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Old 2011-07-28, 20:38   Link #23421
AuraTwilight
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I wouldn't say Shannon was a dull character. She did have depth.

Frankly, what I find funny is that all of this was foreshadowed in EP2's Meta-TIPS. Shannon and Kanon were "created by Kinzo", Shannon has a heart and Kanon only has part of one, etc...
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Old 2011-07-29, 02:41   Link #23422
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Frankly, what I find funny is that all of this was foreshadowed in EP2's Meta-TIPS. Shannon and Kanon were "created by Kinzo", Shannon has a heart and Kanon only has part of one, etc...
And Sakutaro's meta TIP in episode 4. " You could even say he is another Lady MARIA and is an irreplacable existence to her". That ended up being an important hint too.
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Old 2011-07-29, 02:55   Link #23423
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
I wouldn't say Shannon was a dull character. She did have depth.
Mmm... yeah for Shannon "dull character" was a bad choice of words. "Boring personality" would better articulate my disposition towards her. Kanon really was a dull character though.

Random thought- it's interesting that Shannon didn't resist when Battler threatened to touch her boobs in EP1.
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Old 2011-07-29, 04:16   Link #23424
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I honestly found both characters captivating. But they're both shallow.

Which, luckily, is THE POINT, so atleast it's intentional.
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Old 2011-07-29, 04:29   Link #23425
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Random thought- it's interesting that Shannon didn't resist when Battler threatened to touch her boobs in EP1.
I found it even funnier that Ryűkishi admitted that it would have all been over if that had happened.
Yay for fake-boobs!!
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Old 2011-07-29, 04:49   Link #23426
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And thus because of Jessica's intervention, everyone died.

JESSICA IS THE KILLER.
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Old 2011-07-29, 10:11   Link #23427
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They're dreadfully dull characters, but I find Kanon more compelling in terms of personality than the various other folks cooked up by that nutcase (OR WERE THEY?). It's a shame that it turned out absolutely nothing about him mattered in any way and that most of his development turned out to be even less substantial than Shannon's (who, at the very least, has as part of her character background things that may actually have happened to someone).
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Old 2011-07-29, 11:55   Link #23428
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
They're dreadfully dull characters, but I find Kanon more compelling in terms of personality than the various other folks cooked up by that nutcase (OR WERE THEY?). It's a shame that it turned out absolutely nothing about him mattered in any way and that most of his development turned out to be even less substantial than Shannon's (who, at the very least, has as part of her character background things that may actually have happened to someone).
I don't know why you are so quick to dismiss everything about the development of "Kanon" only because he might have never existed as a real person on Rokkenjima. The development implied by his character might very well be true, even if the glorified love between him and Jessica (which was only really made clear in EP6) was probably not true.

Kanon shows that his origin, Yasu, was affraid of getting close to people, even though another side of her, Shannon, wanted that contact and searched it. One part of her wanted to give up, wait for the day "when the door to the golden land opens" and leave everything be because they are mere furniture (almost to the point of being affraid of sex). The other side wanted to resist, wanted love and wanted to struggle. First and foremost they are a representation of that conflict. And you could even find points to argue why one side is a quite ungendered, little boy and the other is a quite mature, busty young woman.

Jessica was able to counter the theories by the outside world in EP8 with the fact that her peers saw her with somebody named Kanon at the school festival. So somebody, who cared about Jessica having no boyfriend, was actually there.
Kanon told her in EP2 that he would never be able to enter a mutual relationship with her, he insisted again and again that he cared for her, but that it was not enough.
We also learned that he had high feelings for the other servants, that Genji was like a rolemodel for him.
On the other hand he had all that bottled up hatred for the family members that Shannon surprisingly had nothing of. He hated Rosa for being cruel, Natsuhi for being incompetent, Eva for being a bitch...basically he hated almost all the women in the family (except Kyrie...but she's basically the unknown factor for Yasu as well). He only comes around during EP6 where he admits that he basically still loved the family for always being good to him.

He was needed for Shannon to be that pure angelic creature that we got on the gameboard. Yasu wrote all her feelings of disgust, anger, hatred, incompetence or weakness over herself and others into Kanon and made Shannon that pure vision of innocence. Both are not Yasu, they are just pieces that, when joined, become part of the larger puzzle.

Even their individual deaths in EP1 and 2 comment on how they individually relate to Yasu I think. Because Eva and Hideyoshi became acomplices "Shannon" had to die, because she couldn't confront George like that anymore. Kanon gave up because what feelings for the survivors he has, they are not enough. And this is again mirrored in EP2, where he wants to protect Jessica, but is too weak in the end, but that does not mean that the love towards George is too weak.

And we have to consider that only the first two Episodes show us how Yasu saw himself and how Yasu split himself into those two. And the realisation of the love between him and Jessica is something that was entered into the forgeries by Tôya after he remembered the truth...so I think it's more of a huge red herring and does not count into the actual characterization...it's like Goldsmith is not actually a characterization of Kinzô.
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Old 2011-07-29, 13:51   Link #23429
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Quote:
I don't know why you are so quick to dismiss everything about the development of "Kanon" only because he might have never existed as a real person on Rokkenjima.
NO, that's not why he's dismissing Kanon at all. He's doing so because Kanon is, according to him, redundant and contributes nothing to the Shannon/Yasu/Beatrice dilemma, only making things convulted and silly.

The rest of your post is complete and utter conjecture.
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Old 2011-07-29, 14:07   Link #23430
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
NO, that's not why he's dismissing Kanon at all. He's doing so because Kanon is, according to him, redundant and contributes nothing to the Shannon/Yasu/Beatrice dilemma, only making things convulted and silly.

The rest of your post is complete and utter conjecture.
Well I understood that about his problem with Kanon, I just disagree with his position, sorry if that came across wrong.
It seems like he's limiting Yasu's dilemma to Shannon=Positivism and Beatrice=Negativism, which appears a little too simple for me. It's not like Kanon isn't part of her dilemma as well...all three are alternatives that open up to her and somehow turn out as dead ends again. Shannon=Active Affirmation of Love, Kanon= Passive Denial of Love, Beatrice= Active Escapism is something close to how I see it...though I'm still not completely satisfied with how I'd term what Beatrice actually is, because she is more a way of action than an actual personality.

And why is it conjecture? Basically everything we do concerning the truth behind the individual and collective Episodes is what you call conjecture. We have no written prove in terms of a confession or a report...but we can work towards a possible truth by inference or reasoning.

And I think the points I made are based on things that were actually in the story and not just weak thoughts. If Kanon was a part of the complete Yasu, then he has traits of Yasu...the Shannon within the Episodes is an example of virtue, while Kanon is harboring all the feelings she does not have. I don't know in what way that is conjecture.

So I'd like to know more about why you think of my position as neglectable conjecture...instead of just telling me it is that.
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Old 2011-07-29, 14:17   Link #23431
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Somehow my kanonfangirlyheart tears up by that but i guess i'll need to be more flexible XD

So, i get the part with Shkannon. It's quite obvious that this theory is true, especially in EP6 where they have this fight against each other where Shannon mentions that it's all "fathers sin", "they should have died right after being born" etc. - in my ears it sounds clear, doesn't it?
Oh, and not to forget the Shannon Will scene.

But theres one thing that confuses me... which role lion actually plays when he/she shows up? I assume that he/she's the "real" yasu... so they just wanted to exhibit what yasus real form could be(appereance, NOT feelingsetc.)?
Otherwise, in my opinion, lion seems absolutely different from yasu. Just a guess.

Someone said that theres a yasu-world and a lion-world... is that true?
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Old 2011-07-29, 14:45   Link #23432
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NO, that's not why he's dismissing Kanon at all. He's doing so because Kanon is, according to him, redundant and contributes nothing to the Shannon/Yasu/Beatrice dilemma, only making things convulted and silly.
Which is only true if you don't understand what Kanon is representing. As I've said before, there's a reason Kanon is a boy specifically.
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Old 2011-07-29, 15:03   Link #23433
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I'm just trying to explain Renall's viewpoint as I see it, musouka, not advocatin' it.

Quote:
But theres one thing that confuses me... which role lion actually plays when he/she shows up? I assume that he/she's the "real" yasu... so they just wanted to exhibit what yasus real form could be(appereance, NOT feelingsetc.)?
Otherwise, in my opinion, lion seems absolutely different from yasu. Just a guess.

Someone said that theres a yasu-world and a lion-world... is that true?
I'm not sure if you read EP7 yet, but basically, Yasu is the one we're family with. The person who decides to be Beatrice, Shannon, and Kanon. Lion is a hypothetical "what-if" alternate self, from a world where Yasu was never abandoned by Natsuhi and was raised lovingly as a member of the Ushiromiya family. A "perfect" self that never had to deal with what Yasu had to.
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Old 2011-07-29, 15:44   Link #23434
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I'm just trying to explain Renall's viewpoint as I see it, musouka, not advocatin' it.



I'm not sure if you read EP7 yet, but basically, Yasu is the one we're family with. The person who decides to be Beatrice, Shannon, and Kanon. Lion is a hypothetical "what-if" alternate self, from a world where Yasu was never abandoned by Natsuhi and was raised lovingly as a member of the Ushiromiya family. A "perfect" self that never had to deal with what Yasu had to.
I've never had thechance to read the EP full, but what you said is just what i was vaguely guessing. Thanks.
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Old 2011-07-29, 17:26   Link #23435
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I'm not sure if you read EP7 yet, but basically, Yasu is the one we're family with. The person who decides to be Beatrice, Shannon, and Kanon. Lion is a hypothetical "what-if" alternate self, from a world where Yasu was never abandoned by Natsuhi and was raised lovingly as a member of the Ushiromiya family. A "perfect" self that never had to deal with what Yasu had to.
Lion was still insecure about his/her gender (which is strange considering Lion never got the injury that Yasu did).
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Old 2011-07-29, 17:53   Link #23436
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I think that's probably because Lion is a fictional character from Yasu's daydreams, so Yasu doesn't know what gender she would've been without the accident. So she left it "blank."

After all, Lion shouldn't have blonde hair either, and it's kind of silly to expect Lion would be super awesome and popular and loved by everyone and stuff just because they were raised as an Ushiromiya.
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Old 2011-07-29, 17:57   Link #23437
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Maybe Lion isn't satisfied with his/her gender. Let's point out the fact that lion never fell down the cliff. Therefore Lion is a male (?) but from his way "he" act more like a girl (that would explain why she/he is interested in both).

EDIT: just forget it, post before make more sense at all xD
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Old 2011-07-29, 20:22   Link #23438
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Something I just realized, although maybe it was obvious... It makes perfect sense for Bernkastel to say something like "I searched through 200,000 fragments and this is the only one where Lion exists." After all, Lion is a character who was basically invented by the author of Requiem, so no other fragments with him/her in it could exist until after Requiem was finished and released.
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Old 2011-07-29, 20:42   Link #23439
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Which implies that there's something around 200,000 Forgeries floating around the internet.
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Old 2011-07-29, 20:56   Link #23440
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Given the number of goats that showed up in Twilight, I'd say that's about right for a number of fragments. The fragments aren't just forgeries, they also seem to represent each theory that a witch hunter ever had about the incident, regardless of whether they wrote about it or not.
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