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Old 2011-08-30, 10:40   Link #24001
Renall
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It doesn't really make a lot of sense that Krauss and to a lesser extent Hideyoshi's supposed deaths aren't considered essential topics in the trial, but that whole trial was ridiculous and if I weren't neck-deep in something else I'd write a trial forgery that follows some actual goddamn legal rules. Arguably, Erika doesn't even have to care who killed (or "killed") those two, as she can still press that Natsuhi was the only possible culprit for the first set of murders. That would obviously mean there's still a killer running around, but I guess Erika doesn't care.
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Old 2011-08-30, 17:27   Link #24002
Wanderer
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Now that I remember, Erika did make use of some reds to pin Natsuhi (ones that didn't even have to do with Krauss's death):
Spoiler:
There are probably more, but I don't wanna fish for them. Anyway, point is that these reds were used by Erika but not earned by her, so she did violate Knox's 2nd. Dlanor just didn't counter them 'cause... well I guess just 'cause they were on the same side.

It's funny to think of what Erika would do if she was forced to accept that Natsuhi wasn't the culprit; would she have to concede the existance of witches?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Restating my theory, based on it's two uses, and mentions in Will's solutions that gold truth means either

Common sense to all observers, but can't be objectively proven for some reason (STRONGER than red truth, like the identity of Kinzo's corpse)
Something all observers just agree to lie about (WEAKER than red truth)
I have the advantage of some thematic insight gained from episode 8, and this is what I think:

You're close, but it's not about people lying about things they know to be true; it's about trust in things without certain proof. So in the context of lying, the Gold Truth is generated by the fooled, not the fooler (well, not directly anyway). For example, Will's reference to the "Golden Truth" that locked the chapel in episode 2 isn't talking about how a group of people conspired to fabricate a story*, but how Battler was convinced that the door was truly locked.

*In this instance I'm skeptical that anyone on Rokkenjima even fabricated the story to begin with, since after the patently bogus scene where the door is opened no one ever mentions it again; no one ever says to Battler that it was locked.

And here's a basic example of how Red vs. Gold works:
Gold>Red when: "You can't prove that.", "But I believe it because it's common sense."
Red>Gold when: "You can't prove that.", "But I believe it because it's more fun that way."

And I suppose the reason gamemasters aren't supposed to use Gold too often is because it reveals too much about their true inner heart.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
It doesn't really make a lot of sense that Krauss and to a lesser extent Hideyoshi's supposed deaths aren't considered essential topics in the trial, but that whole trial was ridiculous and if I weren't neck-deep in something else I'd write a trial forgery that follows some actual goddamn legal rules. Arguably, Erika doesn't even have to care who killed (or "killed") those two, as she can still press that Natsuhi was the only possible culprit for the first set of murders. That would obviously mean there's still a killer running around, but I guess Erika doesn't care.
I kinda thought of that trial as a metaphor for the court of public opinion, which as we well know, is hardly fair and rational when determining guilt.

Erika just wants 2 things: to show off and to fuck with Natsuhi. After that, she doesn't care about anything, including the actual truth.

--------------------------------------------------

Random thought: In episode 2, any idea why Rosa wouldn't reveal the fact that Kinzo was dead? It's not like she had any competition left for the inheritance...
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Old 2011-08-30, 17:56   Link #24003
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
I kinda thought of that trial as a metaphor for the court of public opinion, which as we well know, is hardly fair and rational when determining guilt.
Yes, except for the fact that you'd have to be stupid to ignore at least one murder that makes no sense for Natsuhi to perform and one which seems physically impossible for her.

I mean, granted, the Witch Hunters apparently really are that stupid.
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Old 2011-08-30, 18:28   Link #24004
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Yes, except for the fact that you'd have to be stupid to ignore at least one murder that makes no sense for Natsuhi to perform and one which seems physically impossible for her.

I mean, granted, the Witch Hunters apparently really are that stupid.
They already believe that she killed Jessica, so what's the big deal about believing she'd kill Krauss too? And how is one of the murders impossible for her? They both seem completely possible to me, so I'm not even sure which one you're referring to.
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Old 2011-08-30, 18:47   Link #24005
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If Hideyoshi struggled with his killer/"killer," as depicted, how in the world did Natsuhi overpower and kill him? She's not physically strong enough and there's no apparent evidence of Hideyoshi being incapacitated first. It's physically possible that she could've committed the other murders (everyone was asleep, Krauss may have been restrained, etc.), but expecting Natsuhi to Jeet Kune Do a gigantic man into a position where she can backstab him to death stretches credibility.

It's like blaming Maria. Sure, she might not have any alibi, but how the hell?
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Old 2011-08-30, 18:54   Link #24006
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Maria has a gun.
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Old 2011-08-30, 19:00   Link #24007
Cao Ni Ma
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She was speaking on the phone at the time he was killed. It would have been impossible for her unless she was next to him on the phone having a two way conversation with herself while pointing a gun at him. Id be hilarious to see something like that animated

Anyways about the golden truth, I still think its a "truth" made to make someone feel better or to protect them from something that would otherwise hurt them. It kinda makes sense thematically that you can only use it after you learned the truth of what Beatrice was doing.

The chapel scene can be explain in two different ways after ep7. Either Rosa was a culprit/accomplice and she lied about the door to give herself an alibi. Or she wasnt and she did it to deflect some suspicion from someone else.

Same thing with Kinzo. C/A = She lied so that they didnt know that she was the head, which people would believe is sufficient motive to commit the crime. Or she was lying so that the kids wouldnt know that Krauss and Natsuhi where lying for 2 years now.

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Maria has a gun.

Spoiler:


Last thing Krauss saw.

Last edited by Cao Ni Ma; 2011-08-30 at 19:46.
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Old 2011-08-30, 20:18   Link #24008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
I have the advantage of some thematic insight gained from episode 8, and this is what I think:

You're close, but it's not about people lying about things they know to be true; it's about trust in things without certain proof. So in the context of lying, the Gold Truth is generated by the fooled, not the fooler (well, not directly anyway). For example, Will's reference to the "Golden Truth" that locked the chapel in episode 2 isn't talking about how a group of people conspired to fabricate a story*, but how Battler was convinced that the door was truly locked.

*In this instance I'm skeptical that anyone on Rokkenjima even fabricated the story to begin with, since after the patently bogus scene where the door is opened no one ever mentions it again; no one ever says to Battler that it was locked.

And here's a basic example of how Red vs. Gold works:
Gold>Red when: "You can't prove that.", "But I believe it because it's common sense."
Red>Gold when: "You can't prove that.", "But I believe it because it's more fun that way."

--------------------------------------------------

Random thought: In episode 2, any idea why Rosa wouldn't reveal the fact that Kinzo was dead? It's not like she had any competition left for the inheritance...
Point taken. Though I would argue that "they all decided to lie", and "someone was fooled by the lie" are effectively the same thing, though I understand that a major theme in this story is the sentiment of the matter. Also, there's nothing to be skeptical of regarding EP2's deception regarding the chapel door. Piece-Battler was not present when it was opened, but he was clearly told that it was locked until Rosa opened it recently.

And then of course, there's Rosa, Genji, and Ghoda claiming that Shannon went to Kinzo's study, at the same time Battler witnessed Kanon arriving at the guesthouse. :-/

I believe this might be related to your question of why Rosa didn't just "reveal" Kinzo's death, if she knew of it. Rosa has been portrayed as probably the most pragmatic of the adults - she wants to maximize her gains, and is consistently unwilling to risk murder. The inheritance was probably a pittance to all the gold Yasu had promised her.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
If Hideyoshi struggled with his killer/"killer," as depicted, how in the world did Natsuhi overpower and kill him? She's not physically strong enough and there's no apparent evidence of Hideyoshi being incapacitated first. It's physically possible that she could've committed the other murders (everyone was asleep, Krauss may have been restrained, etc.), but expecting Natsuhi to Jeet Kune Do a gigantic man into a position where she can backstab him to death stretches credibility.

It's like blaming Maria. Sure, she might not have any alibi, but how the hell?
I'll agree about Maria, but the game seems to be that in a world where bullets never miss and people don't get wet in the rain, the question of "is that physically likely?" is entirely supplanted by "Is that physically possible?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma View Post
Spoiler:


Last thing Krauss saw.
That is just ... the best thing I've seen all week.
"UUU~ JUST AS PLANNED!!!"
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Old 2011-08-30, 20:26   Link #24009
AuraTwilight
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Seriously, has ANYONE ever looked in that bag of hers? Bitch could have anything in there.
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Old 2011-08-30, 22:00   Link #24010
Renall
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
I'll agree about Maria, but the game seems to be that in a world where bullets never miss and people don't get wet in the rain, the question of "is that physically likely?" is entirely supplanted by "Is that physically possible?"
Natsuhi is consistently portrayed as the most mentally and physically debilitated member of the cast. If it were Eva being framed, I could totally believe it, but Natsuhi ninja-assassinating somebody?

Plus, Hideyoshi didn't recognize his killer, apparently. Again, if it was Natsuhi he presumably would, unless she changed into an erotic catsuit and balaclava in that closet before busting out to Backstab him harder than a World of Warcraft quest mob.
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Old 2011-08-30, 22:23   Link #24011
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By the way Renall I demand you or someone of equal or greater quality write a Forgery describing how Maria kills absolutely everyone using crazy shit she has in her bag.
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Old 2011-08-30, 23:52   Link #24012
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I'm sorry for getting out of subject, but a while ago everyone was talking about Sakutarou, and the matter of whether he was handmade by Rosa or not was brought up again.

Well, I was playing Rondo for the first time and I reached that part when ange finds Sakutarou in Kawabata's cellar. In the VN all you could see was a yellow mess, but in Rondo you can clearly see that there's a bag full of Sakutarous, not only one.

Doesn't that settle Sakutarou as a mass-produced toy? (And, more importantly, shouldn't Ange be facing copyright issues with her books?)

I was just wondering if this had been noticed before. If it has, I apologize.
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Old 2011-08-31, 01:22   Link #24013
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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Point taken. Though I would argue that "they all decided to lie", and "someone was fooled by the lie" are effectively the same thing, though I understand that a major theme in this story is the sentiment of the matter.
Like I said, close. But the important distinction is that the Gold Truth asserts uncertain things to be true, but cannot assert a known falsehood to be true.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
I believe this might be related to your question of why Rosa didn't just "reveal" Kinzo's death, if she knew of it. Rosa has been portrayed as probably the most pragmatic of the adults - she wants to maximize her gains, and is consistently unwilling to risk murder. The inheritance was probably a pittance to all the gold Yasu had promised her.
Maybe, but she already had access to 3 gold bars, a gun, and no legal competition for the inheritance. At that point Yasu shouldn't have anything on her. The only reason Rosa might still listen to Yasu is that she still doesn't know where the rest of the gold is, but then wouldn't cornering Yasu with her gun be the best option? And even still, assuming Rosa is in on things, she already knows Yasu's a murderer and wouldn't trust her. Isn't Rosa pragmatic and cautious enough to just kill Yasu and be happy with the 3 gold bars and the inheritance?

Rosa's actions in Turn are fishy. I mean on the one hand she clearly lies about locks and such, and about Kinzo, but on the other she doesn't trust her fellow liars. She was eager to blame Kanon for Jessica's murder; does Yasu want that? And she has no clear reason to accuse Battler when she full-well knows that he's innocent, especially after she knows that Yasu is dead.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
I'll agree about Maria, but the game seems to be that in a world where bullets never miss and people don't get wet in the rain, the question of "is that physically likely?" is entirely supplanted by "Is that physically possible?"
She never technically missed, but Kyrie failed to kill Eva with a gun. Twice.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
If Hideyoshi struggled with his killer/"killer," as depicted, how in the world did Natsuhi overpower and kill him? She's not physically strong enough and there's no apparent evidence of Hideyoshi being incapacitated first. It's physically possible that she could've committed the other murders (everyone was asleep, Krauss may have been restrained, etc.), but expecting Natsuhi to Jeet Kune Do a gigantic man into a position where she can backstab him to death stretches credibility.

It's like blaming Maria. Sure, she might not have any alibi, but how the hell?
That's true. I was only thinking in terms of her access to him. But, I'll play this game since I've got the time right now.

I'll start by pointing out that what Natsuhi viewed is information that the prosecutors don't have (and probably wouldn't believe). The only other witness was Eva, who didn't show up until after the "who are you" part. All she heard was some commotion in the room, and Hideyoshi saying her name once and then nothing intelligible. Hideyoshi was face down on the bed, crying. Natsuhi sneaked up while he wasn't watching and stabbed him in the back. It didn't kill him instantly, so Eva was able to hear Hideyoshi's death throes. Meanwhile, Natsuhi hid in the closet. It's completely plausible.

Also, I don't know why you're so focused on those two later murders. There really is no mistake in assuming Natsuhi to be the culprit in Hideyoshi's murder that wasn't already made in the trial of the first twilight. The closed room means that everyone accounted for when it was opened has an alibi. The only people not accounted for were Natsuhi, Krauss, Kinzo, and a person X. It's the exact same alibi situation that the first murders had, so we already know that they'll throw out Krauss, Kinzo, and X, leaving Natsuhi as the only possible culprit. Similarly, fake murders were ignored in the first twilight. As were possibilities of suicide, traps, remote killings, and accidents. Thus with all these bad assumptions already made and Knox's rules enforced, Occam's Razor dictates that Natsuhi is the culprit, struggle or no struggle.
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And, more importantly, shouldn't Ange be facing copyright issues with her books?
The mass-produced version is probably not called Sakutarou. Remember, Maria made up the name after receiving it from Rosa.
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Old 2011-08-31, 03:11   Link #24014
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Quote:
Well, I was playing Rondo for the first time and I reached that part when ange finds Sakutarou in Kawabata's cellar. In the VN all you could see was a yellow mess, but in Rondo you can clearly see that there's a bag full of Sakutarous, not only one.
I'd have to see it for myself. There's also the possibility that the original replacement Rosa made got mass-produced after her death.
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Old 2011-08-31, 06:27   Link #24015
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
*In this instance I'm skeptical that anyone on Rokkenjima even fabricated the story to begin with, since after the patently bogus scene where the door is opened no one ever mentions it again; no one ever says to Battler that it was locked.
From Episode 2, as they are leaving:
;「私が真里亞の封筒から鍵を取り出してここを開けるまで!@ 確かにこの扉は施錠されていたッ!!@ で もこの鍵は封筒に入れられて真里亞に預けられていたのよ?!@ しかもそれは昨日のお昼前の話なのよッ?! ?!」\
`"Until I took the key out of Maria's envelope and opened this door,`@` it was definitely locked!!`@` But this key was in the envelope and in Maria's care, right?!`@` And that happened yesterday before noon?!?!"`\
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Old 2011-08-31, 06:46   Link #24016
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
I'd have to see it for myself. There's also the possibility that the original replacement Rosa made got mass-produced after her death.
Looks like it is indeed shown. Here's the background image:
Spoiler for Big Pic:

It kind of ruins the guesswork for newcomers about what mysterious thing Ange saw and how Sakutarou isn't unique (anymore?). At least, the stuffed toy on what Sakutarou is based on. Though Ryukishi giving subtle hints to clarify things might not be such a bad thing.
If Sakutarou was sold in stores while Maria was alive, apparently she never noticed it.
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Old 2011-08-31, 07:47   Link #24017
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Seeing that it looks really out of place! Also everyone not giving a damn about it and Ange's insistence on it might be because she's hallucinating it. ~Magic~

I guess its less likely that Rosa made all of those herself, the red regarding it is still weird though.
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Old 2011-08-31, 08:00   Link #24018
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Or maybe they don't care about because they have no reason to believe it's odd. A person would have to know that Maria had such a stuffed animal and that it was supposed to be unique. Amakusa had no reason to know either. The captain might have known the first, but could have failed to realize the second.
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Old 2011-08-31, 08:15   Link #24019
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In a room full of futons and pillows, a girl is pointing at the only cubicle that has some stuffed lions in it. Amakusa could have done a sassy quip or something about her being too old to be playing around with them.
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Old 2011-08-31, 09:19   Link #24020
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In a room full of futons and pillows, a girl is pointing at the only cubicle that has some stuffed lions in it. Amakusa could have done a sassy quip or something about her being too old to be playing around with them.
Well, sometimes when you point at something that's not very close to you people don't get precisely at what you're pointing at. They might have noticed she was pointing in the general direction of the stuffed lions but not that she was pointing exactly at them. So they might have merely assumed Ange wouldn't care about stuffed lions and therefore wasn't pointing at them, but couldn't see nothing weird in the things near stuffed lions either
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