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Old 2011-07-29, 22:30   Link #23441
Renall
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Quote:
Originally Posted by musouka View Post
Which is only true if you don't understand what Kanon is representing. As I've said before, there's a reason Kanon is a boy specifically.
I can only hope the air isn't too rarified up there on your pedestal. I'd hate to see you pass out and be crushed under the weight of your condescension.

At any rate, Aura is somewhat confusing my two parallel claims, although it's understandable since I haven't really bothered to separate them out. What I'm actually referring to are some of the sections of Kanon's internal monologue. Shannon has similar parts, but the difference basically is that what happens to Shannon appears to be something that could have actually happened to her creator. With Kanon, some of the things he thinks about or remembers seem like things that his creator couldn't have done. It's not clear that these things didn't happen; it's possible they did, but if they did it rather changes a lot of things we presume to know about the person.

Also there's intentionally meaningless details like the red about him from ep4. It literally doesn't do anything to help anyone reason.

So unless that stuff actually means something, and largely even if it does, you wouldn't have missed it were it not there. Were you to miss the things Shannon says and does, you'd actually lose a lot of things of importance.
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Old 2011-07-29, 22:44   Link #23442
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A good example would be their names. Sayo is quite clearly part of Yasu's name. Her name as a lost Ushiromiya is, quite likely, Sayo Yasuda, which is what gave birth to Shannon, given her Servant name.

Kanon was made up whole clothes several years after Yasu began playing pretend, and it's only in one of the Games he gives any sort of personal name: Yoshiya. Where the hell does this come from? We have no indication that he actually had it, ever. Did he just pull it out of his ass to satisfy Jessica? If so, doesn't it negate the whole purpose of growing closer to Jessica in the first place? Their intimacy hasn't increased whatsoever if the Yoshiya name is false.

Even if it were real ("Sayo Yoshiya Yasuda?"), it doesn't contribute anything substantial. Just as an example, Sayo can be translated into 34, which is Lambdadelta, who is Beato's guardian, which means Beato is Shannon holy shitz0rs!

Yoshiya, as far as relevance to anything in Umineko is concerned, doesn't really mean jack fucking shit.

Is this in the right direction, Renall?
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Old 2011-07-29, 22:50   Link #23443
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More or less. There are also things like Kanon's impressions and opinions of people that seem to be different from Shannon and Yasu's. How does that work? Does Yasu have conflicting opinions about people? If so, she doesn't act enough like it. That could just be poor implementation, but the point is he's not as well-integrated into the story and the characters who are (Shannon, Beatrice) fulfill all narratively necessary functions.
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Old 2011-07-29, 22:58   Link #23444
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Quote:
There are also things like Kanon's impressions and opinions of people that seem to be different from Shannon and Yasu's. How does that work? Does Yasu have conflicting opinions about people? If so, she doesn't act enough like it.
Well according to Ryukishi Yasu has Multiple Personality Disorder HERPDEEDERP DEE DILLY DEE DERR

Yea I know, that shit really made me spiral out of control with disappointment and it's kind of consuming my goddamn personality. I can't believe he knew someone who has an actual MPD person(s) in their life (me) and....completely failed to utilize that outside of the Bollywood cliche crap. It's like he didn't listen to a damn thing I said.
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Old 2011-07-29, 22:59   Link #23445
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I would agree, when Kanon held back his name I was like ''Dude this is gonna be so important!''.

He gives his name and I'm thinking:
''Uh, okay cool I guess, hi Yoshiya.''
''Is his name important but I cannot see the importance?!? Is his name just for development?!? The hell was the point in these two getting together anyway? Kanon basically just said ''Okay I'll stop being furniture and I'm ready to fight a 5-6 year long relationship to prove my uber-love for Jessica! Teehee!''

If one episode was all it took(the very beginning before the twilights even started) to get Kanon to quit being such a crybaby then what was the point for him? I don't think I can count the fact that it was the 6th episode, because that would be the same as accepting that they knew everything that happened in the previous tales. I really loved him and had expectations for him, but it feels as if he was moved to a disposable piece after EP4, and EP 6 was the last bit of fan service that made his origin be clearer.

Well, I sound like I'm complaining, but I liked it, I still felt that Kanon became useless though , and save for that awesome act he did of running into a room and setting a chain lock, I really didn't care for him and wasn't sad when he lost the duel to Shannon.
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Old 2011-07-29, 23:25   Link #23446
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The fact that Ryu is going with literal Hollywood multiple personalities kinda distresses me - it sort of flies directly in the face of the entire point of the "White Magic" theme. "Maria didn't create a world of friends and happiness - she was suffering from some mutated, INVERSED Hinamizawa syndrome!"

Kanon's treatment in EP7 still comes off as Ryu just not knowing how to present that situation, or he had plain wrote himself too deep in Shkanon to back out. >_>

Side note, I was walking on the outskirts of Otakon today, noting the cosplayers in the nearby food cart. There was a really awesome and accurate Kanon that almost slipped my sight going down the escalator, and my thought reflex was "Thought you could get by me without being observed, huh!? Nice try, Kanon-kun, nice try."
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Old 2011-07-30, 00:30   Link #23447
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
After all, Lion shouldn't have blonde hair either, and it's kind of silly to expect Lion would be super awesome and popular and loved by everyone and stuff just because they were raised as an Ushiromiya.
I don't think that the hair color is much of a clue. Despite everyone being Japanese, Kyrie has Silver hair (is she just old?), Jessica has blonde, and a lot of other characters have orange or red hair. Also, knowing genetics, Beatrice II should've probably had dark hair herself (and there's no way Japanese + Italian = blue-eyed kid). Beatrice II, Jessica, Lion, Yasu-Beatrice (if she ever actually appeared) could just be using hair coloring or wigs. Either that or it's just the usual anime eye/hair color bullcrap.

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Well according to Ryukishi Yasu has Multiple Personality Disorder HERPDEEDERP DEE DILLY DEE DERR
I don't know much about MPD, but I did find it strange that Yasu would have premeditated personality transitions (this would be necessary to change clothing to suit particular situations). Basically, there would have to be an overriding individual consciousness that actively decided which persona to present at a given time... which seems less like multiple personalities and more like an individual who is a really good actor.
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Old 2011-07-30, 00:44   Link #23448
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That's exactly the problem. That's clearly what the text actually supports. But is that what the author actually believes? I'm not entirely clear on it from his interviews.
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Old 2011-07-30, 03:49   Link #23449
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? Kanon basically just said ''Okay I'll stop being furniture and I'm ready to fight a 5-6 year long relationship to prove my uber-love for Jessica! Teehee!''

If one episode was all it took(the very beginning before the twilights even started) to get Kanon to quit being such a crybaby then what was the point for him? I don't think I can count the fact that it was the 6th episode, because that would be the same as accepting that they knew everything that happened in the previous tales.
Two nitpicks: The Shannon romance is only two years old at most, and....yea, KANON AND SHANNON REMEMBER PAST EPISODES according to the magical narrative.

Which is legit since the Love duel was meta-plane magic shit anyway.

Quote:
The fact that Ryu is going with literal Hollywood multiple personalities kinda distresses me - it sort of flies directly in the face of the entire point of the "White Magic" theme. "Maria didn't create a world of friends and happiness - she was suffering from some mutated, INVERSED Hinamizawa syndrome!"
Not at all. Exercising the power of escapist stress relief and forgiveness-by-denial isn't the same as one person experiencing a psychotic fracture and pretending to be three different people.

Quote:
I don't think that the hair color is much of a clue. Despite everyone being Japanese, Kyrie has Silver hair (is she just old?), Jessica has blonde, and a lot of other characters have orange or red hair. Also, knowing genetics, Beatrice II should've probably had dark hair herself (and there's no way Japanese + Italian = blue-eyed kid). Beatrice II, Jessica, Lion, Yasu-Beatrice (if she ever actually appeared) could just be using hair coloring or wigs. Either that or it's just the usual anime eye/hair color bullcrap.
Well yea, everyone probably look like black haired asians, but since LION DOESN'T EXIST, he doesn't have an appearance outside of what we are shown. He doesn't have genitals unless they are specifically mentioned to exist, even. He's an unperson.

Quote:
I don't know much about MPD, but I did find it strange that Yasu would have premeditated personality transitions (this would be necessary to change clothing to suit particular situations). Basically, there would have to be an overriding individual consciousness that actively decided which persona to present at a given time... which seems less like multiple personalities and more like an individual who is a really good actor.
Yea...which is why Ryukishi's implication of MPD is bullshit.
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Old 2011-07-30, 10:47   Link #23450
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Comon AT, you clearly need to track Ryukishi down and murder his family using your premediated witch personality explain to him how MPD works.
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Old 2011-07-30, 12:35   Link #23451
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
With Kanon, some of the things he thinks about or remembers seem like things that his creator couldn't have done. It's not clear that these things didn't happen; it's possible they did, but if they did it rather changes a lot of things we presume to know about the person.
What things are those exactly and what is it that it changes what "we" presume about the author? I'm really sorry, but you're not talking perfectly clear either and I'd actually like to talk about this. You don't have to list all if it should be many things you perceive as problematic...but at least give me one or two, because so far I can't seem to find any.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanderer
Basically, there would have to be an overriding individual consciousness that actively decided which persona to present at a given time... which seems less like multiple personalities and more like an individual who is a really good actor.
I would explain this with the fact that none of the events we see in the Episodes excluding some parts of 7 are reality, but fiction. It's how Yasu wanted the individual parts of her to be written. It's more like she split herself into several pieces and they all act out different parts of her emotions.

I think it's no accident that we don't get to meet Kanon in EP7 apart from some very few scenes. And that we don't get to know anything about their fate in the Tea party.
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Old 2011-07-30, 13:16   Link #23452
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What things are those exactly and what is it that it changes what "we" presume about the author? I'm really sorry, but you're not talking perfectly clear either and I'd actually like to talk about this. You don't have to list all if it should be many things you perceive as problematic...but at least give me one or two, because so far I can't seem to find any.
Try Kanon's internal monologue at the end of ep6. I think there's also one in either ep2 or ep4. He also has some differences of opinion in dialogue with Shannon but that's another matter.
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Old 2011-07-30, 15:22   Link #23453
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Comon AT, you clearly need to track Ryukishi down and murder his family using your premediated witch personality explain to him how MPD works.
I already did that before he finished writing Higurashi. He really has no goddamn excuse.
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Old 2011-07-30, 15:50   Link #23454
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Try Kanon's internal monologue at the end of ep6. I think there's also one in either ep2 or ep4. He also has some differences of opinion in dialogue with Shannon but that's another matter.
But what exactly is the problem with his inner monologues differing from those of Shannon? If he is, as I presume, a whole other part of Yasu's personality than Shannon it is perfectly understandable that his worldview, his ideas and his goals are completely different as well.
I don't know if you read my post where I wrote how I see Kanon (I think 1 or 2 pages earlier...the one that AT called conjecture), but I seem to be unable to understand your problem with him being different from Shannon. Beatrice is different from Shannon as well and you seem to accept that.

I think you are referring to the monologue when he comes to Battler's rescue?
I just reread that part from the duel of love to the fight of red truth. I really don't know where the problem lies. I'm even more firm in my impression now that s/he had feelings for both George and Jessica, just that the feelings for Jessica were never as strong as the love towards George.
Where is the problem at that point? Kanon basically says that he was the part of Yasu that was even more afraid of love, the part that tried living as a servant, but that even that way people treated "him" nice. You have to be more specific if you want to point out a problem.

And the differences in opinion in dialogue with Shannon have to be there, don't they? They represent two different points of view. He's not only there to keep Shannon company, he also holds all the feelings Shannon does not hold...which I think becomes extremely clear when rereading EP2. Why shouldn't they be of different opinion if Yasu isn't sure about certain things him/herself?

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight
I already did that before he finished writing Higurashi. He really has no goddamn excuse.
Too bad not all people agree that it's MPD in Umineko, right?!
And where exactly was there MPD in Higurashi.

Really...are you that condescending or am I just not getting your humour?!
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Old 2011-07-30, 19:01   Link #23455
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Too bad not all people agree that it's MPD in Umineko, right?!
And where exactly was there MPD in Higurashi.

Really...are you that condescending or am I just not getting your humour?!
You seem to have misunderstood what I said entirely. For starters I wasn't implying there was MPD in Higurashi whatsoever.

I've had the oppurtunity to speak with Ryukishi on a few occasions. We're acquaintances because he's friends with a relative of mine, and since we're both writers, we exchanged ideas back in....2006, I think it was?

Anyway, one of my aunts has Multiple Personalities and is a high-functioning, stable person(s) who is comfortable with her condition and all her selves are treated as individual family members. The subject came up when I mentioned drawing inspiration from her, fascinated with the multiplicity of the individual and the externalization of inner aspects as other selves.

Where this gets funny is that two of her personalities are named Shannon and Beatrice (though otherwise have nothing in common with his characters). Since there are other names in there like Alfred, James, Maria, Andy, Virgil, and the like, I didn't think much of it. He clearly already had Beatrice picked out for the literary allusions, and I thought more highly of his creativity. Even if Shannontrice was true, it didn't have to mean MPD.

....Then Shkanontrice happened. And I was one of the biggest arguers that Yasu was just an emotionally unstable actress who indulged in escapist roleplaying.

Then Ryukishi describes her in an interview as having "programs" and "modes" and that different selves had different thoughts, opinions, and goals.

Which brings us to stereotypical bollywood MPD in order for this to be workable in the narrative as written.

Well FUCK THAT.
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Old 2011-07-30, 20:17   Link #23456
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Then Ryukishi describes her in an interview as having "programs" and "modes" and that different selves had different thoughts, opinions, and goals.

Which brings us to stereotypical bollywood MPD in order for this to be workable in the narrative as written.

Well FUCK THAT.
I think you are refering to the interview with KEIYA I translated? Well I think you got some of that wrong or at least it's not as heavily hinting towards MPD as you might think.

 肉体は紗音であっても、というか元々肉体は誰々という考え方はないんですよ。結局ソフトウェアだけの問題 ですから。中身は違う人間であれば譲冶を殺せますね。服は人格じゃありませんから。服や髪型は紗音かもしれ ません。でも譲冶に対して何かを問いかけた際に、別の人物だった可能性があります。」

That may sound like he is talking about MPD, but that would only be the case if that is something that is true in the case of Yasu in the real world as well, which we can't know at all. We never get to know the real Yasu from an objective outside perspective, we only know how she made her world within her mind and how Tôya continued to transmit that worldview through his forgeries.

It's quite possible that there never were a Kanon and Shannon on the real Rokkenjima, but just an indecisive person with intersexual traits who was standing between two people s/he liked. And that person expressed that problem in the stories by dividing her/himself into two people...well actually into three because an old flame came back as well.
Kanon and Shannon only have to work in the narrative within the narrative, not within the reality of the narrative...it's rather the huge hint that they do not work within the reality of Rokkenjima.

OT: If you're actually acquainted with Ryűkishi, would you mind sending me a PM about how high the chances might be to win him for an interview for an academic work?
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Old 2011-07-30, 20:28   Link #23457
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Where this gets funny is that two of her personalities are named Shannon and Beatrice (though otherwise have nothing in common with his characters). Since there are other names in there like Alfred, James, Maria, Andy, Virgil, and the like, I didn't think much of it. He clearly already had Beatrice picked out for the literary allusions, and I thought more highly of his creativity. Even if Shannontrice was true, it didn't have to mean MPD.

....Then Shkanontrice happened. And I was one of the biggest arguers that Yasu was just an emotionally unstable actress who indulged in escapist roleplaying.

Then Ryukishi describes her in an interview as having "programs" and "modes" and that different selves had different thoughts, opinions, and goals.

Which brings us to stereotypical bollywood MPD in order for this to be workable in the narrative as written.

Well FUCK THAT.
Looks like Yasu survived the Rokkenjima incident and got a couple of more extra people to be. Are you then related to the Ushiromiya?
(I hope that didn't sound like I'm suggesting your aunt is a mass-murderer or anything...)

When I read the interview with KEIYA I didn't find anything screaming MPD. You could still interpret the "programs" and "modes" as the characters Yasu feels like playing. Different characters have different thoughts, opinions and goals. Or as haguruma suggested, not even as characters to playact, but just characters in a book that represents her conflicts. "Programs in the Yasu OS" seems to suggest something more physical though.

It does sound a bit suspicious however, and if Ryukishi took too direct inspiration from your aunt... If he's planning to make Umineko Rei, I'd suggest someone to force-feed him his mistake so he could somehow correct it.

About Yoshiya, I think it might be just Sayo backwards, like Sa-yo -> Yo-sa -> Yo-shiya. Easy name fakery.

So the red seems to work like after Kanon and Shannon have been declared dead, an extra life called Yasu (or perhaps Beatrice) becomes available. She is never declared dead so she can move around as much as she wants.
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Old 2011-07-30, 20:51   Link #23458
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Hm, Yoshiya does sound like it's combined with Ushiromiya as well, now that you mention that. Man I suck at noticing little things like this.
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Old 2011-07-30, 20:56   Link #23459
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Still say its an allusion to Jesus!
Sayo- Yaso- 耶蘇
Yasu- iesu
Yoshiya-Joshua- Jeshua
Lion- Leeon - Leone - Lion of Judah (Isnt his emblem suppose to be a lion as well?)

It goes well with Yasu being the scapegoat to the crimes in rokkenjima, taking all the blame and sins unto itself. The japanese wouldnt be able to pick up on the allusion that much because of cultural issues and other factors. Yaso for Jesus is archaic and they would call him Iesu now. They have their own pop culture so they would just see Yasu as just another shout out to that meme.


e- As for our Yasu and how she might have splits or not. Here's what wikipedia says about BPE

At least three of the symptoms mentioned in F60.30 Impulsive type must be present [see above], with at least two of the following in addition:

disturbances in and uncertainty about self-image, aims, and internal preferences (including sexual); - Check
liability to become involved in intense and unstable relationships, often leading to emotional crisis; - Check
excessive efforts to avoid abandonment; - Check
recurrent threats or acts of self-harm; - Check (and harm others no less!)
chronic feelings of emptiness. - Check

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Old 2011-07-30, 22:00   Link #23460
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Quote:
That may sound like he is talking about MPD, but that would only be the case if that is something that is true in the case of Yasu in the real world as well, which we can't know at all. We never get to know the real Yasu from an objective outside perspective, we only know how she made her world within her mind and how Tôya continued to transmit that worldview through his forgeries.

It's quite possible that there never were a Kanon and Shannon on the real Rokkenjima, but just an indecisive person with intersexual traits who was standing between two people s/he liked. And that person expressed that problem in the stories by dividing her/himself into two people...well actually into three because an old flame came back as well.
Kanon and Shannon only have to work in the narrative within the narrative, not within the reality of the narrative...it's rather the huge hint that they do not work within the reality of Rokkenjima.
That's a total copout answer, and not at all implied within the text or Ryukishi's interviews.

Quote:
OT: If you're actually acquainted with Ryűkishi, would you mind sending me a PM about how high the chances might be to win him for an interview for an academic work?
I'm afraid it's not my place to say. We don't speak much so I can't really pull any favors or predict his schedules or anything like that. We've only spoken all of once since BT died.

Quote:
Looks like Yasu survived the Rokkenjima incident and got a couple of more extra people to be. Are you then related to the Ushiromiya?
(I hope that didn't sound like I'm suggesting your aunt is a mass-murderer or anything...)
It'd be hilarious; I'm part italian and part Japanese and I'm pretty much the second Yasu, lol.

Quote:
When I read the interview with KEIYA I didn't find anything screaming MPD. You could still interpret the "programs" and "modes" as the characters Yasu feels like playing. Different characters have different thoughts, opinions and goals. Or as haguruma suggested, not even as characters to playact, but just characters in a book that represents her conflicts. "Programs in the Yasu OS" seems to suggest something more physical though.
The thing is that he consistently seems to treat her inner conflict as if it were an EXTERNAL conflict between different people, instead of Yasu being merely indecisive.

Quote:
It goes well with Yasu being the scapegoat to the crimes in rokkenjima, taking all the blame and sins unto itself. The japanese wouldnt be able to pick up on the allusion that much because of cultural issues and other factors. Yaso for Jesus is archaic and they would call him Iesu now. They have their own pop culture so they would just see Yasu as just another shout out to that meme.
That would work if Yasu wasn't the culprit, but Ryukishi seems to be saying she is in his interviews, even in Rokkenjima Prime.

Also, what's BPE?
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