AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Umineko

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2011-08-21, 17:32   Link #23861
haguruma
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Germany
Age: 29
Send a message via ICQ to haguruma Send a message via MSN to haguruma
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Yes, and all the Ushiromiyas could actually just be secretly having a cool time in Hawaii. Fiction of 1998 Ange is exactly as meaningful as fiction of 1986 Rokkenjima.
Not exactly. As long as they don't all suffered amnesia except Eva, then narrative logic dictates that they are dead. It has been suggested in the ???? epilogue of EP8 that Bern was only able to pronounce Battler dead from the perspective of post-Rokkenjima is because Ushiromiya Battler died that day.
Everything we learn about Ange is either true or impossible to prove unless Ange or the top-layer (in terms of narrative authority) author (Ryűkishi) says so.

Yes, Ange is depicted as being a piece in her 1998 scenes, but not a piece of Beatrice or Battler as the pieces of Rokkenjima. In EP4 she is a piece of Bern and in EP6 she is summoned by Featherine, she is even aware of being in a fabricated universe in EP6 ("And because of that this was all deception").
But why is it better to have that as a part of the fictions itself? You said yourself that the meta-meta-world of EP6 was probably fabricated by Anges thoughts. So we need an Ange that truly exists in order to produce that meta-meta-world unless you are of the position that the meta-world(s) are part of the fiction as well.

By the way, I took the time and searched for a script of the Chiru Episodes and we learn this about the fictions and their authors in EP6:
Spoiler for length:

So it is at least implied that Banquet was different from the EP3 we saw and that it actually ended with a depiction of Eva arriving at Kuwadorian. There is also no mention of Ange being included in the plot of Alliance. Hachij˘ even says that she had seen and heard some about Ange in wideshows but it was nice to meet her finally and how she might be angry for killing her family so many times in fiction. I think it would be strange not to mention the plot of 1998 had it been included in the fictions. It would also be strange for Ange to have a perfect memory of all of her investigations on Hachij˘ but confuse 50% of her last novel for her own memory.

Quote:
There's also nothing to indicate that Touya remembers anything important about what happened on Rokkenjima in 1986. The answer he found at the end of episode 5 wasn't about what actually happened, but the truth of Beatrice and her game.
It is implied that he knows of a truth that he has to shield Ange from and prevent the public from knowing. I think he is pretty close to the actual events of 1986.

Quote:
After avoiding unfounded parallel universes with Author Theory, I think it'd be lame to incorporate them here. The cat box of Rokkenjima has been presented to us through Author Theory, so why does that cat box of 1998 Ange have to be Kakeras?
Actually none of them cancels the other out. Author Theory is just a way to rationalize the events of all the Episodes. In a way all these events do happen on the 4th and 5th of October 1986, at least they all have similar chances of happening or not happening. For example the chance of Eva dying is 0% but the chance of Natushi admitting her terrible secret is as much 100% as her dying before she can tell anybody.
And just as much is Anges fate a catbox to us until we read the ???? of EP8 and accept that Kotobuki Yukari is actually Ushiromiya Ange (which you could as much doubt, if you start doubting that the other family members died). She could have went to Rokkenjima and died, went to Rokkenjima and became a murderer...she could even have died by jumping of the building. The possibilities are endless.

It's not about parallel universes, it's about uncertainty creating infinite possibilities. That is why Lambdadelta has power over Beatrice, because certainty crushes infinity. Once you know that Kotobuki Yukari is Ushiromiya Ange after she changed her name, every possibility that depicts something else crumbles.
haguruma is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-08-21, 21:33   Link #23862
Wanderer
Goat
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
Quote:
Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
Not exactly. As long as they don't all suffered amnesia except Eva, then narrative logic dictates that they are dead. It has been suggested in the ???? epilogue of EP8 that Bern was only able to pronounce Battler dead from the perspective of post-Rokkenjima is because Ushiromiya Battler died that day.
Don't take my joke too seriously. I'm only saying that just because Ange might have changed her name on a whim doesn't mean there's no reason to write fiction about other possibilities.

Quote:
Everything we learn about Ange is either true or impossible to prove unless Ange or the top-layer (in terms of narrative authority) author (Ryűkishi) says so.
Yeah. The real Ange is a cat box (at least until the episode 8 "????"). No disagreement here.

Quote:
Yes, Ange is depicted as being a piece in her 1998 scenes, but not a piece of Beatrice or Battler as the pieces of Rokkenjima. In EP4 she is a piece of Bern and in EP6 she is summoned by Featherine, she is even aware of being in a fabricated universe in EP6 ("And because of that this was all deception").
Now that we know that Touya wrote End, the idea that Bern's pieces can't appear in Touya's stories loses most of it's weight; just because she's "Bern's piece" doesn't mean it isn't Touya writing about her.

Quote:
But why is it better to have that as a part of the fictions itself? You said yourself that the meta-meta-world of EP6 was probably fabricated by Anges thoughts. So we need an Ange that truly exists in order to produce that meta-meta-world unless you are of the position that the meta-world(s) are part of the fiction as well.
Well. We know that an Ange does truly exist by episode 8's "????". However, for Touya her status after disappearing is a cat box; he doesn't even know if she is still alive.

As for why I think it's better if they are part of the fictions, it's because I don't think that there should be any Kakeras that exist except those that have been conceived through someone imagining them and conveying them to others (through writing). And who else would write about Ange besides Touya?

Quote:
By the way, I took the time and searched for a script of the Chiru Episodes and we learn this about the fictions and their authors in EP6:
Spoiler for length:

So it is at least implied that Banquet was different from the EP3 we saw and that it actually ended with a depiction of Eva arriving at Kuwadorian.
Yeah. A discrepancy that is a thorn in the side of many theories. I'll venture to say that even though the EP3 we saw didn't show us Eva escaping to the Kuwadorian, it was actually written in Banquet; we just didn't get to read the very end of it. I think it went this way because RK07 wanted to save the explosion hint until episode 4.

Quote:
There is also no mention of Ange being included in the plot of Alliance. Hachij˘ even says that she had seen and heard some about Ange in wideshows but it was nice to meet her finally and how she might be angry for killing her family so many times in fiction. I think it would be strange not to mention the plot of 1998 had it been included in the fictions. It would also be strange for Ange to have a perfect memory of all of her investigations on Hachij˘ but confuse 50% of her last novel for her own memory.
This. This is a very good point. However, we're still talking about a very surreal meta-world situation, so maybe it isn't so strange that some topics weren't brought up.

Plus, I think that the topic may have just been avoided because RK07 didn't want to spell it out for us. In fact, this makes sense; he still left a lot of hints, like how Ange's memory was somehow distorted.

Quote:
It is implied that he knows of a truth that he has to shield Ange from and prevent the public from knowing. I think he is pretty close to the actual events of 1986.
Is it though? We know he wants Ange to avoid the truth, but does that mean he knows it? In his change of heart towards Beatrice (throughout episode 5), there is nothing to indicate that BATTLER figured out who the real culprit on Rokkenjima was (unless it was actually Battler himself ).

Hmm. I don't remember Battler's exact reaction when lil' Ange questioned him about this in episode 8.

Quote:
Actually none of them cancels the other out. Author Theory is just a way to rationalize the events of all the Episodes. In a way all these events do happen on the 4th and 5th of October 1986, at least they all have similar chances of happening or not happening. For example the chance of Eva dying is 0% but the chance of Natushi admitting her terrible secret is as much 100% as her dying before she can tell anybody.
And just as much is Anges fate a catbox to us until we read the ???? of EP8 and accept that Kotobuki Yukari is actually Ushiromiya Ange (which you could as much doubt, if you start doubting that the other family members died). She could have went to Rokkenjima and died, went to Rokkenjima and became a murderer...she could even have died by jumping of the building. The possibilities are endless.
Right. So if Rokkenjima's cat box warrants rationalization through Author Theory, why doesn't the cat box of Ange's disappearance?

Quote:
It's not about parallel universes, it's about uncertainty creating infinite possibilities. That is why Lambdadelta has power over Beatrice, because certainty crushes infinity. Once you know that Kotobuki Yukari is Ushiromiya Ange after she changed her name, every possibility that depicts something else crumbles.
(A tangent): Yes, but what is the difference? Through the lens of the meta-world, each of these infinite possibilities is a parallel universe.
Wanderer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-08-21, 22:14   Link #23863
haguruma
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Germany
Age: 29
Send a message via ICQ to haguruma Send a message via MSN to haguruma
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Well. We know that an Ange does truly exist by episode 8's "????". However, for Touya her status after disappearing is a cat box; he doesn't even know if she is still alive.
Actually for T˘ya every Ange except the one he probably met in 1986 sometime before he went to Rokkenjima (maybe on his birthday or when Rudolph picked him up) and maybe one or two shots of her on a wideshow are a catbox.
That's the problem I'm having...if 1998 Ange is just a fabrication of T˘ya, then she could very likely be nothing like the real Ange of 1998. Everybody from Rokkenjima he described are based on things he actually knew about them or could imagine them doing...but he only knew Ange from 1 to 6 years old and didn't meet her again until she was maybe something along the lines of 40. Therefore 1998 Ange would be nothing more than Erika in terms o substantiality. And that's why I don't like the idea of 1998 being part of T˘yas fictions.

Quote:
As for why I think it's better if they are part of the fictions, it's because I don't think that there should be any Kakeras that exist except those that have been conceived through someone imagining them and conveying them to others (through writing). And who else would write about Ange besides Touya?
But the Kakera are conceived by someones thoughts. Plotwise it is Ange and narrative-wise it is Ryűkishi. It is a possible future that might have come to pass and it is not impossible to think that Ange might have thought about such a future. And on the other hand, Ryűkishi had to show us these alternatives in order to provide us with the necessary clues about the world after the Rokkenjima incident.
I think it doesn't need Kakera to exist that much after all. Not more than is actually accepted within the plot, for example by Kotobuki Yukari thinking about what "the witch said in red about Ushiromiya Battler being dead".

Quote:
Yeah. A discrepancy that is a thorn in the side of many theories. I'll venture to say that even though the EP3 we saw didn't show us Eva escaping to the Kuwadorian, it was actually written in Banquet; we just didn't get to read the very end of it. I think it went this way because RK07 wanted to save the explosion hint until episode 4.
I'll even go so far and stand by my theory that we never read any forgery in the way it was written within the world of Umineko. I'd say it clearly shows that the metaworld represents T˘ya thinking about what he's reading/writing/discussing with Ikuko and thus it does not have to directly corelate to the content of the fictions. Though I'd be interested in what [End] was actually like as a novel, because even Hachij˘ said that "she" only killed 7 of Anges relatives in that story.
haguruma is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-08-22, 02:50   Link #23864
Wanderer
Goat
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
Quote:
Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
Actually for T˘ya every Ange except the one he probably met in 1986 sometime before he went to Rokkenjima (maybe on his birthday or when Rudolph picked him up) and maybe one or two shots of her on a wideshow are a catbox.
That's the problem I'm having...if 1998 Ange is just a fabrication of T˘ya, then she could very likely be nothing like the real Ange of 1998. Everybody from Rokkenjima he described are based on things he actually knew about them or could imagine them doing...but he only knew Ange from 1 to 6 years old and didn't meet her again until she was maybe something along the lines of 40. Therefore 1998 Ange would be nothing more than Erika in terms o substantiality. And that's why I don't like the idea of 1998 being part of T˘yas fictions.
Yeah, and Touya got Kinzo's character perfect in Alliance (I'm being sarcastic here). We got so many drastically different versions of Kinzo that we know just how willing Touya is to throw us wild characterizations of the subjects of his stories without regard for accuracy. Even Touya's knowledge of non-immediate family members is limited to Rokkenjima 1986 and stuff from 6 years before, when he was 12. And did he even meet his extended family members that often before then? Jessica and George probably changed a lot in those 6 years. Maria even more; he last saw her when she was 3, so what would he know about her? Heck, he never even met Gohda until October 4th 1986. And when it comes to 1986, his memories are highly questionable. So we know he just makes his shit up and he does the same with 1998 Ange.

And Ange's existence was not a secret to the public until she disappeared in 1998. In fact, she was under a lot of public scrutiny; even Ikuko remarked on her reputation. Touya could combine his memories of Ange as a 6-year-old, common knowledge and rumors about her, and his own imagination of what she's gone through; all to write a fiction that would certainly have an inaccurate characterization of Ange, but no more inaccurate than what he has already done with the people on Rokkenjima.

So yeah, maybe the real Ange never did anything drastic in order to find the truth; she just changed her name and moved on when Eva died. But, that's not what we are reading about; we're reading about Touya's mind. You know how RK07 loves to write from these kinds of one-sided, unreliable viewpoints (I'll submit Higurashi's Onikakushi-hen as a prime example). The meaning behind Ange's story as Touya's fiction is in how it shows his regret, lament, and worries for Ange. And of course, it makes for a good, tragic story to boot.

Here's an interesting thought: How did Sakutarou make it into the forgeries (he shows up indisputably in episode 6)? Wouldn't Touya have to have heard of him from somewhere? Did he hear about him on the island in 1986? Or did he somehow read about it later from Maria's diary or something? Or did he just make him up on his own?
Wanderer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-08-22, 03:21   Link #23865
AuraTwilight
The True Culprit
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Golden Land
Send a message via AIM to AuraTwilight Send a message via MSN to AuraTwilight
Or perhaps Toya is receiving true information that he thinks is his imagination while he writes...and is receiving it from the Meta-World....oooooOOOooohhhh!
__________________
When the Silent Spirits Cry: An Umineko/Silent Hill crossover fanfiction
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4565173&postcount=531
AuraTwilight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-08-22, 04:03   Link #23866
haguruma
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Germany
Age: 29
Send a message via ICQ to haguruma Send a message via MSN to haguruma
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Yeah, and Touya got Kinzo's character perfect in Alliance (I'm being sarcastic here). We got so many drastically different versions of Kinzo that we know just how willing Touya is to throw us wild characterizations of the subjects of his stories without regard for accuracy. Even Touya's knowledge of non-immediate family members is limited to Rokkenjima 1986 and stuff from 6 years before, when he was 12.
Well, actually all the characters from 1986 are rather bland apart from the light that is shed on those who express themselves through their confessions on the island.
Let's look at which characters T˘ya actually developed in his stories:
  • Banquet focused on Eva and some small details on Kyrie, nobody else was substantialy developed
  • Alliances Kinz˘ was wrong because Battler never actually met him in 1986, so he could just guess what he could have been like
  • Apart from that Alliance offers only some minor details, like how Krauss used to be boxing in the past
  • End depes our knowledge of Natsuhi in an event that could have possibly happened quite similarly
  • Dawn didn't develop anything that wasn't already prepared as a plot device

Then let's look at the other developments we had along the way:
  • Everything we know about Jessica and George we know from Yasus message bottle stories
  • Rosa and Maria are only elaborated on within Maria's diary
  • Nanj˘s and Kumasawas family relations are found out by Ange in 1998
  • Gohda was only developed through a TIP
  • Genji, Krauss, Hideyoshi and Rosa never really get much development within T˘ya's stories

Quote:
Here's an interesting thought: How did Sakutarou make it into the forgeries (he shows up indisputably in episode 6)? Wouldn't Touya have to have heard of him from somewhere?
I thought about this as well and stumbled across something interesting to return. Does Battler ever comment on any of the events sorrounding Maria and Sakutar˘? I think he doesn't because it's on a different meta-plane and as many people agree, the meta-world is not part of the fictions.
The only places where Sakutar˘ actually appears are meta-scenes. So unless we agree that those are in the stories, there is no need for T˘ya to have any knowledge of Sakutar˘ or Maria's relation to him. Even Erika's battle against Maria in EP6 is fought on a meta-plane.

I hope you're not taking this as agressive. It's not like your theory is impossible, it's quite possible to accept your idea...it's just that I don't see any reason for it besides fancying a whole fictional universe over the idea of parallel universes created by thoughts. I'd rather have the second than the whole 1998 plot being just guilt ridden T˘ya.
haguruma is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-08-22, 04:50   Link #23867
Wanderer
Goat
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
Quote:
Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
Well, actually all the characters from 1986 are rather bland apart from the light that is shed on those who express themselves through their confessions on the island.
Spoiler for added for length:
I'm not sure how all this is supposed to oppose my position. Are you saying that compared to the Rokkenjima characters, who are blandly extrapolated by the first two bottle-stories, 1998 Ange is developed in too much detail to be fabricated by Touya?

Quote:
I thought about this as well and stumbled across something interesting to return. Does Battler ever comment on any of the events sorrounding Maria and Sakutar˘? I think he doesn't because it's on a different meta-plane and as many people agree, the meta-world is not part of the fictions.
The only places where Sakutar˘ actually appears are meta-scenes. So unless we agree that those are in the stories, there is no need for T˘ya to have any knowledge of Sakutar˘ or Maria's relation to him. Even Erika's battle against Maria in EP6 is fought on a meta-plane.
In episode 6 Sakutarou also appears in the fight between Kanon (or was it Shannon?) and MARIA. Unless you are saying that Touya didn't write that part (which requires explanation), then it means he knew of him.

Sakutarou is also in the scene in episode 4 where Maria kills Rosa over and over again. What plane is that scene in? Eerily, Maria wakes up with the cousins right after the scene, and throws a big tantrum when Battler makes a little tease about her being "half asleep".

Quote:
I hope you're not taking this as agressive. It's not like your theory is impossible, it's quite possible to accept your idea...it's just that I don't see any reason for it besides fancying a whole fictional universe over the idea of parallel universes created by thoughts. I'd rather have the second than the whole 1998 plot being just guilt ridden T˘ya.
Not at all. I'm posting because I want feedback; I am quite happy to have you arguing with me.

As for why I want a "whole universe":
I feel that Umineko was written with the intent to work on multiple levels. For example, as a mystery and as a fantasy. As a fantasy, it's not hard to get; what is presented to you is what happened. The mystery requires a lot more thought. In the same spirit I believe that it's intended to work as both a single universe and a Kakera multiverse. Accepting a Kakera multiverse is fine, but it does not take that much thought. I want to understand both sides, so I'm trying to figure out the single universe solution, which is much harder.

I don't think the Kakera multiverse solution is bad, it just doesn't require discussion.
Wanderer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-08-22, 07:02   Link #23868
Kealym
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
On the matter of whether the 18 humans could be written, in a fiction, with any degree of accuracy to their "real selves".

Sometimes, it's fairly obvious the author just avoids a character for sheer, utter lack of knowledge about them (lol Genji, and the fathers). But let's not forget that most of those people also had, y'know, LIVES. You can't confirm with certainty that "Jessica was an upbeat girl who faked asthma sometimes", but you could reasonably verify something like "She was known to her friends and teachers as an upbeat girl with asthma, which one or two people felt, occasionally, were very conveniently timed" ... ... for, y'know, semantic exactitude or whatever.

Basically, everyone's true character is in the catbox (well, at least the behavior they would've had during the conference, as none of Jessica's friends would know if, say, she would became sullen and depressed when she was alone), HOWEVER, I still believe "pieces must act in character = because R-Prime people would call bullshit otherwise.

The "wouldn't put it past him" game could probably be done with Kinzo so extensively because as far as ANYONE knew, Kinzo had become a slightly unhinged recluse for the last X years.
Kealym is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-08-22, 08:25   Link #23869
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Though again we run into the R-Prime problem, which is that while we could ask these questions of people familiar with the "real" people, we can't do that if we don't live in R-Prime (which, as far as I know, we don't). Thus we're limited to the information and witnesses the author is willing to throw at us, to say nothing of the information and witnesses the in-universe authors actually have (and they don't tell us their sources, it seems).

So while it's possible there is a coworker out there who claims Kyrie loved cute stuffed bunnies, thought knives were scary, and believed murder for money is one of the most despicable things anyone could do, if we're never shown this person we kind of just have to assume there weren't any R-Prime people calling shenanigans on any particular characterization, and thus, that the characterizations were more or less accurate.

Possible exceptions for the one-winged servants and Kinzo, of course, whom many people may not have known very well. Although if Yasu existed, there'd be documentation about that, and presumably Genji has ID or something, so it's not like their existence is impossible to trace.
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-08-22, 14:55   Link #23870
victorino123
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Try reading EP7 and you'll see why the idea doesn't actually work.
I thought they showed that shannon and kannon aren't the same person in EP5 D:
(too lazy to read ep7 -_-)
victorino123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-08-22, 15:48   Link #23871
Wanderer
Goat
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
Speaking of episode 7. What is it? A forgery? All meta? Yasu's diary? It has a forgery-like title (Requiem of the Golden Witch).

How come Gaap appeared in Alliance; how would Touya know about her? It seems pretty severe to imagine that he knew Yasu's past so well to write Requiem, or that he made it up. And if Touya didn't write it, who did? No one?
Wanderer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-08-22, 16:15   Link #23872
AuraTwilight
The True Culprit
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Golden Land
Send a message via AIM to AuraTwilight Send a message via MSN to AuraTwilight
Quote:
Originally Posted by victorino123 View Post
I thought they showed that shannon and kannon aren't the same person in EP5 D:
(too lazy to read ep7 -_-)
They showed no such thing. It was just left ambiguous. But Shannon and Kanon are the same person. That's not deniable anymore.

Quote:
Speaking of episode 7. What is it? A forgery? All meta? Yasu's diary? It has a forgery-like title (Requiem of the Golden Witch).
Someone found Yasu's diary and wrote a forgery about it. Perhaps inspired by Bernkastel's meta-fuckery if you assume a causal relationship between worlds.

Quote:
How come Gaap appeared in Alliance; how would Touya know about her? It seems pretty severe to imagine that he knew Yasu's past so well to write Requiem, or that he made it up. And if Touya didn't write it, who did? No one?
Maria talks about Gaap infront of Battler in EP1.
__________________
When the Silent Spirits Cry: An Umineko/Silent Hill crossover fanfiction
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4565173&postcount=531
AuraTwilight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-08-22, 17:04   Link #23873
Wanderer
Goat
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Maria talks about Gaap infront of Battler in EP1.
She did!? When was this?
Wanderer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-08-22, 17:51   Link #23874
AuraTwilight
The True Culprit
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Golden Land
Send a message via AIM to AuraTwilight Send a message via MSN to AuraTwilight
I don't remember exactly. It was at some point where Maria was explaining magic to everyone during the murders, and she mentions that Gaap had the ability to warp anything anywhere, so closed rooms were no problem for Beatrice.
__________________
When the Silent Spirits Cry: An Umineko/Silent Hill crossover fanfiction
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4565173&postcount=531
AuraTwilight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-08-22, 18:49   Link #23875
haguruma
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Germany
Age: 29
Send a message via ICQ to haguruma Send a message via MSN to haguruma
Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
I don't remember exactly. It was at some point where Maria was explaining magic to everyone during the murders, and she mentions that Gaap had the ability to warp anything anywhere, so closed rooms were no problem for Beatrice.
It was right after the fight between Eva and Natsuhi in the parlour concerning Kinz˘ dissapearing:
Quote:
Originally Posted by EP1
"...Bringing Grandfather outside without opening the doors or windows must be a piece of cake for Beatrice, right...?"

Maria, after taking a single, short breath, hung her head, ...and then raised her face again.

"............That's right. Kihihihihihihihi, locking a door is useless against a witch. ......Beatrice is familiar with all 72 demons. The 33rd ranked, Gaap, gives the power to instantly carry the desired person to any location. ...To her, taking a person out of any closed room isn't hard at all, you see? Kihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihi..."
haguruma is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-08-22, 19:01   Link #23876
Cao Ni Ma
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
How the witches looked where also forshadowed by Maria or at least her notebook. Its pretty clear that RK had a defined view of what the meta world was gonna in the early stages of the development.
Cao Ni Ma is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-08-22, 19:24   Link #23877
AuraTwilight
The True Culprit
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Golden Land
Send a message via AIM to AuraTwilight Send a message via MSN to AuraTwilight
I wouldn't say so. For one thing, the witches were only given an appearance in Maria's notebook in the MANGA, which is canonically iffy at best.

Given that Ryukishi confirmed that he left a lot of things open and changed things along the way, it's more likely he peppered chekov's gun elements all over the place so he could finalize his decisions later and still seem self-consistent. It's common among writers.
__________________
When the Silent Spirits Cry: An Umineko/Silent Hill crossover fanfiction
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4565173&postcount=531
AuraTwilight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-08-23, 01:53   Link #23878
Cao Ni Ma
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
They are described in ep1 as far as I remember since I remember the scene and have never read the manga. Its just at a glance, nothing in detail. Just that they're clothing was lively and nothing like the typical witch look.
Cao Ni Ma is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-08-23, 02:29   Link #23879
AuraTwilight
The True Culprit
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Golden Land
Send a message via AIM to AuraTwilight Send a message via MSN to AuraTwilight
You'll have to get a quote, because I'm not finding it, and I can't find anything indicating anything beyond her idealistic fantasies of witches as being effectively sugary magical girl types.
__________________
When the Silent Spirits Cry: An Umineko/Silent Hill crossover fanfiction
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4565173&postcount=531
AuraTwilight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-08-23, 08:22   Link #23880
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
I'm pretty sure there's no physical descriptions of Gaap until ep4, and I'm not even remotely convinced that Gaap's explanation in ep7 was actually thought up before ep4. In fact I'd wager a modest sum that he made that one up later.
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:45.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.