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Old 2011-07-26, 16:26   Link #23401
AuraTwilight
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Try reading EP7 and you'll see why the idea doesn't actually work.
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Old 2011-07-26, 18:48   Link #23402
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
That problem doesn't really change without him. It takes some minor tinkering, but it winds up working out about the same.
Removing Kanon would require to rewrite pretty much half of the series.

His interactions with Shannon provided us examples of how Yasu feels about her body and her fate. Without Kanon, you'd have Shannon running around, screaming she's furniture... really not the same thing, it would have made the Shannon=Beatrice thing even more obvious.

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What exactly stops Beatrice/Yasu from having the same complex without introducing unnecessary and pointless characters?
Because Kanon ads a level of complexity that Shannontrice simply doesn't have. Will said it "I saw how fate twisted your life, and holy shit"

She tried to become a witch to escape her servant-life, and but it was revealed that she was destined to become a witch all along and her witch persona is simply another dead end.

Her female servant persona tried to break from her fate, but it was decided that Battler had to come back the same year George decided to propose.

And for the last, her male persona had it even worse since he's the more "crippled" between them. She can't be female, but she can't also be male! (and if Yasu was originally a boy, you can see how Kanon existence becomes even more important)

Without Kanon, Beatrice would be just the secret identity of Shannon, with Kanon they become three different people, each other with their desires. With this, "the roulette of fate" definitely makes more sense.

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Except it's not required to solve Umineko and doesn't solve it, in the sense that it actually answers anything. It's not even a particularly good distraction since one way or the other you assume there's an unseen person "behind" the appearances of the characters. At best, Kanon is a minor fleshing-out of this concept (compared to Beatrice and Shannon, which are reasonably major ones); at worst, he gives us nothing we didn't already get from other characters. Pretty much his sole purpose was to be Shannon's foil, then he wasn't, then he was all trying to be himself, then whoops it turns out nothing about him matters in any important sense, let's talk more about Clair/Shannon/Yasu and literally mention Kanon in passing.
It's the only solution for ep 1-2. Beatrice wanted Battler to find her heart, the why. In this case, the why is slightly related to the how, because Shkanon IS Yasu's heart.
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Old 2011-07-26, 20:31   Link #23403
Renall
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Originally Posted by FirstTwilight View Post
Removing Kanon would require to rewrite pretty much half of the series.
Not really, unless you're saying half of the series is about Kanon or specifically references Kanon or that the things Kanon does can't be replaced by somebody else. Couple instances aside (which would need to be entirely rewritten, it's true), that ain't hard.
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His interactions with Shannon provided us examples of how Yasu feels about her body and her fate. Without Kanon, you'd have Shannon running around, screaming she's furniture... really not the same thing, it would have made the Shannon=Beatrice thing even more obvious.
All Kanon ever says is he's furniture. Wow, so does Shannon for a while. Shannon goes through a transformation. Then Kanon starts to do the same thing except not as well-executed or meaningful and also it doesn't wind up meaning anything. So... it's redundant and less effective.

Also there's another character already who is furniture. How much depth did he get? Oh right... none. What was the origin of his complex? Did it parallel Yasu's somehow and rub off on her? Oh right, that never once was explored. Who was he anyway? How did he meet Kinzo? Welp, guess it isn't important.

Look, Kanon already exists solely in a capacity meant to reflect and relate upon another character in the narrative. That pretty much says it all. A character like that might as well be furniture.
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Because Kanon ads a level of complexity that Shannontrice simply doesn't have. Will said it "I saw how fate twisted your life, and holy shit"
Fate twists Yasu's life regardless of what Shannon or Kanon do.
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It's the only solution for ep 1-2.
No it isn't. It's not even remotely necessary for ep1-2. In fact, it actively hinders the culprit in ep1-2 to have to pretend to be Kanon. So... it makes things less plausible and more difficult for the culprit to pull off. Yep, that's a "good" solution alright.
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Old 2011-07-26, 20:49   Link #23404
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post

Also there's another character already who is furniture. How much depth did he get? Oh right... none. What was the origin of his complex? Did it parallel Yasu's somehow and rub off on her? Oh right, that never once was explored. Who was he anyway? How did he meet Kinzo? Welp, guess it isn't important.

Doesn't EP8 give ... something about how he met Kinzo?
Until disproven, I'm gonna keep thinking Genji's furniture complex is rooted in deep, unfulfillable homolust for Kinzo - it kinds sorta fits Yasu's "unable to love" schtick.
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Old 2011-07-26, 21:07   Link #23405
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Since I don't feel like wading into the debate about Kanon, I'll just drop off something else I spotted in EP3. This conversation takes place right after the 2nd twilight is discovered, and the adults are discussing the possibility that the 1st twilight was faked.

Spoiler for EP3 dialogue:

EDIT: Never mind, this appears to be a translation error. I thought I had the most recent version of the translation, but I guess not?
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Old 2011-07-26, 21:33   Link #23406
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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Doesn't EP8 give ... something about how he met Kinzo?
Until disproven, I'm gonna keep thinking Genji's furniture complex is rooted in deep, unfulfillable homolust for Kinzo - it kinds sorta fits Yasu's "unable to love" schtick.
Indeed it sort of does and I kind of assumed the same thing but honestly there's very little to establish it. We've got, like, one or two details in ep2 and ep4, some coverage in ep7, and some stuff in ep8. Still some pretty big gaps though.
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Old 2011-07-26, 21:36   Link #23407
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I'm not even sure Genji actually has a furniture complex. While I love the homolust theory I honestly think it's more likely that it's just a fantasy detail she put in so all the One Winged Servants match.
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Old 2011-07-26, 22:36   Link #23408
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...Oh dear. I've been really, inexcusably thick.

Yasu is the last illusion concealing the true identity of the author of the message bottles. There is no such person as Yasu in Rokkenjima Prime.
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Old 2011-07-26, 23:00   Link #23409
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...Want to explain? I think I get where you're going with this but I don't want to presume anything.
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Old 2011-07-26, 23:05   Link #23410
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Comedy "the writer really was Maria all along" Option.

Well, I admit, I would've been taken in.

EDIT: Or Battlertrice. Still pulling for that one.
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Old 2011-07-26, 23:43   Link #23411
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It turns out the entire series was written by Lion Ushiromiya, who suffers from Rich Kid Problems, and decided to write a series about how it could be worse to make him appreciate his life more.
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Old 2011-07-27, 00:23   Link #23412
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
...Want to explain? I think I get where you're going with this but I don't want to presume anything.
Well, how about if the real author is Jessica, and in R-Prime she had the personality and feelings for Battler that we normally attribute to Yasu?
  • Jessica grows up lonely and isolated because of her position. Suddenly, Shannon exists to be Jessica's best friend, and later Kanon exists to be her love interest after Battler stops visiting. She mysteriously doesn't notice that they're the same person, and the period of time in Yasu's life where that would have to be explained is conspicuously omitted from the story.
  • She's shown with the blonde hair and big chest that Battler likes, even though nobody takes into account that she's blonde in the narrative. Wish fulfillment?
  • She occasionally makes comments that sound innocent but seem meta in retrospect, like her snarking about Kinzo in EP1 and complaining that Battler is sleeping away his turn on the stage in EP2. She's the first person to provoke Meta-Battler to fight the witch at the end of EP1.
  • Alone among all of the other human characters, she keeps starring in TIPS where she fools around with magic.
  • Meta-Beatrice has a flashback to a childhood incident where she's called "princess" by Virgilia (Kumasawa) and breaks "grandfather's" vase, both of which are totally inconsistent with Yasu's upbringing but perfectly consistent with Jessica's.

You can even think of Yasu and Lion as Jessica's ideas of "what if I were actually a servant" or "what if I had an older sibling who could be the heir instead". Admittedly, figuring out what to do with the story of Natsuhi throwing Yasu off a cliff is a little difficult though.
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Old 2011-07-27, 00:37   Link #23413
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You can even think of Yasu and Lion as Jessica's ideas of "what if I were actually a servant" or "what if I had an older sibling who could be the heir instead". Admittedly, figuring out what to do with the story of Natsuhi throwing Yasu off a cliff is a little difficult though.
Is it? It's basically a variant of the Lion idea. "I don't really have an older sibling like Lion, but what if grandpa had a secret kid and mom had some tragic accident, but the baby survived and came back as a servant after all? What if the servant were really the head of the family and not me?"

I mean, if you're going with that.

Other things you might mention:
  • Jessica's story to Will in ep7 is pretty suspicious and she's rather forthright about it. It's also highly suspicious, isn't it? It thematically maps to the Logic Error in that Jessica should have observed a person in the room with her and didn't, yet such a person had apparently escaped. It's not an exact match, but it's a sound-alike. Nevermind the implausibility of it.
  • Gohda's diary TIP makes it seem like Beatrice is extremely familiar with the island and is always there. That doesn't actually eliminate Jessica. She's always there too.
  • There's a lot that might map between Yasu's secret headship, Lion's assumed generation-skipping headship, and Jessica being second in line. Not really clearly supported though.
Mind you, I think the whole thing has its share of problems too.
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Old 2011-07-27, 00:59   Link #23414
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(Second time posting this video since seeing EP6 spoiler pictures with Jessica's demon eyes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krhdWBrULA4 )

I've always been a big supporter of Jessica as the author/culprit... I feel before Chiru she worked out much more nicely than Yasu. I also remember people being highly suspicious of her with her blond hair and all, but I guess that was a red herring. Or is it?
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Old 2011-07-27, 01:02   Link #23415
AuraTwilight
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Her blonde hair is never commented upon, and it's treated as if it doesn't exist. It's probably anime laws.
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Old 2011-07-27, 01:04   Link #23416
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Is it? It's basically a variant of the Lion idea. "I don't really have an older sibling like Lion, but what if grandpa had a secret kid and mom had some tragic accident, but the baby survived and came back as a servant after all? What if the servant were really the head of the family and not me?"

I mean, if you're going with that.
Assuming that the tragic accident is completely fabricated, yeah. Come to think of it, one of the later Jessica TIPS presents a different explanation for Natsuhi's migraines (albeit a magical one), so that's maybe not completely unreasonable. On the other hand, if it somehow actually happened to Jessica, then it would be easier to see the resulting issues being projected onto other characters in her writing.

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Mind you, I think the whole thing has its share of problems too.
Oh, sure. The love duel, for one thing, and probably the EP7 tea party if Shannon or Kanon showed up in front of Eva. Could be enough there to coerce into into a proper forgery though.
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Old 2011-07-27, 03:32   Link #23417
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
It turns out the entire series was written by Lion Ushiromiya, who suffers from Rich Kid Problems, and decided to write a series about how it could be worse to make him appreciate his life more.
I like this.
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Old 2011-07-27, 09:23   Link #23418
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I would like to know if....does someone know the anwsers for the puzzles in ep8?
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Old 2011-07-27, 14:31   Link #23419
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Those are in the EP8 thread.
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Old 2011-07-28, 20:23   Link #23420
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The entirety of Kanon's part in Claire's story: "Oh yeah well now that 'Beatrice' is the one in love with Battler there will be a new boy servant".

Seriously, Kanon was just passed over completely in EP7; Renall's right; it was basically Ryukishi saying that Kanon is not that important. In terms of the narrative, his primary purpose was simply to be a 3rd personality; in other words, he was only a plot device meant to confuse the reader and allow Beatrice to speak red truth that made no sense.

Kanon and Shannon were both very dull characters from beginning to end. Especially Kanon. Even with the whole psycho-multiple-personality thing aside, Jessica and George have awful taste.
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