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Old 2011-08-31, 10:18   Link #24021
naever
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
The mass-produced version is probably not called Sakutarou. Remember, Maria made up the name after receiving it from Rosa.
I was half joking, you are most likely right. Also, now that you mentioned it, the Sakutarou in Ange's books could be the human version too.

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
There's also the possibility that the original replacement Rosa made got mass-produced after her death.
Isn't that unnecessarely complicated?

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Originally Posted by Bluemail View Post
It kind of ruins the guesswork for newcomers about what mysterious thing Ange saw and how Sakutarou isn't unique (anymore?). At least, the stuffed toy on what Sakutarou is based on. Though Ryukishi giving subtle hints to clarify things might not be such a bad thing.
There's a chance that Ryukishi misjudged how clear the picture was in the VN(like I suspect he misjudged how clear his clues on whole where), and this was the way it was supposed to be from the beginning. But that's just speculation.

Anyway, the idea that he might be intentionally slipping more clues through the adaptations and new TIPS fills me with a shy kind of hope. He said he'd be doing something like that in the manga, didn't he?

Do we still have a chance of getting some answers? Do I dare hope?
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Old 2011-08-31, 10:30   Link #24022
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Quote:
There's also the possibility that the original replacement Rosa made got mass-produced after her death.
Isn't that unnecessarely complicated?
Considering the Rokkenjima incident got popular it would denote bad taste to massproduce the toy of one of the victims but there's people who wouldn't care at all about this.

Though I tend to think Sakutaro wasn't made by Rose. He was merely a stuffed toy she bought for Maria, probably the kind that's not that popular so she wouldn't see it in any toy shop.
On the other side it's also possible after handmaking Sakutaro for Maria Rosa considered having her company producing it. If I'm not wrong Rosa's company produced clothes but I guess they could have tried to add a stuffed toy to her own production (maybe Rosa though since Maria liked Sakutaro so much that meant that toy was going to be a secure selling success...).
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Old 2011-08-31, 10:43   Link #24023
Cao Ni Ma
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That stuffed animal is a special stuffed animal
Made by Rosa for her daughter's birthday, and in the entire world, the only
*choke*

Considering how the red truth was portrayed in this episode, it really looks like she made more than one. The issue is whether or not the ones Ange found where made by her or someone else. Its kinda weird that in the futon shop that only sells futons and pillows has a bag full of lions just hanging out there.
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Old 2011-08-31, 11:12   Link #24024
jjblue1
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Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma View Post
That stuffed animal is a special stuffed animal
Made by Rosa for her daughter's birthday, and in the entire world, the only
*choke*

Considering how the red truth was portrayed in this episode, it really looks like she made more than one. The issue is whether or not the ones Ange found where made by her or someone else. Its kinda weird that in the futon shop that only sells futons and pillows has a bag full of lions just hanging out there.
In my country there's a way of thinking that's called 'climbing over mirrors'. In short is picking up an explanation that's extremely complicate to justify something that shouldn't be justified but taken as it is.

So here's my 'climbing on the mirrors' attempt:

Beatrice didn't lie when she said Rosa made Sakutaro for her birthday and that he is unique as in Sakutaro was really made by Rosa and therefore he's one of a kind. However Rosa (or someone else) later decided to mass produce the Sakutaro. The mass produced Sakutaro aren't handmade by Rosa so Sakutaro stay as the only one who's handmade by her and therefore is unique. However, if Ange were to see one of the mass produced Sakutaro she might end up mistaking it for a mirror copy of the real Sakutaro. Since Ange gave Maria the new Sakutaro in a meta/magic scene that might exist only in her mind (or Toya if he is the one behind Meta Ange existence) Maria might have been fooled into accepting what wasn't Sakutaro but just a copy, merely because the one who handed 'Sakutaro' though what was being handed was Sakutaro and therefore the object handed looked exactly like Sakutaro.

... though I have fun thinking at all those alternate solutions what annoys me in Umineko is that even the most obvious truth can't be taken at face value and IN THE END we're rarely given the chance to find out if our alternate solution was right.

Personally I preferred to think Rosa had made another Sakutaro and by mistake had left it in the ship and Ange merely found it... however I doubt she handmade that many...
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Old 2011-08-31, 11:21   Link #24025
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma View Post
I guess its less likely that Rosa made all of those herself, the red regarding it is still weird though.
I still don't get why it was that unlikely. She had a clothing brand and spent most of her time away from home...also she had people working for her. This could have become the one proof that she isn't a failure at design...maybe she wanted to test the design on her daughter before releasing it.

EDIT: Took too long while posting ^^
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Old 2011-08-31, 11:24   Link #24026
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The alternative of course is that the ep4 sequence of events is just a fiction itself and Sakutarou dolls were only mass-produced later after Ange started writing books about him. She was thus able to "restore" Sakutarou to life by writing about him.

It's a ~~~metaphor~~~

Assuming the part where she became a writer isn't also fiction, anyway.
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Old 2011-08-31, 11:25   Link #24027
naever
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Considering the Rokkenjima incident got popular it would denote bad taste to massproduce the toy of one of the victims but there's people who wouldn't care at all about this.

Though I tend to think Sakutaro wasn't made by Rose. He was merely a stuffed toy she bought for Maria, probably the kind that's not that popular so she wouldn't see it in any toy shop.
On the other side it's also possible after handmaking Sakutaro for Maria Rosa considered having her company producing it. If I'm not wrong Rosa's company produced clothes but I guess they could have tried to add a stuffed toy to her own production (maybe Rosa though since Maria liked Sakutaro so much that meant that toy was going to be a secure selling success...).
Maria liking Sakutarou shouldn't be much of a guarantee. Stuffed toys are very personal to kids and their tastes vary much. Also, Maria is a kid with particularly bizarre tastes, and Rosa is well aware of that. Also, the idea that her fashion oriented company would just start producing toys sounds strange to me.

Though, when you put things that way, I can (unfortunately) believe that there would be people morbid enough to turn a famous murder case victim's toy into merchandising...

Still, It's easier for me to believe she just bought the toy and told Maria a little white lie. It fits with what I understand of her character.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma View Post
That stuffed animal is a special stuffed animal
Made by Rosa for her daughter's birthday, and in the entire world, the only
*choke*

Considering how the red truth was portrayed in this episode, it really looks like she made more than one. The issue is whether or not the ones Ange found where made by her or someone else. Its kinda weird that in the futon shop that only sells futons and pillows has a bag full of lions just hanging out there.
I guess it's a matter of how the red truth works, again. Does choking on it invalidates only the bit you couldn't say or the whole sentence?

I'll have to check the other two cases where this hapens, the one about asumu in ep4 and the one said by bern in ep7 (am I missing any?) But I think they don't help much. IIRC, the first is a sentence that doesn't really say anything without the missing part. You could say that what's in red is true, but it just doesn't say much. And second one is more complicated, because what does get to be said in red is a complete sentence on it's own.

Actually, now that I think about it, if you believe that Sakutarou was made by Rosa, you would necessarely have to believe that the ep7 tea party is true as well. Hm...

Last edited by naever; 2011-08-31 at 11:53.
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Old 2011-08-31, 11:28   Link #24028
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Originally Posted by rogerpepitone View Post
From Episode 2, as they are leaving:
;「私が真里亞の封筒から鍵を取り出してここを開けるまで!@ 確かにこの扉は施錠されていたッ!!@ で もこの鍵は封筒に入れられて真里亞に預けられていたのよ?!@ しかもそれは昨日のお昼前の話なのよッ?! ?!」\
`"Until I took the key out of Maria's envelope and opened this door,`@` it was definitely locked!!`@` But this key was in the envelope and in Maria's care, right?!`@` And that happened yesterday before noon?!?!"`\
Yeah thanks for correcting me. I figured out I was quite wrong yesterday. There is no doubt that Rosa and the others lied about it.

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Originally Posted by naever View Post
Anyway, the idea that he might be intentionally slipping more clues through the adaptations and new TIPS fills me with a shy kind of hope. He said he'd be doing something like that in the manga, didn't he?

Do we still have a chance of getting some answers? Do I dare hope?
Yeah he basically said that Umineko is best understood when experienced in its various renditions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma View Post
That stuffed animal is a special stuffed animal
Made by Rosa for her daughter's birthday, and in the entire world, the only
*choke*

Considering how the red truth was portrayed in this episode, it really looks like she made more than one. The issue is whether or not the ones Ange found where made by her or someone else. Its kinda weird that in the futon shop that only sells futons and pillows has a bag full of lions just hanging out there.
Red truth is subjective. In this situation it's objectively false. I doubt Rosa handmade Sakutarou, and if she did and had it mass produced later then it wouldn't be much better; it would make the handmade one a lot less special.

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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
On the other side it's also possible after handmaking Sakutaro for Maria Rosa considered having her company producing it. If I'm not wrong Rosa's company produced clothes but I guess they could have tried to add a stuffed toy to her own production (maybe Rosa though since Maria liked Sakutaro so much that meant that toy was going to be a secure selling success...).
There's no decent way of getting around the idea that it was never unique to begin with. Unless...

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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Considering the Rokkenjima incident got popular it would denote bad taste to massproduce the toy of one of the victims but there's people who wouldn't care at all about this.
I got it. Rosa made Sakutarou like the honest and loving mom she was. Then after the incident one of the fucking Witch Hunters found out about Sakutarou and happened to own a toy manufacturing company. He mass produced Maria's doll Sakutarou to sell at Rokkenjima conventions and they sold like motherfucking Narutard headbands.

Fucking Witch Hunters.
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Old 2011-08-31, 12:01   Link #24029
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Would anyone besides Tohya, Ange, Eva, and maybe Kawabata actually have any idea what Maria's Sakutarou looked like? Based on Ootsuki's reaction in Alliance, none of the Witch Hunters have ever seen Maria's diary, so the only description they could possibly go off of would be the one written in Alliance itself. And since Alliance was released well after the mass-produced Sakutarous, there's no way it could be the source material.
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Old 2011-08-31, 12:02   Link #24030
Renall
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
I got it. Rosa made Sakutarou like the honest and loving mom she was. Then after the incident one of the fucking Witch Hunters found out about Sakutarou and happened to own a toy manufacturing company. He mass produced Maria's doll Sakutarou to sell at Rokkenjima conventions and they sold like motherfucking Narutard headbands.

Fucking Witch Hunters.
This is actually kind of the impression I had of them going into writing Redaction. Crass, ghoulish cosplay of real people could only be improved (in sheer audacity) by mass-producing the one true and genuine expression of a mother's love Rosa ever seemed to provide her messed-up murdered daughter.

What I'm trying to say is these are probably not good people.
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Old 2011-08-31, 12:06   Link #24031
Wanderer
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Would anyone besides Tohya, Ange, Eva, and maybe Kawabata actually have any idea what Maria's Sakutarou looked like? Based on Ootsuki's reaction in Alliance, none of the Witch Hunters have ever seen Maria's diary, so the only description they could possibly go off of would be the one written in Alliance itself. And since Alliance was released well after the mass-produced Sakutarous, there's no way it could be the source material.
Maria was known for walking around her neighborhood carrying her stuffed animal.

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
This is actually kind of the impression I had of them going into writing Redaction. Crass, ghoulish cosplay of real people could only be improved (in sheer audacity) by mass-producing the one true and genuine expression of a mother's love Rosa ever seemed to provide her messed-up murdered daughter.
Yeah, it probably came into my mind because I read about it from you somewhere.
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Old 2011-08-31, 12:15   Link #24032
jjblue1
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Red truth is subjective. In this situation it's objectively false. I doubt Rosa handmade Sakutarou, and if she did and had it mass produced later then it wouldn't be much better; it would make the handmade one a lot less special.
Well, I think it's a matter of perspective. If Maria didn't know it would still be special to her. If Rosa said, "since Sakutaro is so special to you, mom's company is going to make little brothers for Sakutaro which will sell to other children. If it'll work mama will have much more time to spend with Maria."
Sakutaro would still unique as the others are Sakutaro's little brothers, Maria would be happy because undirectly she and Sakutaro are helping mom and Rosa could get away with it.

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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
I got it. Rosa made Sakutarou like the honest and loving mom she was. Then after the incident one of the fucking Witch Hunters found out about Sakutarou and happened to own a toy manufacturing company. He mass produced Maria's doll Sakutarou to sell at Rokkenjima conventions and they sold like motherfucking Narutard headbands.

Fucking Witch Hunters.
Honestly that would be my best theory. It would match with Sakutaro being unique because handmade and one of a kind at the time of Maria's death and I'm sure people might consider selling it as a tourist souvenir at Rokkenjima conventions or even in Niijima. Maybe even the captain sell them?
'Want to make a trip to Rokkenjima? Then why don't you buy the toy of one of the victims?'
Also they could be fake Sakutaro that are sold as if they were real to collectors of things related to the Rokkenjima massacre...

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Originally Posted by naever View Post
Maria liking Sakutarou shouldn't be much of a guarantee. Stuffed toys are very personal to kids and their tastes vary much. Also, Maria is a kid with particularly bizarre tastes, and Rosa is well aware of that.
I agree but maybe she was that desperate or maybe someone saw Sakutaro and suggested the idea to her.
"Oh, are you going to give that to your daughter as a present? It's lovely I wish I could buy one for my daughter as well?"

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Originally Posted by naever View Post
Also, the idea that her fashion oriented company would just start producing toys sounds strange to me.
They produce clothes and are a small company with financial troubles. Producing stuffed animals wouldn't be too troublesome for them and here small companies in trouble sometimes try to help themselves trying new products that are still close to what they were producing.

If they do things well you'll see them on TV in some program praising their smart idea... if they fail you'll never see them again.

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Originally Posted by naever View Post
Still, It's easier for me to believe she just bought the toy and told Maria a little white lie. It fits with what I understand of her character.
*nods* that's also possible but it would make that red truth a complete lie.

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Originally Posted by naever View Post
Actually, now that I think about it, if you believe that Sakutarou was made by Rosa, you would necessarely have to believe that the ep7 tea party is true as well. Hm...
Uh? Why is that?
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Old 2011-08-31, 12:19   Link #24033
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Would anyone besides Tohya, Ange, Eva, and maybe Kawabata actually have any idea what Maria's Sakutarou looked like? Based on Ootsuki's reaction in Alliance, none of the Witch Hunters have ever seen Maria's diary, so the only description they could possibly go off of would be the one written in Alliance itself. And since Alliance was released well after the mass-produced Sakutarous, there's no way it could be the source material.
Well, according to Ep 4 Maria carried Sakutaro around even though Rosa had told her not to. She had it with herself when she ended up at the police as well. So we've lot of people who might have noticed it.
The lady that talked with Rosa even said they knew Maria went to buy dinner by herself too often was because lot of people recognized her due to the lion she carried around. Sakutaro has a simple design so really, it was easy to find out who could describe Sakutaro close enough to reproduce him.
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Old 2011-08-31, 12:45   Link #24034
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Well, according to Ep 4 Maria carried Sakutaro around even though Rosa had told her not to. She had it with herself when she ended up at the police as well. So we've lot of people who might have noticed it.
The lady that talked with Rosa even said they knew Maria went to buy dinner by herself too often was because lot of people recognized her due to the lion she carried around. Sakutaro has a simple design so really, it was easy to find out who could describe Sakutaro close enough to reproduce him.
But why would a random stuffed animal that a little girl happened to own a year or two before she died become a focus of interest for a Witch Hunter? There isn't anything connecting it to the incident except Maria's diary and Tohya's novels, and it's not anything weird for a girl to have a favorite stuffed animal.

I suppose you could argue ghoulish obsession, and assume that somehow a Witch Hunter found one of the small group of people who knew Maria and interrogated them without being told to get lost. But then, think back. Can you remember a stuffed animal you saw several years ago? How about well enough to reproduce it perfectly? Or can you only remember on the level of "it was some kind of yellow lion, I think"?
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Old 2011-08-31, 13:01   Link #24035
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But why would a random stuffed animal that a little girl happened to own a year or two before she died become a focus of interest for a Witch Hunter? There isn't anything connecting it to the incident except Maria's diary and Tohya's novels, and it's not anything weird for a girl to have a favorite stuffed animal.
There's people who would collect weird things. Also maybe someone told Maria said the lion was a talking lion and she was a witch so Sakutaro toys became the replica of the magic lion of the youngest witch of the Ushiromiya family

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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
I suppose you could argue ghoulish obsession, and assume that somehow a Witch Hunter found one of the small group of people who knew Maria and interrogated them without being told to get lost. But then, think back. Can you remember a stuffed animal you saw several years ago? How about well enough to reproduce it perfectly? Or can you only remember on the level of "it was some kind of yellow lion, I think"?
Technically this work for Ange also. She saw Sakutaro few times and when she was a kid. Although we see the pic and recognize it for Sakutaro I'm not so sure Ange could recognize it for sure. So maybe she had seen something that resembled many Sakutaro and though to 'hand one of them' to Maria.

The meta, as all the meta didn't really take place in the real world, so as long as Ange believe that was Sakutaro, that was Sakutaro in the meta world.
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Old 2011-08-31, 13:09   Link #24036
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Technically this work for Ange also. She saw Sakutaro few times and when she was a kid. Although we see the pic and recognize it for Sakutaro I'm not so sure Ange could recognize it for sure. So maybe she had seen something that resembled many Sakutaro and though to 'hand one of them' to Maria.
Possibly, but Alliance!Ange also had Maria's diary, which had a bunch of descriptions and illustrations in it. So she did have more than her own memory to go on, even if the illustrations were crappy ones made by a nine-year-old.
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Old 2011-08-31, 13:27   Link #24037
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Possibly, but Alliance!Ange also had Maria's diary, which had a bunch of descriptions and illustrations in it. So she did have more than her own memory to go on, even if the illustrations were crappy ones made by a nine-year-old.
I wouldn't rely on a draw to recognize something for sure in the real world unless the one who draw it is really good. I aknowledge the stuffed lion Ange saw and Sakutaro were likely to be similar but not necessarily identical.

Of course it's possible that Umineko couldn't care less about this sort of details. Ryukishi admitted he didn't care about the fact his characters should get wet when they walk out the house. Should he care about the odds of exactly reproducing a stuffed lion? We'll never know... -_-
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Old 2011-08-31, 13:43   Link #24038
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Quote:
But why would a random stuffed animal that a little girl happened to own a year or two before she died become a focus of interest for a Witch Hunter? There isn't anything connecting it to the incident except Maria's diary and Tohya's novels, and it's not anything weird for a girl to have a favorite stuffed animal.
You're asking this of a group of obsessive otaku who come from a country where people fuck pillows with pictures of girls on them.
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Old 2011-08-31, 13:59   Link #24039
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I put out the idea as a joke. But since it's somehow garnered some serious discussion it's got me thinking too.

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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
But why would a random stuffed animal that a little girl happened to own a year or two before she died become a focus of interest for a Witch Hunter? There isn't anything connecting it to the incident except Maria's diary and Tohya's novels, and it's not anything weird for a girl to have a favorite stuffed animal.

I suppose you could argue ghoulish obsession, and assume that somehow a Witch Hunter found one of the small group of people who knew Maria and interrogated them without being told to get lost. But then, think back. Can you remember a stuffed animal you saw several years ago? How about well enough to reproduce it perfectly? Or can you only remember on the level of "it was some kind of yellow lion, I think"?
Maria is the most mysterious person of the incident; she's the "writer" of the first two bottle stories. After some relatively easy research for the obsessive Witch Hunters (who are probably wealthy and have a lot of resources), they would know about how this girl was well-known in her neighborhood for always having a certain stuffed animal with her which she played make-believe with. The only real jump is people knowing what it looks like, but all that would take is one photograph- a fairly big jump, yes, but possible; especially if Eva actually sold pictures of her family.

So it basically all hinges on whether a photograph of Maria with Sakutarou ended up in the hands of the Witch Hunters.
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Old 2011-08-31, 14:16   Link #24040
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
The only real jump is people knowing what it looks like, but all that would take is one photograph- a fairly big jump, yes, but possible; especially if Eva actually sold pictures of her family.

So it basically all hinges on whether a photograph of Maria with Sakutarou ended up in the hands of the Witch Hunters.
I'm not sure if Eva would sell pictures of her family but when someone dies in such way his pictures usually end up on newspapers and tv. If by chance Maria's picture had also Sakutaro in it, Witch Hunters have a pic of him.
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