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Old 2009-10-11, 08:26   Link #2421
Jan-Poo
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I have this doubt that Kanon knew Battler since before 1986.

What makes me think this is their first encounter. Kanon acts in a very strange way, even for himself, in that situation. It just doesn't stick out very much because that's the first time we see Kanon and therefore we couldn't compare him with his usual self, plus Battler goes a long way to explain why Kanon is so shy, but imho that's just smoke in the eyes.

When I replayed that part the feeling that I got was as if Kanon was thinking: "you don't... remember me?" but maybe I'm just looking too much into it XD
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Old 2009-10-11, 08:30   Link #2422
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I have this doubt that Kanon knew Battler since before 1986.

What makes me think this is their first encounter. Kanon acts in a very strange way, even for himself, in that situation. It just doesn't stick out very much because that's the first time we see Kanon and therefore we couldn't compare him with his usual self, plus Battler goes a long way to explain why Kanon is so shy, but imho that's just smoke in the eyes.

When I replayed that part the feeling that I got was as if Kanon was thinking: "you don't... remember me?" but maybe I'm just looking too much into it XD
I knew it! Battler's a closet homosexual! I've cracked the case!
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Old 2009-10-11, 09:10   Link #2423
Nifty
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I have this doubt that Kanon knew Battler since before 1986.

What makes me think this is their first encounter. Kanon acts in a very strange way, even for himself, in that situation. It just doesn't stick out very much because that's the first time we see Kanon and therefore we couldn't compare him with his usual self, plus Battler goes a long way to explain why Kanon is so shy, but imho that's just smoke in the eyes.

When I replayed that part the feeling that I got was as if Kanon was thinking: "you don't... remember me?" but maybe I'm just looking too much into it XD
So I'm not the only one that got that feeling.
When you put it like that, I wouldn't be all too surprised if Battler's sin was related to Kanon instead of say, Shannon or Jessica.

Crack theory time (using softer blue because regular blue hurts my eyes)!

Battler made a promise to a young Kanon 6 years ago, perhaps something like 'I'll come and play with you!' or 'I'll get you out of here, and we can be brothers!' Kanon, being a lonely little kid (who seemed to finally find a friend since Shannon left the orphanage) took it to heart, and was hurt when Battler never came back.
The now hurt Kanon created an imaginary friend (Beatrice) using the legend of the witch as a base. That imaginary Beatrice became an imaginary enemy instead, becoming a personification of Kanon's self-loathing and torturing him from the inside. That 'Beatrice' is what he sees in EP2, a delusion basically.


Now how did that in any way affect the murders?
It didn't. However, it did provide an excellent opportunity for the real culprit to strike and use 'Beatrice' as a scapegoat.

...
Holy crap, I'm full of it.
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Old 2009-10-11, 09:12   Link #2424
Marion
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Originally Posted by Nifty View Post
So I'm not the only one that got that feeling.
When you put it like that, I wouldn't be all too surprised if Battler's sin was related to Kanon instead of say, Shannon or Jessica.

Crack theory time (using softer blue because regular blue hurts my eyes)!

Battler made a promise to a young Kanon 6 years ago, perhaps something like 'I'll come and play with you!' or 'I'll get you out of here, and we can be brothers!' Kanon, being a lonely little kid (who seemed to finally find a friend since Shannon left the orphanage) took it to heart, and was hurt when Battler never came back.
The now hurt Kanon created an imaginary friend (Beatrice) using the legend of the witch as a base. That imaginary Beatrice became an imaginary enemy instead, becoming a personification of Kanon's self-loathing and torturing him from the inside. That 'Beatrice' is what he sees in EP2, a delusion basically.


Now how did that in any way affect the murders?
It didn't. However, it did provide an excellent opportunity for the real culprit to strike and use 'Beatrice' as a scapegoat.

...
Holy crap, I'm full of it.
Kanon wasn't working for the Ushiromiya family until 1983 and Battler left in 1980, so the theory is impossible :P
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Old 2009-10-11, 09:19   Link #2425
Nifty
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Originally Posted by Marion View Post
Kanon wasn't working for the Ushiromiya family until 1983 and Battler left in 1980, so the theory is impossible :P
I know that. I probably should have mentioned that this was back when Kanon was still in the orphanage and this happened outside of Ushiromiya property. There's nothing that denies that Battler didn't meet him in a park or something similar.

Last edited by Nifty; 2009-10-11 at 09:29.
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Old 2009-10-11, 09:24   Link #2426
Kitsu
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Quote:
I have this doubt that Kanon knew Battler since before 1986.

What makes me think this is their first encounter. Kanon acts in a very strange way, even for himself, in that situation. It just doesn't stick out very much because that's the first time we see Kanon and therefore we couldn't compare him with his usual self, plus Battler goes a long way to explain why Kanon is so shy, but imho that's just smoke in the eyes.

When I replayed that part the feeling that I got was as if Kanon was thinking: "you don't... remember me?" but maybe I'm just looking too much into it XD
I got the friggin same feeling!


Also I think that there has to besome connection to Battler...I mean Battler seems to directly want Kanon as a friend. He directly sees someone as silent and well Kanon-like as sympathic and "friend-worthy" I know that Battler may be just nice...but I'm nice as well and don't go around saying "Hey, emo! Let's be friends" Even if Battler doesn't remember him clearly there something which connects them. But maybe that's just me...
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Old 2009-10-11, 09:33   Link #2427
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Kanon was in an orphanage at an unknown place and Battler was somewhere. Honestly them just 'bumping into each other in a park' doesn't exactly sound likely, considering Kanon's situation especially.
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Old 2009-10-11, 09:34   Link #2428
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Kanon was in an orphanage at an unknown place and Battler was somewhere. Honestly them just 'bumping into each other in a park' doesn't exactly sound likely, considering Kanon's situation especially.
Battler actually comes from that orphanage as well and was adopted
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Old 2009-10-11, 09:43   Link #2429
Marion
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What. Okay we know Asumu isn't his mother, but that doesn't mean Rudolf isn't his father. Beatrice's argument was that Battler wasn't Kinzo's grandson and couldn't play the game for that reason. But because Beato refused to repeat 'Battler is not Ushiromiya Kinzo's grandson' that means he is blood-related to the Ushiromiya family, through Rudolf. I mean honestly I think this theory is a little far-fetched, because I highly doubt Ryukishi is going to throw on us that Rudolf isn't his father either.
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Old 2009-10-11, 09:45   Link #2430
Nifty
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marion View Post
Kanon was in an orphanage at an unknown place and Battler was somewhere. Honestly them just 'bumping into each other in a park' doesn't exactly sound likely, considering Kanon's situation especially.
In my defense I did say it was a crack theory
The way I imagine it could have happened was that Battler ran away after an argument with Rudolf and got lost. He stumbled upon the orphanage and called his grandparents to pick him up from there since he needed a phone. He was invited to stay (perhaps after finding out that he was Kinzo's grandson) and while he waited, he could have found Kanon sulking in a corner and made small talk with him.
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Old 2009-10-11, 09:50   Link #2431
Kitsu
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Just wanted to see your reaction.
I don't think this theory is correct or something you just shouldn't say some things are impossible. Because
Quote:
Kanon was in an orphanage at an unknown place and Battler was somewhere.
kinda mean
Kanon was at unknown place and Battler was at to us unknown place. We don't know where the orphanage is and where Battler used to live. Also Kanon must have been at the orphanage with six that doesn't mean he was there with five. The chance of them that the could have met somewhere isn't so unlikely. YOu know some say it was by chance some say it was fate xD
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Old 2009-10-11, 09:52   Link #2432
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Battler was with his maternal grandparents. When I meant by 'somewhere' is that we don't know where exactly Battler's grandparents live is all. I doubt they just dropped him off in an orphanage though
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Old 2009-10-11, 09:54   Link #2433
Kitsu
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Battler was with his maternal grandparents. When I meant by 'somewhere' is that we don't know where exactly Battler's grandparents live is all. I doubt they just dropped him off in an orphanage though
He wasn't with his grandparents he was with Rudolph and Asumo at first remember he only went to them with 12.
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Old 2009-10-11, 10:04   Link #2434
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He wasn't with his grandparents he was with Rudolph and Asumo at first remember he only went to them with 12.
Yeah that's what I meant :P
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Old 2009-10-11, 10:33   Link #2435
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lol guys how did we go from Hideyoshi's death rate to Kanon and Battler's relationship

Kanon and Battler knowing each other...looking back at Kanon's introduction, yeah, he did seem to be acting a bit weirder than usual. Like Jan-Poo said, it was his first appearance, so it was easily overlooked. I have to admit, Kanon and Battler knowing each other isn't that farfetched.

...Maybe he knows something about Battler we don't...? Like, his sin? Could the servants have some sort of connection to that, or his birth or something? We don't know that much about the orphanage...
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Old 2009-10-11, 15:10   Link #2436
Jan-Poo
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Wow so there are many people that share the same impression XD

I can't help seeing a connection between Kanon's disappointment of not being recognized and Beatrice's disappointment of Battler not remembering his sin.

This is why regardless of all that whole mass of hints that point to Jessica or Shannon as Beatrice I can't rule out Kanon yet.

It is true that Kanon supposedly has only been working for the Ushiromiya's for the last 3 years. But what if he was known as a different person before? Or what if he's been lurking there since a long time, protected by Shannon with Kumasawa's help?

We still don't know which is his real name.


I can't rule out the orphanage theory either. Even if he's Rudolf's son, Rudolf was a well known womanizer. It wouldn't be too strange if Battler was born without Rudolf knowing anything, maybe Battler's real mother had some very strange circumstances. Then Rudolf somehow came to know the truth and took Battler from the orphanage raising him as if he was Asumu's son.

I'm just saying.... there can't be various possibilities ^^;
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Old 2009-10-11, 15:50   Link #2437
mizou
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what the signification of kanon saying ' even I ... ' in Ep1
http://www.onemanga.com/Umineko_no_Naku_Koro_ni/2/21/
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Old 2009-10-11, 15:54   Link #2438
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I always assumed that he meant to say "even I... have pride".
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Old 2009-10-11, 16:48   Link #2439
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Maybe it's just me, but I thought the complete opposite in that Kanon's behavior there was due to the fact that he had never seen Battler before. I can't look it up (curse my computer for crashing and destroying all my Umineko files in the process) but I viewed it as that Kanon was never told that Battler would appear and thus was on his guard against this stranger, as Kanon is obviously a secretive person and would obviously be on guard against a stranger.
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Old 2009-10-11, 18:18   Link #2440
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Originally Posted by mizou View Post
what the signification of kanon saying ' even I ... ' in Ep1
http://www.onemanga.com/Umineko_no_Naku_Koro_ni/2/21/
Was it ever mentioned if Ryukishi is supervising the manga as well? How would they know which foreshadowing hints of the culprit to add?
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