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Old 2011-08-04, 08:36   Link #23581
FirstTwilight
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
That's bullshit, and you know it.
Yeah, it's bullshit, just like the fact that Yasu was really planning to kill everyone... oh wait. Get down from your pedestal and stop acting like you posses all the answers to Umineko.

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The 'story' of the Meta-World is to deliver ideas to the reader, and causality and characterization and everything else must take a backseat to this. This has been obvious since the beginning with Battler's immense doublethink, where despite talking to a witch, and supernatural stuff happening around him and bitches teleporting all over the place and time stopping and rewinding and everything he still insists "witches don't exist lol."
Have we been reading the same thing? The story in the meta-world has a storyline and a logic. I know that now with Tohya introduction and whatever people act like OMG EVERYTHING IS METAPHORICAL but ever since ep 1 the Meta-World has its own rules, Featherine even explains some of them.

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That's because, as a character, Meta-Battler is just a vehicle to scrutinize what we're fed and call our attention to stuff that's most obviously bullshit, acting as essentially 'the voice of reason', of which he is incompetent at so that the reader has the fun of doing the work themselves.
Maybe, but Meta-Battler is also his own character and he's part of a storyline.


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Because she wasn't walking around at the time of the funeral. Even EP6's end says that "reviving Beatrice" is the same as "putting her to rest." The moment Battler and Beatrice realized their feelings for each other, she fulfilled her purpose as a piece and probably ceased existing.
Uh, i'm sorry, but what? Battler even says he will continue to write tales of her inside the catbox, forever and ever.

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Yea, and so is Dungeons and Dragons. The characters you pretend to be act like everything is real but they're just puppets wandering around inside the imagination of the Dungeon Master. Same thing.
Too bad the characters in Dungeons and Dragons don't show near their players and talk to them like many characters like Evatrice did. There is even an Ange walking around as a result of their games. (ep IV-VI Ange)
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Old 2011-08-04, 09:28   Link #23582
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Originally Posted by FirstTwilight View Post
Too bad the characters in Dungeons and Dragons don't show near their players and talk to them like many characters like Evatrice did. There is even an Ange walking around as a result of their games. (ep IV-VI Ange)
Well, it depends on how good is your imagination. That would be a perfect way to roleplay your own character. It's basically the same as asking to yourself "What would my character do/say in this situation?"
Anything you see in your imagination is clearly optional, and this could be a good way to play your character in a realistic matter. It's a matter of personification of your character.
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Old 2011-08-04, 11:35   Link #23583
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Originally Posted by FirstTwilight View Post
Yeah, it's bullshit, just like the fact that Yasu was really planning to kill everyone... oh wait. Get down from your pedestal and stop acting like you posses all the answers to Umineko.
Well, actually, while his dialogue's tone confuses me(I'm assuming it's nothing with malice though), his posts usually help me to understand things better at times. I don't think it has anything to do with arrogance, I would much rather hear his opinion on many of these matters.

I also think that ''ceasing to exist'' is an entirely different Beatrice, he can write about any Beatrice he wants and even give her the same heart, but it just isn't the same. Or something...
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Old 2011-08-04, 11:52   Link #23584
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It's a different Beatrice, but it's the same Beatrice.

Like some kind of... photocopy. Or something.

Yeah, I don't know either.
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Old 2011-08-04, 11:56   Link #23585
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
It's a different Beatrice, but it's the same Beatrice.

Like some kind of... photocopy. Or something.

Yeah, I don't know either.
It's basically like having a daughter that looks exactly like her mother.
You can try as much as you want to make her the same woman her mother was, but she never will be.
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Old 2011-08-04, 11:57   Link #23586
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Maybe, but Meta-Battler is also his own character and he's part of a storyline.
Unfortunately. I never cared much for all the meta-drama.
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Old 2011-08-04, 12:03   Link #23587
Renall
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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
It's basically like having a daughter that looks exactly like her mother.
You can try as much as you want to make her the same woman her mother was, but she never will be.
Except then she is... somehow. Which is where the daughter metaphor Virgilia suggested (which otherwise was working fine up to that point) falls apart. And then she isn't. And then she is again.

It's basically the Ship of Beatrice.
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Old 2011-08-04, 12:03   Link #23588
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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
It's basically like having a daughter that looks exactly like her mother.
You can try as much as you want to make her the same woman her mother was, but she never will be.
I think that's too extreme of an example.

Maybe it's more along the lines of me owning a shirt that is very important to me, having the shirt burned, then expertly crafting another to the fullest of details.


If the original shirt was given to me by something really important, while the crafted shirt has my heart and soul in it, it's just not the same.
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Old 2011-08-04, 12:20   Link #23589
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Except then she is... somehow. Which is where the daughter metaphor Virgilia suggested (which otherwise was working fine up to that point) falls apart. And then she isn't. And then she is again.

It's basically the Ship of Beatrice.
Well, if you're alluding to the finale of EP6, she's not really the same Beatrice again. She simply learned what it meant "to be Beatrice".
Yes okay, they marry and so the daughter metaphor may appear a little off...but it's not like incest is that much of a taboo in Umineko. Even though the father/daughter stuff still creeps me out... Cousins? Who cares.

In the end it's not like anybody in the metaworld is really related to anybody...

For me I solved this dilemma along these lines:

Beatrice (EP1-5) The Beatrice that Tôya found transmitted in Yasu's letters -> an evil witch who likes to torture people for fun, but really turns out to be tortured herself

Beatrice (EP5 finale) The memory of Yasu as Beatrice who can't do anything but give Battler peace

Beatrice (EP6) The Beatrice that Tôya created after coming to terms with the fact that there's no way to get the old one back

Clair A vessel for the true thoughts of Yasu

Beatrice (EP8) The Beatrice in Tôya's heart that he grew to accept as important.

And basically there are even more, like Maria's Beatrice, Kinzô's Beatrice, Kumasawa's Beatrice...and basically I've come to think that Eva-Beatrice could as well be Eva's idea of Beatrice.
You could even say that the only Beatrice that is actually close to Yasu is Clair...because Beatrice in EP1-4 may also only exist because Tôya (or probably the entirety of the people of the future) imagined her like that.
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Old 2011-08-04, 14:09   Link #23590
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Well, it's not like he couldn't expect there to be enough mystery buffs who would read it. Mystery (with there being the 新本格 movement and all) is one of the biggest literary genres in Japan. Classical Mystery novels are often enough in the book charts and he at least mentioned people like Higashino Keigo, who is read by almost anybody in Japan, being an inspiration. And there were at least a few people who likened it to Anti Mystery novels like 虚無への供物 like it was said in the interview...
Yea, Mystery is popular in Japan, but not with otaku dipshits who eat up doujin anime moe moe bullshit, uuu uuu.

Guess what Umineko's demographic is.

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Yeah, it's bullshit, just like the fact that Yasu was really planning to kill everyone... oh wait. Get down from your pedestal and stop acting like you posses all the answers to Umineko.
You're right, Yasu planning to kill everyone is bullshit. So she didn't.

I don't even give a shit what Ryukishi thinks anymore. He didn't say it in the text so it doesn't count. I usually don't invoke Death of the Author and I think it's bullshit, but in this case I think it's entirely justified because Ryukishi is a fucking dipshit. I'm sorry, but holy crap, I came THIS close to just discarding my friendship with him over this idiocy.

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Have we been reading the same thing? The story in the meta-world has a storyline and a logic. I know that now with Tohya introduction and whatever people act like OMG EVERYTHING IS METAPHORICAL but ever since ep 1 the Meta-World has its own rules, Featherine even explains some of them.
You're right, there's a storyline and logic, but those devices exist to feed us the message Ryukishi/Toya/whoever wants us to receive. They engage the reader into the message but must not obstruct it, so they will change, vanish, alter, etc. as is necessary. It's not important beyond a metaphorical context.

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Maybe, but Meta-Battler is also his own character and he's part of a storyline.
See above. He serves as the voice of reader skepticism. When he can't fulfill that role he LITERALLY DIES (and only comes back when his character is redefined).

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Uh, i'm sorry, but what? Battler even says he will continue to write tales of her inside the catbox, forever and ever.
The same goes for every other character. Everyone Battler knew and loved except for Ange is fucking dead and blown up into atomic bits.

Also EP6's ending says yea, she's kinda dead bro.

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Too bad the characters in Dungeons and Dragons don't show near their players and talk to them like many characters like Evatrice did. There is even an Ange walking around as a result of their games. (ep IV-VI Ange)
Yea, metaphors aren't 100% analogous to each other holy shit no way that totally completely invalidates it.

Except no it doesn't. Metaphors are things you can compare that have the same core attributes but are otherwise radically different for the purposes of explaining something obscure, which my metaphor does succinctly, and the things you mentioned are 100% irrelevant to the issue of Erika's douchebaggery. So....lol?

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Well, actually, while his dialogue's tone confuses me(I'm assuming it's nothing with malice though), his posts usually help me to understand things better at times. I don't think it has anything to do with arrogance, I would much rather hear his opinion on many of these matters.
Yea, I'm not mad or think people on here are stupid or anything. It's mostly anger at Ryukishi bleeding into my tone of voice. I apologize for it.

No one has the answers to Umineko, but damn if I'm not one of the closest besides Ryukishi himself (if not, dare I say, more, since he's a fucking idiot).

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Except then she is... somehow. Which is where the daughter metaphor Virgilia suggested (which otherwise was working fine up to that point) falls apart. And then she isn't. And then she is again.
Actually it was Battler-as-Imaginary-Beato who came up with that metaphor, in order to help BATTLER cope. So I think it's inaccuracy can b excused in this case because it's a coping mechanism.

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And basically there are even more, like Maria's Beatrice, Kinzô's Beatrice, Kumasawa's Beatrice...and basically I've come to think that Eva-Beatrice could as well be Eva's idea of Beatrice.
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Old 2011-08-04, 15:13   Link #23591
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Yea, Mystery is popular in Japan, but not with otaku dipshits who eat up doujin anime moe moe bullshit, uuu uuu.

Guess what Umineko's demographic is.
Well, considering what we are discussing here, we'd all fall into your definition of "otaku dipshits" as well. The fact that it's discussed alone proofs that there are mystery fans who actually read Umineko.
Yeah, it's not a majority, but that's the root of the problem anyway, that he started to care to much for what the majority thought.

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I don't even give a shit what Ryukishi thinks anymore. He didn't say it in the text so it doesn't count. I usually don't invoke Death of the Author and I think it's bullshit, but in this case I think it's entirely justified because Ryukishi is a fucking dipshit. I'm sorry, but holy crap, I came THIS close to just discarding my friendship with him over this idiocy.
[...]

Yea, I'm not mad or think people on here are stupid or anything. It's mostly anger at Ryukishi bleeding into my tone of voice. I apologize for it.

No one has the answers to Umineko, but damn if I'm not one of the closest besides Ryukishi himself (if not, dare I say, more, since he's a fucking idiot).
Duuude...if you're that annoyed with Umineko or your best mate Ryű, just drop it. Write him a hate mail, burn your copies of Umineko, kill a small animal and send it to him per mail (please...don't)...
You're like those stuck up hipster students, who sit in a seminar and moan about how stupid all those books are, because they're so stupid and the author is an ass and they should all just go and die, because your own perception of what is good and bad literature is worth so much more...
Damn, I mean come on, what good does it do always being in such a foul mood. It's nice if you're confident about your solution...but man, it's not like you own the universe because you do...

Sorry for the rant, but please...we could have a pretty normal discussion without stuff like this pestering the air...
Can't you just ask a mod for a "We hate Ryűkishi" thread or something similar?!
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Old 2011-08-04, 15:46   Link #23592
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Well, considering what we are discussing here, we'd all fall into your definition of "otaku dipshits" as well. The fact that it's discussed alone proofs that there are mystery fans who actually read Umineko.
Yeah, it's not a majority, but that's the root of the problem anyway, that he started to care to much for what the majority thought.
I'm speaking in the context of the fanbase that gets to speak and collaborate with Ryukishi; the people whose feedback he's actually receiving when he writes responses in his Game.

By and large, the same people who eat up moemoe crap and are reading Umineko because he's the Higurashi guy.

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Duuude...if you're that annoyed with Umineko or your best mate Ryű, just drop it. Write him a hate mail, burn your copies of Umineko, kill a small animal and send it to him per mail (please...don't)...
You're like those stuck up hipster students, who sit in a seminar and moan about how stupid all those books are, because they're so stupid and the author is an ass and they should all just go and die, because your own perception of what is good and bad literature is worth so much more...
Damn, I mean come on, what good does it do always being in such a foul mood. It's nice if you're confident about your solution...but man, it's not like you own the universe because you do...
How about you listen to your own advice and don't presume things about me? My grievances are for the most part intensely personal, and I've really only scratched the surface of them to give people a fair enough assessment of why I'm mad. I still love Umineko as a work of fiction, but I acknowledge it's flaws pretty fairly. It's not like I'm dismissing the whole thing as shit.

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Can't you just ask a mod for a "We hate Ryűkishi" thread or something similar?!
I don't hate Ryukishi at all; which ties into my "You have no idea why I'm even mad, don't get a condescending attitude with me" point.
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Old 2011-08-04, 16:29   Link #23593
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You're right, Yasu planning to kill everyone is bullshit. So she didn't.

I don't even give a shit what Ryukishi thinks anymore. He didn't say it in the text so it doesn't count. I usually don't invoke Death of the Author and I think it's bullshit, but in this case I think it's entirely justified because Ryukishi is a fucking dipshit. I'm sorry, but holy crap, I came THIS close to just discarding my friendship with him over this idiocy.

You may start to write your own Umineko then. I don't know, make a livejournal account and write a fanfiction, whatever.

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You're right, there's a storyline and logic, but those devices exist to feed us the message Ryukishi/Toya/whoever wants us to receive. They engage the reader into the message but must not obstruct it, so they will change, vanish, alter, etc. as is necessary. It's not important beyond a metaphorical context.



See above. He serves as the voice of reader skepticism. When he can't fulfill that role he LITERALLY DIES (and only comes back when his character is redefined).



The same goes for every other character. Everyone Battler knew and loved except for Ange is fucking dead and blown up into atomic bits.

Also EP6's ending says yea, she's kinda dead bro.



Yea, metaphors aren't 100% analogous to each other holy shit no way that totally completely invalidates it.

Except no it doesn't. Metaphors are things you can compare that have the same core attributes but are otherwise radically different for the purposes of explaining something obscure, which my metaphor does succinctly, and the things you mentioned are 100% irrelevant to the issue of Erika's douchebaggery. So....lol?
I think you are using the whole Tohya thing a bit to much. We didn't know about him until ep VIII. Yes, he's another layer that add complexity to the story and whatnot, but it doesn't mean you are suppose to read EVERYTHING as a metaphor he wrote. Try to remove him from the story and see what you get.

Beside, the way Umineko was written, it makes ambiguous whatever all we saw is fiction or the meta world actually exist (there is even a recent interview where R07 talks about Umineko connection with Higurashi and Featherine-Hanyuu connection)
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No one has the answers to Umineko, but damn if I'm not one of the closest besides Ryukishi himself (if not, dare I say, more, since he's a fucking idiot).
I'm sorry, but what? That's a bit pretentious , especially because you still insist Yasu had a fake murder mystery in mind despite the fact R07 himself confirmed she really was going to kill people.
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Old 2011-08-04, 16:46   Link #23594
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You may start to write your own Umineko then. I don't know, make a livejournal account and write a fanfiction, whatever.
You're not getting my point. I don't want to write my own Umineko, I want Ryukishi to be able to write his own competently. I've got my own shit to write.

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I think you are using the whole Tohya thing a bit to much. We didn't know about him until ep VIII. Yes, he's another layer that add complexity to the story and whatnot, but it doesn't mean you are suppose to read EVERYTHING as a metaphor he wrote. Try to remove him from the story and see what you get.
I already did. It causes problems. Take out a central part of the narrative and you get questions you can't solve without baseless conjecture.

You're acting as if we can't use information from EP3 to solve EP1. Get over yourself.

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Beside, the way Umineko was written, it makes ambiguous whatever all we saw is fiction or the meta world actually exist (there is even a recent interview where R07 talks about Umineko connection with Higurashi and Featherine-Hanyuu connection)
And? Just because everything is a metaphor for something Toya is trying to express doesn't mean none of it exists.

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I'm sorry, but what? That's a bit pretentious , especially because you still insist Yasu had a fake murder mystery in mind despite the fact R07 himself confirmed she really was going to kill people.
Excuse me if Ryukishi's Word of God doesn't own up to what he actually wrote and how he characterized his characters.
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Old 2011-08-04, 16:56   Link #23595
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
You're not getting my point. I don't want to write my own Umineko, I want Ryukishi to be able to write his own competently. I've got my own shit to write.
This still sounds quite stuck up if you ask me. Of course there are parts of Umineko that are quite awkward in a literary context, but you're talking as if this is the most incoherent dribble ever released...which it actually isn't. I read some high ranking mystery novels which were much worse...but of course I also read some which were better.

And I would actually like to read something you've written. Is that possible?
I assure you it's not in order to take revenge or anything that silly...I'd just like to know what your literary position is.
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Old 2011-08-04, 17:01   Link #23596
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This still sounds quite stuck up if you ask me. Of course there are parts of Umineko that are quite awkward in a literary context, but you're talking as if this is the most incoherent dribble ever released...which it actually isn't.
That's not what I'm saying, and it's not what I'm trying to say. If you're going to Strawman my intentions and words, then don't even bother responding to them. YOU'Re the one being stuck up and condescending in this case. I'm merely giving my opinions on what Ryukishi wrote, and if you don't like that, that's too fucking bad for you.

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And I would actually like to read something you've written. Is that possible?
Well, I'm not in the mood, now. :P
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Old 2011-08-04, 17:08   Link #23597
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Just a thought but has anyone noticed that in order for Eva to exist in 1998, whatever murder she is in has to be fake. Such as EP1TL2, she faked her death which ruined the illusion of a closed room. Then there's EP2TL1, where all the adults had to fake their deaths (or Eva's the culprit of that murder). And EP4TL1 was probably fake as well. Makes sense, right?
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Old 2011-08-04, 17:12   Link #23598
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I see Nasuverse fans making legitimate complaints like Aura all the time, but that never meant they hated all of Nasu's works.

I think a major part of respect in something, is having the ability to talk shit about something(legitimately, or in a joking way if it's not intended to be serious) without the parties in question being mad.If Ryu never hears legitimate complaints like this, his works would never change.


If I was a writer(which I'd rather be a theatregoer), I would definitely want my fanbase to tell me every little detail I got wrong, otherwise all my future books could possibly contain the same blunders.


I didn't read too far into their theories because they contained spoilers, but I think Eva dying had to do with Battler learning that Eva survived, so he added that in in the third tale, then learned not to be so quick to judge later.
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Old 2011-08-04, 17:27   Link #23599
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Just a thought but has anyone noticed that in order for Eva to exist in 1998, whatever murder she is in has to be fake. Such as EP1TL2, she faked her death which ruined the illusion of a closed room. Then there's EP2TL1, where all the adults had to fake their deaths (or Eva's the culprit of that murder). And EP4TL1 was probably fake as well. Makes sense, right?
Or those are false worlds. The Games are universes where "the police will never arrive, and October 6th will never come to pass".
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Old 2011-08-04, 17:32   Link #23600
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Or those are false worlds. The Games are universes where "the police will never arrive, and October 6th will never come to pass".
I know. I'm speaking within the Game's sake.
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