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Old 2011-08-09, 14:28   Link #23701
Renall
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Somebody has to start it, obviously. That person would be culpable. I find it somewhat unlikely sixteen or so people would dwindle down to almost nothing due to a string of self defense killings.

Not that it wouldn't be great as a dark comedy forgery.
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Old 2011-08-09, 14:44   Link #23702
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I think it would be incredibly fitting if that was the truth. Everyone misunderstood everything and it was just a clusterfuck of errors.

But then I think it would've been funny if lightning struck the highly combustible manure Kanon laid down and set off the bombs.
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Old 2011-08-09, 15:45   Link #23703
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
I still say it's MPD.
You reminded me of a funny conversation we had. http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...98#post3325498 You can thank me later... >.>
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Old 2011-08-09, 16:16   Link #23704
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Oh shit man, that was hilarious.

Man I'm so sad Umineko is over.
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Old 2011-08-09, 16:18   Link #23705
Cao Ni Ma
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
I think it would be incredibly fitting if that was the truth. Everyone misunderstood everything and it was just a clusterfuck of errors.

But then I think it would've been funny if lightning struck the highly combustible manure Kanon laid down and set off the bombs.
All the killings where a series of improbable and hilarious accidents caused by a servant with the worst luck.
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Old 2011-08-09, 16:31   Link #23706
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Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma View Post
All the killings where a series of improbable and hilarious accidents caused by a servant with the worst luck.
I continue to maintain that this is the most rational explanation for ep2.
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Old 2011-08-09, 16:46   Link #23707
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
I continue to maintain that this is the most rational explanation for ep2.
Care to elaborate or link me to the thread? I sense lulz.
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Old 2011-08-09, 16:52   Link #23708
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
I think it would be incredibly fitting if that was the truth. Everyone misunderstood everything and it was just a clusterfuck of errors.

But then I think it would've been funny if lightning struck the highly combustible manure Kanon laid down and set off the bombs.
Or it would've been funny if the EP 7 narrative was correct, and upon selecting the wrong I, a mechanism in the chapel set off the bomb to the island simply because the siblings selected the wrong I in the process.
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Old 2011-08-09, 18:22   Link #23709
ErenselTheJester
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So... are we under the impression that Umineko might have a simpler answer than we are lead to believe?

EDIT: Now, that I think about it. I'm starting to have doubts about Yasu's existence, or at least her role in the incident. If I assume she's the culprit, then things will fit nicely together. On the other hand, if I assume she has nothing to do with the murders directly, then my question becomes what does she do? Shannon and Kanon have taken their role as victims in the murder, so is it that she only takes up their role just to kill them off?

Last edited by ErenselTheJester; 2011-08-09 at 18:41.
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Old 2011-08-09, 20:15   Link #23710
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...Er...Yasu is the existence that binds Shannon and Kanon as the same character, and even if she's not the culprit, it's her unrequited feelings for Battler that cause the incident to go off.
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Old 2011-08-09, 23:26   Link #23711
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Somebody has to start it, obviously. That person would be culpable. I find it somewhat unlikely sixteen or so people would dwindle down to almost nothing due to a string of self defense killings.
I think that's the most likely scenario for what happens afterwards. Yasu could have even killed herself early but because she's set up enough 'problems' and 'suspicions,' everyone else will start killing. I don't think she did though, but the siblilngs causing extraneous murders would've been enough of a disruption in clues to cause us problems.

Mind you, I don't REALLY think the siblings of Rokkenjima Prime would have as that's not what I figure real people would do. I just think it's justification enough for someone to write a story where most of everyone ends up being murdered besides the bomb.


Sorta like, I don't believe that you would *really* be lucky to meet your childhood girl of your dreams again many years later in life by accident on the street in real life, but it's justifiable in a novel if circumstances were set up accordingly...
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Old 2011-08-10, 07:10   Link #23712
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So, I was reading a few older parts of this thread to get myself more up to speed. And I found myself interested in how about a month ago there was a discussion on interpreting episode 5, End of the Golden Witch, which, because of certain anomalies, there seems to be some difficulty with.

So, here's my interpretation.

First we have the new players for End; it's hard to say what exactly Bern and Lambda represent (that's a matter of debate that goes beyond the scope of what I would like to discuss in this post), but it's natural to think that the way they use their "pieces" will be different from what we see in Beato's and Battler's episodes. And then we have Erika. She represents a new, cold and competent approach to figuring out the one truth truth she's looking for.

We also have these new pace-changers:
-Shannon and Kanon can appear together even in front of Battler, Erika, or whoever
-Beatrice's new role is as Natsuhi's ally employed to hide Kinzo's death
-The "Man from 19 years ago"
-The epitaph is solved and announced, yet there are still murders

Which can all be explained simply by saying that Yasu is being represented inaccurately. Just as Erika constructed a Natsuhi culprit scenario purely with circumstantial evidence, so was Yasu's character victimized in the same way. Basically, Yasu's heart was ignored in this story (although her existence was not). The story was predicated on a certain interpretation of a set of new facts, namely that Natsuhi rejected the baby Yasu and that Yasu actually survived (as the MF19YO); and based on this circumstantial evidence the author imagined that Yasu hated Natsuhi and plotted to frame her for murder of her own family. Thus, Yasu is the culprit but, Beatrice and the epitaph are disassociated from Yasu, and the ShKanon-is-one-person hint/message disappears as well.

So, Bern was setting up Natsuhi as the villain, while Lambda was setting up Yasu as the villain. And in both cases they completely mischaracterized them in the process.
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Old 2011-08-10, 08:06   Link #23713
Cao Ni Ma
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From what I understand you are saying that Yasu exists as a separate entity in the island? It works in solving the actual crimes but it was stated that there aren't any additional characters added to the field other than Erika.

I have a lot of issues with EP5, specifically hideyoshi's murder and the fact that its never brought back into the discussion. Was he actually murdered? If he was it couldnt have been suicide cause there was a big ol stake in his back. (Hilarious accident theory?), Shannon/Kanon and everyone else other than Natsuhi where chilling out in the parlor. If we actually believe the witnesses the chain was placed on the door so the culprit had to be inside the room. So the person was hiding under the bed or something?

What pisses me off is that the plot goes "Weeeeeelp I know you have issues with this scene but look at me hand waving it booosh its gone!" So what I believe, if Hideyoshi was actually murdered, Yasu doesnt exist in the world as a separate being and we are to trust the witnesses that the chain was placed then the culprit had to be one of the original 5 that "died" early in the game. The person had to have enough physical strength to overwhelm Hideyoshi and shouldn't be bothered by murdering him.
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Old 2011-08-10, 14:38   Link #23714
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Quote:
From what I understand you are saying that Yasu exists as a separate entity in the island? It works in solving the actual crimes but it was stated that there aren't any additional characters added to the field other than Erika.
If Shannon and Kanon are still being counted as one person, that leaves a hole for TMF19YO.
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Old 2011-08-10, 15:06   Link #23715
Cao Ni Ma
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
If Shannon and Kanon are still being counted as one person, that leaves a hole for TMF19YO.
Shannon and Kanon pop up in front of Erika during the Hideyoshi investigation scene. She literally responds to one of them after Kanon makes a remark. Unless one of them (in this case Shannon) isnt really there and is an illusion in which case everyone else would have seen it as suspicious.
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Old 2011-08-10, 15:32   Link #23716
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma View Post
Shannon and Kanon pop up in front of Erika during the Hideyoshi investigation scene. She literally responds to one of them after Kanon makes a remark. Unless one of them (in this case Shannon) isnt really there and is an illusion in which case everyone else would have seen it as suspicious.
Every scene where Shannon and Kanon are seen together in episode 5 has an unreliable narrator. There are almost no scenes in the episode where Erika narrates and we never see her point of view. The only time she ever mentions Kanon in her own narration is when she says she apparently heard Kanon was hiding behind Gohda or something. But she never actually sees anything that suggests shannon and kanon are separate people.
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Old 2011-08-10, 15:34   Link #23717
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
If Shannon and Kanon are still being counted as one person, that leaves a hole for TMF19YO.
And, while I know it actually should be impossible unless we doubt the Knox Rules, Erika is also quite suspicious in that very scene. Gohda is the one who claims that there was nobody in that room and that he cut the chain, but he is stuttering like he normally does when he is suspected to lie.
And in the moment Battler says they should investigate the bathroom to see if somebody possibly crawled through a space in the ceiling. Erika drops into the conversation and says that there is no need as she just checked that, while peeking in from the corridor.

She couldn't be the culprit, because she has her detective proclamation intact at this point...but maybe we could include her into thinking wether this locked room situation was staged in any way...
Well, we could also start from the very point that she wasn't present when "everybody" arrived at the room...therefore the definition of everybody is unsure as well.
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Old 2011-08-10, 15:57   Link #23718
AuraTwilight
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She couldn't be the culprit, because she has her detective proclamation intact at this point...but maybe we could include her into thinking wether this locked room situation was staged in any way...
There's absolutely no rules against a Detective staging a Locked Room in order to trap the suspect; but the reader has to be in on it.
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Old 2011-08-10, 16:01   Link #23719
Renall
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If Natsuhi was ordered into that room at any point, clearly someone was framing her.
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Old 2011-08-10, 16:16   Link #23720
AuraTwilight
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The MF19YO, yea. But is there anything to suggest that Erika is collaborating with them? She never acknowledges his presence in the story in any way.
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