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Old 2011-08-05, 14:23   Link #23621
Renall
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Flipping the switch of a bomb is still a crime, bro.
Not if everyone else already left on their top secret seaplane to Hawaii.
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Old 2011-08-05, 14:35   Link #23622
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Not if everyone else already left on their top secret seaplane to Hawaii.
...Massive destruction of property
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Old 2011-08-05, 14:40   Link #23623
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EP7 has no Gamemaster? Lol whatever dude, it pretty clearly did regardless of what Bern said. Even if it didn't have a Gamemaster, that'd only be more reason to trust Clair's confession.
So, then who was the Gamemaster of EP7? I think we can trust Bern in that department. While she was a pretty conniving bitch most of the time, she never actually lied about anything. Twisting the truth, yes, but not actually lying.
And I wouldn't say I don't trust Clair's confession. I fully trust the fact that this was actually how Yasu experienced the events on Rokkenjima.

I found it especially interesting how the depiction of the witch Beatrice in the Tea Party was so absolutely different from how we experienced her in the games when Tya imagined her.

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But she IS Beatrice. She's a martyr in that she's sullying what's most important to her in order to protect someone else. [...] It's the inner aspect of her that can give her a future.
(a) That would require Genius-Yasu, wouldn't it? Because it would imply that she knew about the fact that somebody was going to use her plan to kill everybody on the island. Unless that person was one of the cousins I'd think that it is highly improbable for her to know and the only 2 people among them, close enough to Ange to drive her suicidal after knowing they are murderers, would be Maria or Battler.
(b) That is not how I read her relation to Beatrice at all. While she started out as this role-model figure, she developed into something like a last escape pretty quickly. And in the way she depicted her in EP2 (and also the hints given in EP1) I'd say she's actually trying to get rid of Beatrice and is actually blaming that part of herself for wanting to do something like that.

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And that's not even touching the fact that she seems to make Shannon and Kanon the culprit in all her fucking Games, so that if you deconstruct Beatrice you still throw an arrow in her heart.
Actually I don't see her doing that at all. She is secretly confessing to those who know her (which is only Battler) that she did it, but she is blaming all of that on the witch because she doesn't want to be responsible for what she is about to do.
She actually antagonized Beatrice mostly through Shannon and Kanon, as to make clear that those two would do anything to fight against the witch...even though they might be too weak and give in in the end (->EP2 Kanon).
At least Shannon dies in a way that it seems impossible for her to be the culprit both times.
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Old 2011-08-05, 16:53   Link #23624
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So, then who was the Gamemaster of EP7? I think we can trust Bern in that department. While she was a pretty conniving bitch most of the time, she never actually lied about anything. Twisting the truth, yes, but not actually lying.
And I wouldn't say I don't trust Clair's confession. I fully trust the fact that this was actually how Yasu experienced the events on Rokkenjima.
Bernkastel controlled everything during the events of EP7. The only time she claims otherwise is during the events of the Tea Party, which are entirely different (And I still think she was lying since she also claimed that it was the truth of what happened and THAT'S not true either); Regardless, her main complaint is that she never did any "real" Gamemastering; which is fair since EP7 was nothing like anything that came before it. Will didn't even have an opponent.

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I found it especially interesting how the depiction of the witch Beatrice in the Tea Party was so absolutely different from how we experienced her in the games when Tya imagined her.
You must be joking. You don't see the difference between the Beatrice shown in games 1-4 and the Beatrice shown in EP7's Tea Party? Seriously?

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(a) That would require Genius-Yasu, wouldn't it? Because it would imply that she knew about the fact that somebody was going to use her plan to kill everybody on the island. Unless that person was one of the cousins I'd think that it is highly improbable for her to know and the only 2 people among them, close enough to Ange to drive her suicidal after knowing they are murderers, would be Maria or Battler.
The Yasu-Martyr theory is reliant on the presumption that Yasu knows someone is planning something wicked but is unable (or thinks she is unable) to do anything about it.

A common and simple example is that George plans to kill the whole family to be with her and is pressuring Shannon to cooperate, and if she were to stop him everything would come out into the open and then she'd have nothing and no one.

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(b) That is not how I read her relation to Beatrice at all. While she started out as this role-model figure, she developed into something like a last escape pretty quickly. And in the way she depicted her in EP2 (and also the hints given in EP1) I'd say she's actually trying to get rid of Beatrice and is actually blaming that part of herself for wanting to do something like that.
Of course she'd try and get rid of Beatrice if she's offering it up as a lamb on the cross.

Though "Beatrice being the part of herself that wants to do X that she doesn't want to do" leans towards Hollywood MPD shenanigans. Let's not go there.

The point is Beatrice was an effigy of her hopes and dreams, to be fulfilled or sacrificed. Beatrice is a personification of her heart in a very heavy sense.

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Actually I don't see her doing that at all. She is secretly confessing to those who know her (which is only Battler) that she did it, but she is blaming all of that on the witch because she doesn't want to be responsible for what she is about to do.
She actually antagonized Beatrice mostly through Shannon and Kanon, as to make clear that those two would do anything to fight against the witch...even though they might be too weak and give in in the end (->EP2 Kanon).
At least Shannon dies in a way that it seems impossible for her to be the culprit both times.
Pfft. I suppose that's one interpretation, but if she doesn't want to do something, she doesn't have to do it. Nothing is pressuring her to commit the murders but herself, if anything, and "lol the bitch is crazy" is just insulting to the entire narrative. Yasu is emotionally unstable, but she still has a reasonable faculty of mind.

Beatrice is antagonized by Shannon and Kanon only when Beatrice is being portrayed as an 100% evil supernatural bitch who rode like a badass out of hell. Which isn't true. Once the cat's out of the bag they're nothing but respectful and friendly to her. Fancy that.
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Old 2011-08-05, 18:05   Link #23625
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EP7 has no Gamemaster? Lol whatever dude, it pretty clearly did regardless of what Bern said. Even if it didn't have a Gamemaster, that'd only be more reason to trust Clair's confession.
It doesn't need to have a Gamemaster. It has a Reader, which is much harder to deal with because you have to watch out for their mistakes and bad assumptions. Bern even says in EP8 that there are countless ways for a reader to give false information without telling outright lies.
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Old 2011-08-05, 18:23   Link #23626
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Bernkastel controlled everything during the events of EP7. The only time she claims otherwise is during the events of the Tea Party, which are entirely different (And I still think she was lying since she also claimed that it was the truth of what happened and THAT'S not true either); Regardless, her main complaint is that she never did any "real" Gamemastering; which is fair since EP7 was nothing like anything that came before it. Will didn't even have an opponent.
Well basically she only presented the pieces and let Will (the reasonable and experienced mystery reader) play with it. It was her idea that he should come to the gruesome conclusion himself because that's what she wants everybody to believe...it's the guts that most of the readers wanted to rip out of the story.
She never lied, she even said in EP7 about her truth that Ange didn't even let her finish that sentence and let it be...but the only thing she corrected in EP8 was that the truth doesn't limit itself to that which she saw in EP7. For me that implied very much that we simply saw a limited perspective of the events, but it's not THE truth. It's like saying "The Nazis were murderers"...of course it's true, but it's only a facette of THE truth.

Quote:
You must be joking. You don't see the difference between the Beatrice shown in games 1-4 and the Beatrice shown in EP7's Tea Party? Seriously
Please read my sentence again...I basically said that Tya's image of Beatrice (EP1-4/5) and the Beatrice that was dragged out of Yasu's thoughts (EP7) were totally contrastive.

Quote:
The Yasu-Martyr theory is reliant on the presumption that Yasu knows someone is planning something wicked but is unable (or thinks she is unable) to do anything about it.
I still think that theory is kind of weak and doesn't really explain why she is covering for that person when in fact all she wants is to be with one of the people who care for her. If she actually wanted to stop a tragedy she could have just thrown the Winchesters into the ocean or something like that.
It also doesn't really explain Eva-survival over the survival of other people...because why should she tell Eva of all people?
George uber-culprit could explain that, but it would on the other hand not explain why she would help him if she was actually still drawn to Battler.

I think many things don't really add up if she was actually covering for somebody on the island from the start.

Quote:
Though "Beatrice being the part of herself that wants to do X that she doesn't want to do" leans towards Hollywood MPD shenanigans. Let's not go there.
I don't really know why you are so hellbent on MPD. Why does it have to be MPD in order to be torn between two radically different positions. She is just so pained and disturbed that she doesn't know which path is the best, to let it all go to hell, to go woth George whom she loves now, to go with Jessica who is in love with her, to go to Battler who maybe never love her. To make it all stop by pushing a button is the easiest out of those...especially if you carry some secrets that may ruin those futures anyway. "Hey George/Jessica/Battler, I'm your aunt who was created in an incestuous affair between your grandpa and his lover's daughter...and my genitals were mutilated when your aunt/mom threw me off a cliff as a baby..." is not really something that promises a very endearing future.
I would probably be leaning towards flicking the switch as well...

You say it's "lol the bitch's crazy"...I find it rather easy to understand such a notion. Having a fault that might make you hated by everybody you care about, not having a future, not being able to have children...she is basically bereaved of any probable chances. The only small glimpse is actually George...well and Jessica in a way.

Actually the more I think about the more it reminds me of two Yokomizo Seishi stories.

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The point is Beatrice was an effigy of her hopes and dreams, to be fulfilled or sacrificed. Beatrice is a personification of her heart in a very heavy sense.
But I wouldn't limit her heart to Beatrice. Her heart are Shannon and Kanon just as much...just that they are different pathes she could choose.

--------------------------

By the way, when I was thinking about Jessica/Kanon one interesting thing popped up in my mind. Basically Yasu is gripping for any straw that she finds in terms of obtaining love...and that brings me to a point why Kanon is important.
Basically what we were told is that not Kanon fell in love with Jessica, actually Jessica approached Kanon about it. It was the same with Shannon and George, but Kanon was refusing it quite actively.
Thinking along that path you could argue that while Yasu was ready for George's love (because she always lived as a woman) she wasn't ready for Jessica's. Still it remains a possible way towards happiness, as in the end it doesn't really matter which sex she ends up with (being broken down there and all)...so she is at least considering it.
This would also explain why Kanon is always destined to loose the duel of love.

And before you say it AT, yes, it is conjecture, of course. But it's not baseless conjecture as we learned throughout the stories that it was the cousins who approached Shannon and Kanon, not the other way around. And it's not like it isn't a staple in mystery fiction (at least Japanese ones)...
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Old 2011-08-05, 18:55   Link #23627
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No, I mean, I want him to write competently so that his narrative isn't a mess in need of an editor.

Which it IS, REGARDLESS of what my theory is.
Well, i ain't going to argue about this, Umineko is a fucking mess. But...


Quote:
Also, he kind of fucked up the aesop of his story and is apparently insinuating we need to forgive a serial killer because of her emo relationship problems when the actual text gives the impression that Yasu is a martyr for someone else's crimes.
It all comes back to this. You just can't accept that she really was going to kill people.

We already discussed this in ep VII thread over and over. Yes, she was going to kill people if the roulette said so. Is it crazy? Yes. But you need to place things into a fucking CONTEXT.

It's not like Yasu eats babies at night. Although our opinions diverge on some things, haguruma explained in the post above why she's so fucked up and conflicted. (but then again, we already discusses this before)

Also, in the end she didn't even kill people. Of course, even if she was PLANNING to follow the roulette she didn't carry out the murders and ended up covering for the craaaazy Ushiromiya.
Then she became a witch and meet Meta-Battler... and the rest is history. Is it to hard to understand why is she so pitiable?

Of course if everything is a story Tohya wrote, Meta-Beatrice isn't even a proper character, Shkanontrice died like a bitch and amnesia Battler ended up writing her dialogs.

Ugh...


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Well, given that it's a work of fiction, humans are incapable of objective observation, and Yasu was designed to be a subjective mirror, fucking of course I can't. Derp dee derp.

But that doesn't mean I'm impressing my life onto Yasu. I'm doing the opposite, if anything. The points I made remain valid, however, and countless people who don't self-identify with Yasu reached the same conclusions I did: She's too meek, timid, self-sacrificing, self-punishing, and undecisive to plan a mass murder with cold, meticulous efficiency as she must in order for the incident to go off as it must.

This is a girl who doesn't have the resolve to fucking make a phonecall. How the hell is she going to kill six people right off the bat, then put on her stupid meido outfit and put on a perfect acting job of innocence infront of everyone else?
Do you have a master in psychology? But even if you do, who cares?

Quoting R07 ""the story of how one girl, through love and madness, was able to imagine an incident on this scale." That's all.



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But then there's the genuinely possible likelihood that Ryukishi thinks Yasu has Multiple Personality Disorder, which isn't consistent with his story OR how the condition actually works, so he kind of cornered himself hardcore.
Well yes, magical DID is actually kinda shitty, but hopefully he was justing being cryptic... Clair in ep VII definitely doesn't act as a person with DID, she's fully conscious of her world and roles. The only thing that suggested DID was the love transfer. (which by the way, always puzzled me as a plot device to have Beato fall in love with Battler)

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Could you say in which book that was or where the interview was released?
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Old 2011-08-05, 19:52   Link #23628
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Well, i ain't going to argue about this, Umineko is a fucking mess. But...
I think nobody's arguing about that point...which is something I don't know if AT knows that or not.
Rykishi is in desperate need of a competent editor, but most authors are. Ever heard of Kygoku Natsuhiko (he wrote Mry no Hako which was made into a film and an anime)? I'm not even astonished anymore when his twitter says that he's happy how he managed to write something with less than a 1000 pages. His stories are great, but even his editor is powerless against how much side-information he crams into his stories.
Umineko could have at least been made a little better...but who knows, maybe it wasn't even his idea to include all those things I don't like...I don't know his team.

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Of course if everything is a story Tohya wrote, Meta-Beatrice isn't even a proper character, Shkanontrice died like a bitch and amnesia Battler ended up writing her dialogs.
Yeah, but only if everything is just a story by him. I came to the conclusion that the meta-world exists, but it is almost completely seperate from our plane and mainly formed by our emotions. Beatrice might be a figment of Tya's imagination or even just Battler within Tya...but I think Meta-Beatrice is still a character on the meta-plane.
But everybody can see that as he or she wants...it's the way it was imagined anyway....

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The only thing that suggested DID was the love transfer. (which by the way, always puzzled me as a plot device to have Beato fall in love with Battler)
I don't think even that needs MPD or DID or however you wanna call it.
Yasu merely pushed her love for Battler into her subconscious, which is where Beatrice is. She merely said, if there should actually be something like a miracle I might come back to you, but for now I have to let it go and become happy on another path.
That's her problem, she left too many pathes open and this is why Battler's return for her was so painful. If she really had created another being who loved Battler it wouldn't even have bothered Shannon...but it obviously did, because she knew that her love was on the verge of resurfacing from the moment she knew about his return.
This is also why even the Beatrice who holds Battler's love must vanish after the trial of love...and why she was drawn into it in the first place.

Thank you...I know that from somewhere, I just wasn't sure if it was that or something more. But the part about Bern is actually how I perceived her from the moment I read Saikoroshi and she appeared for the first time in Umineko.
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Old 2011-08-05, 20:25   Link #23629
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It doesn't need to have a Gamemaster. It has a Reader, which is much harder to deal with because you have to watch out for their mistakes and bad assumptions. Bern even says in EP8 that there are countless ways for a reader to give false information without telling outright lies.
So what do we call Maria being 'moved' by Bernkastel after Will asked about Mariage Sorciere, and he comments that she wants him to keep on topic?

That's definitely not reading, since it's an altering of the 'text', not an interpretation. What else do we call it but some form of Gamemastering?

Quote:
Well basically she only presented the pieces and let Will (the reasonable and experienced mystery reader) play with it. It was her idea that he should come to the gruesome conclusion himself because that's what she wants everybody to believe...it's the guts that most of the readers wanted to rip out of the story.
She never lied, she even said in EP7 about her truth that Ange didn't even let her finish that sentence and let it be...but the only thing she corrected in EP8 was that the truth doesn't limit itself to that which she saw in EP7. For me that implied very much that we simply saw a limited perspective of the events, but it's not THE truth. It's like saying "The Nazis were murderers"...of course it's true, but it's only a facette of THE truth.
My interpretation is that Bernkastel simply ran a show (regardless of whether or not it was true), and since there was no interaction and thus no game, there was no "Gamemaster." She was only showing a movie.

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Please read my sentence again...I basically said that Tya's image of Beatrice (EP1-4/5) and the Beatrice that was dragged out of Yasu's thoughts (EP7) were totally contrastive.
"The Beatrice of EP7's Tea Party" would be the Beatrice that the adults met in the show Bernkastel showed Ange and Lion.

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I still think that theory is kind of weak and doesn't really explain why she is covering for that person when in fact all she wants is to be with one of the people who care for her. If she actually wanted to stop a tragedy she could have just thrown the Winchesters into the ocean or something like that.
It also doesn't really explain Eva-survival over the survival of other people...because why should she tell Eva of all people?
George uber-culprit could explain that, but it would on the other hand not explain why she would help him if she was actually still drawn to Battler.

I think many things don't really add up if she was actually covering for somebody on the island from the start.
The theory has flaws I admit, but it fits better, in my honest opinion. Culprit X could've pressured her with "If you do something to stop me, I'll kill Battler with my own bare hands" or something, I don't know.

The main idea is that regardless of what she actually could have done, Yasu is convinced that she can't do anything and should leave it up to fate; which is consistent with her character.

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I don't really know why you are so hellbent on MPD. Why does it have to be MPD in order to be torn between two radically different positions. She is just so pained and disturbed that she doesn't know which path is the best, to let it all go to hell, to go woth George whom she loves now, to go with Jessica who is in love with her, to go to Battler who maybe never love her. To make it all stop by pushing a button is the easiest out of those...especially if you carry some secrets that may ruin those futures anyway. "Hey George/Jessica/Battler, I'm your aunt who was created in an incestuous affair between your grandpa and his lover's daughter...and my genitals were mutilated when your aunt/mom threw me off a cliff as a baby..." is not really something that promises a very endearing future.
I would probably be leaning towards flicking the switch as well...
That's fine. However, phrasing things in the form of different aspects of her self autonomously working against herself is problematic. Yasu is indecisive, not 100% dedicated to three different goals, if that makes sense.

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But I wouldn't limit her heart to Beatrice. Her heart are Shannon and Kanon just as much...just that they are different pathes she could choose.
You're right. I didn't phrase that satisfactorily. What I should say is that it's more like Beatrice is the closest to Yasu's own self-image. Of the three, it's the one "most close to home" (possibly because it's the one that holds her most honest romantic feelings).

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It all comes back to this. You just can't accept that she really was going to kill people.

We already discussed this in ep VII thread over and over. Yes, she was going to kill people if the roulette said so. Is it crazy? Yes. But you need to place things into a fucking CONTEXT.

It's not like Yasu eats babies at night. Although our opinions diverge on some things, haguruma explained in the post above why she's so fucked up and conflicted. (but then again, we already discusses this before)

Also, in the end she didn't even kill people. Of course, even if she was PLANNING to follow the roulette she didn't carry out the murders and ended up covering for the craaaazy Ushiromiya.
Then she became a witch and meet Meta-Battler... and the rest is history. Is it to hard to understand why is she so pitiable?

Of course if everything is a story Tohya wrote, Meta-Beatrice isn't even a proper character, Shkanontrice died like a bitch and amnesia Battler ended up writing her dialogs.
You're right, we need to place things in context.

A context that includes that this person is too cowardly, unsure of herself, and indecisive to make a phonecall, write a letter, or even speak her mind. How is she going to kill eighteen fucking people, wipe the blood off, and walk back into a room with a smile on her face as she feigns innocence?

The problem is no one can provide an answer to this, and Ryukishi didn't even fucking bother. So one way or another we have a goddamn plothole. The Martyr theory atleast keeps in mind every passage of the text instead of ignoring parts of it.

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Do you have a master in psychology? But even if you do, who cares?

Quoting R07 ""the story of how one girl, through love and madness, was able to imagine an incident on this scale." That's all.
Funny you should say that, I do have a masters in psychology. But that's kind of irrelevant because even a high school student should be able to see that Ryukishi is full of shit.

The funny thing is that quote does nothing to support your position anymore than it does mine. Of course Yasu "IMAGINED" this huge incident! She wrote her message bottles as a confession, warning, and coverup for the horrible crime that George commited and she felt guilty for not being able to stop. loliwin.

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Well yes, magical DID is actually kinda shitty, but hopefully he was justing being cryptic... Clair in ep VII definitely doesn't act as a person with DID, she's fully conscious of her world and roles. The only thing that suggested DID was the love transfer. (which by the way, always puzzled me as a plot device to have Beato fall in love with Battler)
The Love Transfer was basically a restructuring of personas. She's roleplaying the characters, so she's rewriting the scripts. Internally, nothing is changing.

But otherwise, I agree. Yasu is not written as if she has any sort of DID, but Ryukishi seems to insinuate that he thinks she does, which means he's a fucking shitty writer not just because he's using the condition wrong but because his Word of God doesn't match his fiction.

That would be like if JK Rowling's "Dumbledore is Gay" quote ran counter to a scene in Harry Potter where Dumbledore was having a wild sex-and-cocaine party with seven big-breasted witch hookers.

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I think nobody's arguing about that point...which is something I don't know if AT knows that or not.
I know it; doesn't mean I like that people are making excuses for Ryukishi or are trying to justify me as a butthurt snob who should go write his own Umineko.
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Old 2011-08-05, 20:35   Link #23630
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
So what do we call Maria being 'moved' by Bernkastel after Will asked about Mariage Sorciere, and he comments that she wants him to keep on topic?

That's definitely not reading, since it's an altering of the 'text', not an interpretation. What else do we call it but some form of Gamemastering?
Sorry, I think we're talking about different parts of EP7... The only part that Bern actually said had no Gamemaster was the Tea Party, which is almost certainly a fragment being read by Eva. As for the main part, Bern felt that it wasn't a proper game-mastering job (which it really wasn't by the standards of a Rokkenjima game board, since it didn't have an epitaph-inspired serial murder and Beatrice was dead), but I wouldn't argue that she was for all intents and purposes the Gamemaster.
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Old 2011-08-05, 20:52   Link #23631
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If we define "Gamemaster" as "one who writes the story", then I'm sure the main part of the episode counts, for what one could call EP7 a 'story'. The Tea Party is really the only ambiguous part.
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Old 2011-08-05, 22:06   Link #23632
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The theory has flaws I admit, but it fits better, in my honest opinion. Culprit X could've pressured her with "If you do something to stop me, I'll kill Battler with my own bare hands" or something, I don't know.

The main idea is that regardless of what she actually could have done, Yasu is convinced that she can't do anything and should leave it up to fate; which is consistent with her character.
Of course it could possibly work, though it would leave the question why she didn't hide the actuall culprit X within her stories. Of course you could say she loved George enough to cover him from the world's blame. But then again, why would she leave him alive in her EP1 plan until the very end?
While I also see the potential in George to murder (which is probably the reason why he was killed both in EP3 and 4) based on his development during the whole series as an ass who would sacrifice his whole family for his own desires, I don't think Yasu would have covered for that, especially if she was able to kill him for that.

In that case I'd rather go for a Battler culprit approach, because that would be something that she might have anticipated and covered for. Especially because his assured survival generates a need for a cover-up.

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That's fine. However, phrasing things in the form of different aspects of her self autonomously working against herself is problematic. Yasu is indecisive, not 100% dedicated to three different goals, if that makes sense.
I wouldn't call it 100% for each goal, I'd rather say it was probably something like 40% Beatrice (getting love from Battler or flicking the switch), 40% Shannon (being with George and being sure of it) and probably 20% Kanon (going for the secure route with Jessica). I know how that can appear as working for different goals at the same time...but it's actually more like being torn between which goal is actually worth reaching, isn't it?
I think it's no accident that in each Episode Kanon and Shannon have to die in the course of the story and why Kanon becomes Beatrice's furniture in EP2.

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You're right. I didn't phrase that satisfactorily. What I should say is that it's more like Beatrice is the closest to Yasu's own self-image. Of the three, it's the one "most close to home" (possibly because it's the one that holds her most honest romantic feelings).
But isn't that actually the problem that leads Yasu to becoming a murderer? The fact that she can't embrace the idea of moving on with George. Isn't it exactly the fact that she keeps her love to Battler alive within her that keeps her from "becoming a new person" and moving on?
I wouldn't say that the feelings in Beatrice are more honest. It's the problem that she can't accept her love towards George as true, even so far that she considers going for a groupie like Jessica in exchange. It is this misconception that drives her into her idea of the roulette. Shannon is as true as Beatrice (and Kanon isn't as true as those) and that is why there is a battle, because she doesn't know which one is "true".

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A context that includes that this person is too cowardly, unsure of herself, and indecisive to make a phonecall, write a letter, or even speak her mind. How is she going to kill eighteen fucking people, wipe the blood off, and walk back into a room with a smile on her face as she feigns innocence?
But she didn't. She wanted to be that person or at least feared she could become that person who would become that uncatchable serial killer...but she probably never became that. I don't believe that she actually ever took those weapons and went around the island killing people and not showing any signs of remorse...but she wanted to be that person and therefore she had to split herself into different personalities within her fiction, because even she herself couldn't believe that she could do it without even flinching for a second.
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Old 2011-08-05, 22:49   Link #23633
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Quote:
Of course it could possibly work, though it would leave the question why she didn't hide the actuall culprit X within her stories. Of course you could say she loved George enough to cover him from the world's blame. But then again, why would she leave him alive in her EP1 plan until the very end?
While I also see the potential in George to murder (which is probably the reason why he was killed both in EP3 and 4) based on his development during the whole series as an ass who would sacrifice his whole family for his own desires, I don't think Yasu would have covered for that, especially if she was able to kill him for that.
I'm not seeing the causation of your question. What's the contradiction in "George is the culprit" and "George lives until the end of EP1"?

The Message Bottles aren't necessarily, and probably aren't, Yasu's "plans", but possible scenarios of how things can go down, possibly implying she wrote them before the incident (given conceits like making herself the culprit if she isn't, etc).

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I wouldn't call it 100% for each goal, I'd rather say it was probably something like 40% Beatrice (getting love from Battler or flicking the switch), 40% Shannon (being with George and being sure of it) and probably 20% Kanon (going for the secure route with Jessica). I know how that can appear as working for different goals at the same time...but it's actually more like being torn between which goal is actually worth reaching, isn't it?
I think it's no accident that in each Episode Kanon and Shannon have to die in the course of the story and why Kanon becomes Beatrice's furniture in EP2.
Eh, fair enough. It's just the determinations of the characters involved being "maxed out" in the narrative. I usually take it as a fictional conceit but Ryukishi seems to want us to take it literal. I don't know.

I'd say it's more 50/30/20 on the Beato/Sayo/Kanon scale though. George didn't get no meta-uplift, yo.

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But isn't that actually the problem that leads Yasu to becoming a murderer? The fact that she can't embrace the idea of moving on with George. Isn't it exactly the fact that she keeps her love to Battler alive within her that keeps her from "becoming a new person" and moving on?
How the hell does this lead to "fuck it, kill everyone"? Maybe if it was just killing love interests and people who interfere, but what the hell did Gohda, or Nanjo, or Maria, or whoever do?

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I wouldn't say that the feelings in Beatrice are more honest. It's the problem that she can't accept her love towards George as true, even so far that she considers going for a groupie like Jessica in exchange. It is this misconception that drives her into her idea of the roulette. Shannon is as true as Beatrice (and Kanon isn't as true as those) and that is why there is a battle, because she doesn't know which one is "true".
I'd say Battler's feelings are more honest not in sincerity but because it's the only relationship not formed for the purpose of compensation, even if she honestly loves these two.

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But she didn't. She wanted to be that person or at least feared she could become that person who would become that uncatchable serial killer...but she probably never became that. I don't believe that she actually ever took those weapons and went around the island killing people and not showing any signs of remorse...but she wanted to be that person and therefore she had to split herself into different personalities within her fiction, because even she herself couldn't believe that she could do it without even flinching for a second.
So then how'd she do it, if she's the culprit? If she flipped the bomb switch, we run into the "but the bitch can't even make a phonecall" problem. How the hell is she going to cajole Battler into a boat with the knowledge that she's blowing his entire family to fucking smithereens? How'd she even get the words out of her mouth to convince him to come with her?
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Old 2011-08-05, 23:58   Link #23634
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This conversation is kind of losing me. Let me try to summarize my thoughts on this...
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Old 2011-08-06, 00:04   Link #23635
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I love you Renall. That is all.
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Old 2011-08-06, 00:46   Link #23636
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One of the reasons I still lurk these forums. Renall's posts always crack me up!
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Old 2011-08-06, 00:52   Link #23637
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Renall. Thanks for that. Umineko is actually a little clearer now.
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Old 2011-08-06, 00:57   Link #23638
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
I'm not seeing the causation of your question. What's the contradiction in "George is the culprit" and "George lives until the end of EP1"?
The question I have is: If George was never any more than a replacement for Battler, why would she go as far as covering for somebody who she will then not end up with anyway? George culprit is possible, but I don't see the causation in her covering up for him if she actually knew of his planned crimes prior to the 1986 conference. Creating a cover for something she believed she herself would commit, yes, but I have trouble believing that she would go as far as actively protect that party.
But that of course depends largely on the personal interpretation of Yasu.

Quote:
I'd say it's more 50/30/20 on the Beato/Sayo/Kanon scale though. George didn't get no meta-uplift, yo.
Yes, okay, basically at least in her own narratives Beatrice is stronger than even Sayo and Kanon combined (EP4), so it would probably even be 60/30/10...but I think the reality is a bit different, considering how much she actually pained herself about wether to return to her feelings to Battler or to be with George. And in EP4 Beatrice was only able to make Shannon die after George revealed his true self to "her", going all "Yo, I'm gunna kill ev'rybody just to be with u!!".

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How the hell does this lead to "fuck it, kill everyone"? Maybe if it was just killing love interests and people who interfere, but what the hell did Gohda, or Nanjo, or Maria, or whoever do?
Well, her biggest fear is to give up on George and Jessica to be with Battler only to find out that there was no love to begin with. I think it's more or less a sign for her that she is that unimportant and unworthy of love, that nothing else matters anymore. It really shows with EP4 Beato when she meets Battler on the balcony. She basically threw everything in the gutter for him and he doesn't even remember a simple promise.
And for the others...
Gohda is carrying out orders, it's pretty imaginable in EP4 that he was working together with Kumasawa to watch the hostages.
Kumasawa is killed by the stake of envy in both narratives written by Yasu...which could imply that she suspected her of actually lusting after the fortune herself.
Nanj is marked with the stake of sloth in those...which could show is absolute willingness to let everything happen as long as he is payed by the Ushiromiya's.

And Maria...let's accept it, she is not that much of an innocent girl. She is actually pretty scarred by those events and it's at least imaginable by Yasu and Tya that she has an urge to hurt others. And even though we still have to remember that she never kills Maria with evil intent, she always "lays her to rest".
I think by that we can assume that Yasu's mind is as warped that she actually believes that death is an option when the world offers you nothing else. Which would also explain why flicking the switch is an option at all.

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I'd say Battler's feelings are more honest not in sincerity but because it's the only relationship not formed for the purpose of compensation, even if she honestly loves these two.
Yeah, well, that depends more on your own definition of love...
Every kind of love starts out as a form of compensation but quickly turns into something different. You enter a relationship because you don't want to be alone, that's how I see it. Love is something pretty dirty...that's why I kinda like Umineko.
Rykishi himself even said that while at the beginning George might have been nothing but a replacement, the very fact that Shannon existed in the way she did shows that she developed honest feelings for him.

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So then how'd she do it, if she's the culprit? If she flipped the bomb switch, we run into the "but the bitch can't even make a phonecall" problem. How the hell is she going to cajole Battler into a boat with the knowledge that she's blowing his entire family to fucking smithereens? How'd she even get the words out of her mouth to convince him to come with her?
Because the roulette decided that there was no longer any room for Shannon or Kanon, only for the witch Beatrice who holds all the love for Battler. She is no longer indecisive once her path is pretty much decided...the problem is, she doesn't know which path to step on, that's the reason why the roulette exists.
The fact that she told him is pretty indicative of the fact that he actually remembered...the question is at which point. Either she already had become the "murderous Beatrice" and could do nothing more than let him and Eva escape...or her plan actually did go wrong at all ends (which I suspect) and even though she found out Battler loved her people used what she had prepared for the tragedy that occured.

She or anybody else could have only flipped the switch on the 5th, because even in Tya's narratives there is always also the 5th. That means the earliest point when the switch can be activated is the very second when Yasu let's the roulette decide, which is midnight from the 4th to the 5th.

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Originally Posted by Renall
This conversation is kind of losing me. Let me try to summarize my thoughts on this...
Normally I don't really get your humour...but this time you even hit my spot...that is just fabulous!
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Old 2011-08-06, 01:10   Link #23639
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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
The question I have is: If George was never any more than a replacement for Battler,
Hold up! Ryukishi actually made an argument in that interview that George was not just a replacement for battler. Although she did have a "what if he his?" conflict in her mind.

Quote:
But to be honest, I think if she really told him that, George would be more than happy to modify his plans for the future. But Shannon was far to scared to hear that. And if you turn this around, it means that George really wasn’t just a replacement for Battler. Maybe he was a replacement at the beginning, but at some point she began completely seeing George for the man he was. If you think about that, his comment about children, must have kept haunting her in silence.
and with the small correction I will crawl back into hiding now :P
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Old 2011-08-06, 01:39   Link #23640
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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
And Maria...let's accept it, she is not that much of an innocent girl. She is actually pretty scarred by those events and it's at least imaginable by Yasu and Tya that she has an urge to hurt others. And even though we still have to remember that she never kills Maria with evil intent, she always "lays her to rest".
Maria? She doesn't even know what murder is. She might be dangerous, but she is as innocent as they come.
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