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Old 2011-08-20, 13:41   Link #23841
Jan-Poo
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What's the point of a fiction inside a fiction if it's just a fiction?
I can understand when it's like in Hero where the subfiction is the speculation of a character in a fiction. Or like Chobits where the subfiction has an actual allegoric message that is relevant to the fiction. A subfiction without any relevance to the fiction is completely meaningless.

What I mean is: if you want to write two completely unrelated fictions, then write them in separate instances. If you write a fiction inside a fiction, the subfiction MUST have some kind of relevance for the main fiction. Even alternate tellings of the same story should be narrated separatedly, as most visual novels with their many routes do. Not one inside the other.

Besides, who's the author of the events seen in EP8? There is no confirmation of any forgery after EP6. I will dismiss any claim that the events in EP8 are part of someone's story in the main fiction unless proven otherwise. In my opinion those events are either pure meta or a dream inside Ange's head.
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Old 2011-08-20, 14:22   Link #23842
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Since we get multiple, mutually exclusive, outcomes in 1998, we have no choice but to accept one of a few possibilities:

1) Kakeras.
2) 1998 events were also written in the forgeries.
3) Something even stupider, like "It was all in Ange's head."

And I don't like any of them.
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Old 2011-08-20, 14:30   Link #23843
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Reasonable speculation. Especially if the author coming to believe this is Battler himself. And there's no way of knowing what Yasu knew (I mean maybe Rudolf talked to somebody about it one year and she overheard, or she guessed herself).
I agree, especially when it's possible that Battler actually learned about his true birthmother and family circumstances on Rokkenjima.

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Besides, who's the author of the events seen in EP8? There is no confirmation of any forgery after EP6. I will dismiss any claim that the events in EP8 are part of someone's story in the main fiction unless proven otherwise. In my opinion those events are either pure meta or a dream inside Ange's head.
Well she actually "received" a book from BATTLER because she was despairing over everyone assuming her parents were murderers. And T˘ya also said that he started thinking about Ange again and again but was too scared to meet her personally. And it was ripped apart by the voices of the future...
So I'd say it was a story by Hachij˘ that Ange read. And it's actually not that unhelpful if we consider what which author knew.

I mean most of the actual information about what the individual parents did only came after the story. The only things hinted at during the first two novels (probably written by Yasu) are that Rudolph has a secret, that Natsuhi has a dark secret in her past and that Rosa has some strange relation to Beatrice. At least the last two things are something that Yasu would have learned from Genji (who swiped the events under the carpet in the first place).
I still assume that EP3 was written by Eva, because it mostly contains the inner turmoils and the past of Eva and how she reacted towards the incident, while she is always clearly seperate from Eva-Beatrice. There are some information which actually only Eva herself could have known.
EP4 only introduces information that we receive via phone calls and people Battler meets. There is actually no new and relevant information about the family members during any other scenes, as far as I remember. The only other things we learn are those about Maria...and those are featured in the 1998 Ange storyline.

EP5 has the events sorrounding Natsuhi, yes. But shouldn't that maybe tell us that there is a chance that Natsuhi's past actually came to light on the island? Either in a similar fashion to those events or by Yasu telling Battler to move him into accepting her help during the escape. Battler was able to gain that knowledge.

The only Episode actually which is difficult to rationalize without any supernatural forces is EP7.
Yes, we could say that it was just Battler remembering what Yasu told him. But how then did Ange gain knowledge of those events when she didn't meet T˘ya some decades after even 1998? Or are we to assume that Ange never learned about Yasu?
Did she ever actually mention Yasu or talk to Lion during EP8?!

And if she did know, who told her? And how did that person gain knowledge of Yasu? Ok we could assume that this was just a counter argument made by the cruel public (represented by Bern) against T˘ya's book (which was EP8)...but that'd imply that they just accidently got it right and the meta-world was just functioning in order to verify that reasoning.
It works...including 07/15|11/29, Shkannontrice, EP2 past scenes and everything it's not unreasonable to think that one would arrive at Yasu (and even explain why s/he got that fake-name AND why the gender wasn't specified) but it's kinda awkward because any rational explanation ends with "and so they were right as proven by word of Bern".
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Old 2011-08-20, 14:37   Link #23844
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Well she actually "received" a book from BATTLER because she was despairing over everyone assuming her parents were murderers.
I consider the world of the true ending Rokkenjima Prime, in that world Ange never met Tohya nor Ikuko if not many years in the future. Therefore she couldn't have received anything from them except from the forgeries they published.

Sure Battler told Ange a story and Ange grabbed a book from that gameboard, but all of that happened in the metaworld, if these events are true, then why couldn't Natsuhi's confession be true as well?
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Old 2011-08-20, 14:45   Link #23845
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What's the point of a fiction inside a fiction if it's just a fiction?
What's the point of a fiction if it's just a fiction?

Fiction has value because it has content, regardless of the context of that content.

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I can understand when it's like in Hero where the subfiction is the speculation of a character in a fiction. Or like Chobits where the subfiction has an actual allegoric message that is relevant to the fiction. A subfiction without any relevance to the fiction is completely meaningless.
The subfiction IS the fiction. We pretty much never read about the fiction. That's why this is metafiction.

Quote:
Besides, who's the author of the events seen in EP8? There is no confirmation of any forgery after EP6. I will dismiss any claim that the events in EP8 are part of someone's story in the main fiction unless proven otherwise. In my opinion those events are either pure meta or a dream inside Ange's head.
"I won't accept anything unless it's spoonfed to me."

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The only Episode actually which is difficult to rationalize without any supernatural forces is EP7.
Yes, we could say that it was just Battler remembering what Yasu told him. But how then did Ange gain knowledge of those events when she didn't meet T˘ya some decades after even 1998? Or are we to assume that Ange never learned about Yasu?
Did she ever actually mention Yasu or talk to Lion during EP8?!
Someone wrote EP7 as we read it and posted it on the internet. The Ange in the story is a character based on the real Ange, just like the Ange in various other Forgeries.

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And if she did know, who told her? And how did that person gain knowledge of Yasu? Ok we could assume that this was just a counter argument made by the cruel public (represented by Bern) against T˘ya's book (which was EP8)...but that'd imply that they just accidently got it right and the meta-world was just functioning in order to verify that reasoning.
It works...including 07/15|11/29, Shkannontrice, EP2 past scenes and everything it's not unreasonable to think that one would arrive at Yasu (and even explain why s/he got that fake-name AND why the gender wasn't specified) but it's kinda awkward because any rational explanation ends with "and so they were right as proven by word of Bern".
Bern was written by this author in EP7. This person came to the conclusion of Yasu as Shkanontrice, then presumably looked up records of Ushiromiya servants that fit the profile, then noticed some shit was up and speculated.
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Old 2011-08-20, 15:04   Link #23846
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
What's the point of a fiction inside a fiction if it's just a fiction?
Wait, that's like saying it's impossible to write a review.
Or that minigames in a larger game have no points.
Or that it's impossible to tell someone else about your experience while reading a fiction.
Or... etc...etc...etc....

Endless possible points.
Just none of them what you'll get in a typical fiction.
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Old 2011-08-20, 15:10   Link #23847
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Someone wrote EP7 as we read it and posted it on the internet. The Ange in the story is a character based on the real Ange, just like the Ange in various other Forgeries.
So the Ange in EP8 should have no knowledge beyond simple recognition about EP7. I actually don't remember if she interacted with Lion in any meaningful way. The fact that she was surprised by Beatrice meeting with Battler would support that.
Though that again would raise the question...when was EP7 written and by whom? Ange herself? Because not many people interested in the Rokkenjima accident seem to actually know Ange (unless you assume that mean classmate X who bullied her about her parents being murderers wrote it), she seems to have been taken pretty much off the radar by Eva. Especially if you consider that she fooled ďtsuki into believing that she was just some random chick...he would have known her if she actually made it on the news.
And right after the events following Eva's death Ange is already changing her name to Kotobuki Yukari...so Ange was practically never a really well known person as it seems.

Quote:
Bern was written by this author in EP7. This person came to the conclusion of Yasu as Shkanontrice, then presumably looked up records of Ushiromiya servants that fit the profile, then noticed some shit was up and speculated.
You could go around like this, but I'm not a huge fan of the "meta world is part of the fictions" theory...so bear with me for not actually including that into my consideration unless I'm forced to.
Yeah, there are enough ways to back up the Yasu reasoning, so it's not difficult for somebody who actually arrived there to retroactively support and prove that theory.

But I think my point still stands that all those things are kind of wobbling along within a usually more solid narrative. You can explain almost everything with certain characters imagining things in a certain way. But the authorship of EP7 is really just something you have to accept as "it is like that and they found the truth".
It just kind of bothers me because he could have easily circumvented it by allowing EP7 to be a confession by Yasu or even better Genji which was found. Heck, if I can swallow Eva's diary that wouldn't have been that hard.
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Old 2011-08-20, 15:38   Link #23848
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Though that again would raise the question...when was EP7 written and by whom? Ange herself? Because not many people interested in the Rokkenjima accident seem to actually know Ange (unless you assume that mean classmate X who bullied her about her parents being murderers wrote it), she seems to have been taken pretty much off the radar by Eva. Especially if you consider that she fooled ďtsuki into believing that she was just some random chick...he would have known her if she actually made it on the news.
Ange is the last surviving member of the Ushiromiya family. I presume that any Witch Hunter interested in the Rokkenjima incident is interested in her by necessity. And EP7 doesn't seem to be written by Toya, so it was probably written by people on the internet. There are thousands of Forgeries out there, this is just one that reached the truth without being written by someone we know.

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You could go around like this, but I'm not a huge fan of the "meta world is part of the fictions" theory...so bear with me for not actually including that into my consideration unless I'm forced to.
I'm of the mind that the Meta-World is both above and below Rokkenjima Prime; effecting, but being written by, the writers. This narrative 'chicken-and-the-egg' device is formally known as Pantheistic Solipsism.

Quote:
But I think my point still stands that all those things are kind of wobbling along within a usually more solid narrative. You can explain almost everything with certain characters imagining things in a certain way. But the authorship of EP7 is really just something you have to accept as "it is like that and they found the truth".
It just kind of bothers me because he could have easily circumvented it by allowing EP7 to be a confession by Yasu or even better Genji which was found. Heck, if I can swallow Eva's diary that wouldn't have been that hard.
I guess so, but that sort of stuff would've surfaced much earlier if it was the case.
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Old 2011-08-20, 15:44   Link #23849
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I consider the world of the true ending Rokkenjima Prime, in that world Ange never met Tohya nor Ikuko if not many years in the future. Therefore she couldn't have received anything from them except from the forgeries they published.
Yeah this makes a lot of sense, especially if we imagine that Alliance was written after 1998. Since Touya was unable to meet with Ange, the Hachijous wrote Alliance with Ange in it as a message for her. Same with Dawn. And these fictions include their respective ep4 and ep6 1998 events, which are also fiction.

Not certain about Twilight. It's probably also all fiction except the very end decades later.

And yes, I think Banquet was written by Eva, and End and Requiem were written by people we never meet.
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Old 2011-08-20, 17:28   Link #23850
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I don't think 1998 ever appears within any of the fictions, least of all ep6 (where it seems almost a meta-tangent), but if it appears anywhere it appears in Alliance. I'm just not totally sold on that.

I think the evidence is strongly against the meta-world appearing in fictions, although if we were to find out more things about the Witch Hunter community and what forgeries read like, we might know better.
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Old 2011-08-20, 17:54   Link #23851
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I don't think 1998 ever appears within any of the fictions, least of all ep6 (where it seems almost a meta-tangent), but if it appears anywhere it appears in Alliance. I'm just not totally sold on that.

I think the evidence is strongly against the meta-world appearing in fictions, although if we were to find out more things about the Witch Hunter community and what forgeries read like, we might know better.
I agree that the meta-world isn't part of the fictions, but if the 1998 stuff we see isn't, then how do you reconcile the mutually exclusive 1998 events that the various episodes have?
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Old 2011-08-20, 19:00   Link #23852
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Kakeras. Or Ange has a shit-poor memory.
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Old 2011-08-20, 19:11   Link #23853
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Kakeras. Or Ange has a shit-poor memory.
Yeah that's why I think the better answer is that they were part of the fiction.
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Old 2011-08-20, 19:45   Link #23854
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It could be fiction that isn't contained within the actual in-universe fiction. Like the meta-world itself.
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Old 2011-08-20, 23:11   Link #23855
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It could be fiction that isn't contained within the actual in-universe fiction. Like the meta-world itself.
I hate this idea. It's possible, but what'd be the point?? I don't see how them being separate fiction from the in-universe fiction makes for a better overall story.

If we are to consider the 1998 events to be fiction (besides maybe some of episode 8), then there's no reason to get caught up in the idea that 1998 is the "now" of the Umineko world's prime. In which case it makes perfectly good sense to imagine that perhaps some of the forgeries in question were written after 1998. And if these forgeries were written by Touya, who felt guilty about not meeting his sister, then having so much focus on Ange's fate would be natural. Remember, even Touya did not know what happened to Ange after 1998; as far as Touya was concerned, Ange's fate was as much a cat box as Rokkenjima was, so writing a fictional version of what might have happened to her would be completely within his character... even expected. I mean, writing within cat boxes is what he and Ikuko do.

Thematically, we can think of the meta-world of episode 4 and what it means in the Umineko prime world:

ANGE shows up mysteriously=Ange tries to contact "Hachijou Touya"
ANGE tries awkwardly to help BATTLER against BEATRICE=Touya grapples with whether or not he should seek to awaken his memories as Battler so that he can reunite Ange with her brother. The Battler buried deep within Touya's consciousnesses is only vaguely aware of 1998 Ange.
ANGE reveals her identity and gets ANGE-burgered=Shortly after Touya/Battler heard that Ange wanted to contact him, she goes missing. Or it could be that because she goes missing the Battler within Touya realizes the significance that this tragic turn of events has for Ange.
BATTLER gets really motivated=Touya regrets his hesitation, resolves to figure out the truth, and the restraints placed on the Battler within Touya are broken.

Thus Alliance was born. It was written at some point after Ange attempted to contact "Hachijou Touya" in 1998, and it unites both the 1986 and 1998 parts of episode 4 in one fiction.

It also explains how ANGE came back in episode 6 after being ANGE-burgered in episode 4. It's because they are different ideas/perspectives of Ange. The episode 4 ANGE was how the BATTLER within Touya saw her in 1998, when she attempted to contact "Hachijou Touya", and her death in front of him was a metaphor for her disappearance (meaning possibly her death, but at least that she may never have the chance to meet her brother again). Later versions of ANGE are a different perspective of Ange, perhaps her own perspective of herself.

It does beg the question of why Ange would try to contact "Hachijou Touya" in the first place if there was yet no Alliance through which Ange would have gotten interested in "Hachijou Touya". That is unless Touya/Ikuko wrote Banquet after all, or perhaps because they wrote some lesser known forgeries that were not made into episodes.

Actually, after reviewing episode 6 it becomes hard to imagine that anyone besides "Hachijou Touya" wrote Banquet and End, since they were both, along with Alliance, written by 18^8, who could only be Touya. Now I feel pretty silly for arguing otherwise all this time.

Last edited by Wanderer; 2011-08-20 at 23:40.
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Old 2011-08-21, 11:11   Link #23856
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Thematically, we can think of the meta-world of episode 4 and what it means in the Umineko prime world:

Thus Alliance was born. It was written at some point after Ange attempted to contact "Hachijou Touya" in 1998, and it unites both the 1986 and 1998 parts of episode 4 in one fiction.
I'd agree with the point that Meta-Ange (Gretel) is a product of T˘yas conflict, but 1998 Ange isn't as far as I'd see it. 1998 Ange never shows any direct signs of having been in the meta world with Beatrice and Battler, rather she still seems to be in the dark about everything.
I don't like the idea of 1998 being fiction because it would rather defeat the whole purpose of the Ange plot. It'd be just another possibility imagined by T˘ya and not really a pressing reason to find or hide the truth. Ange could have just as well lived a happy life together with Eva and decided on a whim to become Kotobuki Yukari after Eva died because she felt sad.
It would make 1998 nothing more than a simple guess and opposite to the 1986 depictions which are based on Battler's experiences, Yasu's suggestions and actual evidence present after the incident. Everything about Ange would be nothing more than a wild guess as T˘ya even admits that he went out of his way to avoid Ange and even lost track of her after she changed names.

I think parallel universes are still the easiest way to explain the different 1998s...or if you'd like to stay within the language of Umineko, it's a fiction that encompasses the fictions like Renall already suggested.
It's a fiction that is contained within Ryűkishis game with us, to show us what a result of the tragedy of 1986 could be in 1998. The events of EP6 are not any more real than Anges death on Rokkenjima in EP4. In EP8 it is made clear that she probably made her decision in the moment she was about to jump...so from there on the possibilities of 1998 would branch as well and become a cat box. It's not Beatrices 1986 Rokkenjima cat box, it's Kotobuki Yukaris 1998 Ange cat box. Because nobody can prove what became of Ange after 1998...Okonogi, Amakusa, T˘ya and Ikuko are the only ones beside her who know that she's Ange.

Quote:
Actually, after reviewing episode 6 it becomes hard to imagine that anyone besides "Hachijou Touya" wrote Banquet and End, since they were both, along with Alliance, written by 18^8, who could only be Touya. Now I feel pretty silly for arguing otherwise all this time.
Was it actually mentioned in the text that they were written by 18^8? I was about to search for such a quote, but other things and obligations are keeping me from actually going through Chiru once again right now.
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Old 2011-08-21, 12:27   Link #23857
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What is 18^8 mean? Is it some form of writing or is it the mathmatical equation that spells out Tohya's name?


Also, are you guys saying that Ange's 1998 stories were fake?!? If they were, talk about a serious waste of time....
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Old 2011-08-21, 14:00   Link #23858
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Originally Posted by cronnoponno View Post
What is 18^8 mean? Is it some form of writing or is it the mathmatical equation that spells out Tohya's name?
It relates to the duos other penname (which was probably used to write internet fiction) 伊藤幾九郎〇五七六 which apparently can also be read as 11019960576 (probably something along the lines of It˘ikukuromarugoshichimu...) which then becomes 11.019.960.576 or 18^8. In Japanese that is 18の8乗 which is read じゅうはちのはちじょう or Jűhachi no Hachij˘.
Was it not included in the translation?

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Also, are you guys saying that Ange's 1998 stories were fake?!? If they were, talk about a serious waste of time....
No, I'm saying quite the opposite. If they were just a part of Hachij˘s novels then they would either be fake or written decades after 1998, because he did not meet with Ange until then and even then they seemed to hardly talk about the past.

I'm arguing that Ange's 1998 is just as much a cat box, for us and everyone who did not share that time with her, as the 1986 events on Rokkenjima are to her. That is because when she became Kotobuki Yukari Ange just stopped existing and she could just as well actually be presumed to be dead or riding on a boat somewhere.
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Old 2011-08-21, 14:33   Link #23859
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Was it actually mentioned in the text that they were written by 18^8? I was about to search for such a quote, but other things and obligations are keeping me from actually going through Chiru once again right now.
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Originally Posted by cronnoponno View Post
What is 18^8 mean? Is it some form of writing or is it the mathmatical equation that spells out Tohya's name?
Yes. When we say 18^8 we are referring to a forgery author with a name read as Itouikururo, who Ange in episode 6 said was the author of Banquet, Alliance and End. Itouikukuro is also a word-number play that links him to Hachijou Touya. Ikuko confirmed it by complimenting Ange on figuring it out.

This is all in the very very early part of episode 6, shortly after Ange meets Ikuko. It would only take a few minutes to find it and read it yourselves

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
It relates to the duos other penname (which was probably used to write internet fiction) 伊藤幾九郎〇五七六 which apparently can also be read as 11019960576 (probably something along the lines of It˘ikukuromarugoshichimu...) which then becomes 11.019.960.576 or 18^8. In Japanese that is 18の8乗 which is read じゅうはちのはちじょう or Jűhachi no Hachij˘.
Was it not included in the translation?
It was mentioned in the translation, but naturally it was not explained in as much detail.

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Also, are you guys saying that Ange's 1998 stories were fake?!? If they were, talk about a serious waste of time....
I'm saying they were. Haguruma disagrees.

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
I'd agree with the point that Meta-Ange (Gretel) is a product of T˘yas conflict, but 1998 Ange isn't as far as I'd see it. 1998 Ange never shows any direct signs of having been in the meta world with Beatrice and Battler, rather she still seems to be in the dark about everything.
I'm contending that in episode 4 the Ange we see in the meta-room helping BATTLER out is meta-Ange (a.k.a. Gretel), while the Ange we see seeking out the truth by going to Rokkenjima is piece-Ange.

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I don't like the idea of 1998 being fiction because it would rather defeat the whole purpose of the Ange plot. It'd be just another possibility imagined by T˘ya and not really a pressing reason to find or hide the truth. Ange could have just as well lived a happy life together with Eva and decided on a whim to become Kotobuki Yukari after Eva died because she felt sad.
Yes, and all the Ushiromiyas could actually just be secretly having a cool time in Hawaii. Fiction of 1998 Ange is exactly as meaningful as fiction of 1986 Rokkenjima.

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It would make 1998 nothing more than a simple guess and opposite to the 1986 depictions which are based on Battler's experiences, Yasu's suggestions and actual evidence present after the incident. Everything about Ange would be nothing more than a wild guess as T˘ya even admits that he went out of his way to avoid Ange and even lost track of her after she changed names.
He lost track of her, which is exactly why he writes about her.

There's also nothing to indicate that Touya remembers anything important about what happened on Rokkenjima in 1986. The answer he found at the end of episode 5 wasn't about what actually happened, but the truth of Beatrice and her game.

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
I think parallel universes are still the easiest way to explain the different 1998s...or if you'd like to stay within the language of Umineko, it's a fiction that encompasses the fictions like Renall already suggested.
It's a fiction that is contained within Ryűkishis game with us, to show us what a result of the tragedy of 1986 could be in 1998. The events of EP6 are not any more real than Anges death on Rokkenjima in EP4. In EP8 it is made clear that she probably made her decision in the moment she was about to jump...so from there on the possibilities of 1998 would branch as well and become a cat box. It's not Beatrices 1986 Rokkenjima cat box, it's Kotobuki Yukaris 1998 Ange cat box. Because nobody can prove what became of Ange after 1998...Okonogi, Amakusa, T˘ya and Ikuko are the only ones beside her who know that she's Ange.
After avoiding unfounded parallel universes with Author Theory, I think it'd be lame to incorporate them here. The cat box of Rokkenjima has been presented to us through Author Theory, so why does that cat box of 1998 Ange have to be Kakeras?

I think episode 6 Ange is probably all meta. Ange during this part is always questioning her memories. She even says something like: "Did I ever actually meet this person?" It's clearly suggested that this 1998 event of meeting Ikuko is something that Ange is strangely remembering, rather than actually doing. Also, as Ikuko/Featherine says, Battler's point of view is no longer subjective since he is now the game master (incidentally, this also fits perfectly with Genius Battler Theory), so we have to meta the meta in order to keep the story interesting. Actually, I wouldn't say that it is a meta-world of the original meta-world, but a different meta-world, like the meta-world of Ange's mind instead of Battler's. In other words, the difference between these meta-worlds is lateral, not vertical.

Last edited by Wanderer; 2011-08-21 at 14:44.
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Old 2011-08-21, 16:58   Link #23860
cronnoponno
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
It relates to the duos other penname (which was probably used to write internet fiction) 伊藤幾九郎〇五七六 which apparently can also be read as 11019960576 (probably something along the lines of It˘ikukuromarugoshichimu...) which then becomes 11.019.960.576 or 18^8. In Japanese that is 18の8乗 which is read じゅうはちのはちじょう or Jűhachi no Hachij˘.
Was it not included in the translation?
It was, I was just making sure you guys didn't mean anything else, which is why I asked if it was just the pun on Tohya's name.
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