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Old 2011-09-05, 17:18   Link #24201
jjblue1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
2) the writing style is the same found in Maria's diary AND the letters whom are sure to have been sent before the incident. Maria isn't supposed to have met Battler in years. Additionally Ange was given the diary directly from the police. No one except Beatrice is supposed to have been in possession of enough money to spare for those bank accounts.
I can't find where it was written the police handed the diary to Ange...
But still I think the part of Ange's story was Toya's idea of what Ange was doing so the diary wouldn't exist or would exist but he made up what was inside.

Same for the bank accounts. Ange and the people who received the money wouldn't have said it to the press so there's no way he learnt this from the media.

Unless Yasu told him she left some money for the family of the people she were going to kill I think it's more likely among the things he vaguely remember there was a number connected to a bank account with that PIN (a bank account is in Ep 7 Tea Party also, though we aren't told the PIN) and made up that explanation to connect it to the number that came up from his memory and that showed up written on a door in Ep 3.

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
3) It was said that investigations were made as to check if the handwriting was that of Maria and it was confirmed it wasn't. It isn't reasonable to think they didn't check the handwriting of all the rest of the family while they were at it. And more importantly Ange could have recognized her brother's handwriting. This could be explained with Tohya having suffered brain damage therefore becoming a different person, except read point 2.
No idea if Ange could have recognized her brother's handwriting. At 6 it would have been too difficult for her, when she grew older it would have been harder for her to remember it. The only memento she seems to have from Battler are those hair accessories so it's possible she doesn't have samples of Battler's handwriting.

(Also I still think the whole story about Ange's travel existed only in Toya's mind but that's just me...)
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Old 2011-09-05, 17:19   Link #24202
Dirty_Harry
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Same here, although I think that tea party was showed to us through Toya's eyes again, even if MetaBattler is not around and Piece Battler does surprisingly little.

To me Bern is Toya's creation so the fact she's here to me is a reference that again what we're seeing is something through Toya's eyes.
Meta-Ange seen Bern, and she had never seen Toya. Unless you say that Ange from 1998 is fictitious.

Quote:
The episode 7 Tea Party could have been written by anyone, because by episode 7 there's enough knowledge available to the public to do so; or it may have been written by no one, and was just a frightening idea Ange/Touya thought about on their own. In any case, I think the episode 7 Tea Party wasn't a fictional forgery per se, but an actual theory developed as evidence surfaced in the real world.
As theorists could learn so much information about the baby from 19 years ago? What is the source of information?
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Old 2011-09-05, 17:21   Link #24203
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Originally Posted by Dirty_Harry View Post
I had this idea before, but this does not explain the scene on the rooftop of Ange and Bernkastel.
My explanation is that Ange disappeared. Toya worried about it and the meeting between Ange and Bern was the 'explanation' his mind or his subconscious came up with.

In short that scene is meta... although it might not look as such.
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Old 2011-09-05, 17:22   Link #24204
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You guys I just solved everything. First, my semi-serious idea:

Every depiction of 1998 is a forgery. Amakusa Juuza is a self-insert alternate version of Toya. It's awesome.

---

Now for my troll idea:

Toya Hachijou...is OTHER BATTLER. He wasn't actually stillborn, but was raised by...uh, someone else. Asumu's family or something. And he grew up to hate the Ushiromiyas all villainously and such. He did the murders, pretended to be Natsuhi's baby to troll her on the phone, and even mass-produced Sakutarou in order to spite Rosa's and Maria's relationship. He did absolutely everything. He managed to be on the island by taking up the free spot Shkanon allows, killed Battler, and took his place. Washing up later and being found by Ikuko, he took up the identity of Toya Hachijou, and reading the Message Bottles and writing his own Forgeries convinced him that he was actually Battler. Everything he remembered was pretty much entirely untrue because Amnesia doesn't fucking work that way. Everything about the logistics of Umineko is solved. And Ange was never reunited with her brother in any sense. Screw her.
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Old 2011-09-05, 17:30   Link #24205
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Not to mention the fact that we know that the EP 3-6 was written by Touya/ Ikuko, because Ange met Ikuko in EP 6. But by the end of EP 8 that never happened.
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Old 2011-09-05, 17:36   Link #24206
Jan-Poo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
No idea if Ange could have recognized her brother's handwriting. At 6 it would have been too difficult for her, when she grew older it would have been harder for her to remember it. The only memento she seems to have from Battler are those hair accessories so it's possible she doesn't have samples of Battler's handwriting.
There must be something left with Battler's handwriting for Ange to check. He was still attending school and he lived in the same house with her little sister. He must have had at least a notebook or something that he used for his homeworks. Ange only needed to go to her brother's room to get it.

It would be strange if she treasured that much Maria's diary but not her own brother's belongings.

oh and:

Quote:
`When the police had been searching the family's possessions, they had collected a large amount of junk.`@
`After the investigation had finished, these had been politely returned to the Ushiromiya family.`@
Ange says this when talking about how she got the stake, but I guess it works for the diary too.
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Old 2011-09-05, 17:37   Link #24207
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
The problem is that Ryuukishi jumps from a symbolic intepretation to another without notice. See fot example the Chiester: they are guns, they are ceramic bunnies, they are computers...

There doesn't seem to be any logic connection between the three things, they just happen to be associated to all of them.
This "jumping around" behaviour can be also noted in his narration, when the narrator is at one time Battler, and then a 3rd party person, and then Jessica... and so on. All of this in a seamless manner, without any notice.

I think the metaworld could be even a dozen of different things...
I think the symbolism we see in Umineko, more than traditional symbolism is psychological one.

Toya vaguely remembered that people were killed using winchesters and that there was a connection with Maria and Beatrice. It's possible that the media had mentioned about how Maria carried the bunnies to school... or it's possible she had them on Rokkenjima and told the cousins 'before were 4 but then one died'.

Logic wouldn't connect cute ceramic bunnies to gun but subconscious has no problems to make this connection (dreams are a pretty example of the absurd connections a mind can make).

So in the end his mind had Maria's cute bunnies becoming the magical weapons of the culprit and therefore replace the winchesters.

The fact that they're computers is possible due to another connection.
The 7 sisters are based part on stake shaped paperweights and human servants. The fact they're partly human based gives them a brain.

The Chiesters however are based on glass figures and weapons. They're objects. What's the object that looks as if it has almost a brain? A computer.

And here you've the third connection.

Of course that's just my vision. I tend to look at Umineko as if it was a dream whose symbolic scenes need to be interpretated through psychology but that's just my approach.

Also psychology doesn't give you definite answers but just possibilities so I might be completely wrong.
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Old 2011-09-05, 17:46   Link #24208
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Logic wouldn't connect cute ceramic bunnies to gun but subconscious has no problems to make this connection (dreams are a pretty example of the absurd connections a mind can make).
You are just stating there is no logical connection then. In a dream anything could become connected. You are not really showing that there is a connection with this argument.

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The 7 sisters are based part on stake shaped paperweights and human servants. The fact they're partly human based gives them a brain.
You are "climbing on mirrors" here.
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Old 2011-09-05, 18:04   Link #24209
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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
I think it's quite reasonable to assume that this is what happened on those two days in 1986 from Eva's perspective...that it's actually the same truth that is in Eva's diary. It's just presented through someone who is ot interested in a sensible, emotional ending...just in drawing the most cruel solution out of those events. This has always been presented through Bernkastel, but would also be fitting for many witch hunters...because let's admit it, many of us here are very much the same.
The idea that the tea party could be in truth that was written in Eva's diary is interesting. If eva wrote it shor after the incident took place she was likely pretty bitter toward Kirye and Rudolf and have no love for them at the memont.

Also she might have not known their side of the story.

In short her truth is biased, even though it can be sort of factually accurated. It's kind of like Kinzo's truth in Ep 7... he presents himself as a guy who was correct and not interest in the gold but in the tea party it's implied he might have been the one suggesting to steal the gold.

If we believe what'sa said in tea party Kinzo's truth contained some truth, there was the gold, a riot between Italians and Japanese ensued, he and Beatrice survived, but the heart of the people was different.

His superior office wasn't so evil and greedy, though he might have not liked him and honestly believed he was evil and greedy, which is why he described him as such. As well he could have removed the idea of suggesting to steal the gold due to the trauma of seeing so many people die.

In the same way Eva might be telling the truth as she see it.
She didn't mean to shot at Natsuhi but maybe she was pointing the gun at her, she was nervous, perceived a movement of Natsuhi as an aggression and shot point blank at her, killing her. Krauss more or less met the same end.

Rosa wasn't so mean, she panicked because she viewed the thing as Eva and hideyoshi killing people for what looked like no good reason and maybe started threatening people with her weapon.

Eva, who was under shock and didn't really mean to kill anyone, viewed her behaviour as her being mean.

Kirye might have seen in them all a danger and shot at the three of them then, in order not to be arrested, might have decided to cover up everything getting rid of witnesses and bodies with the bomb.

I'm making up this as I write so it's likely an explanation full of holes, but it's a possible alternate explanation that don't deny Eva's truth, just it's heart.

I've to work out why Kirye and Rudolf would have massacred everyone else, maybe they still felt threatened by the fact they could spoke against them... anyway this is just the embrion of a theory, not a real theory so don't be too cruel with it, okay?

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
So I'd assume that this is just a metaphorical scene that leads up to the metaphorical meeting between young Ange and BATTLER in the meta-chapel. She is devastated after people around her have confronted her with the "Rudolph/Kyrie culprit theory" and so she reverts back to a little girl who wants nothing more than her big brother to comfort her.
I think Ange is the representation of Battler's guilt.
He didn't save Ange's parents, he didn't return to her, if he were to tell her the truth it would be an unpleasant truth. Still he understand Ange might wish for all those things because likely a side of him had wished for them as well.

Ergo if Toya can come to an agreement with himself as in: okay, someone I loved killed someone else I loved but now they're death and telling the truth would only hurt more the people involved (Nanjo's and the servants' parents would be informed their relative kept Kinzo's death hidden... I think it's a crime... Ange would know her parents were directly involved in a murder... it's not something good to know) so let keep it for myself he still have some troubles to swallow it and to accept that others would swallow it.

For Ange it must be troublesome not to know the truth, likely she wanted to know it but how could he tell her?

So there's that whole meta about Battler insisting is more important to remember the good sides of his relatives instead than the drama.

It's what he wants to do and what he hopes Ange will do, though likely Ange isn't really present with him. It's just a meta happening in his head, another battle between his wish to let the truth be known and the wish to keep it hidden and possibly forget it, mixed with his guilt and worry for Ange.
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Old 2011-09-05, 18:09   Link #24210
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Since we're on the subject of Chiesters, do I remember correctly that there was a joke about them running some version of Windows in EP4 or EP6?

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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
The idea that the tea party could be in truth that was written in Eva's diary is interesting. If eva wrote it shor after the incident took place she was likely pretty bitter toward Kirye and Rudolf and have no love for them at the memont.

Also she might have not known their side of the story.

In short her truth is biased, even though it can be sort of factually accurated. It's kind of like Kinzo's truth in Ep 7... he presents himself as a guy who was correct and not interest in the gold but in the tea party it's implied he might have been the one suggesting to steal the gold.
Or, the diary is the facts of what Eva observed, but the tea party contains both that and Eva's interpretation of it. Since Ange saw Eva's interpretation first, when the diary was confirmed in red and it matched up with part of the tea party, she was tricked into believing it confirmed everything Bernkastel showed her.
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Old 2011-09-05, 18:17   Link #24211
jjblue1
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
You are just stating there is no logical connection then. In a dream anything could become connected. You are not really showing that there is a connection with this argument.

You are "climbing on mirrors" here.
I know but my vision of Umineko is that it's not a logical world as we would mean it but a psychological world.
Most of it is metaphor or symbolism so the connections aren't really matematical ones but more fantastic ones like when the magic scenes are used as interpretation for the real murders (Shannon and Beato fighting are supposed to represent the internal conflict of Yasu).

Sadly I for first find that psychology isn't a secure key of interpretation. You can connect bunnies and winchesters and computers in other ways.

Maybe at the time there was a videogame with murdering bunnies going around with guns. It'll work just the same for the subconscious.

I considered that interpretation because Umineko mentions winchesters being around many times, Maria's bunnies are also mentioned as well as her connection with Beatrice and Toya uses a pc so they're all things he was familiar with and could connect to create the Chiesters in his mind (also Battler might have loved girls in bunny suit so the connection with Maria's bunnies was purely coincidental).

I don't really think you can sort magic with logic though. You either ignore it because 'well, magic doesn't exist' and make a different claim as Virgilia suggested or use it as a metaphoric representation (another suggestion of Virgilia) but you can't find a real logic explanation for it because well, the Chiesters never existed... -_- (unless we assume someone wore a bunny suit while going around killing people...)
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Old 2011-09-05, 18:36   Link #24212
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Psychology uses the same logic to concatenate their ideas and theories.
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Old 2011-09-05, 18:40   Link #24213
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Quote:
Since we're on the subject of Chiesters, do I remember correctly that there was a joke about them running some version of Windows in EP4 or EP6?
Exactly correct.
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Old 2011-09-05, 18:41   Link #24214
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
There must be something left with Battler's handwriting for Ange to check. He was still attending school and he lived in the same house with her little sister. He must have had at least a notebook or something that he used for his homeworks. Ange only needed to go to her brother's room to get it.

It would be strange if she treasured that much Maria's diary but not her own brother's belongings.
Well, I find hard to think that much at all this because I tend to think at Ange's story as at something Toya made up when he tried to guess how Ange was living anyway:

The police likely checked the writing with samples from all the Ushiromiya members whose bodies weren't found, not just with Eva. Eva refused to explain what happened so the police might have thought she was covering up for herself or for someone who survived.
Since Eva didn't explain what had happened it was possible to think someone else escaped the explosion.
If bits of Battler weren't found is possible to assume he was still alive and Eva was covering up for him.

Ergo I doubt the police checked only Maria & Eva's handwriting.
Assuming the original plan wanted to kill Eva too as stated in the messages the culprit should have been someone else so the police would have to check. Maybe they even checked the people for which they found bits of them in case they wanted to kill anyone but had ended up being killed for unknown reasons.

If battler wrote the messages and also on Maria's diary this would mean Battler met Maria in the past. On Rokkenjima. When it's known he didn't go there for 6 years. And told Maria he was Beatrice. I'm not sure it's believable.

Otherwise he must have found a way to write in Maria's diary without Maria's knowing, stuffs that were complete lies.

Quote:
On that page was a handwritten paragraph beginning with 'to my beloved witch apprentice'.
......And at the end, there was a signature in katakana that said Beatrice.
"Th, that is.........?"
The instant he glanced at it, his face went pale.
......She knew the answer before asking, but Ange asked it aloud anyways.
"Does the handwriting in the paragraph on this page match the handwriting in the message bottle...?"
"B, but, umm......I, I must take this home and investigate more......P, pardon me for asking, but what in the world is this book?! Where did you get it?!"
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Ange says this when talking about how she got the stake, but I guess it works for the diary too.
This sort of thing is why i think the part about Ange exists all in Toya's mind. I doubt Eva would have let her keep such thing. It belonged to Kinzo, not to Ange's parents, and could have been dangerous for a child of six. The same goes for opening her parents' letters, which could have had inside things it was better Ange would not read, or to keep her mother's diary that had such an unpleasant content.

Eva did her best to keep Ange isolated from the truth. Ange didn't even know who were the popular singers. But she can get her hands on Rokkenjima mementos of this sort. It's weird. Not impossible but... weird.

As for not keeping Battler's stuffs. Theoretically Ange was Battler's heir. Battler didn't live in her home though, so it's possible she didn't have much about him at home or never had the chance to get it.

First she was with the Sumadera... who are so not nice people, then she moved with Eva but ended up having a troubled relation with her.

Eva needed money and was the legal guardian of Ange. It's possible she sold most of Battler's stuff. Maybe she kept something she though she would give to Ange when she would be older but after their relationship went downhill those stuffs either were tossed away or store and never given to Ange.

The only memento Ange seems to have are the hair ornaments. In fact she says it's the only thing she can use as vessel to call back Battler.

If there's something else it never get mentioned. I'm not ruling out she can have something else but there are no clues about it.
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Old 2011-09-05, 18:48   Link #24215
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Originally Posted by Dirty_Harry View Post
Not to mention the fact that we know that the EP 3-6 was written by Touya/ Ikuko, because Ange met Ikuko in EP 6. But by the end of EP 8 that never happened.

That's why I think Ange is sort of fictional. In Umineko she has 3 different ending:
1) she dies at the end of Ep 4 during the fight with the Sumadera
2) she never reach Rokkenjima though she moved to get there and killed Juuza and the captain of the boat
3) she never tried to go on Rokkenjima, became a writer and later met Toya

Also if you pic up ending 1 or 2 there are two versions of her travel
1) she didn't manage to met Hachijo
2) she met Hachijo.

It isn't realistically possible that Ange could have at the same time so many realities so they have to be theories about what had happened to the real Ange.

However if the truth is unknown no theory can be disproved and they can coexist in a catbox named 'Ange's destiny after Eva's death'.

Ange's fate is merely in a different cat box from the one of what had happened to Rokkenjima but it's still a cat box and Toya can try and make theories for it too.
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Old 2011-09-05, 18:57   Link #24216
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
You guys I just solved everything. First, my semi-serious idea:

Every depiction of 1998 is a forgery. Amakusa Juuza is a self-insert alternate version of Toya. It's awesome.
Probably some facts of 1998 are true... like the fact that Eva survived to the Rokkenjima explosion and died in 1998... or that Ange was bullied... but I think fiction starts more or less from the moment Ange climbed on top of the building.

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Now for my troll idea:

Toya Hachijou...is OTHER BATTLER. He wasn't actually stillborn, but was raised by...uh, someone else. Asumu's family or something. And he grew up to hate the Ushiromiyas all villainously and such. He did the murders, pretended to be Natsuhi's baby to troll her on the phone, and even mass-produced Sakutarou in order to spite Rosa's and Maria's relationship. He did absolutely everything. He managed to be on the island by taking up the free spot Shkanon allows, killed Battler, and took his place. Washing up later and being found by Ikuko, he took up the identity of Toya Hachijou, and reading the Message Bottles and writing his own Forgeries convinced him that he was actually Battler. Everything he remembered was pretty much entirely untrue because Amnesia doesn't fucking work that way. Everything about the logistics of Umineko is solved. And Ange was never reunited with her brother in any sense. Screw her.
LOL
Other Battler or Evil Battler is still a pretty loved theory!

Now I do wonder if Natsuhi's unability to have a baby was due to Krauss and she actually slept with Rudolf in order to have a baby... then Natsuhi, Asumu and Kirye all went to the same hospital:

1) Asumu had a stillborn
2) Kirye a baby girl
3) Natsuhi a boy

Rudolf wanted a boy and wanted to cut things with Kirye so he switched the 3 babies.

By 1986 Kirye finds out, think the Ushiromiya covered up what he did and decide to massacre anyone.

At the same time Battler loses his grandfather after having lost his grandmother and his mother and is persuaded Rudolf and the Ushiromiya ruined his mother's life and therefore his own and the one of his grandfather and decide to sterminate them.

Eva actually didn't do any killing, she was merely caught in Kirye and Battler's race about who can kill the Ushiromiya faster...

Okay, this is insane, I'll shut up... *hides*
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Old 2011-09-05, 19:06   Link #24217
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Exactly correct.
If someone can remember where it is, the version would be a timestamp on Tohya's forgeries.
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Old 2011-09-05, 19:06   Link #24218
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In fact everything points to what was shown on Ange in 1998 is false, except the end where she becomes a writer.

The part of the story about Ange is yet another meta-narrative that was not in any of the books published by Touya / Ikuko. It is a resource used by R07 to give tips.

Only with the stories released by Touya / Ikuko can not determine what actually happened. We need these meta-narratives.
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Old 2011-09-05, 19:24   Link #24219
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Quote:
If someone can remember where it is, the version would be a timestamp on Tohya's forgeries.
EP4, during the scene where Krauss and everyone is escaping, and Shannon and Kanon do some spirit particle jamming anime shit. I don't remember if the version of Windows is specified.
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Old 2011-09-05, 20:01   Link #24220
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So here's a couple questions about the provenance of the bottles. I've gone over some of them in the past, but since there's a new crop of (alleged) thinkers.

If you think the message bottles were written before the incident:
  • Why were certain details so accurate? They'd have to be written very close to or during the incident to assure every detail is right. And they still miss a critical detail (Eva's survival). Why would that be?
  • If a bottle was found the day of the incident, why did it take the police so long to publish it? If it's evidence, why was it later released? If it was seen as nonsense (which would be reasonable), why wasn't it thrown away or shoved in a box of evidence and forgotten? While I don't know everything about Japanese police procedure, I've never known a cop who is eager to publicize evidence that won't actually help the case. And evidence that will fuel rampant public speculation about ridiculous theories? I dunno, man.
  • Who, exactly, "confirmed" when that bottle was found? Was this an official police press release? Was it some detective a Witch Hunter contacted? An individual officer can be bought... or a conversation with one made up. Witch Hunters appear to be really gullible.
  • Why did the fisherman wait so long? An explanation is offered in ep4. Is it convincing? Are there any other possible explanations for why that particular message bottle would've turned up when it did? Can anyone actually prove the fisherman had it as long as he claims, or that he had it at all? Why didn't he read the contents of the bottle and turn it over as possible evidence right away?
  • Which bottle was which? Was the one found on the day of the accident Legend, Turn, or something else entirely? Likewise the one "found" by the fisherman. This is kind of important because the one in the hands of the fisherman is considerably harder to prove was actually found when the guy says it was. If it's Legend, I would be extremely suspicious, because Legend is the one story that absolutely cannot be lost, the way Land supposedly was.
  • How could the author be sure everything she'd set up before the incident would remain in place if she intended or expected to die? If that wasn't what she anticipated, why release the bottles at all? What made sure her bank accounts weren't closed out?
  • Was the author really okay with all or most of the message bottles simply being lost at sea? Why would the author write an establishing episode like Legend knowing it might be lost but something like Land might not? Is that really a coherent thing to "take a risk on?" If you wanted to risk some of the bottles going missing, shouldn't they all be capable of standing on their own? Would that really happen if Turn was the only one found?
If you think they might have been written after the incident:
  • Why did the author mess up the details? They'd have to have written it very soon after the incident (thus making it roughly informationally equivalent to writing it before) to not know Eva survived. Were those details not that important? Why wouldn't they be? Why deliberately damage your own credibility?
  • Why doesn't the author want anybody to know they're alive? Are they still alive? Is there any good reason why they must be and/or can't be? Would there be a good reason even if they weren't the culprit?
  • Does the author's intention change in any particular way if they survived the incident? What if they're the culprit? What if they're not? In any of those scenarios, would the author's actions make any sense?
  • If they survived, does the author know Battler also survived? If the stories were pre-incident, is there any way the author could've been sure he would escape? If not (in either case), why is Battler such a noteworthy survivor in the message bottles, and their narrator?
  • Is it more feasible that the "discovery" of some of the post-incident information makes sense if someone is arranging it? Or is that just something we're not supposed to think about? If not, why not in this particular case?
  • What was the author going to do if the bottle(s) placed for the police's benefit got lost, or the police forgot they had one or threw it away?
  • From what we've been shown of the Witch Hunters, especially leaders in the movement like the Professor, do they seem discerning enough to question their sources, or level-headed enough to pass up a "unique" find? Could someone abuse that? What incentive would they have for doing so? How would they go about doing it?
And finally, for everyone:
  • Why does one bottle story potentially being written at least by the 5th (bear in mind this can still be post-incident, as long as it's pre-explosion; that presupposes there were murders of some sort of course) mean all such bottles had to have been written at the same time? That doesn't follow at all. Wouldn't it be much easier to prepare, say, one story, and have others be "found" later on?
  • If you believe Yasu to be responsible for the message bottles, which vision of Yasu is it: The resigned-to-fate roulette-spinning puppet, or the clever trickster who ties a string around her finger so she always knows where the things important to her are at all times? Do you think your particular view of the author influences whether or not you believe the messages were written before or after the incident? If you could be assured that one view or the other was true, would it change your mind, or at least make you view things differently?
  • Just how many message bottles were written anyway? Were all the ones not found by 1998 lost, or had they just not turned up yet? Would someone have a reason to hide one if they owned one?
  • If a new message bottle turned up suddenly, and the handwriting matched, how could anyone prove when it was actually written? Do you think any of the Witch Hunters would put in the effort to determine that? What do you think the result would be?
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

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