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Old 2011-08-10, 16:16   Link #23721
Wanderer
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Hideyoshi's death in End really feels like a fake. In any case we all know it was a setup of some kind; unlike the previous episodes where the crimes were designed to verify a witch's existence, this time the crimes were designed to make Natsuhi look like the culprit.

I'm going to assume that with the exception of scenes where she talks to Kinzo or Beatrice, Natsuhi's viewpoint in End is reliable. In order for the murder to be real, somebody who had hidden in the room before Natsuhi, appeared, was noticed by Hideyoshi, yet unrecognized by him, overwhelmed him in a struggle, and somehow killed him by stabbing him in the back with a letter-opener. Then this person would have to have hid under the bed. Not to mention that Eva happened to show up right as the struggle was starting and was the first person to mess with the corpse. Only Eva and Nanjo even checked him; Erika certainly did not, and even said she had no interest in it. What a shitty detective! Erika was wrong about the murders. She probably even knew she's wrong, but we know she doesn't care whether she's right or wrong, just that people accept her as right. In fact, it's obvious that she was out to get Natsuhi from the beginning, since she went out of her way (to say the least!) to construct alibis for everyone but Natsuhi.

And Hideyoshi's death was never proclaimed in red at all. The deaths of the other 6 were, but that's only valid for 24:00 on the second day.

It's very plausible that the crimes were all fakes set up by a coalition among the adults (as well as others perhaps) to frame Natsuhi from the beginning; after all, they were already out to get her for hiding Kinzo's death. Perhaps it was all just a plot get her to confess he was dead. Erika never checks corpses because she knows they are fake.

Meanwhile vengeful-Yasu may have been actually killing the missing people. After all, Bern said that Krauss died shortly after Natsuhi heard from him on the phone.
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Old 2011-08-10, 17:47   Link #23722
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I'd argue Hideyoshi's actions and how things turn out afterward make it ridiculously unlikely that anyone was actually in the room with Hideyoshi (other than Natsuhi). If he struggled with someone, it's awfully convenient that Natsuhi never saw this person, nor did anyone else.
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Old 2011-08-10, 19:26   Link #23723
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Oh dear, we're back to EP5.

Spoiler for Why can Erika see all 5 servants?:


Also, we're putting alot of weight on Natsuhi being in the guest room closet - I agree with mose that Natsuhi's EP5 perspective is mostly reliable, but unless I forgot something, there's no concrete proof that Natsuhi was really in that closet, and that she was presented as being there on the writer's whim, to make a fantasy out of a mundane scene. After all, the narrative does rather set up Natsuhi on a platter, despite a guarantee in red that she's not the culprit.
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Old 2011-08-11, 06:15   Link #23724
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Soooo I still think EP5 was written with Shannon and Kanon as two living, breathing, physically separate people [/SPOILER]
I would even argue that within the stories Shannon and Kanon are always two seperate beings. I'd say that because for me Umineko can be divided into those "worlds".

The real world of the reader (where Ryűkishi is writing the story)
|
The real world within Umineko (where Ange, T˘ya and Yasu exist)
|
The world of the stories of Yasu and T˘ya (where reality and fiction coexist)
|
The reality that is hidden within the stories (that which Yasu wanted to be found out)
|
The meta world (where the thoughts of people become real)

While these worlds are connected, they are not necessarily synonymous with each other.

In the real world for example Yasu existed, but probably not Shannon and Kanon as individual people which were made to live through individual daily cycles. If anything they were probably ideas in her head to entertain her.
Within her stories she made those two into individual people, just like she made the witch Beatrice come to the island in Turn or how T˘ya made Kinz˘ appear in the dining room in Alliance. But she also inserted enough hints to ensure that somebody could assume that something is off with those two:
  • Shannon and Kanon only possess half a soul
  • The butterfly pin Shannon receives from Beatrice is broken in two when Kanon refuses to go along with both their ideas
  • Shannon and Kanon never appear to Battler at the same time
  • When Shannon dies Kanon is bound to vanish as well
  • There is never a corpse of Kanon
  • Kanon and Shannon can be revived by Beatrice

From these we can start to assume that them being two different people is as much fiction as goats overrunning the rosegarden, Erika arriving at the island or the adults emerging from a well that is sealed with an iron grid. It is something we see in the fictional world of the stories, but it is not the reality that Yasu wanted Battler to see within her first two stories.
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Old 2011-08-11, 12:59   Link #23725
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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
[*]Shannon and Kanon never appear to Battler at the same time
Except in episode 5. Now why is that?
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Old 2011-08-11, 13:35   Link #23726
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Well for one thing Battler doesn't have a reliable viewpoint in that episode.
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Old 2011-08-11, 16:23   Link #23727
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Well for one thing Battler doesn't have a reliable viewpoint in that episode.
And it was not written (the story within the story) with the knowledge of Shkannon in mind.
We have to assume that T˘ya still had no knowledge of that plot device when he wrote End of the Golden Witch, as in the end of Alliance Battler is still startled by the fact that Kanon vanishes everytime. While the part within him (Beatrice/Battler's loving memory of Yasu) that wanted to conceal this was well aware of that fact, the part of him that wanted to find out the truth (Meta-Battler of EP1-5) was oblivious to this.
In EP3 it is written in a way as if the parents found Kanon in the church, which cannot be if Shkannon is also a fictional fact as Shannon would have to run like hell from the parlour to fool them...or it would imply that all of the parents who went to the church were lying and in on the game of the witch.
In EP4 all the parents witness both Kanon and Shannon at the same time and even see them comitting actions at the same time.

While all of them leave room to assume the Shkannon theory there is a small difference between how Legend and Turn handle Shkannon and how it is done in Banquet and Alliance. I think the differences are held small because the reader is still in the clue-searching phase...and Ryűkishi admitted that he made his riddles easier after he thought that many people weren't getting there after Turn.
He definitely upped that scale with End (which was justified in the narrative by Lambda taking over the game) but I would say it was a very abrupt jump. Maybe he wanted to test us and see if we would switch positions midway just because he made the riddle a little less obvious.
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Old 2011-08-11, 17:41   Link #23728
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Now, pardon me for not remembering, but when you guys say ''Didn't appear near Battler at the same time'', do you mean that Battler acknowledged them both in a physical manner at the same time?

Because, if he didn't, by that logic, the seven sisters of purgatory appeared before Ange's classmates.

Most scenes I see Kanon in with multiple witnesses, he talks but his voice is usually not heard(well, you have to decide which one is the delusion in the scene), sort of like when Ange was being made to read that bullcrap her classmates made her read, they were yelling at her classmates. I haven't rechecked EVERY scene however.


By the way, is it possible that Eva hired bodyguards for Ange because she was truly worried someone was still out there trying to kill her, and Ange just interpreted it as something done out of complete hatred for her?

Also, another weird thing I noticed(I read a bit more of Episode 2), this can probably be brushed off a number of ways, but when the door to the chapel is opened and all the dead bodies are discovered, Shannon goes ''Krauss-sama!'', doesn't really say anything else other than that.
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Old 2011-08-11, 18:54   Link #23729
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Quote:
Now, pardon me for not remembering, but when you guys say ''Didn't appear near Battler at the same time'', do you mean that Battler acknowledged them both in a physical manner at the same time?

Because, if he didn't, by that logic, the seven sisters of purgatory appeared before Ange's classmates.

Most scenes I see Kanon in with multiple witnesses, he talks but his voice is usually not heard(well, you have to decide which one is the delusion in the scene), sort of like when Ange was being made to read that bullcrap her classmates made her read, they were yelling at her classmates. I haven't rechecked EVERY scene however.
I don't understand what you're going on about. Battler never acknowledges the two of them simultaneously when he has a Reliable viewpoint, and Ange has NEVER had a reliable viewpoint since she pretends to talk to magic fantasy moeblobs.

Multiple witnesses don't mean anything if none of those witnesses are reliable.

Quote:
By the way, is it possible that Eva hired bodyguards for Ange because she was truly worried someone was still out there trying to kill her, and Ange just interpreted it as something done out of complete hatred for her?
I nearly guarantee it. Especially if Battler theory is hilariously truee.
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Old 2011-08-11, 19:00   Link #23730
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Originally Posted by cronnoponno View Post
Now, pardon me for not remembering, but when you guys say ''Didn't appear near Battler at the same time'', do you mean that Battler acknowledged them both in a physical manner at the same time?
Well, in all of episodes 1-4 not even once are Battler, Kanon, and Shannon all in the same room at the same time. But, in episode 5 it's suddenly happening all the time.

Although for episode 5 I don't remember who acknowledges who that well. But even so, the sudden shift in the (apparent) rules that dictate where these characters are allowed to appear is quite stark.

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Originally Posted by cronnoponno View Post
Because, if he didn't, by that logic, the seven sisters of purgatory appeared before Ange's classmates.

Most scenes I see Kanon in with multiple witnesses, he talks but his voice is usually not heard(well, you have to decide which one is the delusion in the scene), sort of like when Ange was being made to read that bullcrap her classmates made her read, they were yelling at her classmates. I haven't rechecked EVERY scene however.
Is that so? Just off the top of my head I can remember that he is the focus of attention for quite a few people, including Battler, when he is introduced in episode 1.

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
And it was not written (the story within the story) with the knowledge of Shkannon in mind.
We have to assume that T˘ya still had no knowledge of that plot device when he wrote End of the Golden Witch, as in the end of Alliance Battler is still startled by the fact that Kanon vanishes everytime. While the part within him (Beatrice/Battler's loving memory of Yasu) that wanted to conceal this was well aware of that fact, the part of him that wanted to find out the truth (Meta-Battler of EP1-5) was oblivious to this.
So you're saying that Tooya is unconsciously writing Banquet and Alliance to be ShKanon-compatible stories? Until he stops at End for some reason? It seems weird that he would do this.

What I think I have been trying to say all along is that perhaps we can interpret the situation this way: End was written by someone different from the writer of Banquet and Alliance, whose understanding of the game is lacking somehow, or just plain different. I haven't gotten to the end of Twilight yet myself, but could it be a switch in authorship between Tooya and Ikuko? And how well did Twilight confirm that Tooya/Ikuko wrote Banquet and Alliance in the first place?

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
In EP3 it is written in a way as if the parents found Kanon in the church, which cannot be if Shkannon is also a fictional fact as Shannon would have to run like hell from the parlour to fool them...or it would imply that all of the parents who went to the church were lying and in on the game of the witch. In EP4 all the parents witness both Kanon and Shannon at the same time and even see them comitting actions at the same time.
As for witnesses, especially in Alliance... yeah we all know how reliable that is. They all saw Kinzo too. Heck, most of the Alliance narrative is completely bogus; the entire escape from the Kuwadorian dungeon is fiction, and I don't just mean magically embellished fiction, but factually incorrect fiction; they were never even in the Kuwadorian.

And a side note about Alliance that I have been thinking about:
Since nearly all of Battler's info in Alliance comes over the phone, the episode becomes pretty simple if you just hand wave the flag that Yasu is exceptionally talented at imitating voices. Evidence: Yasu already has a Kanon voice, a Shannon voice, probably a Beatrice voice, and maybe a "man from 19 years ago" voice. The only new voices she'd have to imitate are Kyrie's (for sure), Krauss's (maybe), and Jessica's (maybe).

Quote:
Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
While all of them leave room to assume the Shkannon theory there is a small difference between how Legend and Turn handle Shkannon and how it is done in Banquet and Alliance. I think the differences are held small because the reader is still in the clue-searching phase...and Ryűkishi admitted that he made his riddles easier after he thought that many people weren't getting there after Turn.
Legend has no hints about ShKanon (whatsoever as far as I can remember). Shannon and Kanon never appear together in front of Battler, true, but since Shannon "dies" so early I would call it such a reasonable coincidence that it doesn't qualify as a hint. Actually, I would even say that ShKanon makes Legend more complicated. It's easier if it's just Kanon as the culprit, and requires far fewer people being accomplices. ShKanon is hinted in the other episodes, though; especially in Turn.

Actually, the way I would categorically separate the first four episodes is Legend on the one side and Turn, Banquet, and Alliance on the other. Here's my reasons:

Legend has practically no magic and what little it does is vague and abstract. Turn, Banquet, and Alliance have lots of magic.

Legend pays nearly no attention to KanonxJessica (there's just one vague line at Kanon's death scene). Turn, Banquet, and Alliance have lots of KanonxJessica themes.

Legend has no red text or meta-world discussions until the tea party.

Legend has no hints about ShKanon (see above).

If it wasn't outright told to me otherwise (which it was), I would think all four episodes were written by the same person, or maybe even all different people. Or something. I just don't see enough reason to think that they were split as Legend/Turn and Banquet/Alliance.

I think part of the problem is that RK07 abandoned Land, which was supposed to have been written by Yasu; it disrupted Umineko's originally intended rhythm.

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
He definitely upped that scale with End (which was justified in the narrative by Lambda taking over the game) but I would say it was a very abrupt jump. Maybe he wanted to test us and see if we would switch positions midway just because he made the riddle a little less obvious.
Yeah. RK07 loves to throw you lots of gigantic red herrings. Not a fan of that.
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Old 2011-08-11, 19:08   Link #23731
Renall
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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
I would even argue that within the stories Shannon and Kanon are always two seperate beings. I'd say that because for me Umineko can be divided into those "worlds".
This is basically the Fictional Shkanon theory. I think it makes the most sense, but I don't think it's provable. Or disprovable. Or much of anything really.
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Well for one thing Battler doesn't have a reliable viewpoint in that episode.
So when did "lacks a reliable viewpoint" = "nothing seen can be trusted" again? Hell, in End itself we have Natsuhi who appears to be reliable even though her viewpoint is absolutely not something people would call reliable or sensible or whatever you want to call it.

It's possible his unreliable viewpoint - well, let's call it not-verifiably-reliable because there's no evidence it ought to be treated as unreliable in this case - means something before him (such as Shannon and Kanon together in one place) was mispresented by the author. Sure, we can believe that.

But... what if not? Kealym's point, that Shkanon could be false in End beause the author got it wrong, is not entirely implausible, is it? If it's (incorrectly) false in End, you're basically being told "this isn't why it's happening" while being shown precisely the opposite. Kinda like when you're shown Erika "proving" Natsuhi is the culprit having been told flat-out that she isn't.

It's an interesting thought at least.
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Old 2011-08-11, 19:29   Link #23732
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So when did "lacks a reliable viewpoint" = "nothing seen can be trusted" again?
I'm not saying that. What I am saying, though, is that his viewpoint can't be used as red-level evidence like before. You could include him in a Magic Scene and everything.

Anyway, I like Kealyn's idea, I'm just counterbalancing.
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Old 2011-08-11, 20:16   Link #23733
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To further elaborate what I am talking about.

I do not believe there was a scene, where Shannon and Kanon were standing next to each other, and Battler, seeing them both, in the text you read, has he talked to them both. Like ''Hey Shannon, oh, you're here too Kanon, how are you?''. What I'm saying is that, accepting Kanon being there for Battler when they're both together is the same as accepting Moeblobs yelling at Ange's classmates, if Battler makes no sense to recognize them both at the same time, then it doesn't matter if they both appear in front of Battler.


Also, I believe that Kanon was acknowledged by Battler in EP 1 because Yasu physically looks like Kanon, she just disguises as Shannon, I also believe there are some scenes where Kanon reverses the role, and Shannon is the delusion.

Sort of like if you watched the EP7 part where Shannon was helping Yasu cope with everything, I do not believe there was a single time Shannon was acknowledged as a physical person.

In EP 5, when Shannon and Kanon enter to serve Tea when the strange knock occurs, if you look at the text closely I'm pretty sure that everything(even Battler) says can be interpreted as being said to one person.

The only scenes where they were both talked to at the same time as they were standing together were with characters like Genji.

Am I making more sense?

Last edited by cronnoponno; 2011-08-11 at 20:29.
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Old 2011-08-11, 21:27   Link #23734
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
So you're saying that Tooya is unconsciously writing Banquet and Alliance to be ShKanon-compatible stories? Until he stops at End for some reason? It seems weird that he would do this.
He's not unconsciously writing the first two to fit the Shkannon theory, he merely molded them very closely after what he read in the message bottles. Naturally they would be as much Shkannon-compatible as they are incompatible...they just allow that theory.
Basically in EP1 and 2 the murders more or less center around Shkannon:
EP1: Shannon is "among the 1st twilight witnesses". Kanon is the one who discovers the crime scene of 1st and 2nd twilight. Kanon opens the room with the 2nd twilight. Kanon runs ahead to the room that holds Kinz˘'s corpse. Kanon is mysteriously never seen again after his "death".
EP2: The whole Shkannon vs. Beatrice plot.

In EP3 and 4 they are more or less removed from the active part of the plot. EP3 only makes them necessary once you include the fact that Beatrice is also a part of what they are part of. And EP4 basically makes them into nothing more than removable pawns unless you recognize that everything that happens around them is fake...and even then you have to know it's them.
Those two stories need no knowledge of Shkannon or Shkannon-culprit as all murders including their own can be solved without them being the culprit.

At End he suddenly switched perspectives...maybe because he thought the subjective, emotional perspective (Battler) he had so far was too involved and he needed an objective, rational point of view (Erika)...and that is when he ran into the problem of arriving at a dead end with the way he approached it. At the end of End he realized what the root of the problem and the solution to the mystery was and that is why he inserted Shkannon as the central device into his next story.

I think much more than him not recognizing Shkannon until that point it is much more of a stretch to believe in a reasonable explanation that explains sans-meta-world why T˘ya suddenly switched his detective.

Quote:
And how well did Twilight confirm that Tooya/Ikuko wrote Banquet and Alliance in the first place?
I think the only novels we know for sure to be written by Hachij˘ T˘ya were Alliance, Dawn and Twilight. Banquet and End were implied but never proven I think...Requiem never had Ikuko, just Bern (implied-)reading to Featherine. But whatever novels they wrote, it was always the couple Ikuko/T˘ya...maybe Ikuko added certain parts, but she only stumbled upon the "legend of the occult island" when researching for her 黒首島奇譚 on the internet and that was what triggered T˘ya's memory to return.
You could just as well make a theory that Banquet was written by Eva for example. And there is the theory that Turn was a 偽書 as well and we only ever got to read one of the message bottles...though I think it doesn't make much sense to mention two messages and only portraying one...it's overly confusing (even for Umineko).

Quote:
Legend has no hints about ShKanon (whatsoever as far as I can remember). Shannon and Kanon never appear together in front of Battler, true, but since Shannon "dies" so early I would call it such a reasonable coincidence that it doesn't qualify as a hint. Actually, I would even say that ShKanon makes Legend more complicated.
It depends on what you consider a hint and what you consider an insert that you only get when you return to it later. Actually the way the two are handled in the story is very indicative and there is also Kanon's speech in the basement where he says that he decided to go against Beatrice's roulette if Shannon should die, implying a certain bond. There are small things, but as with most things EP1 is more like a "go back to it and see how much I messed with you" story...similar to Onikakushi.

Quote:
Legend has practically no magic and what little it does is vague and abstract. Turn, Banquet, and Alliance have lots of magic.
Though it is still questionable how much of that magic is actually in the stories and how much of it was inserted by T˘ya's way of reading/imagining the stories.
I find it easier to believe that the original stories go without the over-the-top magical scenes.
If we take the Tea Party of EP1, it was just Beato's and Battler's argument that created the magical scene in which Beatrice shot the stakes of purgatory into Eva's and Hideyoshi's locked room with her magic...or if we de-metaphorize the scene, it was T˘ya thinking about what he just read and imagining what "the witch" would have done. Only from that point on did we have magical scenes.

And I still stay with my point that the fact that we were told the message bottles were written in diary style, and that they were believable except the signature being forged and their creation being dated before the incident, implies that most parts are imagined inserts created by an implied reader and not part of the actuall narrative.

It's not like Legend had no magical scenes...they just weren't marked as being magical. They were more like...delusional. There was Kinz˘ talking to people and being shown weeping and throwing his ring to Beatrice. The golden butterfly chasing Shannon and the ones appearing in the basement before Kanon. The whole scene after 24pm on the 5th/6th.
Those scenes aren't any less unreal than Beatrice storming into a room with an army of goat butlers and summoning cute girls who turn into stakes...they're just less obvious.

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
This is basically the Fictional Shkanon theory. I think it makes the most sense, but I don't think it's provable. Or disprovable. Or much of anything really.
Well, that's the problem with most if not all theories...we can't prove them one way or the other. And going by what Ryűkishi said, it's what he wanted it to be...even though it drives us crazy. Though Umineko is not the only mystery-story doing that to its readers.

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Originally Posted by cronnoponno View Post
Am I making more sense?
I think it does make sense, yes.
It's a question how you'd like to approach the stories. I only think it's difficult to say that there is never any direct mention of Kanon and Shannon being seperate even if we perceive them as such, because at some point they have to be portrayed as both being present within the stories.
But I think the fact that you are able to draw such a theory is because Shkannon is inserted in the stories, because you immediatly notice that something is off with those two.
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Old 2011-08-11, 21:29   Link #23735
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Originally Posted by cronnoponno View Post
Yasu physically looks like Kanon, she just disguises as Shannon
That idea is sorta interesting to me because the vast majority of the cast in Umineko doesn't even have a description within the narrative.

The only thing akin to that I can think of for Shannon is Battler's comment about "what do they eat on Rokkenjima?".
However Kanon has actually a physical description when Battler first sees him in ep1.

Still given the general themes of Umineko, I think everyone aknowledge Kanon and Shannon as different people so they perceive them as such as a result, akin to fantasy beings, or to how Maria recognizes "Beatrice".


On a side note, I really think everyone should drop the "provable" aspect within Umineko. Even if an entire arc was written in red or whatever and made complete logical sense out of everything, as long as a single character within the narrative gives us a hint that there's a small chance this could still be wrong, none would take it as "necessarily true" (except for the specific quotes that fits the personal theories or ... un anti-theories of each of us personally). That's sorta what Umineko ensnared us in. That's why the final question is what you want to believe as the truth and not "what is the truth".

If anything saying that "x theory" cannot be proven should be a given by now.
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Old 2011-08-11, 21:41   Link #23736
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To push the Yasunon idea further:

Kanon is the opposite of Battler's dreams, assuming Kanon is a girl, she is flat, insecure, quiet, unsociable, black haired, and black eyed. If Yasu looked like Kanon it'd be the perfect reason she tried so hard to become Beatrice, furthermore, if the culprit must be mentioned in the early part of the story, assuming Yasu-culprit is true, it could point to Kanon.If Kanon is a boy, well, all above, and he has a penis.
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Old 2011-08-11, 22:04   Link #23737
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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
I think the only novels we know for sure to be written by Hachij˘ T˘ya were Alliance, Dawn and Twilight. Banquet and End were implied but never proven I think...Requiem never had Ikuko, just Bern (implied-)reading to Featherine. But whatever novels they wrote, it was always the couple Ikuko/T˘ya...maybe Ikuko added certain parts, but she only stumbled upon the "legend of the occult island" when researching for her 黒首島奇譚 on the internet and that was what triggered T˘ya's memory to return.
You could just as well make a theory that Banquet was written by Eva for example. And there is the theory that Turn was a 偽書 as well and we only ever got to read one of the message bottles...though I think it doesn't make much sense to mention two messages and only portraying one...it's overly confusing (even for Umineko).
I see. Well, I like what you're reporting.

I have had the idea that End was not written by whoever meta-Battler or meta-Beatrice represent (as the meta-world depicts both of them as not having anything to do with the story's telling), but rather End represents a 3rd-party's interpretation, like the public's interpretation in general. And this is why it's so different.

I also like the idea that Eva, or maybe someone else (Ange?), wrote Banquet. I always thought it was strange that Eva lived in Banquet but not in Alliance.

And on the other hand it makes plenty of sense to me that Tooya wrote Alliance, Dawn, and Twilight.
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Old 2011-08-11, 23:31   Link #23738
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
I see. Well, I like what you're reporting.

I have had the idea that End was not written by whoever meta-Battler or meta-Beatrice represent (as the meta-world depicts both of them as not having anything to do with the story's telling), but rather End represents a 3rd-party's interpretation, like the public's interpretation in general. And this is why it's so different.

I also like the idea that Eva, or maybe someone else (Ange?), wrote Banquet. I always thought it was strange that Eva lived in Banquet but not in Alliance.

And on the other hand it makes plenty of sense to me that Tooya wrote Alliance, Dawn, and Twilight.
So, we have at least three different perspectives. I guess what this means is that each perspective holds a certain amount of truth to it. I'm also getting that feeling that this is all just a metaphor for what Ryukishi has been saying all along, we all have different perspectives on the story and that, in itself, allows us to win because there is no right or wrong answer. Sure, it leads most of us unsatified since we don't get straight- up answers but I guess the victory comes from the fact that we are able to make up our assumptions without them. Which leads into the different kinds of detectives we have- Battler, Erika, and Will- and their respective styles and viewpoints. So, I guess our primary goal in this adventure would be to decided which side we take, then we can see where that road takes us and try a different perspective when we reach a dead end. So I guess when it comes to Shkannon, it's one those "doesn't matter which side you take, as long as you find an answer" kind of deals and that we can solve the story with or without it.
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Old 2011-08-12, 00:31   Link #23739
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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
On a side note, I really think everyone should drop the "provable" aspect within Umineko. Even if an entire arc was written in red or whatever and made complete logical sense out of everything, as long as a single character within the narrative gives us a hint that there's a small chance this could still be wrong, none would take it as "necessarily true" (except for the specific quotes that fits the personal theories or ... un anti-theories of each of us personally). That's sorta what Umineko ensnared us in. That's why the final question is what you want to believe as the truth and not "what is the truth".

If anything saying that "x theory" cannot be proven should be a given by now.
It's important to know the limitations of what is, or might be, provable in a given part of Umineko, however. For example if we discuss the information people should have in R-Prime, we can't prove they have that information, but we can "prove" that anyone familiar with the Rokkenjima Incident in the "real world" of Umineko ought to know some fact. Knowing which facts people would have to know, which facts they might know, and which facts they can't know is interesting for e.g. figuring out what the Hacihjou team would actually be able to find out about things when writing their stories.
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Old 2011-08-12, 05:32   Link #23740
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Well Renall I don't think that's bad but it's also a speculation on it's own. Not that this is a bad thing at all.

Rokkenjima Prime is a speculation on it's own.
Personally I think ever since arc 1 they've been giving us too many hints that Rokkenjima is fictional. It's not on any maps. No maps of it existed. Krauss couldn't find Kuwadorian by touring the island on helicopter or something. Kuwadorian is anyway very hard to swallow the existence of. More then all of that tho, I always found it very disturbing that while half the characters either lives or spends most of their lives on Rokkenjima, some (like Jessica) since birth, Beatrice in her first letters always says "People of the Ushiromiya Family, welcome to Rokkenjima". Then you ever have Battler going in depth in episode 1 about what the Ushiromiya family would be if Kinzo didn't find 10 tons of gold, that lastest part added with what arc 8 tells us about Kinzo... seems to again hint a Prime without a Rokkenjima (or possibly any murders).

Personally this is what I think. A lot of things exists only within the story, the Shkanon thing, Rokkenjima, 10 tons of gold, etc... Most things that "might make some level of sense, but honestly, you'd only ever see that in a story" - all these elements I believe only exists within the Yasu stories. Rokkenjima is the "setting for a mystery murder story" that Yasu was writing and nothing else.

And Ange's world should be obvious by now with even herself calling herself a piece, that it is yet another fiction. It's the fiction in which all of this is real.
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