter, that she's been acting strange trough out the day and that she was an accomplice/culprit. Maybe he changed his mind by episode 3 and decided to retcon it by telling us they where written by someone else. Or maybe he planned it from the beginning who knows!
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Old 2011-07-03, 13:38   Link #23038
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The thing about the first twilight in EP2 is that it's theatrical. It's actually plausible that you could fake that scene with good planning and makeup, and the apparent gore would keep most people from looking too closely at it. Shannon had ample opportunity overnight to demonstrate this to Rosa, so Rosa might easily have been primed not to suspect anything.
Her reaction to the First Twilight was sure some good acting if so.

Plus there's the major problem of even if everyone involved somehow knows it's fake, why are they okay with letting people like Battler and Jessica think it isn't? Kind of a gigantic dick move to let people think their moms and dads are brutally murdered, even if there are circumstances keeping you from telling them openly. Not even a twinge of regret?
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Old 2011-07-03, 14:10   Link #23039
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I have serious problems that anybody could believe that anybody on the island could believe that E2T1 was fake.

To carry out a convincing fake:

1) Nobody outside the plot can be allowed to get inspect a "victim" closely. George is mentioned as having removed the envelope from the table. If he'd touched one of them, the plot would have been blown immediately.

2) It's hard for an untrained person to hold still for extended periods of time. A person who was faking would be unlikely to get into position until just before the cousins arrived; at the very least, not before Kanon was sent to "fetch Nanjo", and probably not until Kanon & Nanjo were in earshot.

3) Related, it's important to get anybody not involved away from the "victims" as soon as possible. George & Battler were permitted to stay in the chapel for some time.

Without these steps, I can't believe this is credible as a phony murder.
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Old 2011-07-03, 15:03   Link #23040
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1) Nobody outside the plot can be allowed to get inspect a "victim" closely. George is mentioned as having removed the envelope from the table. If he'd touched one of them, the plot would have been blown immediately.
George is in on it.

Quote:
2) It's hard for an untrained person to hold still for extended periods of time. A person who was faking would be unlikely to get into position until just before the cousins arrived; at the very least, not before Kanon was sent to "fetch Nanjo", and probably not until Kanon & Nanjo were in earshot.
Assuming that they only had to hold still while Battler (the only character guaranteed NOT to be in on it), they had to hold still for like...what, eight minutes? Besides, Ryukishi is willing to use devices like "There's no wet footprints because it's not important" or "bullets don't miss because of Rule of Drama."

Quote:
3) Related, it's important to get anybody not involved away from the "victims" as soon as possible. George & Battler were permitted to stay in the chapel for some time.
George is in on it. Battler is incompetent.
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