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Old 2011-09-07, 13:41   Link #24281
AuraTwilight
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But I don't think the goal was to ask random-ass people to find her heart. That sort of public confession might make sense for a crime, but Beatrice's confession of her true nature doesn't really seem like that sort of confession. It seems like, y'know, a romantic confession. That's not the sort of thing you just throw out there to the general masses.
I just want to point out that while it's not her ideal, Yasu is depicted as being satisfied with Will hearing her out. I think while she wanted Battler to be the one to do it, ultimately she just wants someone to understand her so her life wasn't a waste.
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Old 2011-09-07, 14:05   Link #24282
Renall
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
I just want to point out that while it's not her ideal, Yasu is depicted as being satisfied with Will hearing her out. I think while she wanted Battler to be the one to do it, ultimately she just wants someone to understand her so her life wasn't a waste.
That's clearly a case of a second-best option though. It's also a nice unintended side effect from releasing everything to the public; there's a chance someone will get the message, even if they weren't the right person. It's the difference between reading a heartfelt confession and being the person confessed to and reading it but being a mere bystander. You can certainly understand the feelings, and it may affect you deeply, but you know they're not directed at you.

Still, Claire's desire to be understood sort of just makes it even more obvious that she did in fact care quite a bit that the messages survive. If they'd all sunk never to be seen again, she wouldn't even have the satisfaction of someone like Will showing up. How, exactly, would that have been acceptable?
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Battler Solves The Logic Error
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Old 2011-09-07, 15:26   Link #24283
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Well, there's also another very simple motive to her actions: She's simply being the witch she is, and thus asserting her existence as one.

But as you say, she also seems to want Battler (or someone) to "kill" her.
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Old 2011-09-08, 07:25   Link #24284
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
That's clearly a case of a second-best option though.
And why the messages can't be meant for a second-best option?
I thought her main plan was to make Battler realize the truth directly.
AT's point is quite self-evident. Your idea that Beatrice wouldn't care about someone else finding her heart is denied directly in the game.

Your idea that the messages were meant for Battler simply cannot stand. Because she had better and more direct means for that. A message in a bottle can only be meant for a random person in the world.

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She uses false testimony often gained using bribes.
Just wanting to point out something here: I never agreed that Beatrice used bribes in any case.
To explain the conspiracy there are two better explanations. The first is blackmail, for this one we have an evident hint in EP5. The second is by tricking the people. For example by telling them she's going to perform a fake murder mystery.
For this second one she might have promised the gold in return, but this doesn't qualify as "bribery" if she wasn't asking for something illegal or immoral. In addition the siblings could have seen this more of a blackmail than a bribery since the gold was their in their eyes.
Thinking that so many people would agree on a mass murder plot is inconceivable for me.

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Beatrice isn't just the writer of the first fictions, she's also the distributor. We should extend her personality to her method of distribution. So... all this shit about mysterious bottle-stories is not some happy accident, but a trick. Beatrice may pretend to make things happen using magic, and she may pretend to do things by chance, but we know better; we know that Beatrice is just a bunch illusions using sneaky human tricks.
Whats's so magical about a message in a bottle? Isn't it the same exact thing that was done by U.N. Owen? Was he a magician? Did anyone speculate that he actually survived and wrote the message later because it was impossible elseway?
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Old 2011-09-08, 08:18   Link #24285
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Suspension of disbelief can only hold you for so long specially in a series that asks you to suspend it and then re-instill it every other scene. Trying to find out what we are suppose to take at face value and what to doubt is harder in these cases. It might be fun to wrestle these things for a while but in the long run its just exhausting. Its one of the reasons why I want the box to be opened and its contents string about, so we can move on to other things.
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Old 2011-09-08, 08:48   Link #24286
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Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma View Post
Suspension of disbelief can only hold you for so long specially in a series that asks you to suspend it and then re-instill it every other scene. Trying to find out what we are suppose to take at face value and what to doubt is harder in these cases. It might be fun to wrestle these things for a while but in the long run its just exhausting. Its one of the reasons why I want the box to be opened and its contents string about, so we can move on to other things.
But I don't even understand why there should be disbelief about a message in a bottle.
There have been several cases of those reported in the real world.
In most of those cases the reason behind them was simply for fun, and for the idea that someone somewhere would find the message, without an expectation that it would definitely happen or that the sender would ever know.
There are reports of messages having been found several years later even decades.
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Old 2011-09-08, 09:02   Link #24287
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
And why the messages can't be meant for a second-best option?
I thought her main plan was to make Battler realize the truth directly.
AT's point is quite self-evident. Your idea that Beatrice wouldn't care about someone else finding her heart is denied directly in the game.
Well then it sure is a good thing you're the one who said that, because I didn't. I said it was directed to Battler. Maybe I shouldn't have called it "pointless" as an exercise otherwise, but I find it hard to believe she'd just do that on a lark, with the chance nothing would ever come of it, so maybe someone somewhere would eventually get the message too.

The bottles have to have a higher purpose in mind than just random information tossed to the tides. Besides, the same objection applies: If she just wanted someone generally to read and comprehend, what was supposed to happen if some or all of the bottles were lost? How can she both care about being understood and not care? Why would anyone behave in a completely self-defeating and apparently random (remember, Beatrice is not actually random in her behavior at all) fashion about something they purport to care deeply about? It's not as if Claire was like "Ehn, thanks I guess" when Will finished up with her. That's not the behavior of somebody who doesn't care.
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Your idea that the messages were meant for Battler simply cannot stand. Because she had better and more direct means for that. A message in a bottle can only be meant for a random person in the world.
Unless, you know, for some reason something happened on R-Prime that prevented her from doing it directly. Like maybe a murder spree or something? I dunno, just one of those things that's hinted at. How many times did Beatrice even get to confront Battler on the topic in a story? Once? One time? In Alliance, a game that wasn't even written by the message bottle author? If a meeting like that was the extent of the R-Prime interaction between "Beatrice" and Battler, it's no surprise she didn't get everything she needed to say said.

And if, hypothetically, at the end of it all she was alive and didn't know if Battler was (but knew he wasn't clearly dead; see ep4), how else could she reach him? She's supposed to be dead, so she can't use her old identity. He's missing, so he's clearly not using his. So a legally dead person whom Battler can't possibly identify (outside of meeting her, assuming he can recognize her) is looking for a person she can't easily find. You'd need to cast a wide net. How would you do that? Perhaps something that is a gigantic in-joke between you and him, popularized by a group of impressionable people who will generally miss the point? And on the off chance one of those people actually gets the joke too, well, that's some measure of satisfaction at least. If you never find the guy, at least you weren't wasting your time.

The notion that a message in a bottle has to be written for "a random person in the world" is exactly the trap that Wanderer was describing previously. We accept that, logically, your reasoning must be correct. If a person tosses a message in a bottle randomly out to sea, they must merely be hoping that somebody finds it. The stranded castaway just wants someone to be aware of his predicament, he doesn't care who rescues him. The confessing killer just wants his crime to be known. That's precisely the attitude you'd have about the message bottles...

...IF they were actually randomly tossed out to sea. That's what Wanderer is saying: That fundamental premise is entirely questionable for reasons I've raised over and over again, and for the thematic reasons he described.

Granted, if Yasu were Ikuko I guess she did find him pretty easily, unless that was a metaphor of sorts and it actually took a while. Not really the point though.

So yeah, I wouldn't be so quick to disclaim things. You do that a lot though, usually to your detriment. Just consider it for a bit. You don't have to agree, but it is an entirely plausible motivation. More plausible than "lololol I'mma release these bottles and maybe no one will ever find them and if they do maybe no one will ever understand them but if they do I'll be happy but if they don't I don't give a damn."

Also it's pretty funny that you'd say Yasu has a more direct method when this is a girl who apparently can't make a freaking phone call to a guy. She may have had a more direct method, but she's characterized as actually taking ridiculously circuitous ones. She likes to take people down a peg by making their stuff disappear or scaring them. She has a "more direct" method: Kicking their ass. That just doesn't seem to be what she considers fun.
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
But I don't even understand why there should be disbelief about a message in a bottle.
There have been several cases of those reported in the real world.
In most of those cases the reason behind them was simply for fun, and for the idea that someone somewhere would find the message, without an expectation that it would definitely happen or that the sender would ever know.
There are reports of messages having been found several years later even decades.
Yeah, and that's exactly the sort of thing Beatrice would want people to rely on in believing in the authenticity of her messages. Wanderer went over this. It's the perfect trick: A message bottle, the ultimate random-chance message to no one in particular, is actually a targeted love letter directed at a single person, and it freaking works. Let's not forget that part. It works.

You even point out the implausibility of it yourself: It could be decades before a message bottle is found, and the sender might never know. Yet there's an entirely plausible set of reasons within Umineko itself why the timetable needs to be sped up:
  • If the message bottles aren't found for decades, do the Witch Hunters kick into high gear? Probably not.
  • If the sender actually did care about someone finding them, why chance them not being found in her lifetime?
Basically, if you automatically make the assumption that the message bottle sender died the weekend of Oct. 4/5 1986, then your claim might perhaps be more rational. But... we don't really have any reason to believe that, and there's an awful lot of strangeness surrounding the situation which would make me think otherwise.

I mean hell, Maria's diary. I've always had questions about that thing. How'd it survive? If Maria left it at home, why would she if that's so important and her handbag has infinite storage space? Why was it, like the Stake of Mammon, not considered evidence by the police? How did it just happen to get into Ange's hands (let's assume for a moment it actually did and wasn't just made up, which is also possible I guess)?

Yet we know it's authentic in authorship to Beatrice; Ootsuki confirms that. What else do we know about it? Precious little, except a remarkably implausible story told to us from someone who was six years old and traumatized at the time she received the diary.

If you insist that Beatrice must not have survived the incident, then we just have to swallow that story. How else could the handwriting appear? It's an unsatisfying taste to leave in the mouth, to say the least. Ange just got it by random chance. Just got this book that's incredibly comforting and helpful to her. By chance. Total luck. Might never've happened if some cop decided to retain it for possible investigation.

Or......... you know, it was intentionally given to her. Suddenly everything makes a whole lot more sense! The police never saw the stake and diary, so they were never considered evidence. If it was on the island, it was carried to safety by a survivor. If it was reconstructed later to give Ange comfort, its authenticity can be explained. For a theory you seem to dismiss as absurd, it sure makes a whole lot of sense.
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Old 2011-09-08, 10:02   Link #24288
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Well then it sure is a good thing you're the one who said that, because I didn't. I said it was directed to Battler.
Maybe you misunderstood what I said? Because you definitely said this:

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But I don't think the goal was to ask random-ass people to find her heart.
Which is definitely not what you can get from the whole Clair story.

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Maybe I shouldn't have called it "pointless" as an exercise otherwise, but I find it hard to believe she'd just do that on a lark, with the chance nothing would ever come of it, so maybe someone somewhere would eventually get the message too.
Again. Clair proves that she still cares about some random people finding the truth if Battler doesn't. Also the bottom line of the messages is self-explainatory.

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The bottles have to have a higher purpose in mind than just random information tossed to the tides.
For the love of all that's good, WHY it HAVE to if Beatrice herself in EP8 clearly stated the opposite?

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Besides, the same objection applies: If she just wanted someone generally to read and comprehend, what was supposed to happen if some or all of the bottles were lost? How can she both care about being understood and not care?
For the same reason she made her game against Battler absolutely impossible to win, I guess?
Think about it.
1) Her desire was for Battler to understand.
However
2) She asked Lambdadelta, the fucking witch of certainty, to help her making the hardest mystery story ever made.
explanation for this absolutely preposterous and contraddictory behavior?
3) she hoped for a miracle.

I think I see a pattern here.

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Unless, you know, for some reason something happened on R-Prime that prevented her from doing it directly. Like maybe a murder spree or something?
Wow, everyone died, I guess that wa totally unexpected considering there was a giant bomb ready to explode anytime.
Are you seriously contemplating the idea that Beatrice didn't expect everyone to die, not even considering the letters with the bank accounts she sent to the close relatives of the victim?

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And if, hypothetically, at the end of it all she was alive and didn't know if Battler was (but knew he wasn't clearly dead; see ep4), how else could she reach him?
You are on a completely different track from Waderer here. This reasoning only works if Yasu is not Ikuko, because if they are the same persons Ikuko could simply tell Tohya: "hey I wrote this story, read it".

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She's supposed to be dead, so she can't use her old identity. He's missing, so he's clearly not using his. So a legally dead person whom Battler can't possibly identify (outside of meeting her, assuming he can recognize her) is looking for a person she can't easily find. You'd need to cast a wide net. How would you do that? Perhaps something that is a gigantic in-joke between you and him, popularized by a group of impressionable people who will generally miss the point? And on the off chance one of those people actually gets the joke too, well, that's some measure of satisfaction at least. If you never find the guy, at least you weren't wasting your time.
This totally cannot work. Your assumptions are:
1) Yasu didn't expect that everyone would die.
2) Yasu somehow survived.
3) Yasu is not Ikuko.
4) The messages are fabrications. Which involve bribing the police at least.

Okay... Where the hell Yasu got the money and the resources for that?
Legally speaking she has absolutely no way to claim she was the heir of the Ushiromiya assets, moreover we know that Eva was publicly recognized as such.
In addition the gold was gone.
If she didn't foresee everyone would die, how come she prepared a secret bank account that she could use later?

So your theory would have to rely on the idea that she casually created an account she could use for absolutely no reason. And she also conveniently managed to save the necessary documents to access it while escaping from the tragedy.


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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
The notion that a message in a bottle has to be written for "a random person in the world" is exactly the trap that Wanderer was describing previously. We accept that, logically, your reasoning must be correct. If a person tosses a message in a bottle randomly out to sea, they must merely be hoping that somebody finds it. The stranded castaway just wants someone to be aware of his predicament, he doesn't care who rescues him. The confessing killer just wants his crime to be known. That's precisely the attitude you'd have about the message bottles...
Why it HAS to be a trap? Oh wait I'm having a dejà-vu, when was the last time when you claimed something was definitely a trap and I claimed it wasn't..?
Oh yeah! Shkanon.


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Also it's pretty funny that you'd say Yasu has a more direct method when this is a girl who apparently can't make a freaking phone call to a guy.
We know she had a direct method because the fact that Battler returned to Rokkenjima was the whole reason the tragedy started. Have you completely removed anything you read in EP7?


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A message bottle, the ultimate random-chance message to no one in particular, is actually a targeted love letter directed at a single person, and it freaking works. Let's not forget that part. It works.
There's something that would have woked a lot better. She could have become a mystery writer and published a book about the Rokkenjima incident.
Another huge thing you are forgetting. Why would she wait several years for that if your theory is true?


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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
You even point out the implausibility of it yourself: It could be decades before a message bottle is found, and the sender might never know. Yet there's an entirely plausible set of reasons within Umineko itself why the timetable needs to be sped up:[list][*]If the message bottles aren't found for decades, do the Witch Hunters kick into high gear? Probably not.
It's implausible only under your assumptions! You are assuming that she expected her messages to cause that uproar while again in EP8 she says the total opposite.


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Or......... you know, it was intentionally given to her. Suddenly everything makes a whole lot more sense! The police never saw the stake and diary, so they were never considered evidence. If it was on the island, it was carried to safety by a survivor. If it was reconstructed later to give Ange comfort, its authenticity can be explained. For a theory you seem to dismiss as absurd, it sure makes a whole lot of sense.
Or... Maria had more than one diary... and that one was among the things that was given to Ange by the police like what was written clearly in the story.
I think this makes a lot more sense, without resorting to wild assumptions...
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Old 2011-09-08, 10:22   Link #24289
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You're seriously not even listening. None of these assumptions are "wild" unless, like you, you're absolutely inflexible in your thinking and completely arbitrary in which parts of the narrative you consider open to question (i.e. anything but "all of it").

I just don't think you understand what I'm trying to say, because you've gone off on some entirely unrelated tangent about the logistics of how this or that happened which I wasn't even talking about. It's very simple:

Yasu could have survived, regardless of whether or not she expected to. If she survived, she could have suspected Battler also survived (if Yasu experienced the sort of ep4 Tea Party situation where she found corpses of seemingly everyone except Eva and Battler, it's a reasonable assumption). If he survived (and we know that he did, so this chain of speculation is not that crazy), she probably wanted to find him, especially if her efforts to get him to remember were interrupted or left incomplete (like by, say, murders). If that happened, there are many methods she could take to try to find him, make him remember, and eventually get him to reciprocate. She chose the one that was an elaborate trick that appeared almost miraculous, in keeping with her personality. The entire post-1986 story makes more sense in this context.

You have no argument whatsoever for why the story presented by the text - testimony and fiction in a story full of false testimony and concocted fiction - has to be true, other than "that's what was written there." You ignore that characters who frequently lie might be lying. It's your own personal inability to critically examine what you're told that makes this appear to not make sense to you. Is there anything in the text that you doubt?

You also inexplicably and hypocritically suggest that the message bottles can only possibly have been a random distribution to strangers because "she hoped for a miracle" when the notion that the bottles were for Battler is, itself, hoping for exactly that, and in a way which makes more narrative sense. That there can be other objectives or satisfactory conditions is not exclusive of the primary goal, which in this whole story has seemingly always been a romance. Remember what Kyrie told Battler way back in ep1 about romances being harder than mysteries?

Everything else you've brought up is irrelevant, misleading, or making bad assumptions about things you "know" are true that you can't actually back up. It's tiresome. You don't seem to even want to let people speculate. Nevermind that many of us have a pretty good track record of tossing out ideas and refining them down into things that actually make a pretty good deal of sense. It doesn't necessarily mean we're right in this case, but you don't find Wanderer's thesis even remotely compelling? I thought his summary was a thematic slam dunk, myself.
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Old 2011-09-08, 17:35   Link #24290
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Just wanting to point out something here: I never agreed that Beatrice used bribes in any case.
Fine. Maybe it's not bribes, but that's not really the point. What is important is that she constructs illusory truths by getting people to lie for her.

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Whats's so magical about a message in a bottle? Isn't it the same exact thing that was done by U.N. Owen? Was he a magician? Did anyone speculate that he actually survived and wrote the message later because it was impossible elseway?
U.N. Owen absolutely was a magician. He fooled everyone on the island as well as the police. However, his bottle-message was a clear and explicit confession meant to put an end to his illusions. Beatrice, on the other hand, is deepening the confusion with her quirky and contradictory message bottles. Therefore they shouldn't be trusted; actually since it's Beatrice we're talking about, we know there's some trick to it.

And in And Then There Were None the police did at first consider the possible survival of the killer, but determined it to be impossible. This is not the case at all with Umineko, which has at least two confirmed survivors, one of which the public doesn't even know about. Also, U.N. Owen was the killer. Do you think Yasu was the killer?

And finally, I'd just like to point out that And Then There Were None is not Umineko. Umineko is an obvious homage, but there is nothing dictating that it plays out the same way; in fact, variations are expected.

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For the love of all that's good, WHY it HAVE to if Beatrice herself in EP8 clearly stated the opposite?
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You are assuming that she expected her messages to cause that uproar while again in EP8 she says the total opposite.
And Beatrice never lies? Beatrice has to play her role as a magic-wielding, random-chance-loving witch because that's what she is: She's an illusion, a lie incarnate, and if she were to admit so she would cease to exist.

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For the same reason she made her game against Battler absolutely impossible to win, I guess?
Think about it.
1) Her desire was for Battler to understand.
However
2) She asked Lambdadelta, the fucking witch of certainty, to help her making the hardest mystery story ever made.
explanation for this absolutely preposterous and contradictory behavior?
3) she hoped for a miracle.
1) Battler did understand, demonstrating Beatrice's game was not impossible.
2) Lambdadelta is the force that represents what human determination can do... So appealing to her is a metaphor for working really hard. It's kind of like the "God helps those who help themselves" thing.
3) Beatrice is a witch who wants a human to understand her. But since she is a witch, she can't just come out and say so; she can only communicate from the shadows. Thus her predicament and need for a "miracle".

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Are you seriously contemplating the idea that Beatrice didn't expect everyone to die, not even considering the letters with the bank accounts she sent to the close relatives of the victim?
Well, I am. Very seriously. Those letters are just more smoke and mirrors.

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You are on a completely different track from Wanderer here. This reasoning only works if Yasu is not Ikuko, because if they are the same persons Ikuko could simply tell Tohya: "hey I wrote this story, read it".
You obviously don't understand Beatrice; she would never do that. If Ikuko=Yasu then she would expose Touya to her stories indirectly (which is what Ikuko did, by the way).

And Renall, for his part, seems hardly sold on Ikuko=Yasu. At this point I'm only about 60% certain of it myself.

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Or... Maria had more than one diary... and that one was among the things that was given to Ange by the police like what was written clearly in the story.
I think this makes a lot more sense, without resorting to wild assumptions...
There is no fucking way that stubborn brat (and I say so lovingly) would leave anything connected Mariage Sorciere and her beloved Beatrice at home, especially if she brought it the year before.
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Old 2011-09-08, 17:56   Link #24291
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Quote:
2) Lambdadelta is the force that represents what human determination can do... So appealing to her is a metaphor for working really hard. It's kind of like the "God helps those who help themselves" thing.
I'm going to add on to this by saying that Lambdadelta herself says that she only helps those who absolutely never give up, and that if your determination falters her blessings disappear. Oh shit what did Beatrice do all over the place?

Way to cherry-pick, Jan-Poo. Quit the condescending attitude if you're going to make such oversights.

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And Renall, for his part, seems hardly sold on Ikuko=Yasu. At this point I'm only about 60% certain of it myself.
You're fucking nuts, Ikuko is Asumu. It's so obvious.
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Old 2011-09-08, 18:18   Link #24292
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
There is no fucking way that stubborn brat (and I say so lovingly) would leave anything connected Mariage Sorciere and her beloved Beatrice at home, especially if she brought it the year before.
Kind of unrelated but: why no one consider that Maria might have had more than one diary and not be willing to drag them all around?
She's 8 and not only she writes on her diary but she also fills it with draws. It's likely she finished the pages of one or more diaries and began another. If you believe that Ange really had Maria's diary it's likely she had the old one she had finished writing and that Maria's new one was carried on Rokkenjima by her.
Maria doesn't have to keep the secret over Marriage Sorciere, in fact she wanted to include Ange in it so there's nothing wrong if she didn't carry along all her diaries.

(as for me I tend to think that Maria's diary was something Toya placed in Ange's hands along with many other things but this is just me)

Last edited by jjblue1; 2011-09-08 at 20:15.
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Old 2011-09-08, 18:43   Link #24293
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Did Ange ever mention it was full to capacity though? I'd be pretty easy for her to deduce that there might have been another diary if the cut off point was too far off behind the lasts days Maria had.

My issue with the diary was mentioned before. If it went trough police hands then they would have noticed the change in writing styles and would have compared it to any evidence they would have had. They should have the bottled letter at the time and would have confirmed a match, so chances are Maria's dairy would be considered important evidence as well. The letter itself wouldn't be treated as something unrelated to the case either!

So it then its either a case of:

Bribery - Someone paid for them to look the other way. ( I dont think Battler was fully aware of most things yet so I doubt it was him. So it was either Mastermind Ikuko or Mastermind Survivor X)

Conspiracy- They had no vested interested to follow this lead cause they wanted to bury the case. Less likely, they would have burned the diary if it was like that.

Ignorance- They never knew the diary existed in the first place. Its later given to Ange at one point. (Same as bribery)

Incompetence- The police are bumbling dolts- Given how many behave in umineko this might be the most likely case heh.


I want Ikuko to be Maria though and that she's the mastermind culprit. The thought of Maria masterminding everything, from the slaying of her family to ending up with Battler. Then having Ange find out little by little driving her to suicide or insanity would be great. "This is what you get Ange, you where gonna be my disciple and you turn your back on me. This is what you get uuuuuAuuuuuuAuuuuu."
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Old 2011-09-08, 20:12   Link #24294
jjblue1
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I’ve been following the discussion about the message bottles being sent after the island blew up and, although it has some interesting points, I find hard to accept this theory maybe because I’m looking at things from another angle.

Let’s face it, I know if the messages in the bottles were sent after the Rokkenjima incident it would be a lot easier to explain how they could be so accurate (they had the storm and didn’t have Ange) but still, to me, it doesn’t sound like the right answer.

First there’s this bit in Ryukishi’s interview:

Quote:
R And it really was just that. She had no intention to create the perfect crime from the very beginning. And that is how, even without turning the chessboard over, we return to the question „Why did the culprit send a letter announcing the incident?“. If somebody wanted to commit the perfect crime, it would have been better not to send an announcement and to murder everyone in their sleep. In the end it shows that the culprit had the internal longing to be discovered.
K No matter how you look at it, it seems like she was already accepting death. Both the letters before the incident and the message bottles seemed very much like a will.
R While there was enough desperation to actually carry out the incident, there was also the wish for somebody to stop her. Many criminals sending out announcements of their crimes might actually be screaming „Somebody, please stop me!“. Even though of course they can not be forgiven.
K That is why she painted herself as the sole culprit and wanted for Battler to solve it, right?!
First, it implies that, although she wanted Battler to stop her, she would have accepted it even if someone else were to do it.

Second, for the message bottles to seem like a will, she had to have assumed she would die after sending them.

Going on. In Ep 7 Tea Party Yasu said he had envisioned any possible scenarios. It’s possible she wrote them down and those scenarios became the messages in the bottles. We know only of three messages in the bottle but it’s possible there were more, with different scenarios, even ones with Battler dying on the first twilight or with Ange being present or with the weather being sunny.

By coincidence the ones that were found didn’t have Ange and had a storm. It might be that she assumed those scenarios were more plausible so there were less scenarios with Ange coming or a storm not happening or that she had tossed away the scenarios that didn’t fit with the situation. If the bottles were abandoned in the sea the day before the family conference by then she would have already known about the storm and Ange’s extremely low chance of coming.

George Simenon was capable to write around 80 pages in a day. Maybe even Yasu is a fast writer so she wrote really a lot of them. Maybe she started writing the possible scenarios as a joke, a way to have fun, then a plan formed in her mind and they became what we know.

Maybe Ryukishi didn’t really care about going for the more plausible possibility but went for the one that was still possible and more useful for his story.

Yasu said she thought the Ushiromiya had a really low chance to solve the epitaph but still it’s what had likely happened in Rokkenjima Prime. Sometimes the roulette stops on the 0, even if it’s easier to get an even or odd number.

Evidently Yasu’s roulette likes the number 0 (Her grandmother was an Italian who ended up in a rather unusual situation and died after giving birth, Kinzo believed her mother (who was the split image of her grandmother) to be her grandmother’s reincarnation and made her pregnant, Rosa found her mother and this caused her to fall from a cliff, Yasu also fell from a cliff but survived, once she fell in love with Battler and seems she could leave Rokkenjima with him he leaves the Ushiromiya family, Yasu solves the epitaph and just after she does Kinzo dies, Battler comes back into the Ushiromiya family just when she was considering leaving it with George, the island has a auto-destruction mechanism, during the conference a storm happens closing off the island, the family solves the epitaph but somehow they’re nearly all wiped out anyway… and I’d like to point out it’s possible despite planning to die there she managed to survive… talk about always picking up the hardest to get outcome).

But there’s more that makes me think that’s hard that the messages were written after the incident.

Now let’s consider possibilities:

Possibility number 1.

Ange’s travel is real. If the messages in the bottles were sent after the incident either the police was wrong or Otsuki was wrong. They’re spreading info that are false. Let’s start from the police.

If the police made a mistake in deciding the first message had been sent before the Rokkenjima incident it showed incompetency. If it spread a false info on purpose it showed conspiracy.

If Ootsuki is reporting a false info either he had been misinformed (because the police made a mistake), he is incompetent (he didn’t really know if the message had been written before or after the incident, he’s just reporting a info he hadn’t checked carefully or in which he had decided to believe with no proofs) or again he’s lying to Ange for unknown purposes.

Now, let’s analyze the chance the false info was spread by the police. Although I like the conspiracy theory to assume there’s the Umineko version of Yamainu interfering with the police work is not supported by any clue. It’s possible but it’s random. The police can make a mistake in deciding the message was sent prior to the incident, it’s still made by human beings, but I’d like to think that, before they’ll dismiss something that could be a clue to find out the culprit of so many deaths they would check it carefully. Again, it’s possible but I’d like to hope it has low chances of happening.

Now let’s move to Ootuski. If he’d been misinformed by the police the blame shift on the police. If he’s incompetent Ange made an error going to him. I’d like to think Ange didn’t pick up a random witch hunter but tried to go for a knowledgeable one since she wanted info. Ootsuki seems an expert, he could even notice the resemblance between the message and the writing on Maria’s diary, if he’s not we can’t even trust him to recognize the writing. Again, it’s possible but I think it’s more probable Ange would pick up a competent one. The conspiracy theory has no support. He doesn’t seem to know Ange is hunted by the Sumadera and even if he knew he would have probably slowed her more if he had talked with her about the possibility the real culprit was alive and writing message bottles.

So, if Ange’s travel is real the possibility that the message bottles were written AFTER the incident is pretty low.

Possibility number 2

Ange’s travel is fictional. Be it meta created by Toya or narrative that was in the ‘Alliance’ wrote by Itouikukuro Reigonamu what happens in it is the result of a decision made by Toya or by Itouikukuro Reigonamu (I’m keeping Toya and Itouikukuro Reigonamu as two separate being because I’m not sure if under the name Itouikukuro Reigonamu there’s only Toya or there’s also Ikuko and they are writing in tandem).

Now usually in fiction nothing happens without a purpose. In the books that explain how to write a story you generally find stuffs like ‘don’t waste your time and bore your reader writing random facts that has no use whatsoever for your story’.

Yes, real life is an endless sequence of details, but you won’t write them all in a fic.

If person A was incidentally pushed in real life and this had no consequence whatsoever nor this might help a reader to understand something about person A, even if you’re writing a bibliography, you generally wouldn’t mention this.

Now… which narrative relevance might have the fact that someone lied about when the message bottles were sent or spread a false information by mistake? Or, since they are at it, which relevance might have the fact that in the narrative is included the existence of the message bottles? Because since this is fiction the messages might not have existed for real…

Let’s analyze the hypothesis we considered before.

If there was a conspiracy, there’s no mention of it, nor it has effect on the story. Apparently there’s no real point in having the police being dumb or Ootsuki being incompetent or Ange being a mistake in choosing with whom she should talk.

Ange-Beatrice has already decided to fight the witch. She didn’t need to know that there were message bottles written prior to the incident. Real Ange can’t fight the witch, she doesn’t even plan to. In Ep 4 she goes on Rokkenjima, toying with the idea of dying there. Although she talks with Ootsuki and other people she doesn’t really seem to think she can track the culprit down. In Ep 4 & 8 it’s implied in her heart she’s rather firm in the belief it was Eva who murdered everyone and, by now, Eva is dead.

Saying the message bottles were written prior to the incident doesn’t shake her belief that much.

Ange-Beatrice and Ange would have acted the way they did regardless of when the messages were written.

Although the existence of witch hunters was aided by the message bottles it’s possible they would have birth even without them, just with Kinzo’s library (that would likely cause info on the epitaph to spread). Maybe they wouldn’t be so enthusiast but since Kinzo’s library raised a big interest is likely to assume we would have ended up having a smaller group of witch hunters but still a group of them.

The existence of the forgers was tied closely to the one of the messages, without the messages we wouldn’t have forgers but we could still have fictions. In real life there’s plenty of people that write fiction about real facts. If the messages existed solely to promote the existence of people writing fiction about the Rokkenjima incident well the reason is a bit low. Sure, without the messages people wouldn’t try to write tales that would copy it but they would still write and Toya might still chose to write his tales in exactly the same way he did. He can make a mystery out of the Rokkenjima incident just the same and can write his mystery as if it was a message in the bottle written by Maria. The messages written by Maria are inspiration for the writers but it’s not like they were the condition sine qua non a certain type of tale couldn’t exist. And although their existence inspire the writers, the fact they were written prior or after the incident, doesn’t really have to influence the writers that much.

Again, lying on the existence of the message bottles or on when they were written would be pointless.

Now, let’s assume the message bottles aren’t related to Ange/Ange-Beatrice’s actions or to the forgers but are supposed to be clues for the readers. In short misinformation isn’t spread to push Ange to act in a certain way or writers to exist or Toya to write in a certain way, but to give us a hint.

What’s the first hint they give? Well, if you connect their existence to the info given in Ep 6 you get that while Ep 3, 4, 5 & 6 were likely connected to the ones written by Itouikukuro Reigonamu, Ep 1 & 2 were made by another author, possibly using the messages as basis.

So we’re informed that, although the game master for the first 4 games is always Beatrice, actually she can be the narrator only for the first 2 episodes at best (and likely her narration was filtered by Toya). The messages become also the ‘incident’ that draw Toya’s attention on Rokkenjima, spreading the creation of fictions and pushing Toya to write his own.

Would it make a difference for him if the messages in the bottle were written prior or after the Rokkenjima incident? Likely no. Also, although Ep 1 implies it is based on a message in the bottle we can’t know if Ep 1 is one of the messages in the bottle or a forgery written by someone else that’s not Itouikukuro Reigonamu, maybe just Ikuko or maybe even a random author. It would make more sense if Ep 1 &2 are based on the message bottles because in this way they wouldn’t be just mystery that Toya elaborated in his mind adding meta to them, but something that’s directly connected to someone in Rokkenjima Prime.

Would Toya/Itouikukuro Reigonamu have a reason to hide that Ep 1& 2 were written by him?

None I can think of.

Would Toya/Itouikukuro Reigonamu have a reason to hide that Ep 1& 2 are based on what another forgers wrote?

None I can think of.

Of course ‘None I can think of’ doesn’t mean someone else can’t think of a reason. Just allow me to state that, although Toya might have had reasons to invent the story of the fact that existed some messages in the bottles, I think the possibility is low.

Sure, Umineko is full of misleading information, but they exist for the purpose of making more difficult to find out the truth, they aren’t just randomly tossed in. Then something improbable, impossible is randomly tossed in (like people not getting wet) it’s there merely because you must not think at it too deeply.

So let’s go back to the story.

In short, Toya or Itouikukuro Reigonamu, talking about the messages in their story, informs us about the connection Ep 1 & 2 have to someone else that’s not Toya, someone that’s apparently ‘Beatrice’ and not Maria, who’s obviously not the culprit, although she likely had ties with ‘Beatrice’.

Would it matter if the message bottles were written them prior or afterward the Rokkenjima incident? In terms of establishing a tie with ‘Beatrice’ no, not really, though the purpose for their existence would change.

If they were written prior they’re a will of some sort and a request for fate to help whoever wrote them, like Ryukishi and KEITA said. Who wrote them was trying to get our attention, as Beatrice did with the Ushiromiya sending them that challenging letter. If they were by some miracle reach someone and push that someone to stop the Rokkenjima incident, they would fulfil Yasu’s request for help. If they didn’t they either would insure Beatrice would survive as a legend or would cause someone to understand Yasu and therefore fulfil the ‘last will’ hope.

If they were written afterward, they would prove the person who wrote them, Beatrice, was still alive after the tragedy. Now, Toya/Itouikukuro Reigonamu would have reasons to try and cover this up only in order to protect that person.

In short, if they were written prior to the incident they gives you hint about Beatrice (their existence and when they were written is a fact solely connected to ‘Beatrice’ that Toya merely reported) but if they are written afterward they gives you hints about Toya/Itouikukuro Reigonamu (he decided to hide the truth for his own reasons). I like the idea of Toya covering up for Beatrice however, unless he had already recovered his memory, he had no reasons to cover up for her.

Also in Ep 5, 6, 7 and 8 it’s implied that Beatrice died. She wanted to die and Yasu killed her. It doesn’t mean Yasu necessarily died but I think it’s safe enough to bet that the Beatrice persona died just after the Rokkenjima incident. Sending the messages, that basically keep Beatrice alive, doesn’t really fit with Yasu’s idea of letting her die.

So, due to all this, I’ve problems believing the messages were sent after the incident.

As far as I’m involved the fact that it was more difficult to write the messages prior the incident than afterward it’s merely a case in which Ryukishi chose to ignore probable to got for improbable but still possible. In short Yasu’s roulette stopped again on number 0.

Les jeux sont faits, rien ne va plus. Le numéro gagnant est 0.
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Old 2011-09-08, 21:32   Link #24295
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First there’s this bit in Ryukishi’s interview:
Ryukishi has contradicted his own text before, in all fairness.

Quote:
First, it implies that, although she wanted Battler to stop her, she would have accepted it even if someone else were to do it.

Second, for the message bottles to seem like a will, she had to have assumed she would die after sending them.
The point being made is that if she didn't arrange for the illusion of the message bottles, chances are astronomically high that NO ONE would be able to solve it. It's also possible that she committed suicide immediately after sending out the message bottles.

Quote:
Going on. In Ep 7 Tea Party Yasu said he had envisioned any possible scenarios. It’s possible she wrote them down and those scenarios became the messages in the bottles. We know only of three messages in the bottle but it’s possible there were more, with different scenarios, even ones with Battler dying on the first twilight or with Ange being present or with the weather being sunny.

By coincidence the ones that were found didn’t have Ange and had a storm. It might be that she assumed those scenarios were more plausible so there were less scenarios with Ange coming or a storm not happening or that she had tossed away the scenarios that didn’t fit with the situation. If the bottles were abandoned in the sea the day before the family conference by then she would have already known about the storm and Ange’s extremely low chance of coming.
The problem here is that Yasu is a liar, and her word can't be trusted at face value whatsoever. And under Author Theory, Yasu-As-Clair was written by either Toya, or someone else who knew significantly less about her than Toya. Either way it's not like we got a direct look at Yasu's mind, ever.

Quote:
So, if Ange’s travel is real the possibility that the message bottles were written AFTER the incident is pretty low.
No, it's really not. Because the police can be tricked if Yasu bribes the people who handed the message bottles to the police. You're not accounting for the fact that the message bottles weren't picked by the police directly off the beach or anything.

Quote:
(I’m keeping Toya and Itouikukuro Reigonamu as two separate being because I’m not sure if under the name Itouikukuro Reigonamu there’s only Toya or there’s also Ikuko and they are writing in tandem).
Toya is the sole writer of the Forgeries. Ikuko is his caretaker.

Quote:
If there was a conspiracy, there’s no mention of it, nor it has effect on the story. Apparently there’s no real point in having the police being dumb or Ootsuki being incompetent or Ange being a mistake in choosing with whom she should talk.
You are for some reason assuming that Ange's journey being fictional has any bearing on the Message Bottles whatsoever. They were public knowledge before Toya ever began writing Forgeries; his writings therefore do not determine if there is a conspiracy or not; he can write Ange's tale as if they were legitimate even if they were a hoax because he doesn't know any better.

Quote:
Although the existence of witch hunters was aided by the message bottles it’s possible they would have birth even without them, just with Kinzo’s library (that would likely cause info on the epitaph to spread). Maybe they wouldn’t be so enthusiast but since Kinzo’s library raised a big interest is likely to assume we would have ended up having a smaller group of witch hunters but still a group of them.
Kinzo's Library blew up. The existence of the Witch Hunters without the Message Bottles is impossible, since the message bottles are what cast doubt on the official findings of the police and kicked off the conspiracy wheel in the first place.

Quote:
Again, lying on the existence of the message bottles or on when they were written would be pointless.
This statement demonstrates that you massively misunderstand what the theory is actually proposing.

Quote:
Now, let’s assume the message bottles aren’t related to Ange/Ange-Beatrice’s actions or to the forgers but are supposed to be clues for the readers. In short misinformation isn’t spread to push Ange to act in a certain way or writers to exist or Toya to write in a certain way, but to give us a hint.
The message bottles, in this theory, are being spread to make contact with Battler and deliver a coded message for him. Yasu has no idea what the hell happened to him.

Quote:
Would it make a difference for him if the messages in the bottle were written prior or after the Rokkenjima incident? Likely no. Also, although Ep 1 implies it is based on a message in the bottle we can’t know if Ep 1 is one of the messages in the bottle or a forgery written by someone else that’s not Itouikukuro Reigonamu, maybe just Ikuko or maybe even a random author. It would make more sense if Ep 1 &2 are based on the message bottles because in this way they wouldn’t be just mystery that Toya elaborated in his mind adding meta to them, but something that’s directly connected to someone in Rokkenjima Prime.
Yes, we know that, and the message bottle hoax theory is working from that very same premise. What the hell is your point?

Quote:
Would Toya/Itouikukuro Reigonamu have a reason to hide that Ep 1& 2 were written by him?

None I can think of.

Would Toya/Itouikukuro Reigonamu have a reason to hide that Ep 1& 2 are based on what another forgers wrote?

None I can think of.
Absolutely no one has claimed any of this. The idea is that Yasu herself is perpetuating the hoax. Did you even read the theory?

Quote:
If they were written prior they’re a will of some sort and a request for fate to help whoever wrote them, like Ryukishi and KEITA said. Who wrote them was trying to get our attention, as Beatrice did with the Ushiromiya sending them that challenging letter. If they were by some miracle reach someone and push that someone to stop the Rokkenjima incident, they would fulfil Yasu’s request for help. If they didn’t they either would insure Beatrice would survive as a legend or would cause someone to understand Yasu and therefore fulfil the ‘last will’ hope.
Whether or not the message bottles were written before or after the incident has no bearing on their surviving as a Yasu's "last will".

Quote:
If they were written afterward, they would prove the person who wrote them, Beatrice, was still alive after the tragedy. Now, Toya/Itouikukuro Reigonamu would have reasons to try and cover this up only in order to protect that person.
No, he wouldn't, because Toya wouldn't know any better. To the best of his knowledge Yasu is dead. He'd presumably be deceived as much as any other Witch Hunter until he starts to remember things better.

Quote:
Also in Ep 5, 6, 7 and 8 it’s implied that Beatrice died. She wanted to die and Yasu killed her. It doesn’t mean Yasu necessarily died but I think it’s safe enough to bet that the Beatrice persona died just after the Rokkenjima incident. Sending the messages, that basically keep Beatrice alive, doesn’t really fit with Yasu’s idea of letting her die.
If you're going to argue this, then why did Yasu send them out to begin with? They support Beatrice's existence regardless of when they were deployed. Your argument is very incoherent and inconsistent with itself.
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Old 2011-09-08, 22:13   Link #24296
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
The problem here is that Yasu is a liar, and her word can't be trusted at face value whatsoever. And under Author Theory, Yasu-As-Clair was written by either Toya, or someone else who knew significantly less about her than Toya. Either way it's not like we got a direct look at Yasu's mind, ever.
But you should know as well that Author Theory does not actually entail that everything has to be written from the same perspective and with the same amount of knowledge. It does not even have to be all authored.
Author Theory is basically only a frame which you can use to sort out several solution. I for one argue in favour of only the theories around Rokkenjima being authored, but the information is gained through other methods than pure inductive reasoning.

Also, where was it ever fully established that Yasu is a liar that cannot be trusted? I see this as nothing more than a hurried interpretation of Yasu, based on several of her representations. Yasu's characters have never actually lied to us, instead they communicated with us in pictures and metaphors that were easy to misunderstand. This is something completely different from lying. The fact alone that Yasu's Beatrice refused again and again to prove her magic in red was hint enough that there was no magic.
The problem I have with the latest theories is that they draw on suspicions where we may need some in real life, but not in a fictional story that follows certain rules.

Quote:
No, it's really not. Because the police can be tricked if Yasu bribes the people who handed the message bottles to the police.
It's exactly the overuse of IF in the current discussion that bugs me a little.
Of course it was our first and most useful weapon to doubt when the series was still in production. But now that it has provided us with certain (be they as deus ex machina as they may) hints and solutions that are supposed to be used to solve the case, the word IF has started to change towards a connotation of "I don't like it, therefore I don't except it".

It's not hard to do that with any story.
What if the woman who found U.N.Owen's letter at the end of And then there were None was actually the true culprit who was the child who was supposed to have drowned? With his/her families money s/he bribed the police and convince them to release the confession in form of the bottle letter to the public. The other murders were only there to disguise his/her true plot of revenge.
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Old 2011-09-08, 22:49   Link #24297
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Kinzo's Library blew up. The existence of the Witch Hunters without the Message Bottles is impossible, since the message bottles are what cast doubt on the official findings of the police and kicked off the conspiracy wheel in the first place.
No, the part of his library that was in the main mansion blew up. Some of it survived in Kuwadorian, and Eva put it on the auction block to support herself about a year (I think?) after the incident. That sale was pointed out in EP4 as being one of the necessary catalysts for the incident to be popularized. Without both it AND the message bottles, the Witch Hunters wouldn't exist.

Note, by the way, that Yasu wouldn't have been able to control or predict this event regardless of whether she survived or not.
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Old 2011-09-08, 23:12   Link #24298
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Note, by the way, that Yasu wouldn't have been able to control or predict this event regardless of whether she survived or not.
True, but it could have been exploited. Nobody had to leave the island with some master plan already in place. Indeed the apparent delay in events getting rolling does sort of support that nobody was pounding the pavement right from the start.

Although it's not hard to realize anybody who did survive would be broke. But I get the sense Eva didn't know anyone else survived (which seems to make sense), and probably anyone who survived didn't know she did either. But again, it's not necessary that everything be planned from the start, as things can be adapted to.

But only if one is alive, remember. Assuming everything happened pre-incident means assuming either that everything was planned out in advance or just lucked out that way.
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Old 2011-09-08, 23:51   Link #24299
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Also, where was it ever fully established that Yasu is a liar that cannot be trusted?
SHE'S BEATRICE. She's not malicious but she speaks in circles and twists around what she actually wants to say all the goddamn time.

Quote:
Yasu's characters have never actually lied to us
Are you kidding? "I am a witch."

Quote:
Of course it was our first and most useful weapon to doubt when the series was still in production. But now that it has provided us with certain (be they as deus ex machina as they may) hints and solutions that are supposed to be used to solve the case, the word IF has started to change towards a connotation of "I don't like it, therefore I don't except it".
Except for Ryukishi's failure to wrap up several loose ends in the story that never went anywhere and leaving huge blanks in information throughout the narrative because he didn't feel it was important.

Quote:
It's not hard to do that with any story.
What if the woman who found U.N.Owen's letter at the end of And then there were None was actually the true culprit who was the child who was supposed to have drowned? With his/her families money s/he bribed the police and convince them to release the confession in form of the bottle letter to the public. The other murders were only there to disguise his/her true plot of revenge.
That's a bullshit comparison and you know it. You're comparing that to a character who we already know took Action X to have hypothetically done Action Y to make Action X more likely to succeed, with Action Y being 100% consistent with her personality as demonstrated and repeated throughout the novel.
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Old 2011-09-09, 00:12   Link #24300
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Toya is the sole writer of the Forgeries. Ikuko is his caretaker.
This is incorrect. Supposedly Touya comes up with the plot and Ikuko puts it into story.

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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
First there’s this bit in Ryukishi’s interview:

Quote:
Originally Posted by RK07 Interview
R And it really was just that. She had no intention to create the perfect crime from the very beginning. And that is how, even without turning the chessboard over, we return to the question „Why did the culprit send a letter announcing the incident?“. If somebody wanted to commit the perfect crime, it would have been better not to send an announcement and to murder everyone in their sleep. In the end it shows that the culprit had the internal longing to be discovered.
K No matter how you look at it, it seems like she was already accepting death. Both the letters before the incident and the message bottles seemed very much like a will.
R While there was enough desperation to actually carry out the incident, there was also the wish for somebody to stop her. Many criminals sending out announcements of their crimes might actually be screaming „Somebody, please stop me!“. Even though of course they can not be forgiven.
K That is why she painted herself as the sole culprit and wanted for Battler to solve it, right?!
I think this is RK07's coy way of saying: "Yeah, it doesn't make sense right? Think about it."

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Going on. In Ep 7 Tea Party Yasu said he had envisioned any possible scenarios. It’s possible she wrote them down and those scenarios became the messages in the bottles. We know only of three messages in the bottle but it’s possible there were more, with different scenarios, even ones with Battler dying on the first twilight or with Ange being present or with the weather being sunny.

By coincidence the ones that were found didn’t have Ange and had a storm. It might be that she assumed those scenarios were more plausible so there were less scenarios with Ange coming or a storm not happening or that she had tossed away the scenarios that didn’t fit with the situation. If the bottles were abandoned in the sea the day before the family conference by then she would have already known about the storm and Ange’s extremely low chance of coming.
This is way too convoluted, which is why I don't think we're supposed to even by looking at it so closely. I'll use the same example as before: it's like solving one Beatrice's closed rooms with small bombs, when in fact the trick is that it was never closed in the first place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Possibility number 1.

Ange’s travel is real. If the messages in the bottles were sent after the incident either the police was wrong or Otsuki was wrong. They’re spreading info that are false. Let’s start from the police...
Well, the only way it's "real" requires Kakera Theory. So...

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Possibility number 2

Now usually in fiction nothing happens without a purpose. In the books that explain how to write a story you generally find stuffs like ‘don’t waste your time and bore your reader writing random facts that has no use whatsoever for your story’...
...Sure, Umineko is full of misleading information, but they exist for the purpose of making more difficult to find out the truth, they aren’t just randomly tossed in. Then something improbable, impossible is randomly tossed in (like people not getting wet) it’s there merely because you must not think at it too deeply.
Yeah well what if all of this stuff is told to us for the purpose of making it difficult to realize Beatrice's nature (or in fact, it's a lie that reflects her true nature and is actually a hint)? Remember, Itouikukuro Reigonamu is a team. If Ikuko is Yasu this all fits together perfectly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Although it's not hard to realize anybody who did survive would be broke.
Fits with Ikuko=Yasu
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