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Old 2011-08-06, 02:16   Link #23641
AuraTwilight
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The question I have is: If George was never any more than a replacement for Battler, why would she go as far as covering for somebody who she will then not end up with anyway? George culprit is possible, but I don't see the causation in her covering up for him if she actually knew of his planned crimes prior to the 1986 conference. Creating a cover for something she believed she herself would commit, yes, but I have trouble believing that she would go as far as actively protect that party.
But that of course depends largely on the personal interpretation of Yasu.
Just because he's a replacement doesn't mean she doesn't love him.

That, and the possibility that she's apparently willing to cover for people like Battler's parents, as implied in the EP7 Tea Party. Her standards aren't very high for the "Who I'll Shame Myself For" list, given that she has like NO self-esteem.

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Well, her biggest fear is to give up on George and Jessica to be with Battler only to find out that there was no love to begin with. I think it's more or less a sign for her that she is that unimportant and unworthy of love, that nothing else matters anymore. It really shows with EP4 Beato when she meets Battler on the balcony. She basically threw everything in the gutter for him and he doesn't even remember a simple promise.
And for the others...
Gohda is carrying out orders, it's pretty imaginable in EP4 that he was working together with Kumasawa to watch the hostages.
Kumasawa is killed by the stake of envy in both narratives written by Yasu...which could imply that she suspected her of actually lusting after the fortune herself.
Nanj˘ is marked with the stake of sloth in those...which could show is absolute willingness to let everything happen as long as he is payed by the Ushiromiya's.
Bull. Gohda is a bumbling oaf consistently shown to be bad at lying, Kumasawa is Yasu's only mother figure and whenever her characterization is touched on by Yasu she's described as literally sinless (Virgilia's introduction at the First Twilight for instance), and Nanjo didn't even like...DO anything.

Plus, it's not consistent with Yasu's self-image or system of values as depicted to kill everyone else because she's afraid of romantic rejection,

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And Maria...let's accept it, she is not that much of an innocent girl. She is actually pretty scarred by those events and it's at least imaginable by Yasu and T˘ya that she has an urge to hurt others. And even though we still have to remember that she never kills Maria with evil intent, she always "lays her to rest".
Yea right. Maria is the most innocent character in the series by leaps and bounds. She never does anything to hurt anyone at any point except in a goddamn dream where she vents her frustrations at her horridly abusive mother, and even then once she wakes up goes right back to sucking up to her and praying for her to love her.

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I think by that we can assume that Yasu's mind is as warped that she actually believes that death is an option when the world offers you nothing else. Which would also explain why flicking the switch is an option at all.
Then why not kill yourself? Why do you have to kill everyone else? What the hell did Jessica do to deserve being killed? What the hell did Genji do? Why does Hideyoshi need to die?

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Yeah, well, that depends more on your own definition of love...
Every kind of love starts out as a form of compensation but quickly turns into something different. You enter a relationship because you don't want to be alone, that's how I see it. Love is something pretty dirty...that's why I kinda like Umineko.
Ryűkishi himself even said that while at the beginning George might have been nothing but a replacement, the very fact that Shannon existed in the way she did shows that she developed honest feelings for him.
I don't agree with that. For one thing, wanting to be with someone to avoid loneliness isn't "compensation" by any definition of the word.

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Because the roulette decided that there was no longer any room for Shannon or Kanon, only for the witch Beatrice who holds all the love for Battler. She is no longer indecisive once her path is pretty much decided...the problem is, she doesn't know which path to step on, that's the reason why the roulette exists.
The fact that she told him is pretty indicative of the fact that he actually remembered...the question is at which point. Either she already had become the "murderous Beatrice" and could do nothing more than let him and Eva escape...or her plan actually did go wrong at all ends (which I suspect) and even though she found out Battler loved her people used what she had prepared for the tragedy that occured.
I'm gonna stop you right here and suggest that the most logical course of action was that Yasu planned a murder mystery game, using the only thing she had in common with Battler to try and spark his memory and revive any love he might have had for her, and that way he could have the gold and her heart and she could be happy and everything would be awesome. Then someone ursurped it.

This is even hinted in EP5 and EP6, so booyah.
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Old 2011-08-06, 07:44   Link #23642
Cao Ni Ma
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Well, most discard outright the probability of Maria having anything to do with most of the things in the plot but I still believe she held a pretty big spot in it. At least till episode 4. As I've said before, Maria is the most symbol heavy character in the series. Either these things where unintentional or they had some sort of meaning behind them.

First thing is her name, a clear allusion to the christian faith. Its even written with a cross in it. Depending on which language you use to try an pinpoint its meaning it either comes out as bitter, sea of stars or love.

Second is her attire, she wears dark clothing on top and wears a black crown. In a series where chess plays an important part in its metaphor this seems to point at something but it still sounds like a stretch. What about that weird seating order that the Ushiromiya's have? Anything peculiar with it? From what I remember there are 6 rows of people eating at the table, there are 8 rows in chess. If you discard 2 rows in chess , the two with rooks (what would a chariot or tower eat?), what does that lead us? Where is Battler sitting at and who is in front of him?

Third her eye colors. Everyone else in rokkenjima has dark eyes while Maria has blue eyes. From what my eyes could see, this particular shade of blue is probably "royal blue" which in itself is peculiar. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_blue . Notice anything about the second, more modern shade? Its a lot like the witches eye color. Also its an allusion to the coming of a king.

Her flower at the start of the series and that plays a somewhat important role in the first 4 episodes could be seen as a metaphor for herself, or Ange or Yasu really. At least thats how I saw it after hearing about of one the stories in the diary.

There are probably more that I cant remember, all of these are circumstantial and could be red herrings at best on RK07s part or he was oblivious to them.
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Old 2011-08-06, 10:00   Link #23643
haguruma
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Just because he's a replacement doesn't mean she doesn't love him.
Let me turn that around. Once she truly loves him he's more than a replacement.
That is what I mean with, it depends on your idea of love. Because it's not actually spelled out in the plot.

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That, and the possibility that she's apparently willing to cover for people like Battler's parents, as implied in the EP7 Tea Party. Her standards aren't very high for the "Who I'll Shame Myself For" list, given that she has like NO self-esteem.
But that would require your theory of Yasu knowing about somebody else commiting her murders, which would again raise the question of why she didn't call off her murder game when she knew it was going to be taken over by a murderer. What I don't like about that theory is that it's going in circles.

She send the message bottles and the letters at least one or two days before the family conference. This does fall into place with Battler's phonecall to Jessica, but it just doesn't explain why she wouldn't call off the whole thing if she knew of somebodies plan to murder.
If she knew, why would she send letters indicating towards her being the culprit? Especially when she had people like Battler or Maria whom she wanted to protect? Who was that person who knew about the whole set-up long enough to highjack her plan (implied in the plan, as you yourself said that you forbid conjecture)? If she actually cared enough to pay out people's families, why not actually destroy the bomb-mechanism, cast away the guns, warn at least Battler or Maria? Why would she carry out a game with the knowledge that it is going to be used by murder?
The only person pressuring Beatrice into her role was Lambdadelta...well, according to your theory we should maybe check out a George-delta theory.

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Bull. Gohda is a bumbling oaf consistently shown to be bad at lying, Kumasawa is Yasu's only mother figure and whenever her characterization is touched on by Yasu she's described as literally sinless (Virgilia's introduction at the First Twilight for instance), and Nanjo didn't even like...DO anything.
Is Gohda really portrayed as bad at lying? We know that he knows about the pranks by "Beatrice" in the past, yet he never dropped a word in front of Natsuhi as it appears. He was a bumbling mess in EP2 after the Kanon accident, but unless we assume that this actually happened, he was lying to Rosa. And in EP4 he convinces the cousins of a massacre in the dining hall that was created by Kinz˘ (and you could argue that goat-kun was maybe Gohda's development). I'll admit that for the most part EP4 is nothing but fiction (and above that not created by Yasu), but you could argue that the parts that Battler witnessed could actually be what happened to him during those 2 days.

Is Kumasawa really just a sinless mother figure? Yes, she even protected the newborn Beatrice in EP6 from BATTLER's rage (which is probably indicative of what she did for Beatrice II in front of Kinz˘). But she is also a lying, conniving old witch. She created those thoughts of a ghostly Beatrice connected to demons and evil spirits in everybody (not only Yasu), she probably actively hid the real truth of the shrine-vanishing-accident, she probably knew about the path to Kuwadorian, yet she refused to act at any time during Yasu's narratives.
Also in EP4, like Gohda, she was the one telling the story of the dining hall massacre to the cousins and instigated them to lock them into the shed (with the key in their possession).

And Nanj˘'s sin is exactly his passivness. He knew about Yasu, he knew about Kuwadorian, he knew about Kinz˘'s death, he knew just about anything. His only excuse is (as said in EP3) that he has a sick grandchild and needed the money. He lacks any moral fiber within the stories once you know what he actually knows. In EP1 he is probably very much aware of who was behind the whole set-up, he could have raised his voice from the moment the letter arrived as he knew who was in possession of the ring AND the title of Beatrice given in the message. Instead he just sits there, bumbling about how he was playing chess with a dead guy.

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Plus, it's not consistent with Yasu's self-image or system of values as depicted to kill everyone else because she's afraid of romantic rejection,
Is she actually depicted that way? Where? I see her depicted as killing those who made her or people close to her suffer, because she sees it as justified. That might be misguided and weak, but what did she learn in her life? The strong always has to conquer the weak or he himself will be destroyed...the whole island lived for that motto.


Yea right. Maria is the most innocent character in the series by leaps and bounds. She never does anything to hurt anyone at any point except in a goddamn dream where she vents her frustrations at her horridly abusive mother, and even then once she wakes up goes right back to sucking up to her and praying for her to love her.

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Then why not kill yourself? Why do you have to kill everyone else? What the hell did Jessica do to deserve being killed? What the hell did Genji do? Why does Hideyoshi need to die?
You could ask that question to almost any murderer in the history of time AND in every mystery fiction ever written. If you hate your life that much, why not just kill yourself? Because it doesn't amount to anything? Because it's not satisfying? Because something needs to be done in order to change things?
Just look at the the Ushiromiya family and household without the (however misguided) love that was evidently there in both Yasu and T˘ya. They are at least portrayed as a pretty rotten bunch, all of them. There are things you stop seeing once you add love.

Jessica was lusting after "Kanon", yet she was shown as pretty eager to kill whoever was responsible for the tragedy in EP2. Imagine what conflict that must have created between them. She wasn't killed in EP1 where she was just a sad victim of circumstances as a "cast away future".
Genji was actually hoping for it as it seems. It is implied in many parts that he was "hoping for the day where he could finally rest in peace" and that he "sadly did not get that chance as early as he hoped because of somebodies foolishnes" (EP2 execute screen) or that he finally got his wish at the end of EP2 "to rest peacefully in the Golden Land".
Hideyoshi was, while he was also portrayed as a loving husband, also ready to sacrifice things for this love. He lied for Yasu in EP1, which shows that she sees that potential within him.

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I'm gonna stop you right here and suggest that the most logical course of action was that Yasu planned a murder mystery game, using the only thing she had in common with Battler to try and spark his memory and revive any love he might have had for her, and that way he could have the gold and her heart and she could be happy and everything would be awesome. Then someone ursurped it.

This is even hinted in EP5 and EP6, so booyah.
It is highly possible that she planned it as a murder mystery game in the very beginning, that she was hoping for it to be a fun night. Yet she confesses that it is Battler's return that triggered so many people to die. Due to your sin people die. Triggered by your sin, the people on this island will die in large number. Nobody can escape, they all die.
It is actually implied in EP6, that "the 1st twilight" was supposed to be nothing more than a stand off between the lovers to try and decide who would actually succeed. Only EP5 hinted towards a fake murder plot...though EP5 is a whole other problem in itself, because it raises the question of why Battler actually continued to further the witch's illusion during the family conference by creating the event of the letter and the knock.

----

By the way...EP6...all the fights during the "1st twilight" make some sense. George confronts Eva about allowing his love for Shannon. Beatrice confronts Natsuhi, the mother who cast her away. Kanon and Shannon confront Rosa and Maria, the two who were responsible for both the white and the black magic.
But why does Jessica confront Kyrie? Why Kyrie of all people? Why not her own father? What is there about Kyrie that she needs to overcome? (I definitely have to reread that part...)

Considering it is Battler who is not seen to be killed by any of the contestants. Considerig he is the one left alive by Erika (who is filling in for Battler as the detective). Considering that this basically amounts to the same setup as the locked room chain in EP3...this would only leave us, if we would exclude Yasu-culprit, with Battler culprit.
Battler-kun is not the culprit!
Battler-kun did not kill anybody.
This can be said for all the games.

If we actually go with AT's Covering for Culprit X theory, this is the only solution I can arrive at. She created a set-up within her games where Battler could never be the culprit, where he was always free of sin, because he was the detective.
The only one who could have highjacked Yasu's plans and had enough influence on her to make her cover for him is Ushiromiya Battler himself.
The only two people he ever truly loved are Ange and Yasu, therefore he lead Eva on to escape and care for Ange, while he escaped with Yasu.
He knew that Eva was weak and that she would care for Ange.
Therefore the terrible truth that drives Ange insane is the fact that her beloved brother, the one person she wanted to return, was a murderer.
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Old 2011-08-06, 11:04   Link #23644
Cao Ni Ma
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Its pretty clear why Kyrie had to die in that scene in EP6. Battler was the exception in that case not Kyrie, just targeting the females in the family. Also in a more meta sense these where all characters that had a fair bit of suspicion placed on them trough out the series.

e- Im pretty sure some have mentioned the whole "Battler is the culprit and everything that he's done was a rationalization to try and hide what he did" theory some time ago
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Old 2011-08-06, 12:50   Link #23645
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Random comments, because it'd be a pain to quote every post.

1. Renall, you are a wonderful person. That strip seriously made my morning. XD

2. Not a fan of "Yasu is covering for culprit X" idea - it's not what I'd call a compliment to say so, but it seems kind of ... disrespectful, I want to say, to simply dismiss the possibility of Yasu either finding the resolve, or being in a situation to warrant murder.

3. Jessica clearly stated that she chose Kyrie by chance - roulette and all that. Of course, that was the Gamemaster's theme of "the victims are all women, and Battler too I guess.

4. Gohda is an awful liar - just because he DOES lie doesn't make him good at it. And in both instances he had a much better liar present to back up him up. He's such a bad liar that I honestly wonder why Yasu would've killed Gensawajo instead of him in any instance at all. Unless, in the Meta-sense, they thought "Geez, Gohda never has any scenes."

5. Fake murder game was not implied, but the crux of EP 6's main plot point. Motivate Piece-Battler however you see fit, I guess. o_o
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Old 2011-08-06, 13:10   Link #23646
Cao Ni Ma
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I think having Yasu not be the culprit a more fitting end to the series than having her just be it. I like the idea that all the Ushiromiya women have their personal issues and that in the end they try their hardest to make up for them. We saw it with Natsuhi after coming to terms after her forced marriage. Eva with covering what happen and adopting Ange, Rosa with....????? maybe something to do with "Beatrice" 2 and or Maria? Kyrie (if we dont treat her as an insane murder) with Battler and Rudolph.

Also as Ive said, the whole scene with Ange and the book at the end wouldnt make sense if it said "And it was all servant X that committed the crimes" It either had to be her parents, Battler or Maria.
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Old 2011-08-06, 13:19   Link #23647
haguruma
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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
4. Gohda is an awful liar - just because he DOES lie doesn't make him good at it. And in both instances he had a much better liar present to back up him up. He's such a bad liar that I honestly wonder why Yasu would've killed Gensawajo instead of him in any instance at all. Unless, in the Meta-sense, they thought "Geez, Gohda never has any scenes."
I'd say it could also be backed up by another feature of Gohda. He's a coward.
If he was threatened with a blade or a gun, I think he'd do anything just to save his hide. You can see in EP2 that he actually doesn't know what he's saying, he probably just thought he'd better say nothing before messing everything up.
And what were his chances? He could go against Genji and Yasu, who already killed 2 people in (most probably) his presence, and would end up dead, he could go confess to Rosa, who is according to what "Kanon" said, possibly a mumbling mess of paranoia who would shoot him dead before he finished "...but I'm not involved!", he could escape on an island that the people with guns know better than him or he could just go with Yasu's plan and play along.

I think it's quite probable that Yasu actually suspected that Kumasawa and Nanj˘ would have opposed her in that situation and therefore she'd had to kill them. It's actually wolf vs. sheep. If Kumasawa, Nanj˘ and Gohda would have gone to Rosa and confessed against Yasu and Genji, Rosa might have been convinced...but one person against two, her chances are better with that.

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5. Fake murder game was not implied, but the crux of EP 6's main plot point. Motivate Piece-Battler however you see fit, I guess. o_o
No, no, I'm against the Covering for Culprit X theory just as much. I only wanted to say that IF there was a hidden culprit beyond Yasu within all the forgeries then I'd say it's hinted to be Battler.
George is quite implausible because it's made quite clear that Yasu would rather kill him than make him go bad, I think.

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Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma
Also as Ive said, the whole scene with Ange and the book at the end wouldnt make sense if it said "And it was all servant X that committed the crimes" It either had to be her parents, Battler or Maria.
I'd still say that the truth of the real Rokkenjima is something close to the EP7 Tea Party, which might probably be an excerpt of Eva's diary. The only thing that Bern corrected was, that the truth doesn't limit itself to this depiction...which is true considering that we never learned anything beyond Eva's perspective in that piece.
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Old 2011-08-06, 13:21   Link #23648
Wanderer
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Could someone remind me of any details about when and how the first two bottle-stories were found?
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Old 2011-08-06, 13:43   Link #23649
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Could someone remind me of any details about when and how the first two bottle-stories were found?
The endroll of EP1 said that the one message bottle that we knew of back then was found "several years later" (数年後), by a fisherman at the wharf of a neighbouring island. Professor ďtsuki in EP4 confirms this and says it was a young fisherman who suspected the message to be worth something. This was because in 1987 items from Rokkenjima had become quite valuable after Eva had sold Kinz˘'s collection of occult scriptures and books from Kuwadorian at an auction. Which was also the first point when Rokkenjima actually became known as "the occult island". Also ďtsuki said that the Seikimatsu paranoia had already started and was part of the reason why the occult island idea became that popular, which implies that it was probably something around '92 when the message bottle turned up.

The second message bottle we learn of from ďtsuki in EP4 turned out to have been found during a police search in the nearby waters of Rokkenjima on the day the tragedy occured. The police also released a report that due to the state of the crime scene and the state of how the bottle was sealed a forgery is highly unlikely and that it is likely to have been dispatched within some very few days almost right before the incident.
Also the handwriting in both of these messages was proven to be identical, therefore the first one was handled as a legitimate piece as well.

It was also said by experts that the content of the messages was that detailed on Rokkenjima and it's inhabitants, that it must have been written by an insider.
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Old 2011-08-06, 14:53   Link #23650
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The handwriting of both also matched the Beatrice parts in Maria's diary, right?

Interesting that the ep1 bottle was discovered years after the ep2 bottle. I wonder what it means that their order was switched for meta-Battler and for us, the readers.

And what of the vastly different role that magic plays in each story?
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Old 2011-08-06, 15:16   Link #23651
AuraTwilight
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Let me turn that around. Once she truly loves him he's more than a replacement.
That is what I mean with, it depends on your idea of love. Because it's not actually spelled out in the plot.
But does Yasu see it that way? "I only got with him because Battler wasn't around. I'm terrible!"

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But that would require your theory of Yasu knowing about somebody else commiting her murders, which would again raise the question of why she didn't call off her murder game when she knew it was going to be taken over by a murderer. What I don't like about that theory is that it's going in circles.
There's also the theory that the message bottles were written post-incident.

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Is Gohda really portrayed as bad at lying? We know that he knows about the pranks by "Beatrice" in the past, yet he never dropped a word in front of Natsuhi as it appears. He was a bumbling mess in EP2 after the Kanon accident, but unless we assume that this actually happened, he was lying to Rosa. And in EP4 he convinces the cousins of a massacre in the dining hall that was created by Kinz˘ (and you could argue that goat-kun was maybe Gohda's development). I'll admit that for the most part EP4 is nothing but fiction (and above that not created by Yasu), but you could argue that the parts that Battler witnessed could actually be what happened to him during those 2 days.
In every instance where Gohda is involved in lying about anything, his partners are correcting or finishing what he says for the most part.

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Is Kumasawa really just a sinless mother figure? Yes, she even protected the newborn Beatrice in EP6 from BATTLER's rage (which is probably indicative of what she did for Beatrice II in front of Kinz˘). But she is also a lying, conniving old witch. She created those thoughts of a ghostly Beatrice connected to demons and evil spirits in everybody (not only Yasu), she probably actively hid the real truth of the shrine-vanishing-accident, she probably knew about the path to Kuwadorian, yet she refused to act at any time during Yasu's narratives.
Also in EP4, like Gohda, she was the one telling the story of the dining hall massacre to the cousins and instigated them to lock them into the shed (with the key in their possession).
OH MY GOD KUMASAWA IS AN EVIL CONNIVING WITCH SHE TOLD GHOST STORIES BRO.

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And Nanj˘'s sin is exactly his passivness. He knew about Yasu, he knew about Kuwadorian, he knew about Kinz˘'s death, he knew just about anything. His only excuse is (as said in EP3) that he has a sick grandchild and needed the money. He lacks any moral fiber within the stories once you know what he actually knows. In EP1 he is probably very much aware of who was behind the whole set-up, he could have raised his voice from the moment the letter arrived as he knew who was in possession of the ring AND the title of Beatrice given in the message. Instead he just sits there, bumbling about how he was playing chess with a dead guy.
Of course, this all assumes Yasu is passing moral judgement on the Ushiromiyas and company in the first place, not exactly the most concrete fact.

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Is she actually depicted that way? Where? I see her depicted as killing those who made her or people close to her suffer, because she sees it as justified. That might be misguided and weak, but what did she learn in her life? The strong always has to conquer the weak or he himself will be destroyed...the whole island lived for that motto.
That's silly, Yasu never exhibits this trait at any point.

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You could ask that question to almost any murderer in the history of time AND in every mystery fiction ever written. If you hate your life that much, why not just kill yourself? Because it doesn't amount to anything? Because it's not satisfying? Because something needs to be done in order to change things?
Just look at the the Ushiromiya family and household without the (however misguided) love that was evidently there in both Yasu and T˘ya. They are at least portrayed as a pretty rotten bunch, all of them. There are things you stop seeing once you add love.
The difference is that, given the reds, Yasu doesn't want revenge, doesn't want the gold, gains nothing from any of this, and wants Battler to stop them.

This sets her apart from pretty much every other mass murderer ever. She has nothing to gain from it, not even release.

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Jessica was lusting after "Kanon", yet she was shown as pretty eager to kill whoever was responsible for the tragedy in EP2. Imagine what conflict that must have created between them. She wasn't killed in EP1 where she was just a sad victim of circumstances as a "cast away future".
Genji was actually hoping for it as it seems. It is implied in many parts that he was "hoping for the day where he could finally rest in peace" and that he "sadly did not get that chance as early as he hoped because of somebodies foolishnes" (EP2 execute screen) or that he finally got his wish at the end of EP2 "to rest peacefully in the Golden Land".
Hideyoshi was, while he was also portrayed as a loving husband, also ready to sacrifice things for this love. He lied for Yasu in EP1, which shows that she sees that potential within him.
Jessica = She loves him. She's never described as LUSTING after him. Hell, Beatrice never even accuses her of it, unlike George.

Genji = inconsistent characterization is inconsistent.

Hideyoshi = "Lie for me or I kill your whole fucking family" or "Lie in order to support the murder mystery game so everyone can have gold ^_^" Take your pick.

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It is highly possible that she planned it as a murder mystery game in the very beginning, that she was hoping for it to be a fun night. Yet she confesses that it is Battler's return that triggered so many people to die. Due to your sin people die. Triggered by your sin, the people on this island will die in large number. Nobody can escape, they all die.
If a murder mystery game was going to happen, it is absolutely certainly for Battler's benefit. And because she does it for Battler since he came back this year, someone hijacks the opportunity to take their own agenda. Reds satisfied.

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It is actually implied in EP6, that "the 1st twilight" was supposed to be nothing more than a stand off between the lovers to try and decide who would actually succeed. Only EP5 hinted towards a fake murder plot...though EP5 is a whole other problem in itself, because it raises the question of why Battler actually continued to further the witch's illusion during the family conference by creating the event of the letter and the knock.
Yea, because EP6 totally didn't have six people pretending to be dead in order to troll Erika as part of a game or anything. No. Not at all.

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If we actually go with AT's Covering for Culprit X theory, this is the only solution I can arrive at. She created a set-up within her games where Battler could never be the culprit, where he was always free of sin, because he was the detective.
I have to admit that Battler Culprit Theory has a strong elegance to it, but I have to discount such a possibility because it's a total Dick Move, as we call it in the legal department.

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The only one who could have highjacked Yasu's plans and had enough influence on her to make her cover for him is Ushiromiya Battler himself.
The only two people he ever truly loved are Ange and Yasu, therefore he lead Eva on to escape and care for Ange, while he escaped with Yasu.
He knew that Eva was weak and that she would care for Ange.
Therefore the terrible truth that drives Ange insane is the fact that her beloved brother, the one person she wanted to return, was a murderer.
Ange did it. Don't be stupid.

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2. Not a fan of "Yasu is covering for culprit X" idea - it's not what I'd call a compliment to say so, but it seems kind of ... disrespectful, I want to say, to simply dismiss the possibility of Yasu either finding the resolve, or being in a situation to warrant murder.
Sorry to say that Yasu wasn't written to be respectable, she's supposed to be PITIFUL, and I can't really pity someone who massmurders a shitton of people who never did anything to her simply because she's having an emo breakdown over teenage romantic drama bullshit.

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Interesting that the ep1 bottle was discovered years after the ep2 bottle. I wonder what it means that their order was switched for meta-Battler and for us, the readers.
Apparently Yasu threw out 3+ Message Bottles and only the two were found. Given this, they were probably meant to go in any order, and Toya either added in the Meta-World afterwards to give continuity, or the Meta-World really exists. Yasu most certainly didn't write it.
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Old 2011-08-06, 16:17   Link #23652
haguruma
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
The handwriting of both also matched the Beatrice parts in Maria's diary, right?

Interesting that the ep1 bottle was discovered years after the ep2 bottle. I wonder what it means that their order was switched for meta-Battler and for us, the readers.
Well, it's quite possible that the police only admitted to finding the other message bottle after T˘ya and Ikuko had already gotten their hands on the one that was found by the fisherman. It's strongly implied that the narrative follows T˘ya's order of reading and not really a coherent narrative thought out by Yasu in the first place.

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
But does Yasu see it that way? "I only got with him because Battler wasn't around. I'm terrible!"
Yasu sees it that way, at least a part of her, that's why there are Shannon and Beatrice fighting over it.
"No, I truly love him, you mean old witch!", "Don't be ridiculous what do you think can come of it...what do you think he will say when he sees your body?!", "He loves me and I love him...you didn't even ever experience love!!", "I didn't experience love? Your just using him as an excuse!!"...
What appears like a bitch-fight is very easy to dismantle as Yasu being unsure wether George actually is the man she loves or just a replacement. If she was sure it wasn't that way, we wouldn't have the whole freakin' dilemma in the first place.

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There's also the theory that the message bottles were written post-incident.
Which is pretty stupid you'd have to admit, because it would involve the police actually faking reports and giving out false information about the message bottle they found on the day of the incident.
Unless you say that Yasu survived and approached the police later on bribing them with the money that was left to release the second message bottle once she bribed the fisherman into telling that he found a bottle.

This opens up a whole new level of wrong...which would take us from ミステリ to 社会派...and Ryűkishi said he definitely did not write 社会派.

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OH MY GOD KUMASAWA IS AN EVIL CONNIVING WITCH SHE TOLD GHOST STORIES BRO.
Which is not the only thing she did, but ignore the rest...that's okay.

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Of course, this all assumes Yasu is passing moral judgement on the Ushiromiyas and company in the first place, not exactly the most concrete fact.
But she is passing moral judgement with her narratives, as is T˘ya. The way they are presented within the stories is very much focused on both their worst faults and their most saintly aspects. The fact alone that she is killing them in their stories is prove that she has already passed a moral judgment somewhere in her mind...or why else would she confront Natsuhi in the end and shoot her in the head? Surely not because she has forgiven her would be mommy.
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The difference is that, given the reds, Yasu doesn't want revenge, doesn't want the gold, gains nothing from any of this, and wants Battler to stop them.
That is actually the only thing that is making everything kind of strange. But I hope it's okay to come back to that once I reread EP5 and especially this scene. Of course I could say, yes, she didn't coduct the game in order to get revenge and it is all going back to the line "this is true for all the games"...but I'm not satisfied with it myself. So please let me think about it a little more.

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This sets her apart from pretty much every other mass murderer ever. She has nothing to gain from it, not even release.
This was actually not told. The only thing that did not grant her release or anything else was solving the epitaph. The only thing that was said about her actions (which I don't know for sure if that refered to the games or to the murders) was that it was not to instigate fear, not to get revenge and not to enjoy herself.

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Genji = inconsistent characterization is inconsistent.
Why is that in any way inconsistent? He's shown as working his ass of for his master and only doing it so that one day he might rest in peace. Where is the inconsistency?

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If a murder mystery game was going to happen, it is absolutely certainly for Battler's benefit. And because she does it for Battler since he came back this year, someone hijacks the opportunity to take their own agenda. Reds satisfied.
That point goes to you. It would actually makes sense, though it doesn't even need Genius-Yasu who knows about somebody highjacking the game. She could just be celebrating Battler's return with a murder mystery game, invites all the parents and cousins and sends letters with some money to the families because she doesn't need that much afterwards anymore anyway. And the message bottles were actually just a fun little prank.
You could actually construct a story without Evil-Yasu at all with that set-up.

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Yea, because EP6 totally didn't have six people pretending to be dead in order to troll Erika as part of a game or anything. No. Not at all.
Who said anything that the people on the island were doing it to troll Erika? Was that said by anybody on the gameboard?

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I have to admit that Battler Culprit Theory has a strong elegance to it, but I have to discount such a possibility because it's a total Dick Move, as we call it in the legal department.
We in the legal department? Are you a lawyer, too?
And just because you dislike a theory doesn't make it the wrong theory. It's like saying that you don't believe in Agatha Christie's solution of a certain novel centering around the demise of a certain Mr. A.

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Ange did it. Don't be stupid.
Ange was not on the island in 1986.
Ange was 8 in 1986.
Unless you want to include never hinted amnesiac Ange who forgot her presence on the island, this is total bullshit (as you'd say). You can't counter a theory that can be made according to events in the story with a theory that has been actively disproven by everything within the plot.

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Sorry to say that Yasu wasn't written to be respectable, she's supposed to be PITIFUL, and I can't really pity someone who massmurders a shitton of people who never did anything to her simply because she's having an emo breakdown over teenage romantic drama bullshit.
Then I fear it appears like you are wrong the world of Japanese mystery fiction.
Spoiler for Oguri Mushitar˘s Mansion of the Black Death Murder Case:

Spoiler for Yokomizo Seishis Village of the Eight Graves:

Spoiler for Yokomizo Seishis The Case of the Inugami Clan:

Spoiler for Yokomizo Seishis The Devil comes bearing a Flute:

Spoiler for Ayatsuji Yukitos Murder in the Decagon Mansion:

It's almost always some "emo bullshit" and mostly never a genius murderer who kills only for being a genius. And it's actually a matter of perspective wether you can pity Yasu or not. I can. Does that make me a bad person? I think the people on Rokkenjima are pretty terrible people...not terrible enough to warrant murder, but it wouldn't be a tragedy if it didn't evolve into a terrible chain of misunderstandings.
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Old 2011-08-06, 16:37   Link #23653
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Quote:
Yasu sees it that way, at least a part of her, that's why there are Shannon and Beatrice fighting over it.
"No, I truly love him, you mean old witch!", "Don't be ridiculous what do you think can come of it...what do you think he will say when he sees your body?!", "He loves me and I love him...you didn't even ever experience love!!", "I didn't experience love? Your just using him as an excuse!!"...
What appears like a bitch-fight is very easy to dismantle as Yasu being unsure wether George actually is the man she loves or just a replacement. If she was sure it wasn't that way, we wouldn't have the whole freakin' dilemma in the first place.
Of course. What I'm saying is that part of her feels one way and another feels this way.

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Which is pretty stupid you'd have to admit, because it would involve the police actually faking reports and giving out false information about the message bottle they found on the day of the incident.
Unless you say that Yasu survived and approached the police later on bribing them with the money that was left to release the second message bottle once she bribed the fisherman into telling that he found a bottle.
Uh...no? The police are entirely telling the truth. It's just that Yasu threw them out later than they thought. Dur.

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Which is not the only thing she did, but ignore the rest...that's okay.
Once you suggested Kumasawa deserved death for telling ghost stories I stopped reading that part.

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But she is passing moral judgement with her narratives, as is T˘ya. The way they are presented within the stories is very much focused on both their worst faults and their most saintly aspects. The fact alone that she is killing them in their stories is prove that she has already passed a moral judgment somewhere in her mind...or why else would she confront Natsuhi in the end and shoot her in the head? Surely not because she has forgiven her would be mommy.
Everyone dies anyway because of PErson X, regardless of who that individual is. Assuming it's someone else, she takes their place in the narratives, and kills people for the reasons Person X did or something. The fact that she writes everyone inconsistently as both horrible and saintly shows regards more to her attempt to obscure people's true characters and give them moral amnesty.

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That point goes to you. It would actually makes sense, though it doesn't even need Genius-Yasu who knows about somebody highjacking the game. She could just be celebrating Battler's return with a murder mystery game, invites all the parents and cousins and sends letters with some money to the families because she doesn't need that much afterwards anymore anyway. And the message bottles were actually just a fun little prank.
You could actually construct a story without Evil-Yasu at all with that set-up.
MY ORIGINAL POINT ENTIRELY.

Aside from the Message Bottles part.

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Who said anything that the people on the island were doing it to troll Erika? Was that said by anybody on the gameboard?
Well, in EP5 and EP6, Erika is the detective instead of Battler. Why are they doing it if Battler is in on it both times?

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We in the legal department? Are you a lawyer, too?
And just because you dislike a theory doesn't make it the wrong theory. It's like saying that you don't believe in Agatha Christie's solution of a certain novel centering around the demise of a certain Mr. A.
I was making a joke. But psychologists and psychiatrists are often called in to do analysis on defendants and criminals. Y'know.

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Ange was not on the island in 1986.
Ange was 8 in 1986.
Unless you want to include never hinted amnesiac Ange who forgot her presence on the island, this is total bullshit (as you'd say). You can't counter a theory that can be made according to events in the story with a theory that has been actively disproven by everything within the plot.
I was joking, dude. You never read my silly Ange Culprit theory?

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It's almost always some "emo bullshit" and mostly never a genius murderer who kills only for being a genius. And it's actually a matter of perspective wether you can pity Yasu or not. I can. Does that make me a bad person? I think the people on Rokkenjima are pretty terrible people...not terrible enough to warrant murder, but it wouldn't be a tragedy if it didn't evolve into a terrible chain of misunderstandings.
And unlike all those examples, Ryukishi wants us to sympathize with and love Yasu as a character. All those above examples may be pitiable or sympathetic to a degree, but not to a degree of forgiveness like Yasu is given. Not to a degree of forgiveness as BATTLER GIVES HER.

If Yasu fucking killed everyone and Battler figured it out, why in the HELL is he breaking down into tears and telling her he's the one who did everything wrong, here? Why is he giving her a complete and total fucking moral pass?

Battler is a soft-hearted idiot but he's not going to condone the Rokkenjima incident just because he didn't bone her.
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Old 2011-08-06, 16:40   Link #23654
cronnoponno
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Hagamura, Beatrice, and the narrative have said in EP 6 that the ENTIRE game was supposed to be for the sole purpose of trolling Erika after she bragged about her detective awesomeness, only Erika was the one who made it into a tragedy.

I myself, pity Yasu though.
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Old 2011-08-06, 17:34   Link #23655
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Uh...no? The police are entirely telling the truth. It's just that Yasu threw them out later than they thought. Dur.
Which would be? In the few hours between showing Battler off to the boat and running back to the island, avoiding Eva and quickly writing 3 message bottles in order to cast them out to seas fast enough for one to go under and one to get carried away far enough not to be found along the other?

The problem is that the police found that one bottle apparently very early on the 6th. It's said they found it among the items discovered during the crime scene search in the waters sorrounding the area on the very day of the incident 事件当日.
They only did not see any need to report the message bottle until some time later...which is of course kinda fishy, but not really that strange considering how police is always depicted in mystery fiction as a group of no good idiots. Well, considering ďtsuki said that they also analyzed its autencity by the state of how it was sealed, maybe they never opened it in the first place.

Quote:
And unlike all those examples, Ryukishi wants us to sympathize with and love Yasu as a character. All those above examples may be pitiable or sympathetic to a degree, but not to a degree of forgiveness like Yasu is given. Not to a degree of forgiveness as BATTLER GIVES HER.
Well, actually they are. Yokomizos detective for example never turns them over to the police, because their existence as murderers alone is punishment enough (well and they always kill themselves in the end). It's always the culprit who is portrayed in a sympathetic way in the end, while the victims often end up as "deserving it in a strange way".
Most of the time I have no problem relating to that, when there are emotional traumata who move people who don't seem to see any other way out to murder. The only novel so far I absolutely despised was Utanos Murder in the Long House because the culprit was just a despicable mess:
[spoiler]The motive was that he was pressured because he was dealing drugs and a drug addict himself.[/quote]
I just couldn't feel with that culprit and Utano spend the whole epilogue to make him tell us how the culprit became that way and how sad that is...which I just couldn't agree on.
Though of course many people think his novel is genius...

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If Yasu fucking killed everyone and Battler figured it out, why in the HELL is he breaking down into tears and telling her he's the one who did everything wrong, here? Why is he giving her a complete and total fucking moral pass?
The problem is that we are again speaking of two different ways how to interprete the difference between reality and fiction.
He's shouldering the blame because her plan to kill everybody, which she would have probably never executed, rooted in his inability to see that she loved him back then. His selfishnes to run away from his family brought her so far and that after he was the only one she ever kind of trusted.
And on top of that I'm still sure that it never happened like she planned, because it couldn't go that way. She might have imagined herself to kill those people if all went wrong with both the trial of love and the epitaph riddle, but that was all overthrown when something quite similar to the Tea Party of EP7 happened.

The fact alone that she actually nuked that shrine shows that she had the idea in her head. The question is, did she carry it out, was she able to carry it out? I'd say no...and that was the most pitiful part of her existence, that she created all those things in her head and it was used by people around her and she couldn't even warn anybody.
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Old 2011-08-06, 18:40   Link #23656
Cao Ni Ma
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Battler would be a far greater man than I am if I found out one of my old friends ritualistically murdered my whole family because I didnt follow up on a silly promise I did as a kid.

I'd probably black out. Wake up in a dark room with a bat in my hands, a beaten up boy/girl and a naggin feeling that I might have been responsible for it. Next thing I know im in a writing a message in a bottle with a strange itch around my neck

vvvvvv
Will = Battler theory has been mentioned before. Most believe that isnt the case, I think I remember reading that Will was introduced because people in japan just didn't think Battler was trust worthy anymore. Battler culprit theory and all that.

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Old 2011-08-06, 18:46   Link #23657
cronnoponno
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I always thought it was weird how Will had a similar red strand in his hair, for some reason it reminds me a lot of Battler, but it probably doesn't, anyone else ever thought it was strange though?
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Old 2011-08-06, 19:19   Link #23658
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Which would be? In the few hours between showing Battler off to the boat and running back to the island, avoiding Eva and quickly writing 3 message bottles in order to cast them out to seas fast enough for one to go under and one to get carried away far enough not to be found along the other?
It's nowhere CLOSE to being the stupidest thing we're expected to buy from this story.

Quote:
The problem is that the police found that one bottle apparently very early on the 6th. It's said they found it among the items discovered during the crime scene search in the waters sorrounding the area on the very day of the incident 事件当日.
They only did not see any need to report the message bottle until some time later...which is of course kinda fishy, but not really that strange considering how police is always depicted in mystery fiction as a group of no good idiots. Well, considering ďtsuki said that they also analyzed its autencity by the state of how it was sealed, maybe they never opened it in the first place.
General stories were written beforehand, were edited and sent off after the incident, converting her fanfics into something more grand and purposeful in her regret and sorrow.

Quote:
Well, actually they are. Yokomizos detective for example never turns them over to the police, because their existence as murderers alone is punishment enough (well and they always kill themselves in the end). It's always the culprit who is portrayed in a sympathetic way in the end, while the victims often end up as "deserving it in a strange way".
Most of the time I have no problem relating to that, when there are emotional traumata who move people who don't seem to see any other way out to murder. The only novel so far I absolutely despised was Utanos Murder in the Long House because the culprit was just a despicable mess:
[spoiler]The motive was that he was pressured because he was dealing drugs and a drug addict himself.
I just couldn't feel with that culprit and Utano spend the whole epilogue to make him tell us how the culprit became that way and how sad that is...which I just couldn't agree on.
Though of course many people think his novel is genius...[/QUOTE]

Nevermind, then, those novels are bullshit.

I'm sorry, but I'm just not going to tolerate condolences and forgiveness for a mass murderer, so I'm going to take the course of action that doesn't reduce Umineko to a piece of asswipe.

Quote:
The fact alone that she actually nuked that shrine shows that she had the idea in her head.
Excuse me, but her nuking the shrine is not a fact. It's only suggested in EP7 Tea Party, which as we've gone over is FAR from trustworthy.

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I always thought it was weird how Will had a similar red strand in his hair, for some reason it reminds me a lot of Battler, but it probably doesn't, anyone else ever thought it was strange though?
It's just a coincidence. At best it's symbolic of how Will is doing what Battler couldn't do for Clair, just like Erika's blue hair both serves as making her a Bern-clone and also a diametric opposite to Battler.
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Old 2011-08-06, 20:07   Link #23659
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
General stories were written beforehand, were edited and sent off after the incident, converting her fanfics into something more grand and purposeful in her regret and sorrow.
Come on, now THAT is conjecture. It goes against anything we learned in EP4 and just because something appears kind of farfetched doesn't make it false. If you refuse to believe anything that appears in a story you're really starting to make up your own Umineko...
It was heavily implied that both the letters and the message bottles were both written and dispatched before the incident. Just give me one good reason to doubt that...and I don't mean your "I don't like the story the way I think the author wants me to think he thought about his story".

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Nevermind, then, those novels are bullshit.

I'm sorry, but I'm just not going to tolerate condolences and forgiveness for a mass murderer, so I'm going to take the course of action that doesn't reduce Umineko to a piece of asswipe.
Your free to do that, but then do it without trying to discard evidence given within the story only because it doesn't suit your taste of a proper mystery. In that case your no better than Bernkastel or the similarly unpleasent Will...
"I don't like the way mysteries are done today...so I'm just gonna call them all shit and prove to everybody that I know better"

It's your thing if you can't agree with a story that asks for understanding or forgiving a mass murderer...which is not the case in any of those stories, not even Umineko I think. I think they just ask for you to understand how a human being can be driven so far as to even think about committing such an act.
But if you prefer to calling it bullshit, asswipe or emo and want to reduce it to "She wanted to kill because he didn't bang her"...okay, if that's your idea of handling a narrative...

Quote:
Excuse me, but her nuking the shrine is not a fact. It's only suggested in EP7 Tea Party, which as we've gone over is FAR from trustworthy.
Again. What reason was there to lie about it? Why would this information be false if it is one of the elements that hints towards the explosion incident in the first place?
And what we've gone over is that you don't trust the EP7 Tea Party because it does not fit into your idea of the solution that Umineko should have. You're imposing a truth on a story while disregarding evidence that was clearly there from the start.
Would you rather believe in a magical lighting bolt that struck the shrine and magically made it vanish including Torţ and everything?!
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Old 2011-08-06, 20:25   Link #23660
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Am I the only one who loved the EP7 tea party? While deep down I hope it is fake, I am willing to accept it if that is indeed the solution, I also loved how the narrative was when Rudolph killed George, however I like to think that even when met with a stack of gold, everyone would have been smart enough to come to the same conclusion Kyrie did.(yeah just because we see millions of dollars worth of gold means we can exchange it for that much! Even moreso if one of us is dead!), I just can't buy that greed would make them THAT stupid.
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