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Old 2011-07-08, 08:21   Link #23121
Kealym
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cronnoponno View Post
Therefore, the motive changed from ''The evil snickering witch alchemist that challenges the Ushiromiya family'', to ''Natsuhi is the fucking bitch that threw me off a cliff due to her own inability to conceive, I'll show that bitch, bitch''.

Therefore, the motive changed to Anti-Natsuhi.

Do you think this sounds plausible maybe?
Seriously having vivid thought of new game, wherein absolutely everyone is in on trolling the LIVING FUCK out of Godha, because "lol why not", and it's amazing.

Also, yes, Yasu doesn't seem to hate Natsuhi. In fact, alot of things hint that she's actually very sympathetic to all of the Ushiromiya's little ... emotional problems and quirks. However, taking Shkanon as the default solution to the first four games, Yasu isn't always known for doing things that make ... ... sense. <_<
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Old 2011-07-08, 08:35   Link #23122
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Having many personalities (or acting to be multiple people) buts a considerable strain on one's mind.
Not surprising there's some uhh "oddities".
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Old 2011-07-08, 08:36   Link #23123
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That's pretty much the problem. Whoever killed Krauss was basically intentionally tormenting Natsuhi. Killing Krauss for other ends would be one thing; it'd hurt Natsuhi, but you could have some other objective in mind for which her upset is an unfortunate side effect.

But having him call his wife, only to kill him shortly thereafter? I can only see it playing out in a couple ways:
  • Someone (such as "Beatrice") was having Krauss call as part of the fake storyline. Krauss was never intended to die. However, someone unrelated to the call murdered him.
  • Krauss was supposed to disappear as part of the plot, but no call was intended. Someone else forced Krauss to make the call, then killed him.
  • Incredibly elaborate drama queen suicide plot on Krauss's part.
The other thing is that the phone calls are not the MO of Beatrice even in the fantasy world. While Beatrice does call Battler in ep4, she doesn't have any hostages. The people supposedly taken hostage claim that Kinzo is holding them. Beatrice has never kidnapped a living person (though she has "borrowed" corpses), at least not to the point of making their loved ones aware they're being held.

It's a needless form of cruelty that doesn't match up with what Beatrice is actually trying to do, even in scenarios where she is the culprit. Add to that, in ep5 Beatrice's motive is apparently extracted anyway. I really can't conclude anything else but that there's somebody else at work, but that person's style is distinctly different from the styles of the proposed culprits we've seen (Yasu and Kyrie). Yasu is stealthy, tricky, and clean. Kyrie goes in shooting. Who is this kidnapper who allows for phone calls?
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Old 2011-07-08, 09:39   Link #23124
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Going by the end of the Episode, I think the kidnapper's goal is to get Natsuhi to admit that Kinzo has been dead all this time, and that she was in on the hoax. But the murder doesn't seem to fit in with that.
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Old 2011-07-08, 13:52   Link #23125
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I'd say it depends on whether the kidnapper is the murderer.

If the kidnapper isn't, then making it part of a ploy to pressure Natsuhi might make sense. Problem is... Krauss knows too, right? You have him presumably as your prisoner. Why can't you put pressure on him?

If the kidnapper is the murderer, they gain little from killing Krauss and less from letting Natsuhi believe he's alive. You don't make demands and then kill the hostage before they've been met. Natsuhi hasn't cracked on Kinzo yet, so even if you planned to kill off Krauss in the end, you'd want to wait until he's no longer necessary.
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Old 2011-07-08, 15:20   Link #23126
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What if Krauss was kidnapped, but he was too difficult to retain, so he had to be killed for necessity or self-preservation and the kidnapper/murderer had to roll with the lie that he was alive?

BTW further proof that Beatrice isn't involved here: The stakes comment that the magic circles and stuff are all wrong and way too crude.
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Old 2011-07-08, 15:36   Link #23127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cronnoponno View Post
Although, if Yasu is Shkannon, then she would have obviously recognized his/her voice, so you may be right about someone else finding out about the situation. I highly doubt Yasu was such a superb voice actor that she would be able to trick the woman living with him/her for pretty much ALL of his/her life.
Is it? By definition, Shkannon is capable of at least two distinct voices all the time; adding a third on a few rare occasions is child's play.

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Old 2011-07-08, 17:14   Link #23128
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There is no difference between Yasu and Beatrice, they're different names for the same person. They're not seperate entities like Shannon & Kanon(though I still refuse to accept Shkannontrice for a number of reasons), they never appear together separately, unless you count Lion & Beatrice meeting(Lion being yet another name for Yasu/Beatrice).

There is no "delusional witch part", that's just Yasu being a delusional witch. There isn't a seperate character in Miyamae Kanako's head when she has her Sapphic fantasies.

It's just one of those things that bothers me. I especially hate that "Yasu" has supplanted Beatrice when it was never even her real name anyway. Episode 8 seemed to drive home the fact there was a "real" Beatrice after all; not just a figment of someone's imagination or people acting out her role, there really was someone who went around claiming to be a witch seriously dressed like that. I hate to sound like R07 but people are really starting to remind me of the "Without love" types. Reading Episode 7 and actually paying attention also makes it clear Yasu "Becomes" Beatrice, not "Invents" her like with Gaap.
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Old 2011-07-08, 17:23   Link #23129
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Food for thought, it might inspire a few...

Coins must have two sides. Isn't it foolish to insist one of the side is the "true side" and the other is a "false side"? The truth of a coin is neither of it's sides, it is the coin itself. The sides exists only for the sake of the coin. Your only real choice is which side you decide to look at, which to put in the back.
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Old 2011-07-08, 18:55   Link #23130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
Food for thought, it might inspire a few...

Coins must have two sides. Isn't it foolish to insist one of the side is the "true side" and the other is a "false side"? The truth of a coin is neither of it's sides, it is the coin itself. The sides exists only for the sake of the coin. Your only real choice is which side you decide to look at, which to put in the back.
Lol, what I got from this was ''Yasu and Lion are fake, pick your side and pick your backside'', but yeah good point here.

RoseWeave, wasn't most of that stuff already all obvious? Plus, wasn't the ''love'' part based on interpretation?(within a few boundaries), You weren't too clear I don't get what you're trying to say.
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Old 2011-07-08, 20:31   Link #23131
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I was commenting on comments like this -

"By ''Beatrice'', I meant the delusional, witch part of course. "
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Old 2011-07-08, 21:13   Link #23132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roseweave View Post
There is no difference between Yasu and Beatrice, they're different names for the same person. They're not seperate entities like Shannon & Kanon(though I still refuse to accept Shkannontrice for a number of reasons), they never appear together separately, unless you count Lion & Beatrice meeting(Lion being yet another name for Yasu/Beatrice).

There is no "delusional witch part", that's just Yasu being a delusional witch. There isn't a seperate character in Miyamae Kanako's head when she has her Sapphic fantasies.

It's just one of those things that bothers me. I especially hate that "Yasu" has supplanted Beatrice when it was never even her real name anyway. Episode 8 seemed to drive home the fact there was a "real" Beatrice after all; not just a figment of someone's imagination or people acting out her role, there really was someone who went around claiming to be a witch seriously dressed like that. I hate to sound like R07 but people are really starting to remind me of the "Without love" types. Reading Episode 7 and actually paying attention also makes it clear Yasu "Becomes" Beatrice, not "Invents" her like with Gaap.
People generally use "Yasu" to refer to the actual person stripped of all facades and deceptions; the person she truly is ("Yasu wants Battler to remember her and find out the truth") and contrast to "Beatrice", the persona she puts on and wants people to buy into ("Beatrice wants Battler to submit and accept the existence of her magic").
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Old 2011-07-08, 22:57   Link #23133
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What if Krauss was kidnapped, but he was too difficult to retain, so he had to be killed for necessity or self-preservation and the kidnapper/murderer had to roll with the lie that he was alive?

BTW further proof that Beatrice isn't involved here: The stakes comment that the magic circles and stuff are all wrong and way too crude.
That's a rather nice theory for Krauss's murder, I think, though there is still the matter of why bother kidnapping him. I think the crappy hebrew can be chalked up to the fact that usually, I think it's the concensus that Genji or Yasu drawn them, but only the 5 in the cousins room could've drawn the one there, right? The only one who might've done it competently was Maria, and maybe she would've had difficulty just in being small?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roseweave View Post
There is no difference between Yasu and Beatrice, they're different names for the same person. They're not seperate entities like Shannon & Kanon(though I still refuse to accept Shkannontrice for a number of reasons), they never appear together separately, unless you count Lion & Beatrice meeting(Lion being yet another name for Yasu/Beatrice).

There is no "delusional witch part", that's just Yasu being a delusional witch. There isn't a seperate character in Miyamae Kanako's head when she has her Sapphic fantasies.

It's just one of those things that bothers me. I especially hate that "Yasu" has supplanted Beatrice when it was never even her real name anyway. Episode 8 seemed to drive home the fact there was a "real" Beatrice after all; not just a figment of someone's imagination or people acting out her role, there really was someone who went around claiming to be a witch seriously dressed like that. I hate to sound like R07 but people are really starting to remind me of the "Without love" types. Reading Episode 7 and actually paying attention also makes it clear Yasu "Becomes" Beatrice, not "Invents" her like with Gaap.
I disagree - Yasu's lineage, finding the gold, and adoption of the persona are certainly part of Beatrice, but Beatrice is an abstract sort of character, and consists of the old ghost stories, prior two Beatrice's, and any given humans inability or unwillingness to explain the truth of an inexplicable event. If one is willing to count Shannon and Kanon as separate characters, I think one is obliged to accept Yasu and Beatrice as separate, too.

Of course, as has been debated before, I doubt Yasu has any "true, medical DID" - she's a singular person who can make her own damn choices, and the loveless interpretation is that she just indulges in emotional flights of fancy via fake friends to cope and justify herself.
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Old 2011-07-08, 23:50   Link #23134
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I also don't agree on Yasu and Beatrice being exactly the same. Whilst Beatrice was indeed born from some aspects of Yasu's - basically, pranks and "magic" - I think Beatrice, just like the first Shannon is mainly an ideal Yasu aspired to become. At first, Beatrice was an imaginary friend Yasu used to excuse herself for her clumsiness and being forgetful, but eventually she turned that illusion into a projection of herself as a witch who ruled over Rokkenjima, was free from any binding, could do magic, was beautiful, elegant and had a strong personality. After her meeting with Battler, she changed some things, like the physical form (fit to be Battler's ideal woman) and also added to Beatrice the feelings she had for Battler.

So, it is really hard to say Yasu and Beatrice are the exact same person. Beatrice is what Yasu would like to be. This is why Beatrice is weak against mirrors, because it reminds Yasu who she really is.
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Old 2011-07-09, 00:11   Link #23135
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Originally Posted by Roseweave View Post
I was commenting on comments like this -

"By ''Beatrice'', I meant the delusional, witch part of course. "
I refuse to to use a euphemism and give direct words to point out what I mean to the fullest detail in order for someone to realize I am not calling Yasu a ''lolpshycobitch that iz crazy and needs 2 b put 2 prison'' if that's what you're implying. It should be obvious what I ''mean'', because even that phrase was just another phrase to explain that I was talking about the persona, illusion, whatever, of Beatrice and not Yasu.

Doesn't Beatrice(fantasy) lose her ''golden'' title when someone solves the epitaph? If a pro-magic person solves it(kid-Eva in EP 3), they succeed her and then become Beatrice themselves, if a non-believer solves it(Ep 7 gang), then either she reverts back into Yasu supposedly, or(because Ep 7's tea party might not be true), does something that we don't know yet. Furthermore, she gambled more than just her golden title, by offering herself to fate, she put her very existence as a witch on the line for this epitaph, otherwise her tragic determination would seem pointless, what I was saying was, when Battler solved the epitaph, the ''anti-magic'' scenario, or something of the sort happened, therefore Yasu was no longer ''Beatrice'', but back to Yasu's personality according to the rules she set for herself, and then her motive changed into ''Anti-Natsuhi''. But, as apparent, strong evidence is made clear that Yasu does not hold such grudges, I never would have learned this if I didn't say this.

However, I refuse to accept the ''Hebrew circles suck'' argument, because if my scenario was correct, and Beatrice did revert back to Yasu, Yasu should only halfway know about the circles compared to Beatrice, ''Maria taught Beatrice'' how to draw them, ''Maria did not teach Yasu'', therefore it would be a contradiction if Yasu broke the rules and still made them expertly, because that admits that ''they are the same''. Yasu is professional and cannot break these rules, anyone who would abide by the rules of the scorpion charm on Natsuhi's door in EP 1 is clearly devoted to being professional.

I refuse to be lectured on a view of love if you're just lashing out at my comment on ''delusional''. Ryu did not make this phrase for everyone who disagrees with any negative sounding theory to slash away at any thought, ideal, metaphor, or conception that there might be something wrong with the characters in this tale as if it was some sort of weapon. At least I hope not...

I believe that the whole ''love'' approach meant more than just one thing, and that it needs to be interpreted differently for each person(of course, within reasonable boundaries, like, I can't say ''I love to see people die, therefore I see the loveless conclusion with love therefore it contradicts the idea'', so it's only natural that I would approach this in more ways than one. If you have read my thoughts and speculations these past few pages, you should realize that I am giving them with the purpose of having them proved wrong, so I can learn on the corrections and in the long run learn more than simply observing everything myself. What I personally got myself from the ''love'' approach, is that, while the answer my be completely humiliating or cruel, understanding it and not just saying ''Wow this girl is fucked up in the head''(or whatever the truth is'', is something that's extremely important, however that doesn't mean I can dismiss the opinions of characters like Erika and Bernkastel.


It's like people who use Erika's cheese argument as a form of refuge to deny any ''bullcrap theory that twists logic'', ignoring the fact that ''Battler came to that conclusion as well'', only difference being that he didn't spend 30 minutes bragging about his superior intelligence to a piece of paper.

Last edited by cronnoponno; 2011-07-09 at 00:43.
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Old 2011-07-09, 04:35   Link #23136
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Quote:
However, I refuse to accept the ''Hebrew circles suck'' argument, because if my scenario was correct, and Beatrice did revert back to Yasu, Yasu should only halfway know about the circles compared to Beatrice, ''Maria taught Beatrice'' how to draw them, ''Maria did not teach Yasu'', therefore it would be a contradiction if Yasu broke the rules and still made them expertly, because that admits that ''they are the same''. Yasu is professional and cannot break these rules, anyone who would abide by the rules of the scorpion charm on Natsuhi's door in EP 1 is clearly devoted to being professional.
That's nonsense. If Yasu's not going to commit to the idea of "A witch is doing this" and is trying to be professional, why bother with the circles AT ALL? It'd be more professional not to even bother, since the crudeness of the circles demonstrates human error and imperfection.

No, someone is impersonating her.
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Old 2011-07-09, 11:51   Link #23137
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On the subject of who killed Krauss, I noticed something interesting. Right before Krauss is killed, during the last phone call from the Man from 19 Years Ago, nearly everyone on the island has an alibi:
  • Battler, Rudolf, Kyrie, Eva, Hideyoshi, and Nanjo are with Erika. The exact timing of the phone call isn't clear, but they're probably still in the guesthouse.
  • George, Jessica, Maria, and Rosa are trapped in the cousins' room until Erika leaves. Since they'll be caught if they wander around randomly, they have to wait till they're absolutely sure that Erika has left the building before doing anything.
  • Gohda and Kanon are outside Natsuhi's door. If we trust Natsuhi's perspective regarding other people's movements (and I think we should), this makes it impossible for Kanon to be the Man from 19 Years Ago.

So we're left with Genji, Kumasawa, and Shannon unaccounted for at that moment. That probably makes Shannon!Yasu the one on the phone, but if we eliminate her as the murderer... The last place Kumasawa appeared was with Shannon, which puts her in murder range of Krauss.

I seem to remember that there was a timeline problem with Kumasawa's movements. Didn't she end up making breakfast in the mansion without breaking the seal Erika put on her door overnight, so that she must have climbed out the window?
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Old 2011-07-09, 12:33   Link #23138
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So we're left with Genji, Kumasawa, and Shannon unaccounted for at that moment. That probably makes Shannon!Yasu the one on the phone, but if we eliminate her as the murderer... The last place Kumasawa appeared was with Shannon, which puts her in murder range of Krauss.

I seem to remember that there was a timeline problem with Kumasawa's movements. Didn't she end up making breakfast in the mansion without breaking the seal Erika put on her door overnight, so that she must have climbed out the window?
I have speculated about that before when I thought about where Krauss was held/where the phone calls come from. Kumasawa is what I landed on as well, because if I recall correctly, Kumasawa was in the servants room in the guest house which was one place sealed by Erika's surveillance. But she cannot say what Kumasawa was doing there. Maybe some phone calls? I think Kumasawa could be capable of faking voices, as she did convince the siblings that Kinzo was walking around during the 1985 conference. This "Kumasawa is a good actor" thing is mentioned in EP5 itself, so it could be even more relevant to this game board.
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Old 2011-07-09, 14:03   Link #23139
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My proposed reconstruction of Episode 5:

After Krauss & Natsuhi are called away, the other parents decided to fill him in on their suspicions about Kinzo. Shkanon also filled him in on what she had been planning. Somebody came up faking Shkannon's plan. When Rosa left at 1 AM, she told Jessica, George, and Maria about it in terms of "playing a prank on Erika". From 1 to a little before 3, the four of them were setting up the cousins' room. Erika was in on it, knowing that she was supposed to fake those deductions at the end ("At midnight, the living Kinzo did not exist anywhere outside Natsuhi's bed."). Genji and Shkannon would accept the authority of Battler after he solved the epitaph. Gohda, Natsuhi, and possibly Kumasawa weren't involved. Krauss couldn't be convinced to join in a fake wilingly, so they had to kidnap him.
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Old 2011-07-09, 16:11   Link #23140
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And the murders? And how do you propose Erika was in on it? Her meta-self didn't seem to have any awareness of it, which would violate Knox.
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