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Old 2011-08-07, 16:05   Link #23681
Renall
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Well, there's always love for both...

Battler and George wanted to wrangle a three-way. Yasu was so disgusted she flipped the switch on the bomb.
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Old 2011-08-07, 17:15   Link #23682
AuraTwilight
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Everyone knows that Yasu wants a threeway with Battler and Jessica. She's bi, Jessica's desperate, and George gets two women. Sweet.
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Old 2011-08-07, 18:11   Link #23683
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Sorry to say that Yasu wasn't written to be respectable, she's supposed to be PITIFUL, and I can't really pity someone who massmurders a shitton of people who never did anything to her simply because she's having an emo breakdown over teenage romantic drama bullshit.
Mmm, that's not really what I meant... it's not really about whether she was portrayed as respectable, and I also acknowledge that out 18 humans are mere pieces. However, and this is probably a bad analogy, but it seems arrogant, like Battler's EP5 discussion about hidden doors, to entirely dismiss the notion of Yasu committing murder in R-Prime. Even a red truth like George would never kill Shannon I can only accept in the context of the fictions. Well, the fictions in the fiction that we are reading - you know what I mean. XD

1.) Message bottles being written after the incident still come off as the most plausible explanation. As has been pointed out before, we have NO IDEA how Meta the narrative in the forgeries are, and despite how they were written or signed, there would be a large dissonance between what we experienced, and anything similar that was restricted to Maria's perspective. That's mostly a problem with Banquet, which was accepted as a legitimate forgery despite her getting offed pretty early.

2.) About 1986 Battler's personality ... I assumed the "pieces can only move as is possible for them" was a rule sort of like "to be a legitimate forgery, the characters have to retain their ... character, because the other not-dead people in their lives would just call bullshit on it" or something like that. That doesn't always work, of course - lol-Kinzo for one thing, and Devil's Proof on things they might've just kept secret (for example, Natsuhi's friends would know of her constant headaches, but might call bullshit on her throwing a baby off a cliff, whether it was true or not), but it's just how I like to think of it.

I see little reason to believe 1986 Battler was notably different from the gregarious, friendly kinda kid he was usually described as. Even as a murderer. XD

Also, in hindsight, the idea that there's a lucrative murder mystery franchise, trolled by the internet, concerning the real-life, extremely recent deaths of an entirely family is really goddamn morbid.

3.) Random question is random, but if you were allowed to change the story around a bit to be appropriate for it, who would you have found acceptable as a culprit aside from Yasu? ABSOLUTELY EVERYONE I have ever introduced Umineko to went for Battler culprit immediately, so I'm glad the plot never went there, and George-culprit had/has a pretty strong following, as far as I can tell. I myself held Rosa pretty high up there all the way to Dawn, almost.
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Old 2011-08-07, 18:42   Link #23684
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Also, in hindsight, the idea that there's a lucrative murder mystery franchise, trolled by the internet, concerning the real-life, extremely recent deaths of an entirely family is really goddamn morbid.
Yeah, imagine people cosplaying Umineko the way they do now, only in their world, those were real people.
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Old 2011-08-07, 19:24   Link #23685
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1.) Message bottles being written after the incident still come off as the most plausible explanation. As has been pointed out before, we have NO IDEA how Meta the narrative in the forgeries are, and despite how they were written or signed, there would be a large dissonance between what we experienced, and anything similar that was restricted to Maria's perspective. That's mostly a problem with Banquet, which was accepted as a legitimate forgery despite her getting offed pretty early.
I think a huge problem that entered this discussion is the definition of "forgery", at least I see it as problematic. I know I used it often enough myself, but I only recently stumbled upon this problem.
While 偽書 [gisho] is normaly translated as forgery it is normally used to refer to something quite different. What you described is actually more something like a 贋作 [gansaku], a sham or counterfeit. We were never actually told that Banquet was believed to be an actual message bottle found after the incident, it was just believed to be a 偽書 from the very start. And I think in this case 偽書 refers to something like an apocryphal book or (as the Wikipedia link indicates) a false document.
While a false document can be a forgery at the same time it has no intent to pass as the original, but is a fictional work that tries to make the reader believe that it is actually describing the truth.

It is even said that Hachij˘ T˘ya is not the only 偽書作家 or "false document author", but his theories are believed to be the ones closest to what could be true or at least the ones that are the hardest to prove as being wrong.
T˘ya and Ikuko don't attempt to pass their books as written by the original Ushiromiya Maria (which nobody would believe anyway unless the stand-in actor for T˘ya/Ikuko that Ange mentioned was missing half his jaw), or even the person that is suspected by the Witch Hunters to have forged Ushiromiya Marias name, they try to make it pass as possible truths...
Or maybe we could assume that at least T˘ya is deliberatly flooding the market with his own works, making other people write 偽書 as well, in order to obscure the truth even further.

Mockumentaries and semidocumentaries for example are such cases of 偽書 in fiction. Like how Bram Stokers Dracula is portrayed in the form of reports and diary entries or how The Texas Chainsaw Massacre is said to be based on true events. The fiction is claiming a sort of truth for itself, not by actually copying what is already there, but by portraying itself as factual or at least fictionalizing truth.
TCM was never intended to pass as videos made during the actual events, but it made people believe that there were actual events very similar, if not identical to the ones portrayed in the film.
So we could assume that maybe Banquet (no matter if it was written by T˘ya or possibly even Eva) was told as diary entries of Ushiromiya Eva. Or maybe Alliance was really told from the perspective of Battler in the guesthouse.

I think this is something we should actually think about, because I think not all of us are on the same page here.
If that's not the case, sorry for sounding like a know-it-all.

Last edited by haguruma; 2011-08-07 at 19:39.
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Old 2011-08-07, 22:41   Link #23686
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Yes, I think we have the same idea.

As has been established, nobody believes that any of the stories after EP2 came from message bottles. Merely that "they feel like they could've been", with the idea being that you could only create something that sounds so legitimate by having solved all there was to solve from the originals.

The distinction in authorship has always been kind of wonky - that the first 4 games are grouped together as "Beato's games", despite Yasu probably only being responsible for Legend and Turn. But whatevs.
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Old 2011-08-08, 01:54   Link #23687
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So I reviewed some of ep 4 today, looking for info or hints on the message bottles. And I found something relevant (not that it's really subtle, I had just forgotten the details).

The thing I'm talking about is the letters to Kumasawa's son and Nanjo's son, and Ange (?).
Spoiler for re-summarizing the basic facts about the letters:
Anyway, the October 3rd postdate suggests the prediction of some kind of incident on Oct. 4-5th, which also lends a great deal of weight to the argument that the bottle-stories were also written pre-event.

The bottle-stories were written to hide the true culprit. Why? Because the writer is the culprit.

Which to me sounds like "Yasu is the culprit" is correct. It seems like the simplest solution... maybe I need more love?

But, you know what? If you accept that the bottle stories were written by Yasu and before the Rokkenjima incident, but also think that she wasn't the culprit, then what the hell was the she doing!? Rather than writing ghost stories, shouldn't she have spent her energies trying to stop the crime!? It shouldn't be too hard. For one, Yasu has GENSAWAJO to help. And you know what? Assuming the clock-switch exists in the first place, then wouldn't it have been prudent of Yasu to have disarmed the explosives, or at least hide the fact that the switch exists? The same goes for any weapons on the island; Yasu would know of them.

Yasu is the culprit. But the culprit cannot be Yasu; she is no culprit.

So. What's the answer then?
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Old 2011-08-08, 02:05   Link #23688
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Yasu's thinking is preoccupied with throwing up her hands in futility and leading things up to the roulette of fate. She has consistently and frequently neglected to use the resources available to her to accomplish her goals because of inner insecurities and self-defeatism, such as her refusal to contact Battler over his disappearance because of her insistence that she has no place doing such a thing. It is completely consistent with Yasu's character to just give up on attempting to stop a tragedy she saw coming for whatever reason, and set up a bit mess of a gambit for someone to figure things out afterwards and reveal the truth. If the culprit is Battler or George, all the more reason.
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Old 2011-08-08, 02:18   Link #23689
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So, Yasu is incompetent.

Wait. That means Yasu is Battler...

Oh. It must be MPD.
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Old 2011-08-08, 02:32   Link #23690
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Nah.

Even if they're both incompetent, Battler atleast tries, and never gives up, and doesn't leave things up to fate. They are literary foils, and have been ever since Beatrice was introduced as a character.
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Old 2011-08-08, 02:45   Link #23691
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I still say it's MPD.
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Old 2011-08-08, 04:39   Link #23692
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*twitch*

Let's Not.

Let's really...really...really not.
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Old 2011-08-08, 08:42   Link #23693
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Yasu is the culprit. But the culprit cannot be Yasu; she is no culprit.

So. What's the answer then?
I thought about this some more, read through different theories, thought again, threw some things out of the window and tried to put something together.

After Yasu obtained the gold and the explosives she became the Golden and Endless Witch respectively. With that "magical power" she thought to have gained the possibilities to construct a plan to grant her that miracle she wanted to obtain, Battlers return.
Had Yasu never obtained control over the hidden room, she would have never become a true witch and the plan for the witchs serial murder case would have never been born. That was Lion's world, as he had not yet inherited Kinz˘s fortune.

As we learned throughout the story "As she was unable to decide her own fate, she left everything to the roulette [of fate]. She followed that, she bowed to her own rules and she would absolutely keep her promises." (EP7).
She even promised in her letter which she send to the family, that once somebody found the gold, she would stop her plan immediatly. That is because in that moment she looses everything, including the magical power (the bomb) and the magical rights (the gold) she needs to create the witchs illusion. In that moment she lays Beatrice to rest: "...Beatrice is already dead. It was not them who killed her. Bowing to fate...it was I who killed her on my own. Without them ever knowing...forever." (EP7).
She even brings it up again and again during the first four Episodes that "I keep my promises".

And why did she create the plan in the first place? She created the whole plan of the witchs serial murder case, because she learned of Battler's return and wanted him to remember his promise and his sin.
Everything pointed towards him having forgotten about her completely, but a part of her wanted him to remember and if he does not remember he should at least suffer eternaly (as indicated in the lyrics of TSUBASA). She was sure that there was only one person who would see through her plan of a "witchs serial murder case" and that was her beloved Battler with whom she shared so many thoughts about mystery literature.
Having gained the magical powers to to so, she created all those plans how she could make him remember who she is. At least three of them she threw into the ocean before the conference started in case he really should not remember, only two of those plans ever reached the shore. In those plans she constructed endless possibilities of how she could conduct such a murder case. Just like she said about Marias dream in EP4, in which she imagined the countless ways to murder and torture her mother, this is the sweet and wonderful world of witches.

This child can gain nothing at all from anybody solving the epitaph.
Her goal is not to create fear. And this is not meant to take revenge on anyone.
Beato is not commiting murder out of pleasure.

Virgilia actually said the truth, because the goal behind her plan was to make Battler remember and stop her. She knew what she did was terrible, in the finale of EP4 all those murderous plans became spikes that pierced and tortured her, but the only one who could grant her release was Battler. "Please make me die..." is not only Beato begging to him, but also Yasu who wants to be free of all that guilt.

She was not sure if it was in Battler's immediate power and that is why she made her stories as vile as possible and the Battler within her stories as incompetent as possible. She wanted him to have the necessary energy to expose her to the world and by that remembering what he had done.
Because she feared that maybe she would actually succeed like she imagined and Battler might really be incompetent or unable to remember, she send her letters out into the world.
She also sent letters including the keycards to the families involved. This was not bribe nor an immediate excuse, it was her last will and testament. Whoever survived or whoever was involved, she had no longer any needs for money. She planned to vanish together with her plan on one way or the other. "I have no need for money in death [...] Therefore, if none of you had been able to solve the riddle and it would have advanced to the 9th twilight ... I planned to commit suicide alongside of you." and I think considering what she wrote in both Legend and Turn we can believe that.

But it probably never came to that, because as already said, once the gold is found she looses all rights to be the golden witch and therefore all rights to go on with her plan. She looses her chance to make Battler remember forever and on top of that she has to witness how somebody takes the opportunity and murders. This is what we see in EP3, she looses her magical powers but she does not want to give up, she wants to convince the new golden witch (whoever she is) to go on with the witchs serial murder...that way maybe Battler would notice.
In reality there never was a witchs serial murder case, as shown in the EP7 Tea Party. Eva and probably other people alongside her solved the epitaph, stopped the plan but did not stop the idea of murder.
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Old 2011-08-08, 08:45   Link #23694
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I still think too highly of most of the parents to believe that they're actually capable of murder. They're greedy people, yes, and to some extent not good people, but in almost all the stories they're shown rising to the occasion rather than falling into the abyss. How can we reconcile that behavior with "oh and if they find the gold they think nothing of murdering their own family lol and I guess once they do that they might as well kill everybody else because what the hey, right?"
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This story is a redacted confession.

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Old 2011-08-08, 09:25   Link #23695
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I still think too highly of most of the parents to believe that they're actually capable of murder. They're greedy people, yes, and to some extent not good people, but in almost all the stories they're shown rising to the occasion rather than falling into the abyss. How can we reconcile that behavior with "oh and if they find the gold they think nothing of murdering their own family lol and I guess once they do that they might as well kill everybody else because what the hey, right?"
And that is the problem that was one of the central parts of Umineko. Beatrice said it, even Erika said it, in order to solve a murder case we have to doubt somebody. When people are killed, not everybody can be innocent.

But who says anything about mass murder? The EP7 Tea party showed it to us, even EP3 showed it even in a smaller way through Rosa's death. This is not about the adults becoming bloodthirsty monsters once they lay eyes on the gold...it is about people being unable to work together and through that causing an accident that piles corpse on corpse on corpse.
Maybe it was Eva who accidently shot Rosa, maybe Natsuhi accidently shot Hideyoshi, maybe Krauss accidently shot Rudolph, we will never know 100% how the events came down that day. But both Rosas death in EP3 and the murderous storm in the dining room in EP4 imply that it was not planned, calculated murder, but an accident that lead to somebody thinking they had no other choice.

Eva was not killed, so the murderer was either not competent enough to kill her or didn't even want to do so. We were also never shown if Nanj˘, Kumasawa, Genji or Gohda were actually killed by Kyrie or Rudolph, were we?
But Battler says it in the dialogue during epilogue of EP8 when he's with Beato/Yasu in the underground harbour:
"...I cannot live. I have commited uncountable sins in uncountable worlds. The number of lives I took, of sins I commited is too great."
"You have not commited one crime at all in our world!"
Which is indicative of Yasu actually not killing anybody in the real world.

And therefore we also can assume that nobody killed Yasu. Because she helped Battler escape in the end. Like T˘ya said: "I was told that it was an underground tunnel which lead to a hidden mansion on the other side of the island. ...but it didn't lead to Kuwadorian and so we fled to an underground harbour.".
I'm not saying that the whole sequence with Battler and Beato escaping is true, but I think they escaped to that place. But Battler probably never asked her to come with him, as he said "I escaped with the boat"...not "we".

I assume that this epilogue of EP8 is actually written by Ikuko. We have that scene where she casts the golden rose out unto the sea like on a funeral. She probably had ideas about the actual fate of Yasu and wanted them to at least be together in fiction. That is why the Battler in that scene has knowledge about Yasu's "crimes" and the several worlds. It is a future beyond EP5 and EP7.
Like it was said in Ep7: "This is a pitiful witch who finished her life after...no matter how many years had passed after her death...had not been understood by the man she wanted to be understood by the most...somebody should forgive her. At the end of the 5th game Battler finally had understood...but it was already too late, he did not make it. That is why Battler cannot save her, who is alive here and now. That is why Battler is not present at Beatrices funeral. He doesn't come. ...he doesn't make it.".
And that is why, when Battler dives into the ocean after Beato in the end of EP8 it says: "Battler immediatly dove into the ocean. That is why he made it. Because he could still see the outlines of the witch, he made it.".

This is a scene that never happened and which is why the Battler in T˘ya is still tormenting himself. He was too late, he didn't get the first signs which he should have...and that is why Ikuko is granting him that epilogue in which he can save the woman he loves.
What that implies for the truth? I think Beato/Yasu did what she implied when saying "I cannot leave with you...I am the master of this Golden Land. I cannot leave here." (EP8). She goes back and ends, together with the others in the explosion. Maybe Genji actually did stay with her...maybe he was already killed.
The important thing is, Yasu felt so guilty about what she had done, she took that cross and ended with what she started.

Last edited by haguruma; 2011-08-08 at 09:50.
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Old 2011-08-08, 16:10   Link #23696
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Quote:
After Yasu obtained the gold and the explosives she became the Golden and Endless Witch respectively. With that "magical power" she thought to have gained the possibilities to construct a plan to grant her that miracle she wanted to obtain, Battlers return.
Yasu actually announced herself as the Endless Witch once she became Beatrice.

Quote:
I'm not saying that the whole sequence with Battler and Beato escaping is true, but I think they escaped to that place. But Battler probably never asked her to come with him, as he said "I escaped with the boat"...not "we".
There are some people that speculate that the Beato in that sequence is a delusion.
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Old 2011-08-08, 16:24   Link #23697
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Yasu actually announced herself as the Endless Witch once she became Beatrice.
Well, actually it was explained that an Endless Witch becomes Endless by endulging herself in magic so deep and so often, that the concept of an "end" becomes unimportant to her. Part of that power are being able to repeat things endlessly...only that Beatrice's power is always described as having the power to kill and revive endlessly.
So yes, she announced herself the Endless Witch. But it was only due to her decisions and her circumstances that she was able to become it due to endlessly thinking up fictions.

Quote:
There are some people that speculate that the Beato in that sequence is a delusion.
I don't know if you continued reading or not, but if you did, you know what I think about that part.
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Old 2011-08-08, 19:09   Link #23698
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I know, I'm just chipping in about the Beato-Delusion part. It's not entirely clear in the reading if you were aware of that theory or not.
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Old 2011-08-08, 19:31   Link #23699
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I know, I'm just chipping in about the Beato-Delusion part. It's not entirely clear in the reading if you were aware of that theory or not.
Yes, it's quite clear that if that scene actually happened then Beato clearly must have been an illusion. If she actually would have wanted to leave the island just one minute she could have just stopped the explosion or something else in the first place.
But it doesn't really matter wether it was an illusion or an add-on story by Ikuko, it probably did not happen in reality, because it more or less fullfills what was implied to never have happened.
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Old 2011-08-09, 13:40   Link #23700
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I still think too highly of most of the parents to believe that they're actually capable of murder. They're greedy people, yes, and to some extent not good people, but in almost all the stories they're shown rising to the occasion rather than falling into the abyss.
How about self defense though? I figured that they would kill if they thought their family or they themselves would be in danger...
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