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Old 2011-09-11, 13:08   Link #24341
Wanderer
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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
Well regarding this I'd argue for option number 1.
My reason for that is, that Beatrice is portrayed as dying on October 6th 1986.
Kind of. There's a lot of metaphor going on in that scene, so there's quite a few ways to interpret it. For example, Beatrice's reference to "returning to the world of illusions" and "her and Battler belonging to separate worlds" could mean not that Beatrice completely "died", but that she can't exist outside of Rokkenjima. So, what happened was that Beatrice and the real Battler personality stayed behind in the world of Rokkenjima, in "the world of illusions", and together the two of them left behind a catbox. I thought it interesting that on Oct. 6 1986 Battler was speaking openly with Beatrice, because Beatrice is an illusion and doesn't normally talk with people directly unless the conditions are right, such as October 4-5 1986 Rokkenjima. However, by October 6th the laws of the real world began to return and Beatrice was forced to go back to the world of illusions. But, Battler went with her. So basically I mean to say that Beatrice can't leave October 4-5 Rokkenjima 1986 and neither can Battler (metaphorically, of course). Thus, they repeat it endlessly.

It makes sense within my theory that Beatrice is still active post-incident. Touya asserts Battler's existence through his fiction, but that Battler cannot exisit outisde of 1986 Rokkenjima. Similarly, Yasu asserts Beatrice's existence through the bottle conspiracy, but that Beatrice also cannot exist outside of 1986 Rokkenjima.

I think it's a reasonable interpretation, at least.
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Old 2011-09-11, 13:21   Link #24342
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
That Beatrice is dead and can't possibly be revived.
Is this meant to be a quote from episode 6?
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Old 2011-09-11, 23:20   Link #24343
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
As I said I tend to consider the meta characters as Toya's creations, which means to me Beatrice is also something he mostly made up.
After all how many chances to interact with Beatrice Battler might have had on Rokkenjima?

He saw her portrait for sure but, apart from this?
I still imagine that the actual meeting between Battler and "Beatrice" played out quite similar to what we've seen in EP4. That is him meeting a strange girl in old fashioned, western clothing who asks him about a certain sin that he could not immediatly remember.
This was probably all that Tya could reconstruct by the time he wrote Alliance and it is what pushed him into his personality crisis at the end in the first place. It's the question wether it's even worth it if he is not even Ushiromiya Battler, which explains the reaction of both Battler and Beatrice if both are only constructed by Tya in his struggle towards the truth about Battler's memory.

Of course after this something different must have occured, as somehow he must have been shown the way outside. I still have the feeling that the whole escape with Beatrice on the 6th is constructed on the part of her being with him.
When talking to Yukari he constantly switches between singular and plural when talking about who escaped, which hints towards him actually being alone. The hint would make no sense otherwise and would actually be a clue towards that scene being at least false in terms of Beatrice/Yasu being with him (adding to my theory that this was a gift by Featherine - maybe not even Ikuko - to Tya to give him closure).
There is also the strange way in which Beatrice talks in that scene. Especially the line 「せっかく生きて出られたのに・・・」, which could be "even though you were made to leave the island alive" (though derareta is not clearly passive or potential at this point). She says how he was enabled to leave the island...it is so passively constructed that I highly assume that she actually never left the island with him...probably not even entered the underground harbour with him.

Of course I agree, Beatrice in how we see her is a construction made by Tya. It's an amalgamation of everything his memory could muster up, fused with what Yasu probably inserted into the message bottles and this created what we perceived as the golden witch Beatrice.
Of course this sheds a rather strange view on Battler marrying his reborn self in his mind...but could also be viewed as him finally regaining closure and acceptance about what he can actually think of whom, including the woman he obviously was in love with.
This also sheds an interesting light on a possible interpretation towards the forced wedding with Erika. It could show how he was (because of his inability to give all his family members absolution) forced to bow to the public opinion, that somebody (like Natsuhi i EP5) was guilty of murder no matter how much he struggles. Only through his Dawn theory was he able to break free from that doubt and totally emerge himself in the fantasy that Yasu had created for him. Thus it ended with him breaking of the marriage with Erika (cold reason) and opened up his future with his very own Beatrice (his own Golden truth).

Oh god...it's so cheesy it's sweet again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Sure, it can be argued that if Yasu's body is alive and she's not suffering amnesia the fact that the Beatrice persona is dead is meaningless.
My problem, beside agreeing with Jan-Poo totally that it would lessen any dramatic impact on Battler's and Yasu's story, is also a problem with narrative construction that was established in Umineko regarding Beatrice and death in general.

Beatrice the Golden witch is dead either way, as Yasu decided that her role was over as soon as the gold was discovered. Therefore even the scene at the submarine harbour hints at the fact that we are dealing not with the meta-projection of Beatrice the Golden witch that Tya created after reading the 1st message bottle, but rather a combination of everything that was Yasu. A great hint for me towards that is also the fact that she talks about them arriving at this point and coming back to the point where they met 3 generations ago...which actually shows self-reflection that she sees herself as the lineage of Beatrices starting with Castiglioni and not as the 1000 year old witch which was created by the stories.
But not only that...

Assuming that Yasu was alive and had suffered amnesia and all her characters are dead because any memory of her was left behind:
She could not become Ikuko, as it is quite probable that she found Tya rather soon after the incident. It must have still been at least within a year, as they would have to start writing, publishing, finding the message bottles, etc.
For the Ikuko persona she needs a certain ammount of reputation which could of course have been bought with the right ammount of money, but she wouldn't remember that money or any need to construct a fake personality, let alone Battler, in the first place.
So if Yasu actually suffered amnesia it is highly likely that she is not Ikuko. This again makes it not only unlikely that she surived, but also completely irrelevant to the plot, as she does not make any further contact with the characters.

Assuming that Yasu was alive and remembered everything and all her characters are dead merely because Yasu decided that they are dead:
This would actually imply that she changed her mind at a point that is absolutely unobservable to the reader, something that is not even hinted at. It is a possible solution but calls for the reader to read everything that Beatrice and her characters told us as exactly the opposite and assume that to be true.
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Old 2011-09-12, 02:55   Link #24344
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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
My problem, beside agreeing with Jan-Poo totally that it would lessen any dramatic impact on Battler's and Yasu's story, is also a problem with narrative construction that was established in Umineko regarding Beatrice and death in general.
One thing I really, really don't like about Yasu writing pre-incident is that it demonstrates premeditation, and that she was willing to take the lives of (nearly) all the people on the island, people she loved, out of "love-madness" or something. Even if she didn't kill them herself, it means she knew (or at least strongly suspected) that something would go wrong, and even consciously facilitated it ("here's the gold, some guns, a bomb switch, and a card with a shitload of money on it. Have fun kthxbye"). And then once BATTLER learns the truth, he seems to be OK with this. Not cool. "Dramatic impact" or not, it's fucking disgusting.

BATTLER solves Beatrice's game at the end of episode 5; the implied answer is that it's best to believe in his family. We know this was Yasu's intent because BATTLER "understood her game completely". It would be a very strange message to write pre-incident, and hardly one to expect from a premeditating mass murderer.

Yasu is a good person who just wanted everyone to be happy. She feels responsible for inadvertently triggering a bloodbath by presenting the gold to the siblings. That is her sin; it's why Beatrice hides in the shadows and why she takes the blame upon herself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
Assuming that Yasu was alive and remembered everything and all her characters are dead merely because Yasu decided that they are dead:
This would actually imply that she changed her mind at a point that is absolutely unobservable to the reader, something that is not even hinted at.
I'm not sure why all her characters would have to be dead, but here's a hint anyway, and it's in plain sight:
Kanon is dead. Shannon is dead. In fiction Beatrice can, and does, "kill" them at will.

The meaning of metaphorical death isn't consistent anyway:
  • In Banquet Shannon and Kanon are both dead but "resurrect".
  • Beatrice "dies" in episode 5, but is reconstructed at the end of episode 6.
  • Ange gets ripped to shreds in the meta-world, but we know that was a metaphor for Touya's lost opportunity to meet her.
  • Touya says yes when Yukari asks if he's Battler, but later admits that he's not truly Battler.
  • Lambdadelta "died" in episode 8, but not really.
  • Ange jumps to her death in the Capital of Books, but wakes up alive in The Golden Land.
  • Everyone dies in The Golden Land and reappears in the Capital of Books.
  • Sakutarou was killed by Rosa, but "resurrected" by Ange.
  • Ange destroyed all of her magical friends, but revived them later.
And so on and so forth. Each and every one of these can be explained, but not all in the same way.
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Old 2011-09-12, 05:12   Link #24345
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Yasu is a good person who just wanted everyone to be happy.
I'll do you one better.

Yasu doesn't love herself enough to bear any ill will to anyone. She is harmless.
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Old 2011-09-12, 09:27   Link #24346
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Is this meant to be a quote from episode 6?
Yes, that Beatrice will never revive again.
It's not just a random quote, it's a red truth.

I think that the only way to fully make sense out of EP6 and the Beatrice you see there is to consider "Beatrice" as a character. Not a persona nor a personality, a character.
Tohya didn't become Beatrice at any time, he simply managed to revive the character Beatrice, naturally he could only do that if by "Beatrice" we mean "Beatrice" as a character.

However the red truth clearly states that that Beatrice will never revive again.
This can only mean that the original creator of Beatrice will no longer play that role or use that character.

But why? And how could that notion reach the level of a red truth? If it isn't 100% it can't become a red truth.
Of course if the original creator is dead that is easily explainable.

Now let's say that Yasu survived and that she is Ikuko.
But Ikuko technically wrote stories with Beatrice as a character in them. Wouldn't that make that Beatrice revived?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Yeah that would be as stupid as Battler surviving, but having amnesia... wait a second...
Quote:
I guess Ryukishi meant that the Beatrice Persona can't be revived anymore for (insert random reason here).
"Random reason" is a bit vague. There is a readily available explanation for all that and it can be easily spotted: Beatrice is dead.
You think there is another reason? To make me consider that you should at least try to come up with an explanation and it should be a good one.

I guess that the "you can't put this past Ryuukishi" is a good argument in itself, but that alone doesn't work.

Just to give you an example of what I mean, last time I talked to chronotrig he told me that in his opionion Tohya is not Battler, Battler died in the incident and all the rest is a lie.

So basically the very opposite of what Wanderer sustains.
Can you put that past Ryuukishi? No.
Does that mean it's automatically true? No.
Does that make it probable? Yet again, no.


Quote:
One thing I really, really don't like about Yasu writing pre-incident is that it demonstrates premeditation, and that she was willing to take the lives of (nearly) all the people on the island, people she loved, out of "love-madness" or something. Even if she didn't kill them herself, it means she knew (or at least strongly suspected) that something would go wrong, and even consciously facilitated it ("here's the gold, some guns, a bomb switch, and a card with a shitload of money on it. Have fun kthxbye"). And then once BATTLER learns the truth, he seems to be OK with this. Not cool. "Dramatic impact" or not, it's fucking disgusting.
Well yeah, but face it, that's exactly what you see in EP8. Beatrice tells Battler that she killed hundreds (sic) of people and Battler is fine with that.
Whether that's true or not, it's not like Battler doesn't believe her. He believes she exists and that she did all that, and yet he is fine with that.


There's another thing that it cannot be denied. When Beatrice became the heir Genji must have told her about the bomb. A perfectly sane and responsible person would have disposed off of that monstrosity asap. At the very least she should have made remove the trigger. Knowing about that thing and not doing anything about it is by itself a crime in my view. Knowing that that thing exploded in the end I cannot say that Beatrice didn't have any part on that.
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Old 2011-09-12, 11:42   Link #24347
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Inaction may be culpability, but it isn't necessarily guilt. A reasonable, rational person probably would have ordered the explosives disarmed, but quite honestly we don't even know what the explosives really are or how they're rigged up and most people agree the description of them given in ep7 is impossible, so how they actually work or whether it's even "realistic" that they'd work the way Ryukishi intended is utterly unknown.

Perhaps they're unstable and impossible to disarm. Then you still owe people a warning to leave the island, but that's slightly different from the culpability level of being able to defuse it and not doing so.

Or perhaps they could have been disarmed, but Yasu was in no mind to really think about that at the time. Dealing with a lot of heavy stuff, perhaps slipping into depression, she just never brought it up again and Genji didn't suggest disarming it.

We can also consider that events may not have actually played out exactly as ep7 suggests. It's possible Yasu wasn't actually told for whatever reason. Or didn't believe it. Or figured they were inert 40 years after the fact. Perhaps she had no way to check. Perhaps GenSawaJo lied to her. Perhaps True Culprit X knew she'd want it disabled, told her he'd done so, but really hadn't.

Perhaps it's all B.S. and there really weren't explosives and your volcano theory or a mudslide is actually what happened. Who knows? Maybe those parts of ep7 detailing the bomb mechanism were wild speculation. Remember where the part where Beatrice goes over the arming device in intricate detail appears. Sure, there's mention of it elsewhere, but there's no telling.

To suggest any person (Yasu or otherwise) deliberately armed the bomb is to suggest either that they intended to kill anyone who remained alive in the vicinity of the mansion at the time of detonation or that they believed everyone in the vicinity to be dead and intended to destroy everything to cover it up (for one reason or another). There is some understandable justification for the latter, none really for the former. And in any event, I find it hard to believe Yasu capable of doing the former, but I could see her doing the latter. Quite easily in fact. But I don't believe she'd do that unless she knew (or genuinely believed) no one would actually be killed.
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Old 2011-09-12, 12:04   Link #24348
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I'll toss in a couple of theories... okay, more than a couple. As usual they could need to undergo under revision once I'll read the whole version of Ep 8.

Yasu began writing about the Rokkenjima murders before the Rokkenjima incident, either for fun or either to emulate Maria. Later those tales became or were rewritten to become the message bottles. (which were either sent before or after the incident, I'll leave this part up to you)
  • Yasu has a definite love for mystery and if she became Ikuko she might have been interested in writing mysteries prior to the Rokkenjima incident. Now, she saw very little of the outside world and in many 'how to write' books is suggested to write about WHAT YOU KNOW. She knows Rokkenjima and its people so that's what she used. No harmful intent here.
  • Maria began killing her mother in her mind. She also said something that implied that to Battler. Yasu might have written down tales in which she killed everyone to vent her frustration in a perfectly innocent way.

This work either if you believe Yasu didn't want to kill anyone on Rokkenjima or if she killed someone in the end.
I doubt Yasu started out deciding to kill everyone. It's not so easy to turn yourself into a murderer, especially when some of the people involved are friends.
Writing about killing sometimes might help getting rid of your frustration... sometimes however can become an obsession and get you in the right set of mind (of course if you're having mind problems at the moment...)

Either way in this way she would have all the time to premeditate the thing without having at first a killing intent. Feel free to choose if she built it up later.
Also she would have the time to work carefully on the plot that later would be used for the messages in the bottles. The messages known are at least 3, possibly more. She needed time to study the plot to make it good.

Also, in Ep 1 is implied that typhoons often happened when there was a family meeting (the siblings talk about how it would be a good idea to change the day of the meeting just for this) so it could be that the typhoon was part of the original plot of the tales already, or that it was edited in later. Do your pick.

On Rokkenjima, around the time of the family conference was usually kept an Halloween party, at least when Kinzo was alive, in which were also made jokes and games.

It's said by Ep 8. In Ep 2 however Maria doesn't seem to expect it, although she sort of get her wish. It's possible that Natsuhi and Krauss didn't make an Halloween party the year before when Kinzo was dead using the excuse he was in a bad mood so the fact that there could be a Halloween party in 1986 wasn't an ordinary fact anymore.

In 1986 it was decided by someone to revive the Halloween party. The game is supposed to be a mystery based on Yasu's tales and involving the witch epitaph. For Yasu however the purpose is to decide how to deal with Battler and George.

Toya remembers having been challenged into something that was a mystery game (if the summary I read is not wrong). Now if people were to die for real 'mystery game' would be a very soft term to describe serial murders... though since he can't remember things well it might still work.
Also in Ep 4 it was pointed out how Jessica's phone call was weird, as if she knew how she would die but wasn't threatened into making it. If Jessica was told it was a game and how silly they had been into believing in the story of the magic holes and how now she was supposed to make a phone call in which she would trick Battler it would fit. Later she was killed (as Krauss was killed after a phonecall in Ep 5).

In the beginning who 'died' in the mystery game wasn't really supposed to die but merely tp play dead.

Yasu needed accomplices to make the mystery game work, even if she was merely planning to fake her own dead. I can't believe Nanjo, Gohda or Kumasawa would side with her if they were to know she planned a serial murder. However everyone would feel it was his duty to help if it was a game to humour the family.

I've no idea if the game managed to reach the point of fake death because...

Someone either solved the epitaph or found the gold with other means. The adults were likely involved in the discovering of the gold. It's possible Battler was involved as well. Once they did they got some explanations by 'Beatrice'.

The gold was definitely discovered since Eva could use the tunnel for Kuwadorian and get Kinzo's ring. For Toya to also have knowledge of many of the things involving the gold is necessary he either got a separate explanation later or that he was present when the others figured out the explanation. My best guess to who solved the epitaph is Battler and Eva together (in place of Battler and Erika in Ep 5) but with minor hints from the rest of the family.

It's possible, that prior or after or during this moment 'Beatrice' tossed in the topic of Battler's sin.

I don't really know about this one. The scene might have been similar to the one in Ep 4 or pretty different. Surely the topic must have popped up for Toya to know that his actions were what caused 'Beatrice''s actions though the original scene could have been different by what we see in Ep 4.

Once the gold was found murders began to happen for real.

Do your pick for the reason: incident, paranoyc behaviour (be it because if one died for incident the other might have been scared and do not realize it was an incident and overreacted... Rosa, for example, might have issues with seeing dead people with head splits open), killing intent, a moment of rage that caused people to forget that if you push a trigger you might kill someone...

Murders escalates. It's possible Battler gets shot as well. Yasu, who might have considered being the only one who would die that night, changes her mind and drags him away from the island. Eva either knows or believes she's the only survivor and covers up everything using the bomb.

It seems in Ep 8 he complained he had abdominal pain. Sure, it doesn't necessary mean a bullet but in Ep 3 he had a flash in which he was shot. Note that it's very random as Eva apparently shot him all of sudden for no reason at all and we know she wasn't the sole culprit due to Nanjo's death. In addition to this it's the only game in which Battler knows how he died.
I'm not sure however it was Eva who shot him.
Toya is aware that Kyrie, despite never showing it, despised his existence due to Asumu (Kyrie felt jealous for 18 years, which is Battler's age, not 12, which is the time that Asumu's marriage lasted).
It's possible Rudolf managed to tell him the truth about his mother (or that he found it out somehow) but that Kyrie didn't know it.
Having your own mother shooting at you might have been definitely traumatic.
Also Battler and trembling boats do not get along well, we're told this ab nauseam so it's rather hard to picture he would calmly get on a boat if he was conscious. If given the choise he would likely choose to go to Kuwadorian or, at least, to the forest, not to escape on a boat.

Battler, either due to blood loss or psychological trauma loses his memory. Yasu takes the identity of Ikuko, which she likely prepared previously.

Now, I'm not sure why she prepared it. It's possible Yasu knew she would never be able to manage to marry George or to be Jessica's boyfriend so the fact that, there would have been a tragedy no matter in which year Battler were to return, although if he were to chose another year it would be smaller, would refer to both Shannon and Kanon disappearing, maybe simulating suicide and taking Ikuko's identity.
Maybe there's another reason I can't think of at the moment and that will dawn on me once I'll read the Ikuko's part.

In short:
Yasu didn't mean to kill anyone which is why Toya, knowing the truth, can get over what she did just fine. Likely Kyrie and/or Rudolf killed someone and possibly Eva too. Toya probably merely decided to deal with it remembering their best sides and not what had happened in the Rokkenjima incident.

For Toya/Battler to forgive Beatrice so easily if she were to be the real culprit would be a little too much. But, if she planned to 'murder' only in a game and not for real and real murders happened for another reason, it might be easy to get over it.
Ep 8 is mostly focused on the importance of remembering the good sides of his family, completely neglecting who was the culprit. By the time Toya wrote Ep 8 the culprit/culprits was/were likely dead so no justice could be found.
Living in hate of the culprit would have been painful so he probably decided to forgive and forget and pretend all that had happened had been an INCIDENT.

Now, it's hard to explain so many deaths with the word 'incident'. I can believe some people were shot by incident but the death count is definitely too high to label everything as 'incident' so I think this is merely his own personal embellishment of the truth.

There are some other theories on which I'm working and that regard Rokkenjima Prime but, for now, I'll stop here.
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Old 2011-09-12, 12:20   Link #24349
Wanderer
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Yes, that Beatrice will never revive again.
It's not just a random quote, it's a red truth.

However the red truth clearly states that that Beatrice will never revive again.
This can only mean that the original creator of Beatrice will no longer play that role or use that character.

But why? And how could that notion reach the level of a red truth? If it isn't 100% it can't become a red truth.
Of course if the original creator is dead that is easily explainable.
You seem to be taking this line out of context. It should be obvious, but if you are going to use that particular line, you will have to have an explanation why "that" Beatrice was "alive" in episodes 3, 4, and 5, which is long after Rokkenjima 1986, when Beatrice's original creator supposedly died.

Here, I'll help:
Of course the obvious explanation would be that Beatrice was "alive" purely as a meta-projection of Touya's mind created by his memories and reading of the bottle-stories, who later became convinced that Beatrice was an illusion, which triggered her "death" in such a way that she could no longer be revived in the same form.

However, if you follow this line of reasoning, then that Beatrice really belonged to Touya all along; whether she is "alive" or not is purely a matter of whether Touya recognizes her as such and the life or death status of Touya's Beatrice is a separate matter than that of Yasu's Beatrice.

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Well yeah, but face it, that's exactly what you see in EP8. Beatrice tells Battler that she killed hundreds (sic) of people and Battler is fine with that.
Are you kidding? She's obviously not talking about the ~16 real people on the island. This is in fact a very, very good reason to think she was innocent: Why the fuck would she bother apologizing for killing them in fiction if she actually fucking killed them?

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
There's another thing that it cannot be denied. When Beatrice became the heir Genji must have told her about the bomb. A perfectly sane and responsible person would have disposed off of that monstrosity asap. At the very least she should have made remove the trigger. Knowing about that thing and not doing anything about it is by itself a crime in my view. Knowing that that thing exploded in the end I cannot say that Beatrice didn't have any part on that.
Renall covered this pretty well, but I'll add this one: She never imagined that anyone would be stupid enough to actually use it. It may seem obvious that they would, but we and the fictions have the advantage of hindsight. An important implication of post-incident authorship is that it means that the writer did not expect the original incident.
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Old 2011-09-12, 12:32   Link #24350
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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
I still imagine that the actual meeting between Battler and "Beatrice" played out quite similar to what we've seen in EP4. That is him meeting a strange girl in old fashioned, western clothing who asks him about a certain sin that he could not immediatly remember.
It's a theory I'm considering but I'm not sure about it because Ep 7 presents a rather different Beatrice when she has to interact with other people. Ep 7 was likely written when Toya had his memory back so it's likely closer to the truth.

So... hum... I don't know. In Ep 4 it's implied Yasu might have been drunk when he played Beatrice's role in that moment, so this can have helped her to act like that even if in truth 'Beatrice' wasn't at all that energetic.

It can also be that Yasu confronted Battler about the promise, he said he didn't remember, either because he didn't or because he knew Shannon and George were a couple and Yasu got so hurt by this that, when she faced the siblings, she was completely demotivated.

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
When talking to Yukari he constantly switches between singular and plural when talking about who escaped, which hints towards him actually being alone. The hint would make no sense otherwise and would actually be a clue towards that scene being at least false in terms of Beatrice/Yasu being with him (adding to my theory that this was a gift by Featherine - maybe not even Ikuko - to Tya to give him closure).
Wait, explain this better to poor little me who can't read it. When talking with Ange he used the plural as if to imply he escaped with someone else and then switched to singular? And Ange didn't ask him with whom he escaped the first time he used the plural? Ange might have been interested in this, as it means there could have been the chance someone else from her family might have survived...

Quote:
Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
There is also the strange way in which Beatrice talks in that scene. Especially the line 「せっかく生きて出られたのに・・・」, which could be "even though you were made to leave the island alive" (though derareta is not clearly passive or potential at this point). She says how he was enabled to leave the island...it is so passively constructed that I highly assume that she actually never left the island with him...probably not even entered the underground harbour with him.
Ehm... without more knowledge of the scene I can't really judge what's going on...

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
This also sheds an interesting light on a possible interpretation towards the forced wedding with Erika. It could show how he was (because of his inability to give all his family members absolution) forced to bow to the public opinion, that somebody (like Natsuhi i EP5) was guilty of murder no matter how much he struggles. Only through his Dawn theory was he able to break free from that doubt and totally emerge himself in the fantasy that Yasu had created for him. Thus it ended with him breaking of the marriage with Erika (cold reason) and opened up his future with his very own Beatrice (his own Golden truth).
I had a couple of pet theories on the whole marriage thing as well as on Erika but I'm still working on them.

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
Beatrice the Golden witch is dead either way, as Yasu decided that her role was over as soon as the gold was discovered. Therefore even the scene at the submarine harbour hints at the fact that we are dealing not with the meta-projection of Beatrice the Golden witch that Tya created after reading the 1st message bottle, but rather a combination of everything that was Yasu.
For me that Beatrice too is a Meta as I don't think the scene took place the way we saw it, however that Beatrice was likely a Beatrice closer to the truth. In short no more a nearly pure fantasy of Toya based on tiny fragments of memories and feelings he couldn't quite place but a Beatrice built around Yasu's Beatrice persona... or Yasu herself.

However for me the scene is full of metaphors (even them escaping with the gold... Yasu must know they couldn't change it with real money without connections so dragging the gold with them would be pointless... the PIN of the bank account would be much better) so I guess my interpretation differ from yours.

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
Assuming that Yasu was alive and remembered everything and all her characters are dead merely because Yasu decided that they are dead:
This would actually imply that she changed her mind at a point that is absolutely unobservable to the reader, something that is not even hinted at. It is a possible solution but calls for the reader to read everything that Beatrice and her characters told us as exactly the opposite and assume that to be true.
I don't think Yasu had amnesia. As for changing her point of view I've noticed that in Ep 3 to 6 there's a more or less recurring theme as Battler and Beatrice somehow tries to help each other.

In Ep. 3 Battler saves Beatos heart from being crushed. She later will save him from Eva Beatrice.
In Ep 4 Beatrice asks Battler to put an end to her pain killing her (if you want it can be read as saving her from the pain) and he agrees. She will concede him the victory although Lambda and Bern will confirm Battlers ideas werent right.
In Ep 5 Battler helps her to escape from Kinzos room and tries to defend her and Natsuhi. Hes willing to risk his own existence for this. We cant quite say Beato saved him back, although Battler inherited her titles and powers and, in a fashion, the fact he kept trying to think at their previous games trying to figure her out saved him.
In Ep 6 Battler gives Beato a new body, then does everything he can to correct the logic error, apart from using Kanon, apparently in hope that Beato would regain memory. Beato regains memory and saves Battler.

Actually Ep 8 too has Beato showing Battler a way to escape and Battler trying to save Beato from sinking and, when he couldnt deciding to sink with her.

So it's possible that Battler had done something that could be labelled as 'helping/saving her' and that pushed her to return the favor, chosing to live.

I've still no idea why she prepared Ikuko's identity beforehand. I can toss in a couple of theories but I'd like to have more direct knowledge about that part first...
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Old 2011-09-12, 12:40   Link #24351
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
One thing I really, really don't like about Yasu writing pre-incident is that it demonstrates premeditation, and that she was willing to take the lives of (nearly) all the people on the island, people she loved, out of "love-madness" or something. Even if she didn't kill them herself, it means she knew (or at least strongly suspected) that something would go wrong, and even consciously facilitated it ("here's the gold, some guns, a bomb switch, and a card with a shitload of money on it. Have fun kthxbye"). And then once BATTLER learns the truth, he seems to be OK with this. Not cool. "Dramatic impact" or not, it's fucking disgusting.
I always had the feeling Yasu didn't really want to kill anyone in Rokkenjima Prime. Now handing the rifles and the bomb can seem pretty random but it's possible Ep 7 Tea Party didn't construct the scene well so we got from it a completely wrong impression. After all the idea was to present us with the most unpleasant truth possible.

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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
BATTLER solves Beatrice's game at the end of episode 5; the implied answer is that it's best to believe in his family. We know this was Yasu's intent because BATTLER "understood her game completely". It would be a very strange message to write pre-incident, and hardly one to expect from a premeditating mass murderer.
I'm not sure what you mean. I think someone must have killed someone else on Rokkenjima, though it's possible things went so differently from what we saw that the culprit/culprits had reasons for doing what they did that justified their actions (don't ask me which ones. I can think up of some but there's too much death people to think up a logic excuse for all those murders).

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Yasu is a good person who just wanted everyone to be happy. She feels responsible for inadvertently triggering a bloodbath by presenting the gold to the siblings. That is her sin; it's why Beatrice hides in the shadows and why she takes the blame upon herself.
This sounds reasonable enough.

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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
The meaning of metaphorical death isn't consistent anyway:
  • In Banquet Shannon and Kanon are both dead but "resurrect".
  • Beatrice "dies" in episode 5, but is reconstructed at the end of episode 6.
  • Ange gets ripped to shreds in the meta-world, but we know that was a metaphor for Touya's lost opportunity to meet her.
  • Touya says yes when Yukari asks if he's Battler, but later admits that he's not truly Battler.
  • Lambdadelta "died" in episode 8, but not really.
  • Ange jumps to her death in the Capital of Books, but wakes up alive in The Golden Land.
  • Everyone dies in The Golden Land and reappears in the Capital of Books.
  • Sakutarou was killed by Rosa, but "resurrected" by Ange.
  • Ange destroyed all of her magical friends, but revived them later.
And so on and so forth. Each and every one of these can be explained, but not all in the same way.
*nods* Yes, as I've said in a previous post Umineko seems to hint quite a lot toward metaphorical deaths for them to be surprising.

Actually I'll be more surprised if Yasu is really dead...
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Old 2011-09-12, 13:15   Link #24352
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Yasu might have written down tales in which she killed everyone to vent her frustration in a perfectly innocent way.
I'd like to add that in "Jessica and the Killer Electric Fan", Jessica writes a play in which her friend Saku's character is dragged through various horrible experiences because Saku annoyed her and she wanted to vent.
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Old 2011-09-12, 13:26   Link #24353
Cao Ni Ma
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On Rokkenjima, around the time of the family conference was usually kept an Halloween party, at least when Kinzo was alive, in which were also made jokes and games.
I had a theory long before EP8 came out that such parties could have occurred. Hell, the moment they kicked out the kids off the dining room to talk nasty things about inheritances could have been used to talk about their preparations for said party. It also solves an inconvenient problem, convincing people to willingly go to the storage shed or the chapel or dragging their corpses there. It also would have turned out to be a sweeter twist, the adults weren't really bad people and got killed while they where trying to do a nice thing for Maria and the others.
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Old 2011-09-12, 13:27   Link #24354
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Yes, that Beatrice will never revive again.
It's not just a random quote, it's a red truth.
'That Beatrice' doesn't really refer to Yasu but to the Beatrice Toya constructed in his mind. However, once he recovered a sufficient portion of his memory he realized 'that Beatrice' didn't match with the real Yasu so he couldn't force that image on her again. From here the birth of the 'new Beatrice' who's merely the new perception he has of Beatrice after he knew the truth.

Each time Battler tried to resurrect the first Beato we see she's an illusion. I guess for him believing her to be real would be like for us to believe Santa Claus is real after knowing he's not. We can't force ourself to ignore the fact we know Santa Claus is not real, in the same way Battler can't force himself to ignore the first Beato wasn't real, he just made them up.




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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Now let's say that Yasu survived and that she is Ikuko.
But Ikuko technically wrote stories with Beatrice as a character in them. Wouldn't that make that Beatrice revived?
If 'that Beatrice' is the the Beatrice built up by an amnesiac Toya and that lived only in his mind no, Yasu can't. She probably doesn't even have a clear idea of how she was. Theoretically Toya could revive her but, now that he knows the truth, he can't manage it anymore.

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"Random reason" is a bit vague. There is a readily available explanation for all that and it can be easily spotted: Beatrice is dead.
You think there is another reason? To make me consider that you should at least try to come up with an explanation and it should be a good one.
Can't I use Devil's proof? ^_-
Just joking, my reason is the one I've explained previously. Beato can't be revived because now Toya knows the truth about her.

It's also possible that Ikuko is not helping as maybe she's not really in a rush to admit she's Yasu and Toya can't prove it. Ep 6 it's based mostly on the attempt of the new Beato and Battler to get along as well as the efforts from Battler to get Beato to 'remember' while instead she tries to be what he wants her to be.

I tend to replace 'remember' with 'admit' when I apply the thing to Toya and Ikuko. Ep 7 must have been done following Yasu's confession so my theory is that Ep 6 is a metaphor to represent the fact that Toya managed to get her to admit it and Ep 7 is merely her giving him that part of info he couldn't know because they regarded Yasu directly.

To go further in this there's another person that can't be resurrected and that person is the 12 year old Shannon that Battler loved. Even if she and Ikuko are the same person how many years had gone?

She likely changed not just in body but also in personality and I don't know if she would be capable to go back to how she was before. Likely she was different from 12 year old Shannon in 1986 already, since the game remarks that Shannon is slightly different from how she was as a kid.

I think most of Battler's affection for Beatrice is a projection of the affection for 12 year old Shannon. Now, nothing stopped him from having feelings for her again in 1986 or for Ikuko but I guess the fact that 12 year old Shannon, 1986 Shannon and Ikuko are likely different one from another didn't made the switching so smooth in the same way as he at first couldn't get along with new Beato.

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There's another thing that it cannot be denied. When Beatrice became the heir Genji must have told her about the bomb. A perfectly sane and responsible person would have disposed off of that monstrosity asap. At the very least she should have made remove the trigger. Knowing about that thing and not doing anything about it is by itself a crime in my view. Knowing that that thing exploded in the end I cannot say that Beatrice didn't have any part on that.
I don't like the story about the bomb either. There's to say Yasu is young and she might have failed to see consequences. Also disposing of that mostruosity in secret might have been not so easy. Personally I would have told Genji to hand the solution of the epitaph to Krauss but maybe, after hearing Natsuhi tossed her down of a cliff, she actually wasn't that willing of making him the new Ushiromiya heir so easily as Ep 7 let us think.

So, as Kinzo died and she saw Krauss was having financial troubles and to cover up things Natsuhi decided to lie to everyone and pretend Kinzo was alive, she decided to let them deal with the mess he caused on their own.

It's not kind but it's understandable enough she wasn't all rainbows and sunshine toward them.

As for the bomb she might have dismissed it with the silly idea that 'since it didn't blow up previously as long as no one touches it, it won't blow up now'.

Not what I'll think, honestly, but I saw older people thinking stupider things so I wouldn't be surprised.
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Old 2011-09-12, 14:49   Link #24355
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Re-reading some of RKs interviews, he keeps mentioning that posting the truth point blank would be rude to the people that reached it. Its one of those lines that he keeps repeating that makes me roll my eyes. I really cant imagine people that wouldn't mind having more closure to the events in Umineko.

Then I started thinking , what if these people aren't real? Maybe he's honoring their wishes instead.
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Old 2011-09-12, 14:57   Link #24356
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Also, in Ep 1 is implied that typhoons often happened when there was a family meeting (the siblings talk about how it would be a good idea to change the day of the meeting just for this) so it could be that the typhoon was part of the original plot of the tales already, or that it was edited in later. Do your pick.
You're still talking like there are only two possible weather patterns: That either A) there will be a typhoon that starts on the afternoon of the 4th and ends on the morning of the 6th, or B) that there won't. Describing the weather is not a simple either/or question; to reasonably cover all bases would require... I dunno... at least a dozen of stories. Double that for the Ange contingency (which she would have to consider a reasonable-enough possibility to account for in the first place). And on top of that we know she wrote at the very least 2 stories to fit one particular scenario (the real one). So, to flesh out this plot would require at least like... 50 unique stories.

And editing is all but impossible when your story is hand-written, you know.

It's all nonsense; you're wasting your energies giving it this much consideration. The best answer for non-post-writing is that she wrote 2 or 3 stories in the day or so prior or maybe even overnight between the 5th and 6th.

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In 1986 it was decided by someone to revive the Halloween party. The game is supposed to be a mystery based on Yasu's tales and involving the witch epitaph. For Yasu however the purpose is to decide how to deal with Battler and George.)
This is an interesting idea. It fits well with the fantasy themes in the stories (assuming they are included in writing), fake deaths (as a Halloween prank), and even the "costumes" Yasu wears. It explains Kanon's presence as just one of Yasu's Halloween games, which the adults humor. There's also the fact that a murder game becoming murder reality did actually happen in both episodes 5 and 6. It also makes sense in interpreting the end of the epitaph where all the souls of the dead are resurrected... because, well, they're not really dead.

It explains the phone calls in Alliance fairly well. You also mentioned Yasu using it to make a decision between Battler and George. Well, if you add her two other favorite people: Jessica (her third love interest) and Maria (her best friend), it makes the setup for the cousins' "trials" in Alliance pretty interesting. Although convincing Battler and the cousins (unless they were in on it too) that Kinzo has been killing his own family for some kind of ritual is certainly not my idea of fun. And there's the fact that everyone died in reality, and that apparently Yasu was the last alive and committed actual suicide in a way that makes it look like she was killed by someone else. Also very strange is how the perpetrator set everything up to present murder scenes to Battler that were logically consistent with the detailed magical narrative told to him earlier "for fun". There's also the problem with "fake" deaths that cannot be easily faked in other stories, such as Turn's first twilight.

So yeah, the theory that the stories reflect a murder "game" planned by Yasu, which makes pre-incident-writing considerably more viable, has a lot of things going for it, but also has its problems. Every "version" of this Halloween game that we are presented is in bad taste, but at least it allows an avenue for Yasu to have written the fictions pre-incident without being outright evil.

In any case, if these stories were written just for fun make-believe, you would still have to explain why they were put to sea.
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Old 2011-09-12, 15:58   Link #24357
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Who actually knows what the weather was like on Rokkenjima on that day?

Serious question. What witnesses do we have to the weather conditions? Kawabata brings people to the island on the 4th; it's threatening a storm but clear. He comes back on the 6th, it's clear again. Exactly how much rain there was on the ensuing days is left somewhat open. Even the message bottles sort of forget that it's supposed to be raining on the 5th. If it was. I don't know.

Actually, there is one person: Eva. But did Eva ever comment on the message bottles, or was she aware of them?

Anyway, we actually know only that the weather patterns in the stories are consistent with each other, which is fine. While I'm sure you could verify if they were wrong later, I'd think other factual errors like "Eva being dead" were more obvious than "it probably only rained for about 5 hours, according to the weather service."
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Old 2011-09-12, 16:13   Link #24358
Cao Ni Ma
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People could have back checked the weather of the day and confirmed that it didnt rain 2 days straight in that area so the concept of just raining a few hours would have been shot down and we would have known about it. A storm might not be such an eventful thing, but one that took place during what people though was an unfortunate event that took out nearly all of one the most influential families in the area might be more eventful.

I dont think Eva knew about the actual bottles but she should have known about the conspiracies that she was involved in the event. I like to imagine Eva turning off the TV the moment a piece about rokkenjima came out, or walking out of a conversation the moment it was mentioned. So knowing things like the bottle letters would be pretty hard, unless the police brought her in and showed her the letter they found.
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Old 2011-09-12, 16:16   Link #24359
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People could have back checked the weather of the day and confirmed that it didnt rain 2 days straight in that area so the concept of just raining a few hours would have been shot down and we would have known about.
Witch Hunters also knew Eva didn't die, yet this didn't seem to impact the apparent credibility of or interest in the message bottles either. The weather being slightly inaccurate would probably not be a significant problem.

It would also bolster the pre-event writing idea, since it's much more likely a person would guess the weather and be a bit wrong than write afterward and still screw it up. There would still be thematic reasons to do it, but it's not as strong.
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Old 2011-09-12, 16:25   Link #24360
Cao Ni Ma
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Sorry you replied before I updated it. There would be written evidence about the weather thanks to the event in Rokkenjima. News would have mentioned something like Eva taking refuge in a building for a day or two while the stormed passed. She had to wait till the boat got there. Meteorological data would have backed up her claim or else she would have been caught in a lie.

The second option is that there was little to no rain, given these conditions fishermen or some others would have seen the smoke and fire from the debris and would have gotten there quicker.
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