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Old 2011-07-31, 21:55   Link #23501
cronnoponno
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I have a question, when Ange was in that gunfight in EP 4, well, about to be shot to death, or whatever happened.


In the scene depicted, did she completely just give in and accept delusions and basically, go crazy and think magic was actually happening? Or did she know Amakusa sniped them and just played it off as magic?
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Old 2011-07-31, 22:02   Link #23502
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cronnoponno View Post
I have a question, when Ange was in that gunfight in EP 4, well, about to be shot to death, or whatever happened.


In the scene depicted, did she completely just give in and accept delusions and basically, go crazy and think magic was actually happening? Or did she know Amakusa sniped them and just played it off as magic?
I think it depends on how you want to view Ange...
Is she merely crazy and somebody who gives into delusions just to satisfy herself and feel superior to others? Or is she escaping into a world of magic which is just accidently supported by reality? Or is she actively trying to make the Sumaderas believe she is a witch?

I think it largely points towards her knowing it isn't real magic, but painting it with what she learned what magic is about.
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Old 2011-07-31, 22:09   Link #23503
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I actually have no clue, it could be both things. Certainly if she thought it was Amakusa she was really playing too much with those fantasies. And I also doubt she managed to see him so, even then, she was just expecting him to start shooting at the right moment for no reason.

Additionally we don't even know what exactly that event was. Was it a fictional scene written in a forgery? Was it a "real" alternative reality who happened in one of many worlds?
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Old 2011-07-31, 22:19   Link #23504
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Originally Posted by cronnoponno View Post
I have a question, when Ange was in that gunfight in EP 4, well, about to be shot to death, or whatever happened.


In the scene depicted, did she completely just give in and accept delusions and basically, go crazy and think magic was actually happening? Or did she know Amakusa sniped them and just played it off as magic?
No more than, say, the scene in Natsuhi's room in EP2 indicates that George and Gohda went crazy or decided to play it off as magic. In both scenes, since all of the witnesses who would be willing to tell what happened are dead, the fate of the victims became a cat box to the outside world. As a result, anyone can impose a magical explanation on it (like Tohya or some random Witch Hunter).
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Old 2011-07-31, 22:54   Link #23505
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Ange's characterization up to that point states that she 'understands what magic is without projecting anti-magic toxin', meaning that she effectively knows that magic is lies but is able to see the beauty in it. She shouldn't be able to think she can kill bitches with magical powers (and she knows first hand this isn't possible from her school days), and is just trolling or something. If people unexpectedly died in response to 'magic', she should be freaking the fuck out, which implies she knows that Amakusa is doing this.

Either Ange knows exactly what's going on, or we have a plot hole, regardless of the validity of the scene.
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Old 2011-08-01, 08:20   Link #23506
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Ever heard the saying: "there are no atheists in foxholes"?

While I don't think it's 100% true, there is some merit in that idea. People tend to believe in supernatural a lot more when facing a crisis, especially when they have absolutely no power to overcome it. Sudden conversions are not unheard of. If Ange started to seriously believe in magic in that situation, considering she wasn't totally sane to begin with, I don't think it would be that unnatural.
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Old 2011-08-01, 10:08   Link #23507
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Ever heard the saying: "there are no atheists in foxholes"?

While I don't think it's 100% true, there is some merit in that idea. People tend to believe in supernatural a lot more when facing a crisis, especially when they have absolutely no power to overcome it. Sudden conversions are not unheard of. If Ange started to seriously believe in magic in that situation, considering she wasn't totally sane to begin with, I don't think it would be that unnatural.
It's completely false. The proportion of atheists in the military is about equal to the proportion of atheists in the population as a whole.

People have also been known to have total losses of faith under crises.
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Old 2011-08-01, 10:16   Link #23508
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Am I the only one who doesn't think Ange is really insane at all? Not even a little bit? She's way too rational and clear-thinking in her dialogue and actions. Even in instances where she supposedly "snaps," she behaves with a sort of calculated precision her mother would be proud of.

She might be lonely, but I can't call her crazy, not even "not totally sane." She strikes me as, if anything, a bit too sane for someone who has to cope with everything she's had to deal with.
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Old 2011-08-01, 12:00   Link #23509
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Thats more of her psychological personality coming trough. She seems very INTJish specially after the academy incident where she turned her back to all things magic.

But yeah, I dont see her as crazy. But rather as giving the probability of magic a chance to exist instead of outright denying it.
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Old 2011-08-01, 13:26   Link #23510
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Quote:
Ever heard the saying: "there are no atheists in foxholes"?
Yea, and it's bullshit. Anyone who gives up their convictions when their life was in danger was never really convicted at all. They were just atheist to be cool or edgy or mad at God or some bullshit, usually.

Quote:
While I don't think it's 100% true, there is some merit in that idea. People tend to believe in supernatural a lot more when facing a crisis, especially when they have absolutely no power to overcome it. Sudden conversions are not unheard of. If Ange started to seriously believe in magic in that situation, considering she wasn't totally sane to begin with, I don't think it would be that unnatural.
The difference is Ange came to understand the true nature of magic, and knows exactly what it is. It's not like an atheist that isn't 100% sure if he's true or false about his lack of religious belief. What's Ange gonna do, shout, "SAVE ME, SUPERNATURAL POWERS THAT FAILED ME IN THIS EXACT TASK BEFORE!" You think she'd of cast a different spell, at the very least.

Quote:
Am I the only one who doesn't think Ange is really insane at all? Not even a little bit? She's way too rational and clear-thinking in her dialogue and actions. Even in instances where she supposedly "snaps," she behaves with a sort of calculated precision her mother would be proud of.

She might be lonely, but I can't call her crazy, not even "not totally sane." She strikes me as, if anything, a bit too sane for someone who has to cope with everything she's had to deal with.
I agree. The thing about Ange is that she's pretty much on the way to becoming another Kyrie (or perhaps Erika), and magic isn't so much giving her an irrational view of reality so much as keeping her sense of empathy in check, as demonstrated through all of Ange's characterization. Regardless of the moral qualms a reader might have with it, in every case where Ange respects magic she is using it as a tool to understand and care about someone instead of sneering down at them.
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Old 2011-08-01, 14:24   Link #23511
cronnoponno
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I just ask because when I first read the scene, I thought that all that shit literally happened, then I read more into EP 5 and 6 and started understanding the Fantasy scenes a little better, and I agree with what AT said on the issue, but I just wanted to make sure if that was the case.
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Old 2011-08-01, 20:31   Link #23512
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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
We have no reason to believe that she was actually dressing up to play roles in real life, that is outside of any of the stories, at any point. We can assume that she went around the mansion covered with a white bedsheet to pretend to be a ghost, maybe there even was a Beatrice costume...but there is no evidence that she ever actively switched between her Kanon and Shannon roles in real life.
The only point that ever adresses something like that is, that there was an ungendered "boy" accompanying Jessica at the school festival. But that doesn't actually prove that Yasu was Kanon the whole time.
Knox's 8th. It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not PRESENTED!!

There is nothing in the story that supports your claim that I can think of. Part of me wants to believe your claim, because I also have problems with the logistical viability of playing two roles in a very small social circle for three years without people finding out. However I can't, and here are three reasons:

First:
In all of the Beatrice arcs (and maybe in the answer arcs as well; I would have to review to confirm) Kanon and Shannon both appear in front of (piece) Battler, but never at the same time. However, both appear at the same time in front of others regularly. Also, without Kanon as an acknowledged existence, none of the arcs' narratives make sense (Kanon's death often marked a place in the epitaph, for example). Thus there is a consensus that both Shannon and Kanon exist/appear, which is verified by (piece) Battler's own observations (Kinzo's existence is never verified by Battler). The narrative hint to (meta) Battler is that both appear, but are the same person. I understand that you are saying that the stories are just stories, but this is me disagreeing with that premise; I think that this part of the story is intended to tell us something about reality, otherwise why set up for the big "reveal" that Kanon and Shannon are the same person if there was no such secret in the first place?

Second:
Only Oct. 4th and 5th of 1986 are in the cat box. There are tons of other ways to gather evidence that could deny your claim of Yasu never dressing as Kanon. What about interviewing the several other servants who worked on Rokkenjima but weren't there Oct. 4th and 5th; did they never run into Kanon? What about the ferry captain? What about survivor Eva? What of official or unofficial records (like tax/employment documents or Maria's diary)? WHAT ABOUT ANGE HERSELF BEING ON THE ISLAND IN PERSON DURING THE FAMILY CONFERENCES IN 1984 AND 1985 (and possibly other times too)? The fact that Ryukishi did not address the possibility of Kanon never appearing through any of these methods (all of which reside outside the cat box) tells the reader to believe that the general consensus was that Kanon existed

Third:
It was the shared experience with Jessica at school that started the love route between Kanon and Jessica, as well as Kanon getting an idea of "what it means to be human", both of which are central points of the entire Umineko narrative. If that boy wasn't Yasu, then Kanon has no place whatsoever in the story.

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Aren't most mysteries based on absolutely unconvincing human behaviour?
Not at all. I especially have a problem with your use of the word "absolutely". Mysteries involve motives, and if the motive makes no sense, why even have it at all?

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Ever heard the saying: "there are no atheists in foxholes"?

While I don't think it's 100% true, there is some merit in that idea. People tend to believe in supernatural a lot more when facing a crisis, especially when they have absolutely no power to overcome it. Sudden conversions are not unheard of. If Ange started to seriously believe in magic in that situation, considering she wasn't totally sane to begin with, I don't think it would be that unnatural.
Agreed. Ange was under a lot of psychological stress, combined with an extraordinary objective context... which is exactly the kind of circumstance to produce "magic" in Ange's subjective context. (Not to say that Ange isn't well aware that magic does not actually exist in the objective context).
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Old 2011-08-01, 21:11   Link #23513
Cao Ni Ma
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At any time that Kanon and Shannon where present with another person it meant that the person's point of view is questionable. Hideoshi lied about Shannon, Rosa lied about Shannon/Kanon/ Kinzo, Kyrie and everyone in that group lied about Shannon/Kanon/Kinzo. And yeah its pretty silly and most people with a critical eye using the reds would be able to realize something is up with Shannon/Kanon by episode 3.

Its either just what it is and RK07 is just a simple dude when it comes to plot twists or there might be another thing going around. Right now though the catbox is sealed and there is no way to find that truth out.

For your second point- I dont think there is any evidence of Shannon/Kanon existing in Rokkenjima Prime. Ange certainly never mentions it and she could have asked the captain to tell her if there where any notable servants going to the island on the days leading to the incident. Hell, I dont think there's any info on Gohda either so lets assume he's part of Shkanon.

I dont get your third angle so Im not commenting on it.
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Old 2011-08-01, 21:54   Link #23514
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Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma View Post
At any time that Kanon and Shannon where present with another person it meant that the person's point of view is questionable. Hideoshi lied about Shannon, Rosa lied about Shannon/Kanon/ Kinzo, Kyrie and everyone in that group lied about Shannon/Kanon/Kinzo. And yeah its pretty silly and most people with a critical eye using the reds would be able to realize something is up with Shannon/Kanon by episode 3.

Its either just what it is and RK07 is just a simple dude when it comes to plot twists or there might be another thing going around. Right now though the catbox is sealed and there is no way to find that truth out.

For your second point- I dont think there is any evidence of Shannon/Kanon existing in Rokkenjima Prime. Ange certainly never mentions it and she could have asked the captain to tell her if there where any notable servants going to the island on the days leading to the incident. Hell, I dont think there's any info on Gohda either so lets assume he's part of Shkanon.

I dont get your third angle so Im not commenting on it.
Well, my post is a reply to haguruma's assertion that Yasu never even dressed as Kanon in the first place; that's all.

However, the idea that every time both Yasus appeared meant that something deceitful was afoot is an interesting idea I had not thought of.
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Old 2011-08-01, 21:56   Link #23515
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
WHAT ABOUT ANGE HERSELF BEING ON THE ISLAND IN PERSON DURING THE FAMILY CONFERENCES IN 1984 AND 1985 (and possibly other times too)?
Ange was 5 years old in 1985, so "Ange should have remembered X" isn't really a valid basis for anything.

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Third:
It was the shared experience with Jessica at school that started the love route between Kanon and Jessica, as well as Kanon getting an idea of "what it means to be human", both of which are central points of the entire Umineko narrative. If that boy wasn't Yasu, then Kanon has no place whatsoever in the story.
Well, Yasu doesn't actually have to pretend to be two people on Rokkenjima in order to help Jessica at the culture festival by pretending to be her boyfriend.
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Old 2011-08-01, 23:00   Link #23516
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Ange was 5 years old in 1985, so "Ange should have remembered X" isn't really a valid basis for anything.

Well, Yasu doesn't actually have to pretend to be two people on Rokkenjima in order to help Jessica at the culture festival by pretending to be her boyfriend.
I don't disagree on either account.

For the first part, five year old Ange could easily have forgotten, or not met Kanon regardless of whether Yasu dressed as him or not. But, this is just one of many vectors that could confirm Yasu's dressing as Kanon, all of which were not addressed by Ryukishi. As a storyteller, his silence in this regard leaves us to believe that we should not veer from what is presented to us (that Yasu dressed as both Shannon and Kanon), lest he break Knox's 8th rule.

The second point is also true (although haguruma's premise in the first place was that the boy may not have been Yasu). A hypothetical Yasu, who had never dressed as Kanon before or since, could have simply dressed to be Jessica's boyfriend that one time, gone to the school, and had the Kanon aspect of herself start to fall in love with Jessica; and Yasu's Kanon aspect, which was in love with Jessica, was later metaphorically represented by its integration in all the different arcs as an actual person. Now, first off there is Knox's 8th rule again; are there any clues presented that point to this? None that I can think of. I can think of some questions that this scenario would bring up, though: 1) How did Jessica arrange this with Shannon?; it seems awkward for either party to bring up. 2) If Yasu dressed male once, why should we not think he would do it again, as Kanon? 3) Is Yasu's attraction to Jessica entirely one-sided and anything that suggests Jessica is attracted to Yasu just fiction, or is Jessica attracted to Yasu without Yasu playing Kanon? Either way changes Jessica's character completely.
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Old 2011-08-02, 04:59   Link #23517
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Second:
Only Oct. 4th and 5th of 1986 are in the cat box. There are tons of other ways to gather evidence that could deny your claim of Yasu never dressing as Kanon.
Well, in the end it was proven that everything in the past was an individual cat box of itself, because the past tends to be shrouded in mystery. Yes, Oct. 4th and 5th are the central cat box created by Yasu and the forgeries, but everything that is not witnessed by yourself is a cat box until you get definitive proof...which doesn't exist in the real world unless you believe in witches.

Quote:
Third:
It was the shared experience with Jessica at school that started the love route between Kanon and Jessica, as well as Kanon getting an idea of "what it means to be human", both of which are central points of the entire Umineko narrative. If that boy wasn't Yasu, then Kanon has no place whatsoever in the story.

The second point is also true (although haguruma's premise in the first place was that the boy may not have been Yasu). [...] 1) How did Jessica arrange this with Shannon?; it seems awkward for either party to bring up. 2) If Yasu dressed male once, why should we not think he would do it again, as Kanon? 3) Is Yasu's attraction to Jessica entirely one-sided and anything that suggests Jessica is attracted to Yasu just fiction, or is Jessica attracted to Yasu without Yasu playing Kanon? Either way changes Jessica's character completely.
I'm sorry, but I think you got that a little wrong, or I expressed myself wrong.
I never claimed that the boy was not Yasu, I merely said that there was no definitive need for Yasu to don a costume on Rokkenjima at that point. Yes, the costume would fall under a "presented hint" through several instances in the story, bit I still think it's not necessary.
If we include the first meeting between Jessica and Kanon described in EP6 her words were something along the line of "What...a new servant? You're a boy? How old are you?". Her surprise appeared kind of odd to me...
What I'm actually saying is that neither Shannon nor Kanon are perfectly true and that s/he is maybe as andogynous as portrayed with Lion and just got involved with both cousins as s/he was.

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Not at all. I especially have a problem with your use of the word "absolutely". Mysteries involve motives, and if the motive makes no sense, why even have it at all?
Absolutely was maybe a little strong to use at that point. But this is what I actually meant, having an unrealistic motive does not mean it is a motive that does not make sense.
Doesn't a mystery live from the fact that you don't guess the motive, the method and the culprit immediatly? And for that it has to be improbable but not impossible. My claim is just that realism and logic are two different concepts that don't have to go hand in hand in a novel.
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Old 2011-08-02, 12:00   Link #23518
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I'm pretty sure this is meaningless, but why do the Siesta's change their attitude in later episodes after they're introduced? In EP 3 they were scared shitless of Battler staring at them because he simply wasn't affected by their attack, yet in EP 5 they were probably the only ones who actually did anything when Beatrice butted in on the wedding, and during episode 8 they stood their ground and fought to the very end(at least as far as the patch says, anyway).
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Old 2011-08-02, 12:21   Link #23519
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Because inconsistent characterization of meta-world characters is really nothing unique to them.
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Old 2011-08-02, 12:33   Link #23520
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Well, what if the fact that they were only scared of Battler mainly means something important? Or the fact that Evatrice was the one who summoned them?
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